Tier List Speculation

[NyTR0]

This is exactly why Sonic always ends up getting unnecessary nerfs.. The whole "he doesn't need to commit to win" crap is what always fires me up. He has such low priority on his down and side b that he can basically be grabbed out of them. Sonic isn't safe at all! Almost any hit box in the game stops him and its dumb. He gets GameStop trades in the air cause everything beats out his aerials. Seriously, it feels like I give my PS4 along with 30 games just to get $5 dollars back. That's how bad Sonic is at trading. Marth, Wario, G&W and Luigi are like the biggest things that make playing Sonic frustrating. Don't even get me started on his recovery! "Its too good wah wah!" No! It's actually horrible cause you have to commit to going super low to grab ledge safely since it doesn't sweetspot. You think Sonic takes no commitment? Play Marth. Stupid range, stupid hit boxes and a super easy and cheese spike. Forward smash sonic every time he misses his sweet spot. Although I think Sonic is a good character he lacks a lot and always has since PM demo. All PMDT is doing is making people have to relearn an average character with every patch.

 

[Player -0]

On phone so not replying to stuff besides ZSS. For the ZSS escaping juggle the Down B goes up a decent amount in any of 3 directions, divekicks in either direction, JC it very early, refreshes on hit, edge cancellable, etc. What hurts it is that it rises relatively slowly.

Lolmobile

 

[Foo]

I'm sure many of you have wondered "Foo, you seem to have such an opinion on just about everything, why haven't you made a tier list yet! Well, I wasn't content on just rushing one out, so I spent countless hours thinking and thinking and theorizing and polling the entire internet (I will even cite my sources)! So now, I present, the new definitive 3.5 tier list:

(Characters are ordered within tiers, tiers represent an entirely arbitrary Separation.)

Top Tier:


High Tier:


Upper Mid Tier:


Lower Mid Tier:


Low Tier:


Fox Tier:



Below are explanations for every character and citations. Before you make an angry reply just because this tier list isn't the "LOL I'M LUNCHABLES I MADE A TIER LIST" list, please open the spoiler and do some reading. I assure you there is a very good reason for each and every placement. Don't be so quick to lash out because someone challenged your precious "metagame."

Spoiler

All of these tiers are mostly based off of my extensive poll of the entire internet, compiled here. http://www.whatdoestheinternetthink.net/

(The other source is my keyboard.)

Score is made by subtracting the negative percentage from the positive percentage.

There is a positive, negative, and indifferent response. I didn't feel like recording the "indifferent" amount, so if the positive and negative don't add up, you can figure it out if you really care that much.


