Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

Ike's Nair is pretty bad when dealing with fireballs. Have you tried using it?

Roy is prob. harder because his Neutral is better vs. Mario.

Ike nairing fireballs is pretty dumb. Ftilt/jab would be a way better option

 

[Boiko]

Ike nairing fireballs is pretty dumb. Ftilt/jab would be a way better option

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wouldn't grounded attacks clank whereas an aerial would just continue right through the fireball?

 

[MLGF]

Doesn't Mario's fireballs act as an effective counter against Ike's QD?

his most frequent Ike experience is me and I'm not a trash player so I don't quick draw outside of punish extensions lmao.

The less Ike does qd, the easier the matchup is lmao. Although Mario does gimp Ike pretty bad so I wouldn't say it's a one sided matchup or anything. Mario just can't get in.

 

[Binary Clone]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wouldn't grounded attacks clank whereas an aerial would just continue right through the fireball?

This is true. That means that ftilt would be a fairly quick and noncommital way of getting rid of the fireball so long as you actually hit it, since the ftilt animation would be cancelled by the clank and the startup is pretty fast. Nair would mean Ike has to commit to the whole aerial and the short hop, but you can autocancel nair pretty easily, which mitigates that problem. If Mario is approaching behind the fireball, though, you'll likely get hit before you touch the ground or get out anything defensive.

 

[MLGF]

Lol I just move around fireballs, weave around it and stuff

I don't think it'd be smart to commit to throwing out a move to stop them when there are quicker and less committal options in most situations lol, I mean there's always times to throw hit boxes but they aren't too frequent IMO

 

[Soft Serve]

On lucas MU's:
I think lucas/diddy is effectively even, slightly lucas's favor (55/45 probably, stage dependant as always). It's a hard MU on both sides. I think lucas win easily if diddy cant pull a banana out, but Diddy wins neutral decently hard with banana in hand. Diddy doesn't care about pf freeze if he has banana, because he can safely go for the power shield and then glide toss OoS either way (glide back throw down to get out and control some space right in front, also beats dacus/dash attack fishing. Back throw forward beats grab attempts and is safe to whiff punish DJC fairs). Diddy also out dash dances lucas, diddy's mobility is rediculous when the opponent isn't in a position to pressure. I'm pretty sure there's a range where diddy can focus on that's outside of where pk freeze would hard to react to, but outside of DJC fair and magnet approaches, and diddy can double bair or bair >wl to stuff out hasty approaches and stay safe. Punish wise is rediculous on both sides, if diddy gets hit by magnet it should be a stock, and if lucas gets grabbed at low% it should be at least 50% and if lucas gets put in a tech chase situation it's not hard to covert it into a stock, diddy is great at covering lucas's recovery.

I give the edge to lucas because diddy only wins once he gets the banana out and in control. Lucas with a banana is also rediculous, he can still do mag>air mag pressure and if the lucas has good item play, magnet>airmag DJC z drop >air mag hold is crazy good pressure (DJC z drop is very positive on shield). Also DACITs are crazy good.


Idk about lucas/fox but neon always said it was lucas's worst MU.

 

[Hylian]

1.) Yes, it does. He's since optimized it to be quite a bit faster. He's gotten it on me, at low percentages, where I mashed my brains out. It's guaranteed, period. The only part of it that's not is the dair, because it can be SDI'd.

2.) Nana is not nearly as easy to kill as she is in melee. Popo can go significantly deeper to bring her back. Plus, she'll actually use recovery moves to stall her recovery even longer. Can she still be easy to kill sometimes? Sure. Is she always easy to kill like Samus down smash at the ledge at zero? No.

3.) I'm not sure what match ups you find horrible. I know they don't have an easy time with Tink, Samus, Fox, Peach.. But they stil have a solid neutral game, great mobility, strong kill options, disjoint, and a great recovery to boot. Oh yeah, and a a zero to death anywhere on the stage.

I understand ICs plenty. Phresh is part of NYC who I play with all of the time. Also, GP, my main training partner is another ICs player. I've seen maybe two to three instances where the pivot glitch has come into play. I've seen way more infinite handoffs than that.

No..it's not guaranteed..you are just bad at mashing. I've been doing that exact chaingrab since 2008...I know plenty about it and I've tested it extensively. Have you tested it? Probably not. The only version of that chaingrab that works is when you pivot at the end to cut the turn around frames, and even then if you're a super fast masher(esam/ally/reflex) tier then you get out since you can't buffer the throw in this game like you could in brawl.

