Tier List Speculation

[Xcite]

Eh I think I can see Lucas in the bottom half of Top 10. Does he really have a lot of bad match ups?

 

[PlateProp]

I'm excited for Squirtle buffs. I simply can't imagine what they would nerf that is actually important (outside of shell shift, in which case I would probably get super pissed again like I did last patch notes when I saw QAC2 was removed...). Would love some throw buffs to make things like f throw rhus up smash more lenient (because that would be fricken amazing). Ah well, at least nobody understands my character so I can jank them out all 4 stocks every game...

>Squirtle
>Buffs


Lmaooo

Pretty sure up b's last hitbox gonna be shrunk. But that's good, cause it's stupidly big right now

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Eh I think I can see Lucas in the bottom half of Top 10. Does he really have a lot of bad match ups?

TBH i can see lucas being top tier(much like how fox is to melee) if the characters meta was alot more developed. Like when PM is all said and done(meaning no more updates;final patch), lucas will probably go back to dominating the meta. Even in 3.5 he has great offensive options that are reminiscent of 3.0 lucas. Lucas is already spacie like in alot of ways(movement, fall speed, shine, disgusting control of neutral) and with his DJC tech, his tech skill ceiling could be insane. DJC opens the doors for alot of combos.

Watching alot of azprojectmelee, the commentators often talk about neon. They say his biggest short coming is that he has an auto-pilot kinda play style, in which he has a set pattern per match. If we took Neon's tech skill capabilities, and put it on a really smart player(lets say m2k). It could be daunting.

 

[robosteven]

No there are definitely a handful of other characters who need slight adjustments to make the way the interact a little less silly
Being on the receiving end of claims of fraudulency isn't fun, I want ROB to get a faster falling speed so people will stop *****ing when they can't combo me

I feel like this would be a perfect opportunity to mention how stupid Olimar's grab is.

...specifically the part where, like Lucas's 3.02 dash-grab, you can't really sidestep dodge it consistently because lingering grab-boxes.

****'s dumb.

 

[didds]

Nerds just don't understand quirk speak or else they wouldn't be so baffled at nausica's thoughts, pika for prez

 

[Nausicaa]

pewpew

Mario,Luigi,Yoshi,Lucas,pika top tier?.....kek.

You must be new to this thing.
Also, I DID mention this.

I'm sure most people (who know how wack I am) expect some wacky shiz in my list.
So here's my wacky list.

Same goes with falco even though he still kinda sucks in PM IMHO. Melee players still make this character look great though.

Yeah, you must be. I'll try explaining a bit.

ik for a fact the mario brothers suffer against swordies

Mario isn't slow, doesn't lack the pokes-into-conversions that he did in Melee, and is too much of a rock on the ground for swordies to safely control. This isn't Melee, you might want to re-think that one.
Luigi isn't gibbled off a throw/stray aerial > transition-into-edgeguard, which was all swordies could actually rely on against him.
Wario has enough pokes-into-conversions that his speed and weight allow him to avoid getting out-spaced with DDs and power through stray aerials.
They're all fine vs swordies in PM. If you think they're not, that's fine, but I think you'll see otherwise eventually.

With good movement and simple reads ganon is a problem

For the first time in Ganon-in-Smash history. lol
His options aren't speed-related, but he can at least cover himself a little better. I don't think he has enough to threaten winning a tournament without switching out somewhat frequently, which is good given his archetype.

Put pika in low mid(sorry anther's placement at one major doesnt cut it imo; not tryna take shots at ppl though.)

He did well at another thingypoo? That's cute. Anthypoo is still a student. We're all students to Pika.

Follow this link

and this one too

Random pika-insight perhaps littered in these things.

Maybe put TL in top tier he just has so much good going for him(Links tools + good speed + plus kill of throw + he can leave combos kinda early = really good character)

He kind of basically is, and I've always considered him basically where I have him on this list. Solid-crew represent.

@ Dotcom you should've seen my other lists. lol
You must be new to this too.

#1 Wolf
I always thought he was good, but now I think he's really good because people say I'm good when I play him but I'm not lol.

Figured you would see your own interpretation here. The 'always thought he was good' stuff still applies to now. Now, just happens to be you know... recent. Duh

#2 Mewtwo
He was number two on my last list, and my super OP yet completely unexplained playstyle with him that is much better than any current playstyles isn't being used yet.

When the top mainstream players come tell you that what you told them helped and improved their game (even if they're super-bias *coughm2k) let me know.
Otherwise, if you really think he was destroyed SO hard from 3.02 that he's not a top contender anymore, I simply don't.

#3-8

I put this character really high last patch but he got nerfed so he's slightly lower. He's also really hard to play.

Well done.

Apparently being upper mid in just about every tier list and high on some means he's straight up bad in the main stream, but I think he'll be good.

You must be new. This time last year (or earlier) I basically spent more time defending Luigi, Peach, and Pika, because everyone apparently 'knew' they were bottom tier.
If this isn't the case anymore, than sweet. Therefore, what I said is accurate again, TY for the info.
I've been afk for a while, good to hear.

#19 Falco
I always put him in the middle, but for once, I actually agree with my own opinion. I didn't know how he would deal with teh PM janks but I thought he'd be middle and he's middle.

Might want to re-read what I wrote.