Positive: 99.5%
Negative: 0.5%
Score: 99

Positive: 97.7%
Negative: 2.3%
Score: 95.4

Positive: 96.7%
Negative: 1.7%
Score: 95

Positive: 91.2%
Negative: 2.6%
Score: 88.6

Positive: 87.5%
Negative: 2.1%
Score: 85.4

Positive: 81%
Negative: 1%
Score: 80

Positive: 79.6%
Negative: .1%
Score: 79.5

Positive: 82.7%
Negative: 4.8%
Score: 77.9

Positive: 85.8%
Negative: 8.3%
Score: 77.5

Positive: 79.7%
Negative: 7.3%
Score: 72.4

Positive: 82.6%
Negative: 14.7%
Score: 67.9

Positive: 80.9%
Negative: 14.2%
Score: 66.7

Positive: 80.7%
Negative: 14.4%
Score: 66.3

Positive: 77.3%
Negative: 16.5%
Score: 60.8

Positive: 72.2%
Negative: 13.6%
Score: 58.6

Positive: 75.2%
Negative: 17.1%
Score: 58.1

Positive: 47.9%
Negative: 3.9%
Score: 44

Positive: 55.5%
Negative: 11.8%
Score: 43.7

Positive: 67.8%
Negative: 24.4%
Score: 43.4

Positive: 70.6%
Negative: 28.1%
Score: 42.5

Positive: 70.9%
Negative: 29.1%
Score: 41.8

Positive: 67.6%
Negative: 32.4%
Score: 35.2

Positive: 66.9%
Negative: 31.7%
Score: 35.2

Positive: 66.1%
Negative: 31.2%
Score: 34.9

Positive: 63.1%
Negative: 31.2%
Score: 31.9

Positive: 64.9%
Negative: 35.1%
Score: 29.8

Positive: 63.2%
Negative: 35.8%
Score: 27.4

Positive: 55.3%
Negative: 30.8%
Score: 24.5

Positive: 60.4%
Negative: 38.9%
Score: 21.5

Positive: 14.4%
Negative: 2.7%
Score: 11.7

Positive: 54.1%
Negative: 45.4%
Score: 8.7

Positive: 50.9%
Negative: 47.7%
Score: 3.2

Positive: 48.7%
Negative: 46.5%
Score: 2.2

Positive: 47.3%
Negative: 52.7%
Score: -5.4

Positive: 43.3%
Negative: 55%
Score: -11.7

Positive: 42.7%
Negative: 56.7%
Score: -14

Positive: 41.1%
Negative: 58.9%
Score: -17.8

Positive: 37.2%
Negative: 59.8%
Score: -22.6

Positive: 31.4%
Negative: 68.6%
Score: -37.2

Positive: 27.6%
Negative: 72.4%
Score: -44.8

Positive: 7.8%
Negative: 92%
Score: -84.2

If any of you doubt the validity of this source: http://www.whatdoestheinternetthink.net/foo

So yeah, apparently fox is by and far the worst. Guess everyone needs to git gud, ipunchkidz was right.

Step up your game, **** posters. You are getting out-**** posted by me of all people.

EDIT: Fixed bug where olimar wasn't low tier.

 

[RegalSwan]

Low Tier:

Fox Tier:

Roy is better than Fox, this is the life.

 

[MLGF]

So many m2k **** riders...

 

[Binary Clone]

Is this the Tier List ****posting thread again now?

Otherwise, what do you guys think about Wario's dair? I think the general behavior of it is just a little bit odd.

PMDT seems to generally have a policy of making descending moves not have a hitbox that goes ahead of the hurtbox (see Ganon/Falcon downB, and against good descent/anti-juggle options in general (MK's dair changes, etc). But Wario's dair is quick, safe on shield against most characters if you maneuver properly (I believe), combos well, and is significantly disjointed below him.

For the most part I think it's fine, but there's a few weird instances where it's behavior seems wrong. A lot of recoveries can just be destroyed with it very safely as long as you can hit. Anything with significant startup or mostly horizontal recovery just gets bodied by it, like Bowser's upB, which is very easy to just dair and Bowser is instantly dead.

I think it mostly fits into his kit well, but bits of it just seem contrary to the general design of the game.

 

[Vashimus]

Top Tier:

You just gave Plate an aneurysm.

 

[PlateProp]

You just gave Plate an aneurysm.

Nah, he's just joined the ****posting

 

[jtm94]

People complaining is what got Zelda changed, Sonic was actually ridiculous. Just learn the MU, learn the MU, throw out random nairs against sonic beating him is ez. No it doesn't work that way and GnW doesn't feel like he wins in any meaningful way. Against GnW it's extremely easy to bait and punish him, that's how i play it as Sheik and as Sonic it is even easier, you just poke him into a corner until he feels forced to UpB then chase him with aerials.(inb4 but dair is sooo disjointed and safe) Characters like Kirby and Mario with good fast lasting bairs feel much more potent, especially at the ledge because Sonic's UpB has no hitbox.

I would hope that any hitbox would stop Sonic's spins. Breathing on him should stop them, it is a movement option, are it's other properties not good enough?