You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the glitch. You see "instances" of it coming it to play...but most IC's try to play around it and what really hurts them is what the glitch prevents you from doing. You don't "see" it affecting them because people try to play around it. You don't see it stop IC's from doing wavedash jab -> turnaround grab/dsmash which is an integral part of their neutral/approach game and a crutch in melee. You just see them do like wavedash back dsmash instead because they don't have the option to do turn around jab. IC's do many nonoptimal things just to cope with the glitch.

I'm not sure where I said that nana is as easy to kill as she is in melee. I think she's easy to kill in PM because I understand her AI. She doesn't die to you hitting her off the stage with one move, but she still dies to you separating climbers and abusing her run back to popo AI.

Playing against IC's often does not mean you understand them.

 

[Boiko]

No..it's not guaranteed..you are just bad at mashing. I've been doing that exact chaingrab since 2008...I know plenty about it and I've tested it extensively. Have you tested it? Probably not. The only version of that chaingrab that works is when you pivot at the end to cut the turn around frames, and even then if you're a super fast masher(esam/ally/reflex) tier then you get out since you can't buffer the throw in this game like you could in brawl.

Yes, we've tested it.
What you're basically saying is that myself, darkblues, gallo, guru, numerous other members of FS, and other high level NYC players are all just mashing too slowly? No, that's not the case. Maybe YOU'RE just too slow with the grab, and maybe in that specific gfy that I linked, Phresh isn't using the handoff optimally. But from playing him frequently and recently, and trying and testing numerous escape methods, it's an infinite.

You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the glitch. You see "instances" of it coming it to play...but most IC's try to play around it and what really hurts them is what the glitch prevents you from doing. You don't "see" it affecting them because people try to play around it. You don't see it stop IC's from doing wavedash jab -> turnaround grab/dsmash which is an integral part of their neutral/approach game and a crutch in melee. You just see them do like wavedash back dsmash instead because they don't have the option to do turn around jab. IC's do many nonoptimal things just to cope with the glitch.

Yeah, I do this thing where I ask the players how substantially the glitch hinders their game. The general consensus is not that much. I get what you're saying. They're working around it midgame so one won't specifically notice the glitch occurring. But that's why I just talk to them and they tell me. Everyone plays differently, and maybe you're idea of optimal in PM isn't exactly optimal. I'm not saying mine is, but there are numerous schools of thought here.

Playing against IC's often does not mean you understand them.

You're right, it doesn't. But I understand the character just fine.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is basically what I'm driving at, coupled to the fact that Mewtwo has not only a relatively high skill floor, but arguably one of the highest skill ceilings in the game (Odds alluded to a technical aspect of this above). I have a history of saying that Mewtwo is really good even in 3.5, but also that Mewtwo players have left so much of the character untapped. Partly because of "playing it safe" as you said, partly because some of his execution barriers are incredibly, even impractically high. Partly because simple but powerful options go underused, like your down-b and Shadow Ball examples.

Effective pressure is definitely a target for long-term improvement within the Mewtwo community. I was studying characters like Luigi, other DJCers, etc near the end of 3.02 to gain outside perspective and encouraged other Mewtwo players to do the same. That exercise continues to bear fruit in 3.5.

Good stuff, keep it up.
Given how every character has so much work to do that it's silly, people playing Mewtwo in general today will look VERY silly when watched again in a couple years.
Stoked.

Luigi's aerials will make the MU easier on him(Some of his aerials have large hitboxes), and is way floatier so combos may stop working earlier than it would on mario.

Alot of the more top tier characters can deal with pills. Falcon is a good example. Falcon can weave pills on his speed alone. That + his nair makes keeping falcon away with pills difficult for mario.

It's more Luigi's ground-game that allows him to deal with FE characters, where his aerial game is pretty meh for it.
Him being floaty is a downside if anything, sure it might not be easy to combo forever, but he can be juggled longer than forever in exchange.
Hope that makes sense.

Pills were an example of something that Mario could do to centralize a match-up, not something he uses for all match-ups, that's kind of the point. Something for everything. Also, you shouldn't ever want to keep Falcon away, playing a more DD/WD ground game will be more effective both offensive AND defensively, for the same reason as anyone like Sheik will get hurt if she tries using needles or aerials in the match-up.
Dash + Shield with some littered pokes and grbs wins over all in most cases/match-ups.

There were some other points early that I think we were just on different points, because what you said didn't address any of the reasons I mentioned what I said. lol
We're good at this so far.