#21 Zero Suit Samus
She was normalized, but apparently that keeps her form having to play a certain way, but she's bad but that's fine.

Here too. Though I know you're a ZSS nut so I'll re-state.
It's the counter-play that OTHERS had to do in distinct ways, that they no longer have to do because of it being more standardized. Nothing about what SHE has to do.
Also, how did you get that she's bad, and that being bad is the thing that's fine? I don't get it. haha

#41 Ooze

This character is OBVIOUSLY SO BAD THAT HE DOESN'T EVEN WARRANT A DESCRIPTION DESPITE EVERYTHING.

Yeah, you're new.
I've seen some ways people are describing Dedede recently (take a guess).
So I think the community at-large is starting to understand why I've always given him a tier of his own.
The Ooze is real.

I mean... it's look like you spent time on it but....

It only took about 40 mins or so while I listened to a 40 minute talk on youtube about shiz.

I type fast.

TY @DrinkingFood but this isn't even my final form.
I mean, I've had bigger.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

>Squirtle
>Buffs


Lmaooo

Pretty sure up b's last hitbox gonna be shrunk. But that's good, cause it's stupidly big right now

I guess I should rephrase, if I didn't say it this way. I wont really be mad about the nerfs that I can see coming (like up b). But if shelshift, throws, bair, dtilt, and others were nerfed I would be mad.

 

[InfinityCollision]

@ Nausicaa I'm curious where you place Mewtwo as far as difficulty. His play style and tools are somewhat esoteric, coupled to a need for precise play and technical inputs... He's a character for the long haul, not someone I really see players picking up as a high level secondary right now. I've had a few people ask about the less utilized bits of Mewtwo's kit and the result is always the same: they get a partial glimpse at his potential, try a few things for themselves, and decide it's not worth the investment. While there are definite technical barriers to overcome, there's relatively simple things that go under or unutilized as well. Lots of room for optimization.

 

[Dotcom]

New, old, bad list is bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Optimal M2 play is ludicrously difficult - as is effective M2 play. Spacies' optimal skill ceilings might be very slightly higher than M2's (which I doubt, due partly to the obscene lengths to which teleport AC could theoretically be pushed), but the time investment required to actually become effective is probably higher for M2 than for anyone else in PM, imo

 

[InfinityCollision]

Odds knows

Well... Odds knows more than most at least.

 

[Boiko]

ICs are nothing short of high tier in 3.5 when **** like this exists.

http://www.gfycat.com/NaughtyIdolizedIrishwolfhound

In melee, wobbling is fine imo, because Nana is dumb easy to kill. In PM, you have to deal with her actually recovering, while Popo can taget you on the ledge, go insanely deep, and recover from hell with side b.

That being said, I would love to see the adaptations IC players make in 3.6 when (hopefully) this garbo doesn't exist anymore.

 

[steelguttey]

ice climbers are stupid right now. if anyone thinks that handoff infinites arent practical they havent played against it

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

ik you said the tier list may be wacky, so maybe I should have taken it more with a grain of salt. though mario luigi are still not top tier.

Mario isn't slow, doesn't lack the pokes-into-conversions that he did in Melee, and is too much of a rock on the ground for swordies to safely control.

when I said swordies I was mainly talking about FE characters. I will change that.

You only talked about what mario had, without looking from the other side. Though you're right about the tools mario has against swordies.

Mario has a rougher time getting in during neutral to use those tools. Marth for example .has alot of safe pokes that just in general keep mario out(ftilt, jab, fair, bair, dtilt). Pills are good because they clank with marths normals (ftilt, jab, etc), but A good marth can just double fair through pills(this could result in mario losing stage control which is bad. )

the other FE characters also have similar game plan on mario. Roy can also CC well, as well as having tools that just generally out spaces marios kit.(Dtilt, Fair). Ike has falcon like speed and great power, snd range to boot.

Not to mention Ike and Marth have chain grabs on mario.

You mention the mariobros being like rocks? so im going assume you mean there amazing CC ability. Those are used in trade situations so you still take damage. Also that only work till mid-midhigh percent. Even then good marth/fRoy spacing from fair or dtilt, still put mario at the disadvantage. You only want to CC marth/Roy fair when he's approaching.

Not saying that he has horrible MU against FE people but its not in his favor. He's just doesnt have range, so large disjoints can bully him. This a big reason why chars like Ivy and M2 give mario trouble.

This isn't Melee, you might want to re-think that one

I don't play melee.

Luigi isn't gibbled off a throw/stray aerial > transition-into-edgeguard, which was all swordies could actually rely on against him.
Wario has enough pokes-into-conversions that his speed and weight allow him to avoid getting out-spaced with DDs and power through stray aerials.

Luigi suffers from alot of the same problems mario has alot in the FE MU. He just simply gets out ranged. Burst movement can help(down b, wavedash) but fair just simply beats it.

I admit, I do not know alot about wario to make a proper argument; nor did I include him when I said the mario bros. His CC greater than mario and luigis but he still suffer alot because of his lack of range.

In general FE(Marth especially) is not a "winning" mu for any of these characters. its not horrible but these characters but have to work harder to win neutral.

FE characters are strong in the current meta imo.

