Tier List Speculation

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Y'all complaining about the entire character of Sanic and I'm just here wishing Flamethrower wasn't so ***.

Seriously, in a perfect scenario if you are hit by the flames you have a +16 frame advantage over Zard at minimum.

Another thing i don't like about Flame Thrower is all the ghost hit boxes or whatever you call it at the end. It just feels so damn weak.

 

[JOE!]

Another thing i don't like about Flame Thrower is all the ghost hit boxes or whatever you call it at the end. It just feels so damn weak.

The intention of that was to make it not-dumb when at the ledge where you could at times trap people for 30497230587235%, but still that change then made it super dumb. I'd much rather have Bowser's fire with the ability to land-cancel, push peeps away, and the bite so that its at least a spacing option.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's possible the few sets I've played against my local (competent) sonic players weren't representative of the lamest (and most effective) way to play sonic

Assuming you're talking about Karma, at least in part? I played a couple games against her when I was passing through a while back. I'd say her neutral still needs some work. Most surprising thing about our matches though (friendlies, but still) was that she kept going offstage for edgeguards and thus failed to edgeguard me at all - I expected better knowledge of the ZSS matchup given that she's in your region. Didn't play Mewtwo against her, but I know Garr beat her not too long ago.

All PMDT is doing is making people have to relearn an average character with every patch.

If anything Sonic has blatantly NOT been average from a balance standpoint pre-3.5, so this statement is more than a little out of place.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

All PMDT is doing is making people have to relearn an average character with every patch.

If anything the only character you had to relearn majorly was probably Ganon. He probably had the most changes done with the 3.5 patch in terms of move set.

 

[Vitriform]

If anything the only character you had to relearn majorly was probably Ganon. He probably had the most changes done with the 3.5 patch in terms of move set.

I'd say Zelda and ZSS were way more changed than Ganon. The only things changed on Ganon in terms of core gameplay were the sword taunt, which is used mosly for disrespect anyway, and the float/cape, which replaced the Warlock punch (which was also mostly used for disrespect).

 

[eideeiit]

If anything the only character you had to relearn majorly was probably Ganon. He probably had the most changes done with the 3.5 patch in terms of move set.

...

Oh my god.

 

[Player -0]

Karma's neutral game isn't quite there in my opinion. She has some stuff to work on but she's still getting some results (actually idk if she is but AFAIK she did well at MSM5 and stuff.

Personally I'm not confused in the slightest which move is which for Sonic. The audio, visual, and spacial ques are fine for me. For example if Sonic is in the air his Nair "tightens up" while his Side B alters his trajectory slightly and is more smooth.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I know I consider him top 20 at least, especially after watching Vectorman play PM Yoshi the other day. Although what's keeping him from top 10 imo is that footstools screw him over big time lol

=)

I plan on playing more. I'm finally after 5 long years am near AZ scene. =)

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

...

Oh my god.

Yeah i know, poorly worded, and i don't care about it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not poorly worded, just wrong

 

[NyTR0]

I feel bad for some Ganon mains that I know. They tell me about how they don't like the float much and what not. I feel like ZSS and Link took a hard beating as well.

 

[Soft Serve]

Why would you feel bad about them getting only buffs and more tools? Feel bad for the pits and the olimars that got completely destroyed lol. Or the MKs, ZSSs, Squirtles, etc that lost so many tools.

 

[CORY]

I feel bad for some Ganon mains that I know. They tell me about how they don't like the float much and what not.

They're dumb.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ganon basically has a "do nothing" option now while airborne anywhere; it's kind of really good for a character whose most effective normals by far are his aerials
If you know some Ganon mains that don't like it, they aren't using it well

 

[Player -0]

Link's playstyle was hardly changed. A couple of changes hurt him but his playstyle hasn't been changed. I'm 90% sure you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[DrugsM2]

Jesus christ... I look in here every few months and look in at the worst time.

1. Anyone can differentiate sonic's down-b and side-b if they spent literally 5 minutes using them in training mode, the differences are extremely clear both visually and movement wise and NAIR IS AN AERIAL, that one i dont think gets confused but... just incase... its a ****ing sex kick people.

