Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

DDD ness is horrible for ddd tho.

lol no

JZ seems pretty good. How did he lose an allegedly unlosable matchup?

you'll see when the vids are out

It's unfortunate that Fly Amanita doesn't work with PM anymore. I think he could contribute a lot to ICs development, and take Ripple's place as best DDD.

no

 

[Boiko]

Not horrible, just really, really bad when Ness gets their PKF walls & pressure started. Off-stage, well... as much as it pains me to reference my crew mate, just look at Ripple v Tetra this past weekend. Ripple / DDD is merciless once you get off stage

60:40 D3's favor.

 

[941]

Rogue Hylian

Releases 3.51 IC's to the public, banished to the dark world by rest of PMDT, comes back as sepia Ganon

I'm in favor of this, although personally, I'd rather see sepia Dark Link. Has there been any consideration given to changing the way Handoffs work mid-stage? I agree that the infinite should be removed, but without it, I feel like there is almost no incentive to do a mid-stage handoff.

 

[Player -0]

Is Sepia colored Link going to be in 3.6?

 

[steelguttey]

something something this isnt the social thread something something

 

[Player -0]

The change would directly affect his placement on the tier list though.

 

[D e l t a]

something something this isnt the social thread something something

Color is extremely important. Why do you think Chillin does worse without white Fox? :kappa:

 

[Ogopogo]

Color is extremely important. Why do you think Chillin does worse without white Fox? :kappa:

In PM I actually play worse without my color. but that's just because I'm bad

 

[PlateProp]

can confirm not having my color makes me play worse

but that's prolly cause the squirtle recolors are bad aside from red

 

[Shadic]

On topic, please.

 

[DMG]

Yeah it's like I'm the only one who stays on topic around here, what a bunch of serfs

I'm gonna play D3 next tourney and get it recorded + get judged by Ripple. I'm ready to take to the skies and see if his potential feels like what Ripple shows

 

[D e l t a]

Since Link was mentioned above, has there been discussion on his MUs?


All I know of are Fox & Marth beat Link, Lucas is even / loses, Wolf is even, Zelda and sheik either win or it's even.

 

[DMG]

Not sure Marth has that much of an edge on Link. Old Link was either 50-50 or damn close to it, he might lose by a couple points but MU will follow "whoever is better player wins" pretty decently.

His MU's are more doable than the average person understands, however I think they would be correct with the sentiment that Link isn't "dominant" enough in MU traits to be considered that good. A lot of people would just write off any MU that he doesn't clearly win, as a lost cause, when in reality many of them are only 40:60 or 5 points for his opponent's favor. Not that this is a great incentive to main Link, when your MU spread is not full of easy 65:35 slaughters for you to enjoy lol

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Since Link was mentioned above, has there been discussion on his MUs?

well against mario the MU is pretty close. Somewhere between even and in mario's favor.

Kinda hype that link is being discussed, always felt he was really underrated. Getting in On link can be absolutely frustrating. Between his boomerang, bow and bomb. He has weird CG setup involving his amazing jab. Has secure kills of his grab(down throw > Up B/ Down throw > read > Dair). He has a solid recovery on top of his Bomb hop tech. He has alot of good things, and in the hands of a smart/capable player he's Edit: pretty good.

The only reason people dismiss Link is because TL is better. He does everything link does except Link is slower and more comboable.

Does anyone know is Hero of Time is still playing. I only saw him at aftershock and didnt hear about/ seem him play again.

 

[AceGamer]

Does anyone know is Hero of Time is still playing. I only aftershock and didnt hear about/ seem him play again.

Nah I haven't heard or seen anything of Hero of Time since Aftershock but you can look at Danny Ic3 matches if you want some data on Link

 

[Player -0]

Link gets bodied by all of the tops except like, Pufff, Peach, and Marth.

 

[Soupchicken]

I still don't like Ice-Samus.
Is there any signs of Samus players making use of switching between the 2 version quite frequently mid-match?
The only way I can see it coming into play often (even against floaties, which tends to be the argument for when it's better) is on something like a quick ledge-cancelled taunt to switch to the F-Air for an edge-guard, or an U-Smash for a stock/combo, and switching back to Fire-Samus as soon as possible.