Probably the biggest reason why mario/luigi aren't top tier is because even though they are all around solid characters, honestly their are just so many more characters who are better. Characters that make you play their game all the time. Characters like Fox,Falco,M2,Falcon,Roy,TL(imo),Lucario,DIddy,sheik, Peach. Mario brothers don't have one tool or attribute they can abuse all the time, that works across all MU, that forces someone to play their game. Mario brothers focus more on out playing your opponent.

For the first time in Ganon-in-Smash history. lol
His options aren't speed-related, but he can at least cover himself a little better. I don't think he has enough to threaten winning a tournament without switching out somewhat frequently, which is good given his archetype.

First I never said ganon was top tier just not low. Probably more like low mid tier or high mid. Ganon is not that bad and can really take control of the stage. That couple with good movement, ganon can place his meaty back airs and Fairs in very optimal spots(i.e Battlefield, PS2,DL). Maybe you havent played a good ganon, the character is very solid im PM. You'll see eventually.

 

[Nausicaa]

@ Nausicaa I'm curious where you place Mewtwo as far as difficulty. His play style and tools are somewhat esoteric, coupled to a need for precise play and technical inputs... He's a character for the long haul, not someone I really see players picking up as a high level secondary right now. I've had a few people ask about the less utilized bits of Mewtwo's kit and the result is always the same: they get a partial glimpse at his potential, try a few things for themselves, and decide it's not worth the investment. While there are definite technical barriers to overcome, there's relatively simple things that go under or unutilized as well. Lots of room for optimization.

To add to what Odds said, from a different angle.
Most of the top-end Mewtwo players that I discussed this with (the depth of what the difference between of them/us was), they all had a similar reaction to the topic. Usually it being a comfort + certainty combination that made people sway from taking him in weird directions. U-Air-heavy play (guess who) but never using those U-Air games mixed with TPs and Hovers in a way that leads to free 50% kills off the side with things like Down-B or Shadow-Ball, which is some of the free-stuff that Mewtwo COULD have if you worked with it. Instead, resorting to the safe U-Air's at the end of strings would keep positional advantages without needing much for precision, and given how difficult even the simple game could be with him, it was needed to perform well AT ALL in the short-term.
The same occurred with discussions with others involving the TP-Hover games almost exclusively (guess who) but never getting into the pressure game that Mewtwo could apply to REALLY make that kind of pacing-play work. The close-combat game is some of the trickiest to work with on a finicky character, so playing the pacing-game is much simpler and gives MUCH better results in terms of immediate-gain for developed play. Though the only way that pacing game could actually be optimized in any end-game form, would be if the pressure game was there to FORCE opponents to attempt a pacing game that they're bound to lose. That's not an easy mix when looking to do well any time soon. So same deal.

For the most part though, anyone who does well with Mewtwo gets props. Unlike a lot situations where you can learn the jank of a character and do well with them, while still being an incompetent player, even during the Mewtwo 3.02 he was still a character you had to be competent with as a player to SEE those results through developing character-specific play. So that's already something.

That being said, I would love to see the adaptations IC players make in 3.6 when (hopefully) this garbo doesn't exist anymore.

At least it's sexy, and I love them so much for that.
Non-true combos with them are WAY sexier though, and I think everyone agrees, so I'm sure everyone hopes that comes to fruition somehow more and more.
ICs are sexier in PM than any other game, but they could be sexier.
Stoked.

You mention the mariobros being like rocks?

I don't play melee.

To add to the Pika links I posted for you, here's another thing to check out but for Mario, might have some insight on the rock-thing.

Just a pointer for future-reference then, you might want to avoid saying things like 'Melee players seem to make Falco work' because it REALLY sounds like you're just going off second-hand interpretations of what others do/say, rather than your own decisions. If you're going to post statements, as if they're stable or something you've concluded and aren't just guessing about AFTER saying something like this, then it just sounds worse than it needs to.

Again, not a big deal and no offense, but saying you don't know a lot about a character really sounds like something you could say for everything you've discussed.
You're making statements that are either inaccurate...
- This a big reason why chars like Ivy and M2 give mario trouble.
- Wario still suffer alot because of his lack of range.
Or statements that are arbitrary and essentially redundant to how things play out.
- Burst movement can help(down b, wavedash) but fair just simply beats it
That also are contradictory to other things you say.
- Mario brothers don't have one tool or attribute they can abuse all the tim
Especially given the history of things like Mario's Fireballs literally being one of the MOST COMPLAINED ABOUT things in PM history when it comes to centralizing tools. It's not like they've disappeared from the craziness of their previous absurdity.

Being new or something is great, but so many things about this make me not want to continue this conversation because it's like talking to people 4 years ago about the same stuff.

I won't say "Go read old posts about Marth vs Mario and Ganon viability" etc, because that's stupid.
But just so you know, most of what you've mentioned as if they're 'arguments' for a point or something, are incredibly out-dated. Everyone knows stray aerials > basic WD approaches, and that Ganon can control stages, and whatever, but this is 'given' stuff and shouldn't even be mentioned in conversations at this point.
It's awesome to see this come up though! You're on the right track with a LOT of stuff and have a great understanding for WHY you see things the way you do.
Keep it up!