Im going to try to explain this.
Mario is a good well rounded solid character BUT hes doesn't dominate in one specific aspect of the game like:
-Yes mario has a strong projectile, but that doesn't mean he is a strong zoner like Samus and Diddy; Nor does he control neutral like lets say fox, falco, Diddy again, TL.(these are charaacters with overwhelming projectile games)
-Yes mario has good combo's and CG's and hit confirms, pokes etc, BUT he does not have an absurd combo/punish game like fox, lucario.
-Yes mario has good speed but he cant play a strong keep away game or bait and punish game that is -based soley of his speed like fox, sonic, falcon.

Mario is decent at everything, but for everything that he is good at you can find another character with a similar quality, or is just straight up better at it(along with other attributes that might make them all around better characters like better speed.) Alot of Characters that people agree are top tier, excel at a certain aspects of the game. This allows them to force others to play by their rules. I.e DIddy in Neutral, Fox in rushdown/pressure(or everything really).

Good good. I consider Mario good enough at each of those things to BE up there with them. The same reasons some say Sheik or Roy are, their 'overwhelming strength' is being solid. If you can see THAT as an aspect of the game, then maybe that'll make more sense.

I actually have read old mario vs marth stuff you should check out the new mario MU thread.

If you understand ganons potential i don''t get how you could see him as low tier. We disagree it happens

That match-up has been talked to death, checked it out there and it's basically the same stuff that has been discussed here too. Even, or on either side, at least it's generally considered something that either character can win.
It's also funny how Marth's say it's in Mario's favor in PM.
Won't go into this though. Obviously everyone has enough to 'read' on it. haha

Every character has a lot of potential. Ganon's tricks brought him out of a gutter, he finally has some.
Haha, yes, disagreeing is fun.

again condescending if not straight out dismissive. I get i may be newer to smashboards compared to some of you guys, but please don't look at my post number, or how many years ive been a member, as some sort of measure to assess how accurate my arguements/statements are. If im wrong say it, don't just dismiss me because "i'm new....i must be". Even if i bring up old arguments, that doesn't suddenly make them not relevant. And if we are going to go there, you admit to not being so good yourself. You'd think you would be a bit more humble but w.e. Please come with actual counter arguements instead of "thats wrong" or "that was discussed". Especially don't say things like that wrong without having an actually argument as to why.

Wasn't meant to be, and I still don't see how it is. But w/e, thanks for pointing it out.
I never noticed your post count... or that stuff.
Welcome to the forums! I guess.
I actually think this will make more sense to me now as far as where you're coming from.
As mentioned before, it's more when topics like controlling a stage are brought up as a bonus for Ganon, when that's literally all he's ever been good at. Nothing else. All of the intricacies of that are pretty observable, and have been since the dawn of Melee, AND PM.
The additions of things like floating and choking and DACUS and quicker attacks in various places and N-Air coverage and faster Kiiieecks are when makes the difference in PM.
I kind of went over this in my initial tier-list post, but this is the first time that he's ever really had enough to GET SOMETHING from this space-taking that he's always been good at.
If you think it's enough to basically get free-stuff whenever he gets an opponent cornered, then sweet. I still think he has to make decent risk-vs-reward attempts to get-in. He's still slow. That's what it comes down to, and why he's always been garbage, but it's working out at last.
That's what I meant by all of that, hope that makes sense.

Lets focus on mario then . There are still characters that are just bettter than him. With characters like Fox, lucario, roy, M2, diddy, TL running around it funny how you placed mario 5th on your tier list.

IF you put up this tier list to be criticized then you shouldnt be surprised if people disagree with your placements. Honestly alot of your placements are questionable and lack an actually argument for why you put them there(i.e wolf). You would think with all your experience you would know better than to do that. Or at least have a better way of presenting your arguements because you didnt do the best job.

Even when you want to agree to disagree you resort to being condescending

There was no surprise (seriously, as mentioned before, you should've seen my other lists, this kind of 'wtf is this list' is nothing). This is where decent discussion comes from after all.
I didn't really present arguments for them being there, but more just an overlaying re-cap of how they work.
Make sense now? haha
An actual argument would take pages. (example: What happened after)
Didn't mean for that, was just being (as you say) honestly pointing out my interpretation of the situation. If you're taking that offensively, then that's on you. :/

As far as Diddy, Roy, TL, Fox even, I consider them to have things that are mildly anti-them in the game. Mario may not have that easy-route that allows him to play the same game-plan against everyone, but he can always get something to work. Think Sheik, but less clobber-or-get-clobbered.
That's about all that I'll mention about him, as for the most part, everything in that Mario thread I linked basically sums up what Mario does. I simply understand it to be good enough to warrant beating almost everyone in the game, with VERY FEW exceptions, and those few exceptions are BARELY exceptions.