Luigi vs Sonic is just dbz and our Luigi just throws out stored misfires hoping they run into Sonic because he cannot use any other approach safely. He wins with that strategy it's hilarious, that MU seems potentially difficult for Sonic especially because Luigi always recovers.

@ Binary Clone
That's just Bowser's recovery though. He loses to most Meteor's. If Sonic didn't have fair I would almost say Bowser beat him. It was weird that Wario's dair beats things like Zelda fsmash, but that move isn't the epitome of disjoint either. While I won't agree that it stands out in a way you stated, I have extreme difficulty punishing the move on shield personally, Strong Bad reassured me in saying it was unsafe though.

 

[PlateProp]

Can we talk about how Jiggs could totally be made to not have sing and the rest of her moves be crap other than bair if rest was nerfed to not be so ****ing dumb

 

[EmptySky00]

This is exactly why Sonic always ends up getting unnecessary nerfs.. The whole "he doesn't need to commit to win" crap is what always fires me up. He has such low priority on his down and side b that he can basically be grabbed out of them. Sonic isn't safe at all! Almost any hit box in the game stops him and its dumb. He gets GameStop trades in the air cause everything beats out his aerials. Seriously, it feels like I give my PS4 along with 30 games just to get $5 dollars back. That's how bad Sonic is at trading. Marth, Wario, G&W and Luigi are like the biggest things that make playing Sonic frustrating. Don't even get me started on his recovery! "Its too good wah wah!" No! It's actually horrible cause you have to commit to going super low to grab ledge safely since it doesn't sweetspot. You think Sonic takes no commitment? Play Marth. Stupid range, stupid hit boxes and a super easy and cheese spike. Forward smash sonic every time he misses his sweet spot. Although I think Sonic is a good character he lacks a lot and always has since PM demo. All PMDT is doing is making people have to relearn an average character with every patch.

You are clearly very ignorant about your own character. This is why versions and versions go by and Sonic is still a poorly designed PoS because bad players who don't understand how to abuse him cry when he's rightfully changed. You think he's been average since demo 1? Have you even been following this game? Lol. You clearly understand nothing and you're just throwing out blind claims in a desperate attempt to nullify statements against Sonic's blatantly poor design. Why don't you go into the lab, get better and learn your own damn character, then come and try to argue in his favor. You'll be all the better for it. We've addressed the trading thing already, at least I did. But no one knows how to ****ing read so I guess this whole conversation that was originally brought up with good intention has just gone to hell. Rotting from the inside out with the termites known as bad players.

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Binary Clone
That's just Bowser's recovery though. He loses to most Meteor's. If Sonic didn't have fair I would almost say Bowser beat him. It was weird that Wario's dair beats things like Zelda fsmash, but that move isn't the epitome of disjoint either. While I won't agree that it stands out in a way you stated, I have extreme difficulty punishing the move on shield personally, Strong Bad reassured me in saying it was unsafe though.

I was more directing that about the nature of Wario's particular meteor, though. The disjoint allows him to essentially ignore Bowser's hitboxes which typically can make it harder to meteor him, and the bounce makes it entirely safe to do, while his air control makes it easy to hit. It isn't a big disjoint, but it's still a disjoint, and having a descending disjoint at all seems odd given the previous decisions on the properties of similar descending attacks.

But yes, I think it's technically unsafe on shield. Punishing it depends on your aerial options and how fast you can get out a hitbox depending on where Wario drifts. I think it can be pretty challenging to punish regardless of your options, though, unless you're a swordie.

Can we talk about how Jiggs could totally be made to not have sing and the rest of her moves be crap other than bair if rest was nerfed to not be so ****ing dumb

I really want this to happen. Jigglypuff is an incredibly boring character to play against and to watch (and to play, I'd argue), with the exception of two seconds per match when Jiggly sometimes gets a rest kill. She has one next-to-useless special in Sing, and another extremely situational special in Rollout. Her aerials are all at least decent, but she's so centralized around them that her normals all seem very neglected, and there rarely seems any reason to use aerials other than bair and fair.