Discussing a SINGLE one of these points is like a rabbit-hole though, so unless you REALLY want to go into something, I'll leave it to someone else.
Totally fine to either disagree, or not know, or whatever, and we could both EASILY be accurate on some things and inaccurate on others. That's naturally gotta be the case at some point, and I'm glad you brought these points up again because it really makes me realize how many peaks and valleys and different perspectives everyone comes from when it comes to global-forum and a growing game. Good refresher on where we all come from (especially where I'm coming from myself)
So thanks, it's like nostalgic or something. haha

But yeah... not going into all those rabbit holes at once. Sure, I type insanely fast, but that's a LOT of typing to do to clear all of that up. lol

My tier list really is for others to criticize and contemplate and laugh at and understand, and everything else.
So tear these things apart of it you feel like it, just know that it's not simple to put experiential nuance into words, and you're asking for a lot of explanation at once when you're coming from where you're coming from.

 

[Hylian]

ICs are nothing short of high tier in 3.5 when **** like this exists.

http://www.gfycat.com/NaughtyIdolizedIrishwolfhound

In melee, wobbling is fine imo, because Nana is dumb easy to kill. In PM, you have to deal with her actually recovering, while Popo can taget you on the ledge, go insanely deep, and recover from hell with side b.

That being said, I would love to see the adaptations IC players make in 3.6 when (hopefully) this garbo doesn't exist anymore.

Haha this post is silly.

1. The grab in this video doesn't work if you have any idea how to mash at all. Way too many idle frames with the dash, turnaround, dash back. If someone is doing this to you...just mash? It won't work until like 150%.

2. Nana is still dumb and easy to kill, she just doesn't run off the edge and kill herself like in melee.

3. IC's have horrible match-ups with a lot of the cast. This is not indicative of a high tier character when you have like three near unwinnable match-ups that are fairly common.

A lot of people underrate IC's because they don't understand much about them. A lot of people also overrate them for this reason because they don't understand proper counterplay. IC's not being able to turn around hurts them way more than having this infinite helps them. WAY more. The infinite is dumb yes...which is why it's being removed. It doesn't instantly make them high tier though in a cast of characters that have so many tools against them.

 

[Nausicaa]

A combo like that also doesn't out-match anything Zard could do to them right back, but less conditionally and more often, and to both at once.

Just for example of how little something like that ACTUALLY matters.

Sexy though. Love ICs combos, so much sexier than Zard shiz could ever be.

 

[Frost | Odds]

A lot of people underrate IC's because they don't understand much about them. A lot of people also overrate them for this reason because they don't understand proper counterplay.

As it is above on the tier list, so it is below.

I'm still pretty skeptical about how horrible the ICs worst matchups could be. They've got enough mobility and disjoint, strong enough kill moves, decent enough safe/neutral moves, and a good enough recovery that they don't seem like they should be overly vulnerable to any basic degenerate tactics. Even without their ridiculous chaingrabs, it's difficult for me to understand how a character with so many insane, inherent strengths could possibly have any matchup which could be categorized 'terrible'. I wish I could pick them up and test it out for myself within a reasonable timeframe, but the upfront time investment required to become remotely competent with the ICs is probably second only to Mewtwo, so for now I'm forced to either take your word for it or come across as contrary, salty [expletive]. :/

 

[Nausicaa]

I wish I could pick them up and test it out for myself within a reasonable timeframe, but the upfront time investment required to become remotely competent with the ICs is probably second only to Mewtwo, so for now I'm forced to either take your word for it or come across as contrary, salty [expletive]. :/

I think you're overestimating this by an insane amount.
If you can play competently enough with simply fundamentals to make a character work, you can get going with ICs instantly. (edit: As you mentioned, they have the tools to work outside the cheese perfectly fine) The upfront investment isn't the difficult part, and if there is a difficult part, it's probably a knowledge-base and nuance thing just as much as it is for any character, they won't seem as daunting once you begin. That's probably the only upfront thing holding you back.
Fearing the climbers.

 

[941]

Nana is still dumb and easy to kill, she just doesn't run off the edge and kill herself like in melee.

Um.. What? I've played a lot of Melee ICs, and I'm quite confident I've never seen an AI controlled Nana willingly leave the stage. I have, however, seen PM Nana run/jump off the stage many times in an attempt to "help" Popo and messing up edge guards or getting at least 1 of them KOed.

As it is above on the tier list, so it is below.

I'm still pretty skeptical about how horrible the ICs worst matchups could be. They've got enough mobility and disjoint, strong enough kill moves, decent enough safe/neutral moves, and a good enough recovery that they don't seem like they should be overly vulnerable to any basic degenerate tactics. Even without their ridiculous chaingrabs, it's difficult for me to understand how a character with so many insane, inherent strengths could possibly have any matchup which could be categorized 'terrible'. I wish I could pick them up and test it out for myself within a reasonable timeframe, but the upfront time investment required to become remotely competent with the ICs is probably second only to Mewtwo, so for now I'm forced to either take your word for it or come across as contrary, salty [expletive]. :/

Their recovery is only good in terms of distance, and even then they have to be synced. It's really easy for most characters to gimp and edge guard them. For example: If they try to recover with side-B, they can both be killed by something as simple as a Mario fireball. They may have some insane strengths, but also insane weaknesses. Because of this any character that can either exploit these weaknesses, or circumvent these strengths will likely have a favorable MU, and the few characters that can do both become very hard counters. I like to think of ICs like Melee G&W: They have some really great moves, but they also have a lot of things that fundamentally don't work.
I suggested some changes in a separate thread, feel free to check it out here: http://smashboards.com/threads/proposed-changes-to-project-m-ice-climbers.404153/#post-19282696

 

[Hylian]

Um.. What? I've played a lot of Melee ICs, and I'm quite confident I've never seen an AI controlled Nana willingly leave the stage. I have, however, seen PM Nana run/jump off the stage many times in an attempt to "help" Popo and messing up edge guards or getting at least 1 of them KOed.