Edit: Spelling and work mix-ups.

 

[Hylian]

I've seen like 20+ gifs of him doing that chaingrab and every single one was escapable. It's certainly possible none of you know how to mash, were any of you brawl players? There are many people who suck at mashing . Sorry, it is very escapable through mashing, go test it in frame advance. The dash, turnaround, dash back grab wastes way too many idle frames. It's hilarious that you think I'm doing it too slowly, you know I pretty much discovered infinite hand-offs in brawl right? I'm extremely familiar with all of their hand-off variations and well practiced in all of them. This one was one of the first that people did because it was easy, and it phased out because it was very mashable. It's even easier to mash in PM because you can set the dpad to something other than taunt and get crazy input per frame mashes.

Do IC players really tell you the glitch doesn't hinder their game that much? I've never heard a single IC player say that..anywhere. Including Phresh. The glitch is horrible.

 

[Nausicaa]

I can't even WD F-Tilt when I want to, and sometimes I REALLY want to.
The glitch is real.

 

[steelguttey]

phresh has said that the glitch is frustrating but

mashing just seems to be a thing that.. just shouldnt be a skill thats needed for smash. there has to be a more intuitive way of escaping grabs that isnt tailored for 6 year olds

 

[Boiko]

I've seen like 20+ gifs of him doing that chaingrab and every single one was escapable. It's certainly possible none of you know how to mash, were any of you brawl players? There are many people who suck at mashing . Sorry, it is very escapable through mashing, go test it in frame advance. The dash, turnaround, dash back grab wastes way too many idle frames. It's hilarious that you think I'm doing it too slowly, you know I pretty much discovered infinite hand-offs in brawl right? I'm extremely familiar with all of their hand-off variations and well practiced in all of them. This one was one of the first that people did because it was easy, and it phased out because it was very mashable. It's even easier to mash in PM because you can set the dpad to something other than taunt and get crazy input per frame mashes.

Do IC players really tell you the glitch doesn't hinder their game that much? I've never heard a single IC player say that..anywhere. Including Phresh. The glitch is horrible.

At the end of the day, it's a moot point. From what I understand, the pivot glitch is fixed in 3.6 and the hand off is removed. So this argument becomes annulled at 3.6's release.

 

[Hylian]

Both of those things are true yes. The pivot glitch/infinite were fixed pretty much as soon as they were discovered.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

@ Nausicaa I just didn't appreciate your tone(or typed tone.....the internet is a weird place and sometimes words can be misinterpreted as something its not), not mad or offended or anything. I agree with you on some points and definitely disagree on others. I agree we missed each others point at times sure......still don't think mario 'top' tier. At this point i don't care lmfaoo. i just disagree.

 

[nimigoha]

Both of those things are true yes. The pivot glitch/infinite were fixed pretty much as soon as they were discovered.

Not to take a jab... But how did the glitch slip into 3.5? I'd assume it's because you're like the only PMDT member who does anything with ICs (that I've seen) but even then it seems like something you'd immediately see after playing the character for 20 seconds.

I'd guess that it's because of rushing to release that night and changes in something distorted data or something?

 

[Hylian]

Not to take a jab... But how did the glitch slip into 3.5? I'd assume it's because you're like the only PMDT member who does anything with ICs (that I've seen) but even then it seems like something you'd immediately see after playing the character for 20 seconds.

I'd guess that it's because of rushing to release that night and changes in something distorted data or something?

It's because I spent a TON of time testing every single hand-off they had on characters for some release point bugs that got fixed. I finished with like 3 days before release and then was like "yep IC's are all good to go!". And then someone made a change to them and didn't post in the thread about it so I never tested them again, and the change caused the glitch to happen. The very first time I started the game in 3.6 I went to the BR rather upset considering a change was made without my knowledge right before release, I didn't have the chance to catch it.

 

[D e l t a]

On lucas MU's:
I think lucas/diddy is effectively even, slightly lucas's favor (55/45 probably, stage dependant as always). It's a hard MU on both sides. I think lucas win easily if diddy cant pull a banana out, but Diddy wins neutral decently hard with banana in hand.

Some interesting points to note. When I go back to Lucas I'll definitely keep up pressure and be sure not to let Diddy get out a banana.