2. Sonic's priority has nothing to do with how good he is (see Fox)

3. Sonic literally doesent have to approach you ever if hes in the lead and because of how many different angles he can whiff punish you from while dashing around and wavelanding to platforms its very difficult to catch sonic while not getting punished. Even from behind when he has to approach sonic can force whiffs on speed alone and often catch people off guard because his approach distance is close to the longest in the game with Sh fair.

4. Sonic is Fox that kills with gimps and off the side rather then gimp and off the top

5. Sonic is high tier, 3 frame jumpsquat and fox level speeds aswell as good fast options tell me he could be nothing but high tier or higher. Not to mention the numerous guaranteed kill set ups he has off dair spikes and nair sweet spots from tilts/grabs

6. Side-b does not break CC, just shield and buffer a roll or spot dodge. soooooooo just hold shield and both your sticks down lol

7. Yes it is very difficult to juggle a semi floaty that can move around as quickly as fox and has even better aerial movement options i agree

8. Sonic doesent force you to shield, he forces you to never do anything unsafe because hell be on top of you if you do and even if you do shield, if i see someone start shielding vs me i have plenty of shield pressure options to discourage that habit very quickly

9. Sonic plays similar to fox in neutral, they both keep a far safe spacing with dash dancing and then move into a hyper aggressive spacing when given the chance.

10. Is Sonic really getting changed? I never played other versions of the character but hes extremely well designed right now i'd say. Fundamentals reign supreme on sonic hes just fox with different strengths

I dunno everything i wrote and i dunno if i even covered all the posts but whatever, just inputting my 2 cents since ive been working extensively on the character since i started

 

[Foo]

Assuming you're talking about Karma, at least in part? I played a couple games against her when I was passing through a while back. I'd say her neutral still needs some work. Most surprising thing about our matches though (friendlies, but still) was that she kept going offstage for edgeguards and thus failed to edgeguard me at all - I expected better knowledge of the ZSS matchup given that she's in your region. Didn't play Mewtwo against her, but I know Garr beat her not too long ago.


If anything Sonic has blatantly NOT been average from a balance standpoint pre-3.5, so this statement is more than a little out of place.

Karma in part, yes, but also about Kai, the third ranked player in NC. I haven't played him much, but I took a set off of him the first time we played (he played sonic 3 games, diddy once) but then he whooped me in grand finals. I was REALLY drained in grand finals (I was so pumped after I beat kai, my brain was like "we did it, we won, it's over, time to sleep"), so I would have lost to just about anyone remotely decent, but he's apparently imfamous for adaptation and stuff, so he may have beaten me second set anyway.

Anywho, he's a super good player and he's more who I was basing it off of, as karma generally plays a lot more aggressive and kai plays really patiently. It was partially based off karma, though. Also, she's never really tried to edgeguard me off stage, must of been friendlies tech she was trying. Usually she just (futilely) tries to drop a spring on my head.

HAHAHAHA lolno

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Open the spoiler.

I feel bad for some Ganon mains that I know. They tell me about how they don't like the float much and what not. I feel like ZSS and Link took a hard beating as well.

Why would you feel bad for ganon players because they got one of the coolest moves in the game?

If anything the only character you had to relearn majorly was probably Ganon. He probably had the most changes done with the 3.5 patch in terms of move set.

***** PLEASE ZSS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTER NOW

@ NyTR0 Sonic recovery, bad? Are you high? Also, sonic is by far the fasted character in the game. He can punish basically any move, no matter how low lag. Unless it's shine or something, you have time for punish and you don't need to trade.

 

[Blazing Ambition]

I miss 3.0 Falcon kick. It was a fun, satisfying combo ender that I'd happily trade for falcon getting a less ridiculous up-throw.
Just say it was uh...
"Reverted to melee" If you get what I'm saying...

 

[.alizarin]

lmao

What recovery? Oh you mean the one that doesn't sweetspot? Or do you mean the one that's unsafe to use cause it doesn't trade. Please. Getting stuff done with Sonic can be a mission while other characters still have so many free things. You actually expected me to read this thread from like the first comment or something? Get real. I walked in here thinking it was a tier list speculation not a thread full of ***ttalking on peoples mains claiming how they're too good just cause they can't handle a mu. There's a pause button. Too OP. Remove pls.

