Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

ive been picking up flaco lately and hes pretty fun

i think hes the worst spacie but boy does he like brawl tech. things like dthrow techchase dacus (rip gatling) are pretty nice and rar bair and wavebounced lasers is really good. also, shine footstool is swaggy as heck but its completely unpractical cus dair does the same thing lmao

 

[Warzenschwein]

How can you even go back to Melee flaco after playing PM flaco, Melee flaco doesn't have ****, like how do you even move without B-Reversing and Wavebouncing lasers. Stupid unrefined ****tergame, Samurai y did you burden us.

 

[nimigoha]

Grabbing ledge from the stage with side B as well, iirc 8 frame window for Falco and 2 for Fox.

I do miss Gatling though.

 

[jtm94]

I really want to have a serious discussion about Sonic now.

Inb4 learn the MU, I've been playing this MU for over a year through various updates with my main training partner who is a Sonic main.

No idea how people continually say this character got over nerfed repeatedly. He wasn't that bad in 2.6 bar lacking a KO move and his recovery was actually infinite. 3.0 he was given amazing KO options in nair and uair, but had a worse recovery because homing attack range was decreased, and finally in 3.5 homing attack range was increased slightly, but made to put him in special fall if he doesn't lock on and the pivot hitboxes of DownB were removed.

So this is relevant to Tier List Speculation because of how his movement gives him the ability to deal with any unfavorable MU. He has the speed to maneuver around nearly any character not Falcon/Fox, but in those MUs he has more than standard 0 deaths on both of them with his ability to carry any character to the ledge via spins or throws. This ability makes his MUs against characters with weaker recovery extremely volatile like Sheik because there's very little she can do off stage against him. I do not directly think that these characters lose to Sonic, but his movement can completely invalidate the neutral options of most of the cast.

1. He has one of the few godly movement options left in the game in the form of SideB. This move completely breaks crouch and forces knockdown at 0 against EVERY character. Not only does it break crouch, but has incredibly fast startup coupled with the ability to JC out of it into grab or wavedash. This move is hard to punish when shielded, yet the move seemingly forces you into shield where he can still JC grab you. It's one of the few moves where he has option-selects for every options you may choose to try and counter it. The only way to escape follow ups is to SDI into the ground and tech behind him. If you tech in place the hitboxes pull you back into it. Also it sends you extremely low off stage and cancels when he goes off edges with it so he can fair/dair/spring. The move is extremely rewarding for it's overall low commitment.

2. In the air he cannot jump out of it, but it allows him to move so spontaneously in the air that he is near impossible to juggle with anything that isn't a true combo. His spin movement options coupled with his fast run speed make it so that you cannot leverage any form of meaningful position against him because he can escape in either horizontal direction the moment he escapes hit stun(similar to ROB). This in tandem with his dive kick means you are hard pressed to keep him in the air.

3. The character forces you into shield. He does not have dash dance > knee like Falcon does, but he has nearly as devastating combos being that uthrow leads into every aerial as long as you follow/react to the DI. If he can force knockdown on stage he can/should take you off stage off of that single interaction. His spins are near completely safe on shield and because of his options out of them you are hard pressed to hit him out of the spin unless you have moves faster than 5 frames that he cannot react to and jump. Anything slow than that won't be fast enough to hit him oos as all of his aerials are -6 on shield(dair) or better, such as +2 nair. From my own experience and from what I've gathered from others you feel helpless against him and will fall into the pattern of throwing out moves hoping Sonic will run into them. Playing against him does not feel like smash.

I really don't know any of his losing MUs because I've yet to find a character that can handle what he puts out other than Zelda because she punishes over aggression. They say Sheik and GnW have a slight edge against him, but I do not condone using either of them against him because GnW's slow aerials aren't fast enough to react to anything Sonic does and Sheik dies off stage/grabbing him is impossible. I have honestly been trying SO HARD for all this time to find a way to interact in a meaningful way against this character and I still find myself occasionally being overwhelmed by his incredible options/punish game.

TL:DR because people are lazy
This is not a grasp at attention or call to action against Sonic. I do not think he is the best in the game or near it, but I am incredibly curious as to how other people have approached this character and how players of other characters feel against him in general.

 

[Dakpo]

"Nerfing" players like Dakpo isn't a valid argument.

I disagree, nerfing me is literally the most valid argument I've ever heard. @Strong Bad @Lunchables

 

[Ariyo]

sanic is 2 fast

While I don't agree with everything here, I do agree that Sonic could still stand to have his moveset looked at. It's only a matter of time before some player starts to abuse his lack of commitment for the worst.

 

[EmptySky00]

sanic 2 fast

That wasn't even a good/funny summary of what he said, it was just condescending sounding. There was more that he wanted to discuss other than him being fast. What in particular don't you want to agree with? There's no furthering of discussion if you just vaguely say you don't agree with anything aside from a few points without touching on them.

 

[jtm94]

It's just like how Zelda was changed because she wasn't fun to play against even though she still wasn't good. It was just in general not fun to face and violated how smash works.