Side note: you don't have to power shield PKF. A regular shield -> banana toss within 5 or so frames of hitting shield will typically hit Lucas if he's in range.

Also DACITs are crazy good.

How do?

Idk about lucas/fox but neon always said it was lucas's worst MU.

As much as I love and respect Neon, his opinions can be skewed at times. I've studied Fox for countless hours and learned how to play the MU very well. Learning the entire combo tree at all %'s, studying most angles Fox recovers at & how to cover most of those options, and the neutral game as a whole. His main issue is securing quick & efficient stocks on characters while avoiding their kill options. Ledge guarding is a weakness of most Lucas players with little exception to Neon. In the Lucas v Spacies MU is primarily about throwing the other off-stage and getting gimps.

Fox surprisingly has a harder time securing kills on Lucas than most people think. Light Nair -> Upsmash is about the only guarantee to kill Lucas around 90-110%. Everything else has to come from Uthrow -> Bair (guaranteed past 135% on most stages) or ledge guards & gimps. Getting a grab on Lucas is hard for characters if he is spaced out well. Most of Lucas' attacks can be spaced just outside of a typical grab range.

As I've stated before, Fox's Nair goes thru PKF which is the main advantage for Fox. In this MU, using little PKF and more dash attacks / mag combos will be the best bet to victory.

 

[Nausicaa]

@ AssTAStic_ACA For sure. I think we're on the same page with all of that, too. Obviously it just takes a lot of words just to understand that we are.
I tend to approach these kinds of things more along the lines of... What can characters do to each other, and how do each of them deal with the stuff each other throw at each other.
Then it's all up to each person when it comes to their idea on who beats who, and why, etc. Then discussion unfolding on how they can deal with that from both sides.
You know, the layers. Which kind of means that we haven't really agreed or disagreed with each other outside of arbitrary semantics (Mario's 'position' on a list) that literally mean NOTHING. Everything else, we both get it.
AKA, that's all communication is, but internetz


Edit: Lucas's Z-Air and F-Tilt mess with Fox's neutral pretty hard too.
WD F-Tilt knocks down crazy early, and covers essentially the entire space between safe-laser distance and any distance Fox can threaten a N-Air/Usmash/etc. Get a touch more %, and Z-Air functions that way off any Magnet > Fade situations that would usually just be a WD to reset position or aerial for pressure. More options, that completely crush Fox's.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Thank God you're back, @ Nausicaa

I think you're completely insane, but it seems like your opinions are crazy because you're intelligent, so you see the system of character interactions differently from the rest of us who've actually been mired in the muck of the current metagame. You're underrating fox absolutely criminally, but I feel your pain re: everyone else sleeping on characters that you know are silly strong.

 

[D e l t a]

Btw, please pass this on to anybody you know that has trouble with Lucas. Here's all the ways to defeat his "oh my god these options and combos are so good." I always hear things like what Softie said about magnet leading to a stock. Lucas' moves are actually bad on paper. Most times, people miss the DI on his attacks which leads to death because of this. There are DI traps mixing up aerials with magnet and 6-8 different ways to lead into a guaranteed DACUS, but here's the ways to minimize getting combo'd to death.

***General rule DI rule of thumb: behind (and slightly up at times)***

Spoiler

Dthrow gets terrible followups with no DI at low % on everybody except fast fallers (always DI it straight behind in this case). After 70% up and behind is best for most of the cast. DI behind at low % with most weights, and no DI for fast fallers will lead into a gimmicky chain grab.

Magnet: the defining move of Lucas. It can be CC'd at all %'s and acts similar to shine when CC'd (including a ground tech window). Furthermore, if Lucas always WD back after magnet, you can CC magnet and getup attack every time. If you aren't able to CC, refer to general DI rule of thumb. Lucas only gets WD back followups from no DI or any DI above horiztonal on the analog stick except for if you're DI'ing away from Lucas (the direction he's facing when using magnet).

Fair: Sourspot (non-electric hit)- DI this away at low %. Lucas can use Fair/Nair to re-grab at low %, so try to DI down as well and buffer a spot dodge / roll / fast grounded attack. When at high %, DI in, as he gets terrible finishers from weak Fair DI'd in.
The sweetspot (electric tip of the hitbox) is best at low % (0-30) but terrible to combo from at higher %'s (above 70%). DI his sweetspot IN at low % and no DI / away at high %. With the super sweetspot drastically reduced in 3.5, Lucas rarely gets kills from Fair.