You are clearly very ignorant about your own character.

by the way even if sonic's recovery was bad (it's not...), you responded to none of my other points lmao

 

[Ningildo]

Being passive aggressive just makes people defensive and unwilling to listen to you, so uh...

Stop being dismissive jerks, maybe? It might promote discussion.

 

[Player -0]

Karma in part, yes, but also about Kai, the third ranked player in NC. I haven't played him much, but I took a set off of him the first time we played (he played sonic 3 games, diddy once) but then he whooped me in grand finals. I was REALLY drained in grand finals (I was so pumped after I beat kai, my brain was like "we did it, we won, it's over, time to sleep"), so I would have lost to just about anyone remotely decent, but he's apparently imfamous for adaptation and stuff, so he may have beaten me second set anyway.

Anywho, he's a super good player and he's more who I was basing it off of, as karma generally plays a lot more aggressive and kai plays really patiently. It was partially based off karma, though. Also, she's never really tried to edgeguard me off stage, must of been friendlies tech she was trying. Usually she just (futilely) tries to drop a spring on my head.

Sonic can't punish EVERY move (well obv. lol). From a whiffed move he can start applying a lot of "pressure" though. The amount of pressure is a bit more than from simple dash dancing because of the user of the whiffed move wanting to make sure Sonic doesn't get in, resulting in hasty decisions/"Pressure." This can lead into lolcombos. Fox/Falcon/Lolinsertcharacter also does this though.

Is anything happening in NC in Charlotte/Asheville besides the 2 day event thing soon-ish? Also are there weeklies? Should prob just pm you.

Edit - Fixed up a bit

 

[Soft Serve]

Jesus christ... I look in here every few months and look in at the worst time.

1. Anyone can differentiate sonic's down-b and side-b if they spent literally 5 minutes using them in training mode, the differences are extremely clear both visually and movement wise and NAIR IS AN AERIAL, that one i dont think gets confused but... just incase... its a ****ing sex kick people.

Don't really have much to say about the rest (and yeah side-b/down B are really different) but the differences between side-b, dash attack and nair are all very small. dash attack hits frame 2, side-b hits frame 5, sh instant nair hits frame 7. Yeah, if he starts a significant distance from you, you can indeed react to the differences and act accordingly. But all these moves are so fast that sonic can stay ambiguous until he picks and option, and then he most likely will cross up. They are three very fast, visually similar moves that have different responses needed if you try to do things preemptively.

I'm not saying those need to be nerfed, but visually its really frustrating/jarring.

 

[Player -0]

If you look at the frame data for where it hits then it looks the same but if you look at Sonic/what he's doing it becomes really clear.

Idk, no problems here.

 

[jtm94]

@ Player -0
Yall nerds didn't think I would do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k03UG9KpMpM&feature=youtu.be
^Video of SideB breaking CC at 0^
So SideB does not break Bowser crouch armor, but I thought it did because the Bowsers I've seen try to dtilt Sonic out of SideB and that forfeits his armor and he gets dragged along anyways. UpB out of crouch seems like it should work and he can fade away from Sonic, but that might be punishable unless he grabs ledge. Too many variables to calculate with certainty.

Saying Sonic's DownB/SideB have endlag is hilarious. My training partner was laughing too hard at that, he can escape a juggle with SideB then wavedash out of it.
I understand the Sonic vs GnW dynamic as we talked it out and it is as I described. He can approach with spins with a lot of safety because as I said he can react to all of my options before I do them. If I am crouching he can go high, if I jump he avoids me and so forth. His spins and approaches are also fast enough that I can't react to them unless initiated from across the stage. I confirmed that his frustrations against Zelda are that I can shield and bait an anti-shield option from him such as SideB > grab, but I can aerial him out of shield fast enough that it is so late into his option tree that he cannot change course thus randomly eating kicks for baited approaches.

Sonic's SideB and dash attack are too fast for me to react to personally, but his DownB does have startup. I try to stuff full-speed short hops at me with sex kicks, but it will lose to fair if he chooses that.