My problems don't come from sonic as a whole, just the incredible attributes of his spin moves coupled with his other amazing attributes. I don't have a problem in any way with his speed, but he can already crossup shields with things like fair and nair, why does he have safe spins too? Why doesn't he have to face CCing just as every other character has to? He already has a godly JC grab and a fair meteor that breaks CC and leads into grabs at 0, but SideB does everything on top of that. I can't find an effective means to combat the entirety that is Sonic.

 

[EmptySky00]

Coupled with the fact that Sonic literally never has to commit to do anything. People like to say you just throw out a sex kick nair to beat his spins, but that's assuming the Sonic player is trying to force aggression like an idiot when he literally never has to. It's not like he's ever forced to deal with any form of positional disadvantage the opponent imposes on him. He can just wait for his opponent to do something then play reactionary. In theory, Sonic shouldn't even be getting hit unless he ****s up.

 

[JOE!]

Why doesn't he have to face CCing just as every other character has to? .

 

[Ariyo]

That wasn't even a good/funny summary of what he said, it was just condescending sounding. There was more that he wanted to discuss other than him being fast. What in particular don't you want to agree with? There's no furthering of discussion if you just vaguely say you don't agree with anything aside from a few points without touching on them.

I think you're thinking too hard about this. To clarify, I feel that his specials lack enough commitment for their reward.
I don't know how you misunderstood as jtm's post was mostly about Sonic's risk/reward and that's what I was agreeing with.

 

[Player -0]

Hold up. I'm 90% sure that 50% of the stuff you just said is wrong.
- Fair meteor and Side B breaking CC at 0%? Video evidence please. Even if it did it leads to grabs? No
- 3.5 changes changes included a lot more than "Homing Attack changes" and "Down B turnaround hitboxes."
*Up Air was nerfed a lot as a killing move
*Recovery hurt a lot (it's still pretty good).
*Both Up-B and Dair made less safe due to startup and endlag of each respective. Dair also falls slower, adding to it not being as useful anymore as a get away tool.
*Various other changes to give Sonic more commitment on moves
- I think you're highly overestimating Down-B as a move. It being "safe on shield" is a huge hyperbole. First, it gives up Sonic's stage control (if he has any), he needs to roll for quite a bit before exiting it in order to be safe, when exiting Down-B it can be opted to retreat to a platform (give up more stage control/allow a juggle), shield cancel (has endlag), or jump Dair (still endlag). Unless you're playing slow af characters you should be able to punish this fine or set up for a situation that allows a punish. How is Sonic Down-B'ing into your shield in the first place? The startup is 11 frames (still tap B more times for stuff) and then travel speed. This is more than enough time for a Nair.
- More stuff but I want responses to above stuff first.

Edit - Wrong button. Still typing lol.

 

[Chevy]

I lived with a Sonic main for a month and I still don't know the difference between side and down b.

Also n-air, and up-smash, and double jump, etc.

 

[jtm94]

Hold up. I'm 90% sure that 50% of the stuff you just said is wrong.
- Fair meteor and Side B breaking CC at 0%? Video evidence please. Even if it did it leads to grabs? No
- 3.5 changes changes included a lot more than "Homing Attack changes" and "Down B turnaround hitboxes."
*Up Air was nerfed a lot as a killing move
*Recovery hurt a lot (it's still pretty good).
*Both Up-B and Dair made less safe due to startup and endlag of each respective. Dair also falls slower, adding to it not being as useful anymore as a get away tool.
*Various other changes to give Sonic more commitment on moves
- I think you're highly overestimating Down-B as a move. It being "safe on shield" is a huge hyperbole. First, it gives up Sonic's stage control (if he has any), he needs to roll for quite a bit before exiting it in order to be safe, when exiting Down-B it can be opted to retreat to a platform (give up more stage control/allow a juggle), shield cancel (has endlag), or jump Dair (still endlag). Unless you're playing slow af characters you should be able to punish this fine or set up for a situation that allows a punish. How is Sonic Down-B'ing into your shield in the first place? The startup is 11 frames (still tap B more times for stuff) and then travel speed. This is more than enough time for a Nair.
- More stuff but I want responses to above stuff first.

Edit - Wrong button. Still typing lol.

-Fair meteor causes crouching characters to flinch and you can grab while said character is flinching. I can't cc options out of UpB at the edge at 0 because fair breaks my cc and I get punished for reading that he is going to go high and fair.
-You can't crouch SideB that is a fact. It drags you along with him no matter what unless you absurdly SDI up, behind him, or just into the ground to tech. If he jump cancels into grab unless you completely escaped SideB you will get thrown into the grab.
-Up air is still a viable KO option that can combo into itself. You can sdi the first hit like you would for Fox, but the hitboxes are bigger and it isn't nearly as strong. Sonic can upthrow into uair at %s where it will KO.
-Dair still falls faster than his fastfall speed and can cut through the startup of moves or the end of them. Your opponent has to wait for Sonic to either choose to dair or not dair and he is in control in that scenario.
-Most of my complaints were not towards DownB I never talked about it directly, but I can if you want. It's silly that it will combo into KO moves at absurd %s like 200, when other characters lose those conversions. DownB does have more commitment and you can't air dodge out of it, but being able to bait something like a dtilt when approaching then jumping over it and dairing is pretty good.
-Not sure if Game and Watch qualifies as a slow AF character, but I cannot punish DownB in any way shape or form unless the Sonic makes blatantly poor choices. I can't punish dair on shield because it's -6 and none of my oos aerials will hit that and all I have is UpB, which only hits the poorly spaced aerials mind you because it isn't disjointed. As Zelda with near frame perfect bair oos I can kick the slower speeds of DownB through shield, and dash attack, but that is his most unsafe move on block or near it.