The main problem with ice is that switching modes with a ledge-cancel is unnecessarily difficult. Seems like a 1-2 frame window, but I'm not certain.

The high risk of being stuck in a taunt animation or failing to switch far outweighs the potential benefits. Furthermore, even if it works out perfectly switching to fire after taking a stock with ice prevents you from having the time to prep a charge shot.

That being said, it is, in theory, optimal to occasionally switch. As you mentioned, dropping off the stage for fair edgeguards is effective. Likewise you are spot on about ice-mode up-smash. There are also a few use-cases you missed. For instance, switching to ice-mode for missile spamming off-stage opponents. Ice homing missiles are awesome.

Lastly, there is the mind-game component of switching on the fly. Opponents must adjust their play constantly as the space ice-mode Samus controls is different than her fire counterpart. Her ice-mode fair for instance can stuff aerials that would eat right through her fire-mode options. Similarly, her ice-mode up-smash makes it far more dangerous to be on a platform above her as her fire up-smash doesn't even reach high enough vertically to do anything but singe their feet and glue you to the ground long enough for them to recover and approach. A Samus who is constantly ledge-canceling between modes would be difficult to keep track of and deal with.

Even a single additional frame of leniency should be enough of a change to make ice-mode worth the effort. I hope they will adjust it for 3.6.

 

[Chevy]

Nah I haven't heard or seen anything of Hero of Time since Aftershock but you can look at Danny Ic3 matches if you want some data on Link

Hero of Time normally goes by Red1. He was a pretty prominent netplayer for a while, he plays in Florida.

 

[Boiko]

Nah I haven't heard or seen anything of Hero of Time since Aftershock but you can look at Danny Ic3 matches if you want some data on Link

He got second in a weekly pretty recently. He lost to Stereo in Grand Finals. It's on youtube, recorded by a cell phone, but not bad to watch.

 

[4tlas]

Since Link was mentioned above, has there been discussion on his MUs?
Zelda and sheik either win or it's even.

I believe Zelda loses slightly to Link but Sheik wins slightly. Like 60-40 both ways. Of course I played against more 3.02 Link than anything else back then, so maybe I'm still thinking of that. I've also gotten much better since then, so...idfk.

 

[Nausicaa]

Lastly, there is the mind-game component of switching on the fly. A Samus who is constantly ledge-canceling between modes would be difficult to keep track of and deal with.

That is very much what I was looking at.
Recovering against Fire, then adjusting play (even if you KNOW the Samus switched) to deal with Ice, then back again, that's the juicy stuff.
Might sacrifice a charge shot, but are there a lot of people switching frequently at all? If so, I'd assume it would be this way, not mid-combo. Some more leniency WOULD be nice for sure.

Even if the switch was more frame-full in 3.6, there's only 1 thing I would want changed about Samus in the next patch.
There were 2 things, but her Z-Air was nerfed, so the last thing is about her Un-Charged Charge-Shot.
That crap needs less lag when used in the air/while landing. Made like Melee, or at least a little closer.
Right now it's worse than like... Bowser-Bomb lag. Completely unusable.
Decrease lag on un-charged aerial charge-shot
+
Increase frame leniency for the taunt cancel switch.


For Link...
I'm not sure anyone dismisses him because there's a TL floating around. lol
But maybe that IS why, and that's why my communication with people in the community is always so off-the-wall unintelligible for both parties.

There's no character that fits more crappy and vague explanations than this noob-slaying zoner.
He's slow, at least. Otherwise, he has pace-control in various ways for various things, free-stuff in the form of everything from initial hits to continuous strings, and a mix of tools for pressure and positioning that are mildly obnoxious to get around and not get hurt by. Playing him, it really feels like not ALL of it comes into play at once, so he can't break the game entirely, but it really feels like it SHOULD break the game sometimes.

He doesn't break the game, but he often seems like he can.
I think that fits him pretty well given his archetype too.


@ 4tlas I concur wit dat

 

[4tlas]

That is very much what I was looking at.
Recovering against Fire, then adjusting play (even if you KNOW the Samus switched) to deal with Ice, then back again, that's the juicy stuff.
Might sacrifice a charge shot, but are there a lot of people switching frequently at all? If so, I'd assume it would be this way, not mid-combo. Some more leniency WOULD be nice for sure.