I was using a hyperbole. Nana doesn't just run off and kill herself, but she might as well considering she just stands still. Nana running off and killing herself in PM is rare, and generally it's much better that she runs off to help popo.

 

[InfinityCollision]

To add to what Odds said, from a different angle.

Most of the top-end Mewtwo players that I discussed this with (the depth of what the difference between of them/us was), they all had a similar reaction to the topic. Usually it being a comfort + certainty combination that made people sway from taking him in weird directions.

U-Air-heavy play (guess who) but never using those U-Air games mixed with TPs and Hovers in a way that leads to free 50% kills off the side with things like Down-B or Shadow-Ball, which is some of the free-stuff that Mewtwo COULD have if you worked with it. Instead, resorting to the safe U-Air's at the end of strings would keep positional advantages without needing much for precision, and given how difficult even the simple game could be with him, it was needed to perform well AT ALL in the short-term.
The same occurred with discussions with others involving the TP-Hover games almost exclusively (guess who) but never getting into the pressure game that Mewtwo could apply to REALLY make that kind of pacing-play work. The close-combat game is some of the trickiest to work with on a finicky character, so playing the pacing-game is much simpler and gives MUCH better results in terms of immediate-gain for developed play. Though the only way that pacing game could actually be optimized in any end-game form, would be if the pressure game was there to FORCE opponents to attempt a pacing game that they're bound to lose. That's not an easy mix when looking to do well any time soon. So same deal.

This is basically what I'm driving at, coupled to the fact that Mewtwo has not only a relatively high skill floor, but arguably one of the highest skill ceilings in the game (Odds alluded to a technical aspect of this above). I have a history of saying that Mewtwo is really good even in 3.5, but also that Mewtwo players have left so much of the character untapped. Partly because of "playing it safe" as you said, partly because some of his execution barriers are incredibly, even impractically high. Partly because simple but powerful options go underused, like your down-b and Shadow Ball examples.

Effective pressure is definitely a target for long-term improvement within the Mewtwo community. I was studying characters like Luigi, other DJCers, etc near the end of 3.02 to gain outside perspective and encouraged other Mewtwo players to do the same. That exercise continues to bear fruit in 3.5.

 

[941]

I was using a hyperbole. Nana doesn't just run off and kill herself, but she might as well considering she just stands still. Nana running off and killing herself in PM is rare, and generally it's much better that she runs off to help popo.

Fun fact: It was recently discovered that Melee Nana's reference AI levels up the higher Popo's percent goes. That means that when Popo is off-stage, Nana can be very good at helping Popo return to the stage, and sometimes taking stocks. This also opens up more edge guarding options, as Nana will stay on-stage while Popo takes the ledge or jumps off-stage. This also explains why Melee Nana will occasionally finish stocks, while PM Nana will die to Randall.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Just a pointer for future-reference then, you might want to avoid saying things like 'Melee players seem to make Falco work'

Just because i'm not a melee player doesn't mean this is not from my experience. I personally think that Falco isn't that good in PM. Alot melee/PM players would say the same. Though whenever i play an experienced melee falco main, they play well enough to skew my opinion.

Again, not a big deal and no offense, but saying you don't know a lot about a character really sounds like something you could say for everything you've discussed.
You're making statements that are either inaccurate...
- This a big reason why chars like Ivy and M2 give mario trouble.
- Wario still suffer alot because of his lack of range.
Or statements that are arbitrary and essentially redundant to how things play out.
- Burst movement can help(down b, wavedash) but fair just simply beats it
That also are contradictory to other things you say.
- Mario brothers don't have one tool or attribute they can abuse all the tim
Especially given the history of things like Mario's Fireballs literally being one of the MOST COMPLAINED ABOUT things in PM history when it comes to centralizing tools. It's not like they've disappeared from the craziness of their previous absurdity.

Mario is actually my Main so when i argue for him/against him its not random info someone else tells me(some of my info does come from the boards though). Mario having a problem with ivy and m2 thing isnt something random from outta my ass. Due to their disjointed movesets, getting in during neutral to use marios tools will be difficult especially on m2(woop,woop,woop). Their may be other reason why the MU may be frustrating as mario, though the disjoints are a major contributing factor. If im wrong please prove it, instead of just saying im wrong without any clear explanation of how.

Luigi is a character who i play against alot seeing as one of my main training budddies uses him. Mario and Luigi have very similar kits. weeegee would have to deal with he same problems mario has to get something started against swordies/large disjoint chars. Luigi's aerials will make the MU easier on him(Some of his aerials have large hitboxes), and is way floatier so combos may stop working earlier than it would on mario. Luigi still(like mario) will have to work harder in neutral than the FE char would.