 

[EmptySky00]

So, when is Ash going to evolve Pikachu? I mean, seriously, this is failure to adapt to a changing meta. I, for one, don't approve.

 

[Rizner]

So I played against good Ness players in friendlies and in money matches at shuffle.

I think I was mistaken. Ness has potential. Probably not bottom tier.
My b.

 

[Vitriform]

So, when is Ash going to evolve Pikachu? I mean, seriously, this is failure to adapt to a changing meta. I, for one, don't approve.

He probably has a Light Ball. Light Ball Pikachu hits like a freaking truck. Really frail though.

 

[Player -0]

-Fair meteor causes crouching characters to flinch and you can grab while said character is flinching. I can't cc options out of UpB at the edge at 0 because fair breaks my cc and I get punished for reading that he is going to go high and fair.
-You can't crouch SideB that is a fact. It drags you along with him no matter what unless you absurdly SDI up, behind him, or just into the ground to tech. If he jump cancels into grab unless you completely escaped SideB you will get thrown into the grab.
-Up air is still a viable KO option that can combo into itself. You can sdi the first hit like you would for Fox, but the hitboxes are bigger and it isn't nearly as strong. Sonic can upthrow into uair at %s where it will KO.
-Dair still falls faster than his fastfall speed and can cut through the startup of moves or the end of them. Your opponent has to wait for Sonic to either choose to dair or not dair and he is in control in that scenario.
-Most of my complaints were not towards DownB I never talked about it directly, but I can if you want. It's silly that it will combo into KO moves at absurd %s like 200, when other characters lose those conversions. DownB does have more commitment and you can't air dodge out of it, but being able to bait something like a dtilt when approaching then jumping over it and dairing is pretty good.
-Not sure if Game and Watch qualifies as a slow AF character, but I cannot punish DownB in any way shape or form unless the Sonic makes blatantly poor choices. I can't punish dair on shield because it's -6 and none of my oos aerials will hit that and all I have is UpB, which only hits the poorly spaced aerials mind you because it isn't disjointed. As Zelda with near frame perfect bair oos I can kick the slower speeds of DownB through shield, and dash attack, but that is his most unsafe move on block or near it.

- Even if it is positive on flinch for CC (I don't think so but I'll check in a year prob.) Sonic still has to move forward and then start the grab. This gives more than enough time to stuff Sonic with a jab, aerial, spotdodge or whatever.
- The first few hits of Side B will hit you but the amount of hitstun they induce is trivial. This allows you to do your spotdodge/D-Smash if Peach or whatev. before he gets out his JC grab or WD. Teching in place lasts longer than Side B's hitboxes I'm pretty sure also, unless you mean at higher percents where you don't CC the Side B and he WD's out of it. In that case he has the advantage but that's completely normal.
- Up Air is viable on floaties ~120%. This means it should typically kill ~100% if halfway to blastzone. Chaining Up Airs to a kill doesn't work with SDI + DI. Up-Throw -> Up-Air is escapable at killing percents for floaties.
- Sonic is not in control for the juggle situation, he has an option to Up-B which can be read into Sonic being much higher above the stage than usual and dying a lot earlier. If he Up-B's safely then his options become more limited as he gets closer to the ground and eventually Dair becomes moot as an option. Either way you can punish his landings fine.
- Can prob. DI the Down-B. If not lol, how are you even living at 200%. You use aerials to stop Down-B not D-Tilt.
- Down-B is like a crossup, you can't punish it with an OoS aerial. You have to WD OoS then dash -> lol. G&W is pretty slow. You should be going for WD OoS -> Run -> D-Tilt. Either way he's forced on the defensive with (probably) less stage control.

 

[robosteven]

Sonic's fine. I think his recovery is a little silly, but other than that he's alright.

 

[Life]

@ jtm94 Has STN gotten better? He used to be one of those aggro Sonics, albeit he was pretty good at it, so unless he's changed things up since I last saw him I'm not sure whose Sonic is responsible for the non-commitment complaints 'cause that doesn't sound like him at all.

 

[jtm94]

- Even if it is positive on flinch for CC (I don't think so but I'll check in a year prob.) Sonic still has to move forward and then start the grab. This gives more than enough time to stuff Sonic with a jab, aerial, spotdodge or whatever.