Even if the switch was more frame-full in 3.6, there's only 1 thing I would want changed about Samus in the next patch.
There were 2 things, but her Z-Air was nerfed, so the last thing is about her Un-Charged Charge-Shot.
That crap needs less lag when used in the air/while landing. Made like Melee, or at least a little closer.
Right now it's worse than like... Bowser-Bomb lag. Completely unusable.
Decrease lag on un-charged aerial charge-shot
+
Increase frame leniency for the taunt cancel switch.


For Link...
I'm not sure anyone dismisses him because there's a TL floating around. lol
But maybe that IS why, and that's why my communication with people in the community is always so off-the-wall unintelligible for both parties.



He doesn't break the game, but he often seems like he can.
I think that fits him pretty well given his archetype too.


@ 4tlas I concur wit dat

With relation to Samus' Fire/Ice modes, I look at it similarly to how I play Sheilda. I want the multihits for damage and zoning, and I want the single strikes for quicker hits and knockback. I'm not particularly good at Samus, but once I launch my opponent far enough away that I'm ready to start killing them, I use the free time to switch to Ice. Then switch to fire during their respawn.

With relation to Link, I think he definitely was overwhelming with his zoning in 3.02, but now I'm not so sure. I think the proper way to play Link is to throw your projectiles (boomerang, bomb) near but not at your opponent, then push forward slightly for more stage control using hookshot or nair. Rinse and repeat. What I see people do is either camp (which is "optimal" in that you take few risks) or charge in like a madman. I can't tell what the character's optimal play is if nobody tries. Obviously the character is more complicated than any rinse and repeat strategy suggests, but I think its certainly better than going ham.

 

[Vashimus]

Even against floaties where Ice's single strong hits are more effective, I end up using Fire 90% of the time anyway since all of its moves are useful as opposed to just 2, and I'm already familiar with how to use them. Ice homing missiles that last forever are nice, but I still like fire super missiles with that extra kick.

 

[didds]

is pikachu still bad because i have to think with him? or can i spam dd usmash yet

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm ready to start killing them, I use the free time to switch to Ice.

With relation to Link, I think he definitely was overwhelming with his zoning in 3.02, but now I'm not so sure. I think the proper way to play Link is to throw your projectiles (boomerang, bomb) near but not at your opponent, then push forward slightly for more stage control using hookshot or nair. Rinse and repeat. What I see people do is either camp (which is "optimal" in that you take few risks) or charge in like a madman. I can't tell what the character's optimal play is if nobody tries. Obviously the character is more complicated than any rinse and repeat strategy suggests, but I think its certainly better than going ham.

I assume that's ONLY against Floaties.

I'm with @ Vashimus on this one obviously. The multi-hit coverage of F-Air, combo options off it and D-Tilt, the could-easily-be-her-best-move F-Smash, and even U-Smash I find more functional in Fire than the Ice one in all ways.

With her Z-Air not being so broken (seriously, most OP move ever) that space-control game basically needs to have the F-Smash to be complete. I think that move was the only reason she could get away with being Ice to begin with.
Stoked for some changes, but meh, one day maybe it'll come into use.

For Link...
Jab is love, jab is life

@ didds no no-brainz for u

 

[didds]

no no nair nair dd nair dd usmash thunder win!
maybe a cc dsmash for good measure.

I still find that pika doesnt really care who he fights if he's patient enough and mildly intelligent.

thinking makes bad though, who am i to say otherwise?

god work is brutal right now sorry guys. I still say pika is at least top half of the cast, its nice to not feel completely helpless against spacies and swords and other common stub arm roadblocks, not the way other characters seem to feel completely lost with at least

 

[Nausicaa]

no no nair nair dd nair dd usmash thunder win!
maybe a cc dsmash for good measure.