 

[FreeGamer]

Link's playstyle was hardly changed. A couple of changes hurt him but his playstyle hasn't been changed. I'm 90% sure you don't know what you're talking about.

What if my Link playstyle prior to 3.5 was literally Boomerang spam? I know I'd have to change it then.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Karma in part, yes, but also about Kai, the third ranked player in NC. I haven't played him much, but I took a set off of him the first time we played (he played sonic 3 games, diddy once) but then he whooped me in grand finals. I was REALLY drained in grand finals (I was so pumped after I beat kai, my brain was like "we did it, we won, it's over, time to sleep"), so I would have lost to just about anyone remotely decent, but he's apparently imfamous for adaptation and stuff, so he may have beaten me second set anyway.

Anywho, he's a super good player and he's more who I was basing it off of, as karma generally plays a lot more aggressive and kai plays really patiently. It was partially based off karma, though. Also, she's never really tried to edgeguard me off stage, must of been friendlies tech she was trying. Usually she just (futilely) tries to drop a spring on my head.

Ah, I forgot you had two PR'd Sonics in NC. And yeah, she literally tried everything but grabbing ledge. Spring gimps are great and all but not necessarily against ZSS

 

[Foo]

Ah, I forgot you had two PR'd Sonics in NC. And yeah, she literally tried everything but grabbing ledge. Spring gimps are great and all but not necessarily against ZSS

Actually, she's not PR'd. She may be next season (which is very soon) since she's always improving and I've stopped entering events, but she isn't now and has never been on the PR. All I know about the next PR is it's only going to have 8 spots this time, and someone on the panel said "someone is going to be very happy they are on the PR" so that could be her. Also, shhhhhhh, don't tell my region about grabbing ledge. At the moment, only like 3 PR'd players and nobody else actually know to do that lol. (here's the current and soon to be outdated PR http://smashboards.com/threads/north-carolina-project-m-power-rankings-updated-3-12-15.386882/)

 

[Player -0]

Cool that you did a video, could you upload a match between the two of you then? I'd like to see some of the complaints in a match or two.

Now about the video:

Spoiler

- In the description you mention a specific point in which Fair would be used. I was confused on how in any ground encounter Fair could be used to break the CC. Initiated from the ledge and used like that, yes, it can lead into a grab if done quickly. Now that I see where this complaint comes from I'm kind of reconfirming my belief that it's fine. In this specific situation Sonic can't do a rising Fair because he won't get the meteor hitbox. You can say, that doesn't matter it's only a couple frames before he fast falls Fair to grab but it does. Not exactly sure on this but from instinct/lolplaygame in the video/normal game Sonic would lose his invincibility at the peak of his jump. This point also happens to be where Sonic starts his Fair (actually a bit earlier, the very top hitbox should come out in a couple frames). In a typical edgeguarding situation (let's use Sheik because you used her in the video) Sheik would be SH'ing to cover a ledge dash (get Faired). If Sonic did the ledgehop Fair then he would get stuffed by Sheik's Fair. If Sonic switched up the timing so that Sheik was landing Sheik would just F-Tilt, a trade at worst (and still favors Sheik). Sonics typically mixup between (at least I do) a ledgejump -> WL to platform escape, ledgedash -> grab/whatev, or a spin mixup (Side B or spinshot prob). If Sonics do a rising Fair from an Up-B then he's rising so lol and it doesn't affect the edgeguard pretty much (He should get Naired/Faired anyway). I'll go into more detail on Sonic edgeguarding if you seem to have trouble (if you upload a match between you guys).

- Regarding Side B. From what I can tell Sheik can escape the grab followup from it, I don't have a Wii + Person on me so I can't do anything about a video though. If I can get anything on it later I'll do that. For now I'm just letting it roll (roll, Sonic, going to do feel bad for doing that accidentally). Regarding the dumbness on Bowser I'm assuming you were just showing that to show how lolzy Bowser's armor is and how he has no options (besides Up-B). If it were a normal character it would be fine (lolNairunlessyou'reZeldaorG&Winwhichcasefeelbadbecauseyou'reZelda/G&W). Speaking of which the Sonic's non-float Side B game wasn't on point. This further reminds me @ SpiderMad can Sonic do the Side B -> Nair -> Side B thing still or did the IASA frames mess it up?