-You may be correct, but the the timing may also just be very tight and I cannot get it. Most meteors flinch grounded opponent's at 0 I can do GnW's dair to grab at 0 and it works.
-I have tried to mash out dsmash while CCing as characters such as Peach, Samus, Zelda. It does not come out in time. I assure you that I will tech in place and I get pulled back into the SideB, this is a common phenomenon as every character I play as. It is possible to get the CC long enough to get shield up, but I'm not sure what allows it or when that is possible.
-Up air KOs GnW at 90% out of upthrow with DI, it may have been the stages we happen to play on, but I've been dying in this range my entire life against Sonic. Zelda escapes upthrow combos though being floaty enough.
-Sonic has tons of options to escape juggles. That is objectively fact.
-I never said I was living to 200%, just that he has conversions at these percents where a lot of characters experience the Marth % where they need a stray hit to KO.
-Aerials are not always fast enough to hit his DownB and he can react to your aerials with counter aerials. Going into the air against Sonic is a terrible idea because you've now committed to something that he can react to and punish. The best thing you can do is throw out sex kicks and hope he runs into them.
-GnW cannot punish DownB in any facet. WD oos > run > dtilt is far too slow to hit anything sonic does out of DownB. Stage control doesn't apply to Sonic because he has the ability to escape all disadvantageous positioning. You cannot corner him unless you have 3 projectiles on a small stage.

You say DownB is a crossup move. So is nair and Somersault. Just because a move can be used for a crossup doesn't mean it should be safe, you use crossups to avoid grabs and attacks from the front-facing direction typically, but that doesn't mean they need to be safe from all angles. A move should be punishable if it is expected, but the only way to punish spins is to be on top of him while initiating DownB, or throw your sex kicks at him and hope they hit.

@ Life
The problem isn't him, it's the character. He chooses to play super aggro, when Sonic can play incredibly campy/defensive and it enables extremely gross gameplay. A character like Sonic makes timeouts seem feasible.

 

[EmptySky00]

Even after all of this is said, if you people want to argue that Sonic isn't that good or that X move is fine because Y counters it, there's still a second dimension of game design that has to be considered with this character. What does this character feel like to play against?

The answer, unequivocally and without a doubt, no matter who you are and what masochistic fetishes you might have, is absolutely ****ing miserable, tedious, and boring. If you have a character that no one wants to play against ever where people would legitimately rather just stop playing than deal with another 6-7 minute game of cat and mouse, then there is a problem somewhere in design. People want to talk about things or character attributes dictating matchups, and the matchup with Sonic ALWAYS revolves around his ability to never interact with you if he doesn't want to. That's not good design. As stated by jtm, characters in the past have been nerfed on the bases of being stupid to play against. Zelda, Link, etc. Why should Sonic be any different when he clearly breaks gameplay? Characters don't always have to conform to a standard ideal of what Smash should play like; if we adhered to that philosophy then the game would become homogenous. However, if a character deviates to as insane degree as Sonic, then they should probably be looked at.

 

[Ogopogo]

ive been picking up flaco lately and hes pretty fun

i think hes the worst spacie but boy does he like brawl tech. things like dthrow techchase dacus (rip gatling) are pretty nice and rar bair and wavebounced lasers is really good. also, shine footstool is swaggy as heck but its completely unpractical cus dair does the same thing lmao

*thinks about mango playing falco and using wavebounced lasers and dacuses*

*sweats*

 

[Life]

so uh...
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edit: ack this was supposed to just point at my sig and now it doesn't work

tl;dr if someone's not complaining about the character, they're too generically designed

I haven't gotten to play against Sonic for a long time and our Sonic player is an aggro Sonic anyway, but like the only character I dislike playing against Sonic with is Squirtle and that's because I can't hit him because stubby arms.

 

[Player -0]

-You may be correct, but the the timing may also just be very tight and I cannot get it. Most meteors flinch grounded opponent's at 0 I can do GnW's dair to grab at 0 and it works.
-I have tried to mash out dsmash while CCing as characters such as Peach, Samus, Zelda. It does not come out in time. I assure you that I will tech in place and I get pulled back into the SideB, this is a common phenomenon as every character I play as. It is possible to get the CC long enough to get shield up, but I'm not sure what allows it or when that is possible.
-Up air KOs GnW at 90% out of upthrow with DI, it may have been the stages we happen to play on, but I've been dying in this range my entire life against Sonic. Zelda escapes upthrow combos though being floaty enough.
-Sonic has tons of options to escape juggles. That is objectively fact.
-I never said I was living to 200%, just that he has conversions at these percents where a lot of characters experience the Marth % where they need a stray hit to KO.
-Aerials are not always fast enough to hit his DownB and he can react to your aerials with counter aerials. Going into the air against Sonic is a terrible idea because you've now committed to something that he can react to and punish. The best thing you can do is throw out sex kicks and hope he runs into them.
-GnW cannot punish DownB in any facet. WD oos > run > dtilt is far too slow to hit anything sonic does out of DownB. Stage control doesn't apply to Sonic because he has the ability to escape all disadvantageous positioning. You cannot corner him unless you have 3 projectiles on a small stage.

You say DownB is a crossup move. So is nair and Somersault. Just because a move can be used for a crossup doesn't mean it should be safe, you use crossups to avoid grabs and attacks from the front-facing direction typically, but that doesn't mean they need to be safe from all angles. A move should be punishable if it is expected, but the only way to punish spins is to be on top of him while initiating DownB, or throw your sex kicks at him and hope they hit.