I still find that pika doesnt really care who he fights if he's patient enough and mildly intelligent.

thinking makes bad though, who am i to say otherwise?

god work is brutal right now sorry guys. I still say pika is at least top half of the cast, its nice to not feel completely helpless against spacies and swords and other common stub arm roadblocks, not the way other characters seem to feel completely lost with at least

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Boiko]

no no nair nair dd nair dd usmash thunder win!
maybe a cc dsmash for good measure.

I still find that pika doesnt really care who he fights if he's patient enough and mildly intelligent.

thinking makes bad though, who am i to say otherwise?

god work is brutal right now sorry guys. I still say pika is at least top half of the cast, its nice to not feel completely helpless against spacies and swords and other common stub arm roadblocks, not the way other characters seem to feel completely lost with at least

I think Pika's biggest problem is lack of disjoint and having a pretty difficult time dealing with characters that have a good DD. I think Pika floats rights around the top 20-25 range.

 

[Jonyc128]

@ AssTAStic_ACA
Yea he's still playing he goes to the weeklies in Pompano Beach but sadly there's no stream for PM :/ he usually gets at least top 3 against the likes of Porkchops, Blea Gelo, and ESAM

 

[4tlas]

I assume that's ONLY against Floaties.

I'm with @ Vashimus on this one obviously. The multi-hit coverage of F-Air, combo options off it and D-Tilt, the could-easily-be-her-best-move F-Smash, and even U-Smash I find more functional in Fire than the Ice one in all ways.

With her Z-Air not being so broken (seriously, most OP move ever) that space-control game basically needs to have the F-Smash to be complete. I think that move was the only reason she could get away with being Ice to begin with.
Stoked for some changes, but meh, one day maybe it'll come into use.

I don't use Samus competitively, but no I switch to Ice for kills regardless of my opponent's character. I have no idea if its better than just staying Fire, I was just saying that's the way I look at it right now. I think staying Fire is probably better, but I really WANT Ice to be useful... =/

Also yeah that zair is redonk.

 

[Nausicaa]

There's a local Samus that goes all-Ice all the time, only played him a couple times but was in the last couple months (since I got back into smash)
He uses a tag Bird
So literally any time I use an Ice move I shout LEGACY OF BIRD, and I only ever switch to Ice if he's there...

That's my use for Ice right now. lol

 

[Eisen]

@ 4tlas in a technical sense, I don't think it's possible for using only one mode to be optimal, since more options are intrinsically better. The problem with ice/fire is that switching between the two is tedious--it's not very accessible. To be more specific, ice upsmash is much better at killing floaties and multi-jumpers, whereas fire f-smash is brutal on fastfallers.

 

[Nausicaa]

@ 4tlas in a technical sense, I don't think it's possible for using only one mode to be optimal, since more options are intrinsically better. The problem with ice/fire is that switching between the two is tedious--it's not very accessible.

Melee Zelda even comes to use...
Before anyone says that's a counter-argument. lol

 

[4tlas]

@ 4tlas in a technical sense, I don't think it's possible for using only one mode to be optimal, since more options are intrinsically better. The problem with ice/fire is that switching between the two is tedious--it's not very accessible. To be more specific, ice upsmash is much better at killing floaties and multi-jumpers, whereas fire f-smash is brutal on fastfallers.

Unfortunately, Ice mode is not strictly more options, because you can't use the Fire moves. So it is technically possible for one to be strictly better. I just hope its not true (and I'm pretty sure Ice fair and upsmash are totally worth it against floaties)

 

[DMG]

I miss fire dtilt, and that's about it

 

[CORY]

don't lie. you only play captain falcon and his grandpa (occasionally).

 

[DMG]

Idk who I play anymore. I'm trapped into Falcon, wanting to branch out but he's my best char (when I'm playing good)

I'd probably play him exclusively if I could nail consistency as a player. Part of that is playing how you want vs how you need or should, and not having the sense of urgency that high/top level play can generate being a constant thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Red 1 is staying with me for LTC3, so yeah he's still around.

 

[DMG]

Need to get some more games in with him. Was disappointed with Game 3 of our set @ aftershock, but otherwise was really good set

 

[PlateProp]

Red 1 is staying with me for LTC3, so yeah he's still around.

Oh yay I get to play his fraud fox again

On pika though, why the hell does his dair have so little endlag when canceled? It's ridiculous