Mario's pills are good or a centralized part of his play, but pills are not as obnoxious as they once were.(lets say like in 3.0). Pills are not rapid enough to just sit their an abuse all the time in a high reward low risk fashion. You actually have to think about it now. Yes its a powerful projectile, but it has a very simple counter play to it.(compared to past iterations). Alot of the more top tier characters can deal with pills. Falcon is a good example. Falcon can weave pills on his speed alone. That + his nair makes keeping falcon away with pills difficult for mario.

Im going to try to explain this.
Mario is a good well rounded solid character BUT hes doesn't dominate in one specific aspect of the game like:
-Yes mario has a strong projectile, but that doesn't mean he is a strong zoner like Samus and Diddy; Nor does he control neutral like lets say fox, falco, Diddy again, TL.(these are charaacters with overwhelming projectile games)
-Yes mario has good combo's and CG's and hit confirms, pokes etc, BUT he does not have an absurd combo/punish game like fox, lucario.
-Yes mario has good speed but he cant play a strong keep away game or bait and punish game that is -based soley of his speed like fox, sonic, falcon.

Mario is decent at everything, but for everything that he is good at you can find another character with a similar quality, or is just straight up better at it(along with other attributes that might make them all around better characters like better speed.) Alot of Characters that people agree are top tier, excel at a certain aspects of the game. This allows them to force others to play by their rules. I.e DIddy in Neutral, Fox in rushdown/pressure(or everything really).

Hopefully you can understand a little better when i argue that mario is not 'top tier' . High tier or mid high sure, but not top tier.

If youre going to disagree say something besides im wrong plz.

Being new or something is great, but so many things about this make me not want to continue this conversation because it's like talking to people 4 years ago about the same stuff.

wow this is incredibly condescending.

I won't say "Go read old posts about Marth vs Mario and Ganon viability" etc, because that's stupid.
But just so you know, most of what you've mentioned as if they're 'arguments' for a point or something, are incredibly out-dated. Everyone knows stray aerials > basic WD approaches, and that Ganon can control stages, and whatever, but this is 'given' stuff and shouldn't even be mentioned in conversations at this point.

I actually have read old mario vs marth stuff you should check out the new mario MU thread.

If you understand ganons potential i don''t get how you could see him as low tier. We disagree it happens

It's awesome to see this come up though! You're on the right track with a LOT of stuff and have a great understanding for WHY you see things the way you do.
Keep it up!

again condescending if not straight out dismissive. I get i may be newer to smashboards compared to some of you guys, but please don't look at my post number, or how many years ive been a member, as some sort of measure to assess how accurate my arguements/statements are. If im wrong say it, don't just dismiss me because "i'm new....i must be". Even if i bring up old arguments, that doesn't suddenly make them not relevant. And if we are going to go there, you admit to not being so good yourself. You'd think you would be a bit more humble but w.e. Please come with actual counter arguements instead of "thats wrong" or "that was discussed". Especially don't say things like that wrong without having an actually argument as to why.

But yeah... not going into all those rabbit holes at once. Sure, I type insanely fast, but that's a LOT of typing to do to clear all of that up. lol

My tier list really is for others to criticize and contemplate and laugh at and understand, and everything else.
So tear these things apart of it you feel like it, just know that it's not simple to put experiential nuance into words, and you're asking for a lot of explanation at once when you're coming from where you're coming from.

Lets focus on mario then . There are still characters that are just bettter than him. With characters like Fox, lucario, roy, M2, diddy, TL running around it funny how you placed mario 5th on your tier list.

IF you put up this tier list to be criticized then you shouldnt be surprised if people disagree with your placements. Honestly alot of your placements are questionable and lack an actually argument for why you put them there(i.e wolf). You would think with all your experience you would know better than to do that. Or at least have a better way of presenting your arguements because you didnt do the best job.

Discussing a SINGLE one of these points is like a rabbit-hole though, so unless you REALLY want to go into something, I'll leave it to someone else.Totally fine to either disagree, or not know, or whatever, and we could both EASILY be accurate on some things and inaccurate on others. That's naturally gotta be the case at some point, and I'm glad you brought these points up again because it really makes me realize how many peaks and valleys and different perspectives everyone comes from when it comes to global-forum and a growing game. Good refresher on where we all come from (especially where I'm coming from myself)
So thanks, it's like nostalgic or something. haha

Even when you want to agree to disagree you resort to being condescending but w.e. hope to see you at a tournament dude really do.

Honestly im just going to disagree with you and let you have your list.

 

[D e l t a]

Kipcom and I wrote a thing on Lucas' MUs

As for Lucas' bad matchups, I'm inclined to say the following:

• Marth
• Falcon
• Fox
• Falco
• Roy
• Sonic

Character's who might potentially be an issue for Lucas:

• Samus
• Ike
• Wolf
• Zelda

Character-wise, I have found the following characters to be troublesome (plus everything Kip stated):

• Bowser
• Diddy
• Sonic (only if their movement is solid and you don't know the MU)
• IC's
  • If they space back and wall Lucas out this can be difficult. Otherwise it's super free bc Lucas can pressure for days and decimate Nana faster than you can say "wtf?!"
• Ganon & Mario
  • Chain grabs and free combos. Deals with PKF very well. Kills are easy to secure.
• Link / Toon Link
  • Link is way easier to deal with and is much slower
• Falcon
  • Only because Uthrow -> Knee is guaranteed and kills around 80-100% on most stages with good DI
• Pikachu?
  • Edit: Pika is easy for Lucas to deal with. You can out space him and deal with all of Pika's moves. Combo weight is good for Lucas and kills are easy to secure most times. Not much that Pika can do, other than out-play the Lucas.