@ Life
The problem isn't him, it's the character. He chooses to play super aggro, when Sonic can play incredibly campy/defensive and it enables extremely gross gameplay. A character like Sonic makes timeouts seem feasible.

- Sonic's meteor is one of if not the weakest meteor in the game. It's also on his foot which is away from Sonic. G&W's meteor is much more powerful, below G&W (allows him to be right on top of opponent for grab), and has a landing hitbox. What other meteor is farther than the character's grab length and allows for a grab after?
- lolG&W
- I stated why Sonic isn't amazingly harder to juggle vs. other characters. You just stated he has a bunch of options to escape juggles. He has more options than a couple other characters but I could bring up characters like ZSS or Mew2. Which both have options to escape juggles too. "Tons" is a vast hyperbole.
- Many other characters have moves that outright kill at that percent instead or lead up to a kill move. Roy D-Tilt -> Bair, Mew2 D-Tilt -> Fair (teleport before if need), G&W's D-Tilt outright kills, etc.
- I feel like you're nitpicking way too much. Most (if not all) characters have a Nair or option they can pull out in 10 frames to beat out Down-B. What aerial is Sonic going to counter Ganon's SH Nair with if he's almost right on top of Ganon? Ganon's 1st hit Nair beats Sonic's everything. "You've committed to something and he can punish." He's still in Down-B, what is he going to do? He doesn't instantly WD out of it anymore, you've committed to punishing his mistake. While you're punishing he can't punish you.
- More but bed time

Edit - Actually completing thought. You're overestimating Sonic's ability to escape things and be safe. You can read him and punish him.

 

[The Puffer]

- Sonic's meteor is one of if not the weakest meteor in the game.

Wait... Sonic has a meteor?

 

[Life]

Wait... Sonic has a meteor?

Forward air.

 

[EmptySky00]

so uh...
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V

edit: ack this was supposed to include my sig and now it doesn't work

tl;dr if someone's not complaining about the character, they're too generically designed

I haven't gotten to play against Sonic for a long time and our Sonic player is an aggro Sonic anyway, but like the only character I dislike playing against Sonic with is Squirtle and that's because I can't hit him because stubby arms.

This doesn't contribute ANYTHING to the conversation. This has nothing to do with generic vs creative design. We're not complaining to just complain or because we don't feel like learning the matchup or whatever other generic non-argument you people like to throw out. We're listing legitimate aspects of Sonic as a character that lead to degenerate gameplay, and all you can say is this? Wow. Instead of trying to trivialize the entire discussion, you could try to construct an actual argument or something. Idfk.

 

[Player -0]

The beginning of his Dair is also a fairly weak spike.

Edit - Squirtle should be changed then, along with TLink. If we're talking annoying to play against can we add Luigi, Yoshi, IC's, and others to the list?

 

[jtm94]

- Sonic's meteor is one of if not the weakest meteor in the game. It's also on his foot which is away from Sonic. G&W's meteor is much more powerful, below G&W (allows him to be right on top of opponent for grab), and has a landing hitbox. What other meteor is farther than the character's grab length and allows for a grab after?

-Meteors all break crouch the same.
-I've never had a ZSS or Mewtwo escape juggles like Sonic does. The only character I can compare it to is ROB. You are vastly underrating his movement options in the air and his rite of postponement.
-Yes but they also aren't movement options that are safe on shield and can be jumped out of.
-Or you can just react. You're merely stating counterplay, but in these scenarios sonic can just avoid them if they go airborne all together. As a player you know how fast their options are, you can tell if Ganon is going to hit you with the move or isn't and you can jump over it, cancel it(yes I know this takes time, but so will the aerial they are using), or go into them because you know it won't come out in time.

Say we take Sonic approaching with DownB, the other character empty hops in anticipation. Sonic can choose to halt DownB, jump, or keep spinning. If the other character has a fast aerial such as Fox nair then avoiding the interaction may be the best bet. Sonic can jump, the other player can feel like they won baiting the jump where they now begin to uair, and Sonic can choose to dair them out of it. The character facing Sonic has less defensive options against Sonic's spins than he has options around any and all counter play.

Note this is only speaking of DownB, the problem isn't DownB it is his more "balanced" spin move. The problem is that he already has safe approaches and can play the waiting game better than anyone else while still gaining these additional attributes from his spins that aren't even needed to compliment his moveset. It isn't as if his movement is bad and he needs to rely on spins, it's just crazy that his dash dance is so godly that it somehow outclasses his spins outright because defense is the best offense. Blindly spinning at your opponent is never the best option, but if you so choose to via SideB at a close distance there is no counterplay even if you expect it.

I guess my opinion is just unpopular because I'm not talking about Fox or memeing and just want to discuss how Sonic can invalidate smash.