PKF- can be CC'd by floaties up past 100%. Learn how they like to approach and counter the followup from PKF. If they go for DACUS, you can hit them out of startup most times. Simply fast fall -> shield or throw out a hitbox / jump / air dodge. It's also easy to shield & clank if you're grounded. The PKF end lag is atrocious and doesn't auto cancel anymore, which makes Lucas' projectile terrible in neutral against knowledgable players.

Uair- best DI'd in to get the reverse hitbox that sends you backwards. If you get hit by the forward part of his head, it's still sometimes possible to SDI backwards and make followups difficult after that. DI the forward most hitbox up and away (direction Lucas is facing).

Everything else is pretty easy to pick up on like SDI'ing Dair left / right and DI'ing the 3rd hit left/right to avoid easy Upsmash followups.

EDIT: spoiler tag to reduce clutter

 

[Nausicaa]

I can accept that. lol
I'm toning it down from my old-self though. Every year I get a little bit softer with the insanity, vocabulary, and concepts like mental disposition being a focal point, because it REALLY doesn't fly well in the face of mass-population when everyone is playing themselves into fluency rather than becoming fluent to play.

**** even after typing this (while talking to a friend irl about similar concepts at the same time too) it's of course obvious I still need toning-down.

Boozer haz UpB
Lots of range. edgegame good.
Take space
Can jump and stuff now
Much fun, very better



Edit: Lucas's F-Smash is the easiest F-Smash to line up in the game (ok, maybe tied with like Falco/Mario/Roy/Kirby/etc)
And it kills Fox at like 30% because of it's angle
What you talkin bout Lucas don't got kills off magnets.
Jkz but seriously.

 

[nimigoha]

It's because I spent a TON of time testing every single hand-off they had on characters for some release point bugs that got fixed. I finished with like 3 days before release and then was like "yep IC's are all good to go!". And then someone made a change to them and didn't post in the thread about it so I never tested them again, and the change caused the glitch to happen. The very first time I started the game in 3.6 I went to the BR rather upset considering a change was made without my knowledge right before release, I didn't have the chance to catch it.

That sounds really frustrating for you

All that time you must have spent on 3.5 ICs and one tiny change made them incredibly annoying to play as for 6+ months.

I'm surprised there wasn't a 3.51 that fixed it though. Not to blow things out of proportion and I'm making it sound worse than it is, but it could have saved the character.

Maybe there weren't enough needed 'fixes' and so pushing a new release to fix just one character was thought to be overkill.

It makes 3.6 all the more enticing though.

 

[Hylian]

Oh no, I tried to get a 3.51 one out as well. People shoved me around different directions telling me to ask different people, and then telling me things would be done in a couple of weeks and to just wait...and I told them it would take months and people just said I was wrong. It's been 6 months since then and I've pretty much quit PM over it. I don't even play the game anymore I just play melee and then will enter PM if it's at a tournament. It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening.

 

[D e l t a]

Lucas's F-Smash is the easiest F-Smash to line up in the game (ok, maybe tied with like Falco/Mario/Roy/Kirby/etc)
And it kills Fox at like 30% because of it's angle
What you talkin bout Lucas don't got kills off magnets.
Jkz but seriously.

If you don't DI his Dthrow or Fair strings correctly and get hit by the tiny hitbox that is his Down Air, then sure, Fsmash is super free. Or if for some dumb reason you don't counter the 20 frame startup on DJC PKF when they're in your face and you let the PKF pop you up, most free followup ever.

Fsmash kills Fox after about 90% from center of FD. I've hit him with that move during training enough times to know for sure. And that's with CPU DI. Good DI is more like 110% IMO. Now Downsmash on the other hand kills Spacies under 100% on basically every stage, and about 80% on FD.

Magnets can be CC'd almost all the time or DI'd down and are impossible to followup. Ever tried playing Lucas against some kid that always CC's everything? I have. I'll just keep using spaced out PKF and repeated Nair/Dairs or grabs at that point. Magnet does nothing against constant crouch canceling.
Credibility: fighting bowser, mew2, and Roy a lot.

==

Edit: I wish PMBR would take the communities input and not make drastic changes that ignore most of what the knowledgable and insightful players have to say. Also, I have a good feeling about v4.1 anybody else?

 

[Nausicaa]

If you don't DI his Dthrow or Fair strings correctly and get hit by the tiny hitbox that is his Down Air, then sure, Fsmash is super free. Or if for some dumb reason you don't counter the 20 frame startup on DJC PKF when they're in your face and you let the PKF pop you up, most free followup ever.