Note that many cast members have a CG on Lucas, which really sucks and in most cases goes past 40%.

Even MUs give or take slight favor to one or the other

• Donkey Kong / Yoshi
  • Grab game is good. A few hits from them and Lucas dies. Training partner is a Yoshi main. I can confirm the Yoshi v Lucas MU is close to 55/45 Lucas favor. Be wary of low %, the CC armor is really good
• Metaknight
  • Watch any set of Neon vs K9. They both agreed it was close to even and met in GF's many times. It was 3.02, but the MU is still close to the same.
• Luigi
  • Potentially even? Not many Luigi's in the first place, let alone in PM. Can be difficult securing juggles and combos on Luigi, but floaties tend to die early, especially since OU Upsmash kills around 60-80%
• Wario maybe?
• Pit
• Snake
• G&W
• ROB
• Lucario

Relatively easy MUs

• Charizard
• Jigglypuff
  • Side note: Lucas is one of the very few characters if not the only character that can combo Jiggs past mid %. Lucas can potentially 0-death Jiggs. After playing in the lab a bit, I found how to combo Jiggs and it's surprisingly really easy. She gets out-spaced by Ftilt / Fsmash, Fair, and PKF is somewhat hard for Jiggs to deal with
• DeDeDe
• Kirby
• Olimar
• Ivysaur

IMO the Lucas ditto isn't hard to deal with. Avoid PKF, CC bad approaches, shield unsafe pressure and punish hard OoS, combo like a mother****er

 

[Xcite]

I don't think Lucas has any bad match- ups. His toolkit seems to be good enough to handle any character on the roster. Sure some may seem tougher than others, but I believe that once Lucas mains have achieved a true expert level of understanding of the character, then ultimately, he'll end up with relatively great matchup spreads against all the cast. Spacies will probably be the most difficult matchup to learn and master.

 

[steelguttey]

I don't think Lucas has any bad match- ups.

Sure some may seem tougher than others

Spacies will probably be the most difficult matchup to learn and master.

please stop

 

[Kipcom]

I don't think Lucas has any bad match- ups.

Yea ok.

 

[Jonyc128]

@ AssTAStic_ACA How would you rank the FE characters in terms of difficulty for Mario?
I have it as , then, , then finally

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

@ Jonyc128

I have it as , , .

Edit: I have changed my mind on this. I agree with Jonyc128

is the hardest for reasons ive stated in this thread and in the MU thread.

is a problem because of his mobility and how he plays neutral. His disgusting power makes it so he can kill us kinda early. We are at a decent combo weight for him(esp. Nair). He can chain grab us. in short he's just good lolz.. Though i will say once mario wins neutral he can do alot of damage. Ike is at a decent weight/fallspeed ratio for mario combos.

I put at the bottom because i feel out of all the FE characters, he has the most problems with pills. like marth can double fair, Ike's nair is really good for dealing with pills and he has QD so he can approach in and out. Roy has to be more conscious of himself when he deals with pills. Out of the other FE characters Roy has the laggier move set as well.

Also dude go to the MU thread give it some life(any mario main for that matter. seriously ask questions or put in your 2 cents it could never hurt.)

 

[Boiko]

Haha this post is silly.

1. The grab in this video doesn't work if you have any idea how to mash at all. Way too many idle frames with the dash, turnaround, dash back. If someone is doing this to you...just mash? It won't work until like 150%.

2. Nana is still dumb and easy to kill, she just doesn't run off the edge and kill herself like in melee.

3. IC's have horrible match-ups with a lot of the cast. This is not indicative of a high tier character when you have like three near unwinnable match-ups that are fairly common.

A lot of people underrate IC's because they don't understand much about them. A lot of people also overrate them for this reason because they don't understand proper counterplay. IC's not being able to turn around hurts them way more than having this infinite helps them. WAY more. The infinite is dumb yes...which is why it's being removed. It doesn't instantly make them high tier though in a cast of characters that have so many tools against them.

1.) Yes, it does. He's since optimized it to be quite a bit faster. He's gotten it on me, at low percentages, where I mashed my brains out. It's guaranteed, period. The only part of it that's not is the dair, because it can be SDI'd.

2.) Nana is not nearly as easy to kill as she is in melee. Popo can go significantly deeper to bring her back. Plus, she'll actually use recovery moves to stall her recovery even longer. Can she still be easy to kill sometimes? Sure. Is she always easy to kill like Samus down smash at the ledge at zero? No.

3.) I'm not sure what match ups you find horrible. I know they don't have an easy time with Tink, Samus, Fox, Peach.. But they stil have a solid neutral game, great mobility, strong kill options, disjoint, and a great recovery to boot. Oh yeah, and a a zero to death anywhere on the stage.

I understand ICs plenty. Phresh is part of NYC who I play with all of the time. Also, GP, my main training partner is another ICs player. I've seen maybe two to three instances where the pivot glitch has come into play. I've seen way more infinite handoffs than that.