 

[EmptySky00]

- I feel like you're nitpicking way too much. Most (if not all) characters have a Nair or option they can pull out in 10 frames to beat out Down-B. What aerial is Sonic going to counter Ganon's SH Nair with if he's almost right on top of Ganon? Ganon's 1st hit Nair beats Sonic's everything. "You've committed to something and he can punish." He's still in Down-B, what is he going to do? He doesn't instantly WD out of it anymore, you've committed to punishing his mistake. While you're punishing he can't punish you.
- More but bed time

Edit - Actually completing thought. You're overestimating Sonic's ability to escape things and be safe. You can read him and punish him.

This isn't a game of rock-paper-scissors where you both blind pick and prediction is key, Sonic can literally just sit back and wait to see if you pick scissors then choose rock in response. If he's running into your sex kick nair with spins, he's being impatient and running into ****. This isn't a character flaw so much as it is poor play.

Any why the hell are you citing Ganon? Why is Sonic running into Ganon's Nair? Why isn't he just doing observe --> Grab like he should? You can't cite the Sonic player smashing their heads into hitboxes as a reason why Sonic is balanced. You know how people refer to moves or characters having general low priority, right? This mostly becomes relevant when said character is put into a position where they have to contest other moves. Hey, guess what Sonic never has to do because he can ignore positioning and escape always?

We have a winner.

 

[PlateProp]

The beginning of his Dair is also a fairly weak spike.

Edit - Squirtle should be changed then, along with TLink. If we're talking annoying to play against can we add Luigi, Yoshi, IC's, and others to the list?

No, everyone else should be changed because it annoys me to play against them

 

[Player -0]

-Meteors all break crouch the same.
-I've never had a ZSS or Mewtwo escape juggles like Sonic does. The only character I can compare it to is ROB. You are vastly underrating his movement options in the air and his rite of postponement.
-Yes but they also aren't movement options that are safe on shield and can be jumped out of.
-Or you can just react. You're merely stating counterplay, but in these scenarios sonic can just avoid them if they go airborne all together. As a player you know how fast their options are, you can tell if Ganon is going to hit you with the move or isn't and you can jump over it, cancel it(yes I know this takes time, but so will the aerial they are using), or go into them because you know it won't come out in time.

Say we take Sonic approaching with DownB, the other character empty hops in anticipation. Sonic can choose to halt DownB, jump, or keep spinning. If the other character has a fast aerial such as Fox nair then avoiding the interaction may be the best bet. Sonic can jump, the other player can feel like they won baiting the jump where they now begin to uair, and Sonic can choose to dair them out of it. The character facing Sonic has less defensive options against Sonic's spins than he has options around any and all counter play.

Note this is only speaking of DownB, the problem isn't DownB it is his more "balanced" spin move. The problem is that he already has safe approaches and can play the waiting game better than anyone else while still gaining these additional attributes from his spins that aren't even needed to compliment his moveset. It isn't as if his movement is bad and he needs to rely on spins, it's just crazy that his dash dance is so godly that it somehow outclasses his spins outright because defense is the best offense. Blindly spinning at your opponent is never the best option, but if you so choose to via SideB at a close distance there is no counterplay even if you expect it.

I guess my opinion is just unpopular because I'm not talking about Fox or memeing and just want to discuss how Sonic can invalidate smash.

- Even if Fair breaks CC the position Sonic has to be in doesn't allow for a grab followup. Can you answer my question from before?
- ZSS I would argue can escape juggles much more easily than Sonic. Can you give a specific example in which Sonic's juggle escaping prowess is better than ever one else's? You're just saying "trust me, it's broken."
- What are you referring to?
- The defender wouldn't jump prematurely, only jump Nair when Sonic has gone through his startlag for Down-B and is rolling. If Sonic cancels before he's in Nair range then Ganon has less end lag.
- If Sonic jumps then you can WL back or FF Shield. I don't see how Sonic wins every trade in this sequence of events. We're both listing how each option doesn't beat the other.
- Side B isn't wicked quick or goes super far. The start/travel time is completely reactable.
- Last statement is lulzy

This isn't a game of rock-paper-scissors where you both blind pick and prediction is key, Sonic can literally just sit back and wait to see if you pick scissors then choose rock in response. If he's running into your sex kick nair with spins, he's being impatient and running into ****. This isn't a character flaw so much as it is poor play.

Any why the hell are you citing Ganon? Why is Sonic running into Ganon's Nair? Why isn't he just doing observe --> Grab like he should? You can't cite the Sonic player smashing their heads into hitboxes as a reason why Sonic is balanced. You know how people refer to moves or characters having general low priority, right? This mostly becomes relevant when said character is put into a position where they have to contest other moves. Hey, guess what Sonic never has to do because he can ignore positioning and escape always?

We have a winner.

Are you going to start flaming and demeaning a person like you typically do? I picked Ganon as an arbitrary character to show how Down-B isn't a valid approach and its mixups are negligible. One of his points is that spins are crazy goodgood. I'm saying their not.