Tech-chase, D-tilt, Z-air, D-air, F-air, U-air, some grabs, dash attack, literally ANYTHING that happens between 30% and 100%, and you have a chance to F-Smash (it's a LOT of chances), that's a dead Fox. Not talking instant-blast-zone, but he's still dead.
You're taking that way too certainty-combos and reads. The move is fast, has good range, and Lucas can place it anywhere with his simply bonkers DD/WD game, and almost anything he clips someone with while not Shielding/CCing, he can link it from. He's also safe doing anything like that against Shields/CCs because nothing he has is overly committing, and shouldn't be getting punished for all of those 'clipping' moves as such, which are always threatening because they could all lead to an F-Smash off anything that makes them have to tech or knocks them down, and they don't get the exact DI needed to avoid it. Move, by, move.

But yes, both free-stuff for Lucas and things that hurt Lucas exist. Glad you mentioned them so I wouldn't have to.

Thank God you're back, @ Nausicaa

I think you're completely insane, but it seems like your opinions are crazy because you're intelligent, so you see the system of character interactions differently from the rest of us who've actually been mired in the muck of the current metagame. You're underrating fox absolutely criminally, but I feel your pain re: everyone else sleeping on characters that you know are silly strong.

@ Frost | Odds
PS: You've always be smurt, but the simple way you described that difference (the muck and the watcher) is a good testament to what YOU see. As most can't pick up on that easily, let alone understand and articulate it that way.

I still get random messages from some of the worlds top players (VERY randomly, can't escape the community when it leaks into fb/emails and I don't even play the game anymore really), asking about random junk, usually about seeing the game certain ways etc.
And I'm not sure ANY OF THEM know why. Where as you just pointed out something that would make a lot of sense for them, and we haven't even said much to each other directly.



Other point.
I still don't like Ice-Samus.
Is there any signs of Samus players making use of switching between the 2 version quite frequently mid-match?
The only way I can see it coming into play often (even against floaties, which tends to be the argument for when it's better) is on something like a quick ledge-cancelled taunt to switch to the F-Air for an edge-guard, or an U-Smash for a stock/combo, and switching back to Fire-Samus as soon as possible.

 

[D e l t a]

Like I said, only if the enemy doesn't DI the moves correctly. I like doing guaranteed followups while understanding there are realistic followups like missed DI on Fair / Dthrow.
Dtilt & Zair don't get practical followups, especially not on Fox. They will only knock him into the ground.
Uair at most of those %'s and dash attack until 60 are the only 2 moves that are really hard to DI out and escape the Fsmash followup. Everything else is easy to DI out of, especially magnet.

~Random thoughts~
Fighting Lucas is like a hybrid Fox / Marth / Falco. His upthrow & Uair have followups akin to Marth. Strong Upsmash & certain guarantees into it like Fox. Semi-decent projectile & controls space well. Overall good aerials.

 

[Chevy]

Other point.
I still don't like Ice-Samus.
Is there any signs of Samus players making use of switching between the 2 version quite frequently mid-match?
The only way I can see it coming into play often (even against floaties, which tends to be the argument for when it's better) is on something like a quick ledge-cancelled taunt to switch to the F-Air for an edge-guard, or an U-Smash for a stock/combo, and switching back to Fire-Samus as soon as possible.

Against some characters I'll taunt cancel to ice at kill percents, but usually it's just off of the respawn platform to secure a quick kill then back to fire. D-tilt and f-smash are too bad to stay ice in non-hyper-floaty matchups right now.

EDIT: Taunt-cancelling mid-combo is one of the countless cute things I need to work into my play. I could definitely see it being at least marginally useful in the future(especially if Samus ever gets another decent move in Ice). Ending a combo with taunt cancel f-air when she doesn't quite have the range for anything else seems good, if a little positionally dependent.

 

[PlateProp]

Oh no, I tried to get a 3.51 one out as well. People shoved me around different directions telling me to ask different people, and then telling me things would be done in a couple of weeks and to just wait...and I told them it would take months and people just said I was wrong. It's been 6 months since then and I've pretty much quit PM over it. I don't even play the game anymore I just play melee and then will enter PM if it's at a tournament. It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening.

Rogue Hylian

Releases 3.51 IC's to the public, banished to the dark world by rest of PMDT, comes back as sepia Ganon

 

[eideeiit]

You can count on the Squirtle main (and me I guess) to put a halt to the actual discussion in the tier list thread??!!