- Regarding endlag on Side B/Down B. Both Zelda and G&W are slow, yeah they can't really juggle Sonic. They can't really juggle ZSS or M2 either though (Unless sick DACUS read by G&W on SV or something, not really a juggle though). Down B has endlag, you can punish it if you aren't a slow character (you kind of just want to Nair it during the duration though). If Sonic has a DJ then DJ -> Side B or whatever yeah. If he doesn't have a DJ and Side B's to the ground (just assume SV so don't factor in platforms) you can follow the Side B and then punish the WD endlag (unless you're slow af. G&W DACUS though?).

- Neutral game as slow character vs. Sonic: You're screwed. Then again, what slow character isn't screwed by fast moving characters that can bait everything? G&W: Try to move slowly forward while being ready to D-Tilt/Jab. If he jumps at you then retreating Fair/WD Back. If you're just ending a move then mash shield/Up-B/whatev.

- Fair should only really trade if he predicts the direction you drift while you're Nairing/Fairing. If you stay still while doing the Nair then yeah, it'll trade pretty much every time.

- Regarding the Down B mash thing and you're trying to CC. You can start mashing Down B on a standing person and they can move to a CC. Once they move to a CC they can shield. Once they shield if Sonic stops charging then free grab. Once Sonic is forced to release WD then follow because lol. Down B mash -> knockdown shouldn't really ever happen. I learned that Sonic can cancel the turn around animation with the shield "cancel" though (or that's what it looked like at 1:03 at least).

- There's a space between the "r" and the hyphen. It's supposed to be Player Negative Zero not Player-Zero

I probably skipped over some stuff.

 

[SpiderMad]

They changed his moves duration or whatever, it doesn't work anymore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw

 

[Player -0]

They changed his moves duration or whatever, it doesn't work anymore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw

I thought they only changed the IASA of Nair? Can you not with Bair anymore either?

 

[DrugsM2]

Don't really have much to say about the rest (and yeah side-b/down B are really different) but the differences between side-b, dash attack and nair are all very small. dash attack hits frame 2, side-b hits frame 5, sh instant nair hits frame 7. Yeah, if he starts a significant distance from you, you can indeed react to the differences and act accordingly. But all these moves are so fast that sonic can stay ambiguous until he picks and option, and then he most likely will cross up. They are three very fast, visually similar moves that have different responses needed if you try to do things preemptively.

I'm not saying those need to be nerfed, but visually its really frustrating/jarring.

Hey man, sorry, 3 frame nair, 5 frame side-b, 2 frame dash attack, i agree thats pretty hard to react too but unless youre changing those start ups then i dont get how it would help if they were more visually different, youre gonna use the same option for all 3 just based on start up time, if you see it comming then exactly they ARE visually different and thus you can react.

So are you basically saying sonics really good to the point these built in mix ups need to be nerfed or what?

I'm pretty sure this is why PMDT changes the audio cues to be different, audio plays on frame 2 so you can react with the audio

 

[SpiderMad]

I thought they only changed the IASA of Nair? Can you not with Bair anymore either?

That's what the changelog concurs, but I'll check sometime. I can't remember if the Nair or Bair was harder to get the side-b

Squirtle had his gravity and such changed every version to ruin his double aerials the most
https://youtu.be/IeLklmmYyNk?t=101
He's a shell of what he use to be, and nobody will ever know since everyone sucks at early/double aerials

 

[Foo]

Basically, from what I gather, sonic moves are kind of like shiek's dthrow and bthrow mixup. While there are technically enough frames to react to the dthrow while preding bthrow, but some of the startup is really hard to distinguish the difference in time, making it effectively impossible to react to in time.

Basically, while you CAN tell the difference between sonic's spin moves, it's effectively lengthens the amount of time it takes for a human to react. Honestly, the only way I can tell any of the spin moves apart is via sound. That's the way I do it.