_________________
so prob. missed 100 things

 

[Foo]

tl;dr if someone's not complaining about the character, they're too generically designed

If someone isn't complaining about a character, that character doesn't exist*

Anyway, on the topic of sonic, all I can say is that, in 3.02 I ABSOLUTELY ****ING HATED THAT FURRY PIECE OF **** SO BADLY I WANTED TO DRESS PEOPLE UP LIKE HIM AND BURN THEM ALIVE AND THEN... anyway, I haven't had much problem with him in 3.02. It's possible the few sets I've played against my local (competent) sonic players weren't representative of the lamest (and most effective) way to play sonic, or maybe zss blaster just circumvents it. Playing sonic in 3.02 made me want to rage quit the game, but playing the same sonic players in 3.5 feels pretty normal.

Only thing I can see is that divekick seems a bit suspect, but reasonable. It's negatively disjointed after the first few frames and it adds a lot of interesting dynamic to the character. Being a 36 frame animation with negative disjoint and 14 frames of landing lag while only going fowards, it seems pretty reasonable. It's really strong and helps him get out of juggles, sure, but that's what it's purpose is. Sonic is supposed to be an extremely mobile character, and having him just be mobile on the ground is a pretty ****ing silly and overnormalizing.

However, I do feel sonic is REALLY underrated right now. It baffles me that everyone is putting him in lower mid. He is INSANELY mobile in every way, his recovery is great, his upthrow is nearly as potent as falcon, he has an absurd DD game, his fair, and he even has decent spacy matchups. Not sure how you a character like that could ever be considered sub-par. For once, I don't really have any ideas on how I would change sonic though, since I haven't play against him enough, but maybe he could be defocused on his dash dance by making his dash length short and giving him stuff to compensate.

- ZSS I would argue can escape juggles much more easily than Sonic. Can you give a specific example in which Sonic's juggle escaping prowess is better than ever one else's? You're just saying "trust me, it's broken."

I would disagree with this. ZSS down-b doesn't go up super high and you pretty much have to edgecancel divekick to avoid punishes (31 frames of lag, compared to soni'c 14), making it pretty obvious where you are gonna go. You also can only divekick during down-b and have to jump cancel it etc. etc. Not saying she's bad at getting down or anything, but I think sonic is better at it. Especially since he has a lot of aerial horizontal movement options as well.

Not sure about mewtwo, though, Teleport is pretty friggin good.

 

[Foo]

(Oh god double post I'm so sorry I ****ed up I ****ed up please don't hurt me I'll hit edit next time forgive me I'll make a silly post next I promise maybe I'll post a fox head again and get 30 ****ing upvotes again or something idk just don't kill me and I'll do something funny I swear.)

 

[jtm94]

What question are you referring to?
-No I'm stating he has movement options in the air which he does. This is coupled with other things like spinshot and UpB which drops a spring on anyone directly below him.
-At that point then it just regresses back to facing Sonic in neutral which is the infuriating part. The counterplay to his spins leads nowhere because of his superior movement out of them.
-Sonic is the one initiating the interaction and the one that has the last chance to react to what is happening. The fact that he can force the interaction at all is good because very few characters can dash back away from spins, they are forced into shield instead.
-Sonic can dash dance just outside of range and then punish anything with a SideB. He can follow up crossup SideB with another SideB into another SideB into another SideB and repeatedly phase through your shield.
-You're situation has you initiating DownB directly in front of the other player and that's not when it's potent. Spindash is only potent once he's reached max speed because he can jump out of the way, dair, or keep on trucking fast enough to avoid the Ganon nair in question.
-This whole thing has gone too far off track. The main point of the spins isn't that they are a broken approach tool. The only dumb one is SideB because you can do EVERYTHING out of it and every other movement option like that was normalized. It is safe on shield and leads into grabs at any point once it hits. The counter play for the move is frustrating mostly because the move is so easy to put out and you are repeatedly put into situations where you must avoid it/deal with it.

My biggest point is that you can't punish Sonic for flaunting random spins across your shield and he can just run circles around you because his spins have negligible lag. Also thank you Foo, ZSS divekick has a reasonable amount of lag that can be punished if used sloppily as an escape tool, almost 3x as much as Sonic's. This isn't an apples to apples thing though, different characters are different obviously.

I agree with @ Foo 's stance that a character with mobility such as this and potentially devastating MUs on relevant characters put him in a very good light at the moment. He has the ability to out-neutral Fox.

 

[Foo]

Also thank you Foo, ZSS divekick has a reasonable amount of lag that can be punished if used sloppily as an escape tool, almost 3x as much as Sonic's. This isn't an apples to apples thing though, different characters are different obviously.

Um.... if by 3x you mean a single frame more than 2x (sonic at 14, zss at 29 with 14x2=28), then... sure? Not sure you can round up from .07, though....

I agree with @ Foo 's stance that a character with mobility such as this and potentially devastating MUs on relevant characters put him in a very good light at the moment. He has the ability to out-neutral Fox.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember saying anything about Sonic having "potentially devastating MUs against relevant characters" nor an ability to "out-neutral fox."

Not sure how I feel about someone "agreeing" with me on things I never said... lol

EDIT: anyway, from reading some of your points, it seems you aren't playing against sonic correctly. You don't punish by blocking and countering his spin moves, you counter by out prioritizing them.

 

[jtm94]

Ahh it's late, I thought you said like 39 frames or something. My B.