What is this sorcery?

Also, I've come to realize I am a ****poster at heart, despite all my efforts of not falling into that slippery slope of like-addictions and reaction gifs.

I must go. The PMS is calling

.
.
.

I'm sorry. I let my true nature get the better of me for a second there.

I just wanted to say I kind of agree with Nausicaa's placing of Mewtwo. And I never even play against one. Take that however you wish. The things I've felt to be and heard people call extremely good but also extremely difficult are so numerous. The two things on that list that I can with completele certainty call BS on are Sheik and Fox being that low. I must apoligize again. It is nearly 1 am and I'm sleepy. Hopefully I'll remember to go through the data on a later date. Who knows, perhaps actually getting to know what I'm talking about will change my mind.

 

[Ripple]

I beat Axe and JZ last weekend, discuss DDD

 

[steelguttey]

i'll start the discussion

 

[Soft Serve]

I beat Axe and JZ last weekend, discuss DDD

ooze is obviously broken. DDD/Ivy is 70/30 MU, unwinnable for ivy.

DDD ness is horrible for ddd tho.

(I have no idea who axe went, normally Im stream monster ing when he is up but I missed it)

DDD is best character, followed by lucas and m2. Spacies mid tier at best

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Nausicaa

The Muck and the Watcher sounds like a goddamn incredible title for a book. I may have to steal that. ;D

@ Ripple

JZ seems pretty good. How did he lose an allegedly unlosable matchup?

 

[Boiko]

I'd imagine he just didn't play it in a way that makes it super hard for D3 and Ripple capitalized on that.

 

[941]

Just out of curiosity, can Phresh do these infinite handoffs on characters that aren't fat? I've done a lot of handoff testing, and I feel comfortable saying that He would have to be pretty amazing to consistently do it on light/small characters.

Oh no, I tried to get a 3.51 one out as well. People shoved me around different directions telling me to ask different people, and then telling me things would be done in a couple of weeks and to just wait...and I told them it would take months and people just said I was wrong. It's been 6 months since then and I've pretty much quit PM over it. I don't even play the game anymore I just play melee and then will enter PM if it's at a tournament. It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening.

PMDT hates ICs confirmed. It's unfortunate that Fly Amanita doesn't work with PM anymore. I think he could contribute a lot to ICs development, and take Ripple's place as best DDD.

 

[Boiko]

Just out of curiosity, can Phresh do these infinite handoffs on characters that aren't fat?

Yes.

 

[Hylian]

Just out of curiosity, can Phresh do these infinite handoffs on characters that aren't fat? I've done a lot of handoff testing, and I feel comfortable saying that He would have to be pretty amazing to consistently do it on light/small characters.


PMDT hates ICs confirmed. It's unfortunate that Fly Amanita doesn't work with PM anymore. I think he could contribute a lot to ICs development, and take Ripple's place as best DDD.

He didn't contribute too much when he did work on them. He never seemed overly interested in PM to me, though he gave good opinions every now and then.

 

[D e l t a]

IMO I feel DDD v Ivy is like 55/45 DDD favor. You guys might be trolling so what do I know?

Also, I'll bet that JZ has very little DDD exp. outside of MI's one D3 main and maybe some randomly good D3 down south. Still seems good for Ivy with free heals & combos for days.

Loses to Anther but beats Axe. Anther confirmed better than Axe.

DDD ness is horrible for ddd tho.

Not horrible, just really, really bad when Ness gets their PKF walls & pressure started. Off-stage, well... as much as it pains me to reference my crew mate, just look at Ripple v Tetra this past weekend. Ripple / DDD is merciless once you get off stage

DDD is best character, followed by lucas and m2. Spacies mid tier at best

lol.

==

On the topic of PMBR people, who even works on Lucas?

 

[DMG]

Ripple used the super secret D3 technique to squash Ivy

He calmly turns to his opponent, and politely asks them "Don't do that"

Curiosity hits them like a semi-truck: "What does he mean? What is "that"? Is he legit reading me and about to punish? Calm down, it's probably just a mindgame or something"

All of a sudden they focus back onto the match. Somehow, they got tossed offstage. Your life flashes before your eyes: "Am I gonna make it back? Did I file my taxes? Sparky I'm gonna miss you, Honey I love you, watch after the kids!"

*Smack*

*Stock lost, match over*

As they sit there, absolutely devastated and wrecked in every way, Ripple unplugs both controllers, comes back and whispers into your ear "Get Oozed"





















... and that's the story of how D3 became top tier