 

[Xcite]

@ Jonyc128

is a problem because of his mobility and how he plays neutral. His disgusting power makes it so he can kill us kinda early. We are at a decent combo weight for him(esp. Nair). He can chain grab us. in short he's just good lolz.. Though i will say once mario wins neutral he can do alot of damage. Ike is at a decent weight/fallspeed ratio for mario combos.

Doesn't Mario's fireballs act as an effective counter against Ike's QD?

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Doesn't Mario's fireballs act as an effective counter against Ike's QD?

Thats assuming Ike is trying to approach using just QD. Ike has many options out of QD. Most notable WD back, Nair.

Obviously if the ike player relied to much on QD options, mario could stuff him out. If the ike is playing smartly(which i usually assume in an explanation). He can make QD work very well for him in the MU especially with good DD and spacing.

 

[Xcite]

Thats assuming Ike is trying to approach using just QD. Ike has many options out of QD. Most notable WD back, Nair.

I would think that Nair has enough amount of endlag for some sort of punish by Mario. Although I can see what you mean, especially if Ike is using auto-cancel Nair.

 

[PlateProp]

@ Jonyc128

I have it as , , .

is the hardest for reasons ive stated in this thread and in the MU thread.

is a problem because of his mobility and how he plays neutral. His disgusting power makes it so he can kill us kinda early. We are at a decent combo weight for him(esp. Nair). He can chain grab us. in short he's just good lolz.. Though i will say once mario wins neutral he can do alot of damage. Ike is at a decent weight/fallspeed ratio for mario combos.

I put at the bottom because i feel out of all the FE characters, he has the most problems with pills. like marth can double fair, Ike's nair is really good for dealing with pills and he has QD so he can approach in and out. Roy has to be more conscious of himself when he deals with pills. Out of the other FE characters Roy has the laggier move set as well.

Also dude go to the MU thread give it some life(any mario main for that matter. seriously ask questions or put in your 2 cents it could never hurt.)

Ike is slower that Roy, and Roy can SHFFL Fair to deal with fireballs pretty easily

 

[CORY]

@ Jonyc128

Out of the other FE characters Roy has the laggier move set as well.

http://smashboards.com/threads/roy-frame-data-3-02.349876/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ike-frame-data-3-02.350437/
http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-frame-data.356485/

not really seeing it... he's pretty similar to marth, frame wise. ike's moves are overall slower (at least aerials. his nair has nice startup, though. if the projectile is lower, however, it doesn't hit there until later in the move).

 

[D e l t a]

In all honestly, Spacies are the LEAST of Lucas' worries. His punish game is absurd on Spacies and has super easy 0-70% true combos on most stages. The only hard part is getting a grab, but magnet -> aerial still accumulates quick 20% plus it lwads into a followup (like grab).

Fox- this MU is about even or Lucas' favor. The biggest worries are Nair & shine taking his UpB or double jump. Lucas combos & ledge guards Fox easily.
Lasers do little in neutral bc of magnet. Lucas won't magnet in SH Nair range and Fox shouldnt laser in that range anyway. If Lucas gets hit by one shine, yes he will typically go flying away and lose stage control, but fox can't convert very well from a shine (similar to vs Luigi / Sopo).

Falco- only major part of this MU are lasers & SH aerials again. Falco's Nair & Dair can catch Lucas really well and goes straight thru PKF. Once Falco goes near the off stage area, one PKF makes him fall just enough that he can't use SideB to recovery. At that point, Lucas demolishes his puny UpB. I'd say this MU is maybe 55/45 Falco favor at worst.

Wolf- easiest of the 3 IMO. His pressure & combos don't work that well on Lucas as much as people would think. Despite Lucas' weight & fall speed that allow for easy combos, Wolf doesn't exactly get those easy followups on Lucas, strangely enough. A couple quick hits and Wolf is easily off stage and gets punished hard on his recovery. Not to mention his CC gets negated by safe Lucas pressure. Off of most aerials, Lucas can keep Wolf in hit stun long enough that he can convert into the next attack. Only true difficulty is the blaster, which again can be avoided if the Lucas player is smart in neutral. Easily 55/45 Lucas' favor if not better

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Ike is slower that Roy, and Roy can SHFFL Fair to deal with fireballs pretty easily

You are exactly right about roy. Ike nair can cover him from behind as well so a runaway Nair can also cover ike. Ike nair is just so good for fireballs.

The question Jonyc asked for my was opinion and i gave it. I could easily be wrong. To be objective my opinon may be skewed by the fact that my region has 2 good ikes(MLGF for one). I Havent personally experienced fighting a high level roy.

]http://smashboards.com/threads/roy-frame-data-3-02.349876/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ike-frame-data-3-02.350437/
http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-frame-data.356485/
.

Also given all this info i can say i was wrong. Marth > Roy > Ike in mario MU. My B.

 

[Player -0]

Ike's Nair is pretty bad when dealing with fireballs. Have you tried using it?

Roy is prob. harder because his Neutral is better vs. Mario.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Ike's Nair is pretty bad when dealing with fireballs. Have you tried using it?

Roy is prob. harder because his Neutral is better vs. Mario.

I don't think Ike's Nair is that bad.......Though i have had a change of heart and overall i agree with you.