Also I didn't mean to make the devastating MU statement. I just meant to say he can do devastating things to fast fallers which make up some fairly relevant characters. I took that a bit far.

For future reference I play against Sonic every single day and have been for over a year, please do not EVER tell me I am playing against Sonic incorrectly in any facet. That is where all of this is coming from, I've been facing the character through thick and thin and have still yet to find a way to enjoy playing against him. I think about and theory craft over this character for hours, and there is nothing I can do against him because even low commitment options on my end still get punished. I can't out wait him because he can force and bait my options with far more ease than I can to him. This isn't me being outplayed either because that's the next buzzword to be thrown at me, I typically go even or do a little better than him in our conventional MUs, but it's the type of thing where I feel like I'm losing when I'm winning. You can only interact with the character when he makes a mistake. Also inb4 someone says they beat all the scrub local Sonic players so he's not that good.

Yes you can out prioritize his moves if he comes head on in a predictable fashion. Having priority over him really means very little because he can avoid any and all hitboxes unless they are fast enough to catch him slipping. It's a game of throwing hitboxes at him until he runs into them, but if he doesn't play aggro you slowly lose. His moves also have a fair amount of priority, I think what you means was disjoint. If he approaches with shffl nairs then he will trade with pretty much every sex kick, only the spins lose to things like that, but even if he is moving fast enough he can still force trades and then it's just a reset to neutral. I have a hard time cornering him with any character except for MK because nair actually decides the MU, and Fox because his movement actually allows him to punish/chase Sonic.

We can TL:DR this whole thing up as Sonic dictates the MU against every character slower than him because his speed is the lamest biggest threat. Sonic is always the cat and his opponent the mouse.

What do I know. Everyone will just dismiss this all anyways and DMG will continue to refer to me as the guy that's salty about Sonic. Ohwell, time to sleep and realize this was all a dream. Continue talking about Fox and waiting for 3.6.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Ahh it's late, I thought you said like 39 frames or something. My B.

Also I didn't mean to make the devastating MU statement. I just meant to say he can do devastating things to fast fallers which make up some fairly relevant characters. I took that a bit far.

For future reference I play against Sonic every single day and have been for over a year, please do not EVER tell me I am playing against Sonic incorrectly in any facet. That is where all of this is coming from, I've been facing the character through thick and thin and have still yet to find a way to enjoy playing against him. I think about and theory craft over this character for hours, and there is nothing I can do against him because even low commitment options on my end still get punished. I can't out wait him because he can force and bait my options with far more ease than I can to him. This isn't me being outplayed either because that's the next buzzword to be thrown at me, I typically go even or do a little better than him in our conventional MUs, but it's the type of thing where I feel like I'm losing when I'm winning. You can only interact with the character when he makes a mistake. Also inb4 someone says they beat all the scrub local Sonic players so he's not that good.

Yes you can out prioritize his moves if he comes head on in a predictable fashion. Having priority over him really means very little because he can avoid any and all hitboxes unless they are fast enough to catch him slipping. It's a game of throwing hitboxes at him until he runs into them, but if he doesn't play aggro you slowly lose. His moves also have a fair amount of priority, I think what you means was disjoint. If he approaches with shffl nairs then he will trade with pretty much every sex kick, only the spins lose to things like that, but even if he is moving fast enough he can still force trades and then it's just a reset to neutral. I have a hard time cornering him with any character except for MK because nair actually decides the MU, and Fox because his movement actually allows him to punish/chase Sonic.

We can TL:DR this whole thing up as Sonic dictates the MU against every character slower than him because his speed is the lamest biggest threat. Sonic is always the cat and his opponent the mouse.

What do I know. Everyone will just dismiss this all anyways and DMG will continue to refer to me as the guy that's salty about Sonic. Ohwell, time to sleep and realize this was all a dream. Continue talking about Fox and waiting for 3.6.

I neither agree nor disagree with the statements you made on sonic. I will suggest to try the crazy idea of posting visual proof of the absurdity of sonic's approach/baiting options. For the majority of us, Wizzrobe is not a next door neighbor and representation of the character is rather low in quantity and/or lacking in the skill department atm.

If you make a post stating a mid tier (general concensus) character is o.p without video to back up said claim, you will either get comments from people assuming that they know your an unskilled player from a couple of post on smashboards, or worse a lousy irrelevant DMG 1 liner that has no value or depth, and pertains to no topic discussed upon in the thread. (Jk but seriously the 1 liner will still get 30 likes for who knows why lol)

 

[TreK]

Speaking of Sonic
I don't trust his word all that much, but my boy Satanpuuuu said the Sonic mains on the Skype chat didn't know about the combos he was using last week in those VODs : 1 2 3

Specifically I think he was talking mostly about B-reverse aerial down B into dair spike. Not too sure, Sonic is weird. But from what I can tell, no amount of DI was enough for me to gtfo. If what he says is true and better Sonics start using those combos, I can see Sonic rising a few spots in a couple months.

But like... does anybody even have an idea of what the 3.5 Sonic meta looks like ? There are only two Sonic videos in KayB's thread.