 

[Player -0]

I think not being able to hear audio cues is a valid concern. In tournaments hearing the TV (unless you have headphones) becomes pretty much impossible. A small visual cue being added would help this.

Edit - Spidermad is nerfed every update.

You can tell what move Sonic is going to do 90% of the time by his positioning. In SF people know people are going for throws because they walk forward/really close to the opponent. It's a similar concept to Sonic's dash attack. The end hitbox is negligible and easily punished. So if Sonic keeps running at you chances are that he's going for grab, dash attack, shield, or lolidekjank. The right reaction if you see him becoming a ball is to retreating Nair/Fair most of the time.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Also, shhhhhhh, don't tell my region about grabbing ledge.

I tell everyone about grabbing ledge. Sooner people wise up the more it'll be understood how ridiculously free 3.5 tether mechanics are, and the better I have to play because everyone around me is correcting their mistakes and getting better at the matchup. There's no better way to get good than to improve your peers. Crab mentality hurts everyone.

 

[DrugsM2]

Basically, while you CAN tell the difference between sonic's spin moves, it's effectively lengthens the amount of time it takes for a human to react. Honestly, the only way I can tell any of the spin moves apart is via sound. That's the way I do it.

So youre using the built in counter play the devs gave you?

 

[Foo]

So youre using the built in counter play the devs gave you?

The built in tool you can't use in crowded tournament venues? Yeah, when I can... Kinda sucks that you can't use it when it matters most...

I tell everyone about grabbing ledge. Sooner people wise up the more it'll be understood how ridiculously free 3.5 tether mechanics are, and the better I have to play because everyone around me is correcting their mistakes and getting better at the matchup. There's no better way to get good than to improve your peers. Crab mentality hurts everyone.

I was just kidding. I tell people, they just don't listen. Besides, as I said, I don't enter in bracket anymore. I try to actually figure out everyone's tricks and try to share it with everyone to make our region better faster. For instance, everyone was getting wrecked by Archer (link) doing dthrow to jab jab grab, so I figured out how to get out of it and then started teaching people how to beat it. I've also been teaching people how to wavedash catch items to help beat Kai's diddy and Stingers's Peach.

 

[jtm94]

Thanks for the input and responding to the video.
It was simply to show what I was talking about, I did not make the video in any way to show/discover what options Sheik in particular has against Sonic. It was only to showcase the interaction of Sonic's SideB and crouch cancelling. I was incorrect about SideB breaking Bowser's armor at 0 and Sheik vs DownB didn't really have anything to do with what was discussed prior, just extra footage I had.

With that aside I was never talking about Sonic to prove in some way that he was broken or needed changed. I was merely presenting things the character can do against everyone and along the way the conversation devolved into us talking about GnW/Sheik/Zelda vs Sonic.

I just wanted to bring up how he's a pain to fight because of his fast moves and ability to have option-selects in most scenarios that cannot be reacted to and that he has really good attributes at his disposal that provide strong anti options against things that most characters find issue with.

 

[Agi]

Sooner people wise up the better I have to play because everyone around me is correcting their mistakes and getting better at the matchup. There's no better way to get good than to improve your peers. Crab mentality hurts everyone.

I want to give this multiple likes

 

[DrugsM2]

Thanks for the input and responding to the video.
It was simply to show what I was talking about, I did not make the video in any way to show/discover what options Sheik in particular has against Sonic. It was only to showcase the interaction of Sonic's SideB and crouch cancelling. I was incorrect about SideB breaking Bowser's armor at 0 and Sheik vs DownB didn't really have anything to do with what was discussed prior, just extra footage I had.

With that aside I was never talking about Sonic to prove in some way that he was broken or needed changed. I was merely presenting things the character can do against everyone and along the way the conversation devolved into us talking about GnW/Sheik/Zelda vs Sonic.

I just wanted to bring up how he's a pain to fight because of his fast moves and ability to have option-selects in most scenarios that cannot be reacted to and that he has really good attributes at his disposal that provide strong anti options against things that most characters find issue with.

sooooooo sonic players... are playing... a good character? The autistic ones? are you sure hes not just broken?