 

[Boiko]

So I played against good Ness players in friendlies and in money matches at shuffle.

I think I was mistaken. Ness has potential. Probably not bottom tier.
My b.

Who?

 

[Magus420]

Wario d-air bounce is -13 on block and he can drift so far during it that not even Marth can reach with f-air OoS.

 

[Rizner]

Who?

Uhhh, I played 3 total. Tetra was one... The others were.... Ummmm....

Also worth noting: I still don't see near the top, but better than half seems pretty reasonable to me at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

Below are explanations for every character and citations. Before you make an angry reply just because this tier list isn't the "LOL I'M LUNCHABLES I MADE A TIER LIST" list, please open the spoiler and do some reading

best tier list

1.
2.
3.

I can't find any problems with my tier list.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I'm sure many of you have wondered "Foo, you seem to have such an opinion on just about everything, why haven't you made a tier list yet! Well, I wasn't content on just rushing one out, so I spent countless hours thinking and thinking and theorizing and polling the entire internet (I will even cite my sources)! So now, I present, the new definitive 3.5 tier list:

(Characters are ordered within tiers, tiers represent an entirely arbitrary Separation.)

Top Tier:


High Tier:


Upper Mid Tier:


Lower Mid Tier:


Low Tier:


Fox Tier:



Below are explanations for every character and citations. Before you make an angry reply just because this tier list isn't the "LOL I'M LUNCHABLES I MADE A TIER LIST" list, please open the spoiler and do some reading. I assure you there is a very good reason for each and every placement. Don't be so quick to lash out because someone challenged your precious "metagame."

Spoiler

All of these tiers are mostly based off of my extensive poll of the entire internet, compiled here. http://www.whatdoestheinternetthink.net/

(The other source is my keyboard.)

Score is made by subtracting the negative percentage from the positive percentage.

There is a positive, negative, and indifferent response. I didn't feel like recording the "indifferent" amount, so if the positive and negative don't add up, you can figure it out if you really care that much.


Positive: 99.5%
Negative: 0.5%
Score: 99

Positive: 97.7%
Negative: 2.3%
Score: 95.4

Positive: 96.7%
Negative: 1.7%
Score: 95

Positive: 91.2%
Negative: 2.6%
Score: 88.6

Positive: 87.5%
Negative: 2.1%
Score: 85.4

Positive: 81%
Negative: 1%
Score: 80

Positive: 79.6%
Negative: .1%
Score: 79.5

Positive: 82.7%
Negative: 4.8%
Score: 77.9

Positive: 85.8%
Negative: 8.3%
Score: 77.5

Positive: 79.7%
Negative: 7.3%
Score: 72.4

Positive: 82.6%
Negative: 14.7%
Score: 67.9

Positive: 80.9%
Negative: 14.2%
Score: 66.7

Positive: 80.7%
Negative: 14.4%
Score: 66.3

Positive: 77.3%
Negative: 16.5%
Score: 60.8

Positive: 72.2%
Negative: 13.6%
Score: 58.6

Positive: 75.2%
Negative: 17.1%
Score: 58.1

Positive: 47.9%
Negative: 3.9%
Score: 44

Positive: 55.5%
Negative: 11.8%
Score: 43.7

Positive: 67.8%
Negative: 24.4%
Score: 43.4

Positive: 70.6%
Negative: 28.1%
Score: 42.5

Positive: 70.9%
Negative: 29.1%
Score: 41.8

Positive: 67.6%
Negative: 32.4%
Score: 35.2

Positive: 66.9%
Negative: 31.7%
Score: 35.2

Positive: 66.1%
Negative: 31.2%
Score: 34.9

Positive: 63.1%
Negative: 31.2%
Score: 31.9

Positive: 64.9%
Negative: 35.1%
Score: 29.8

Positive: 63.2%
Negative: 35.8%
Score: 27.4

Positive: 55.3%
Negative: 30.8%
Score: 24.5

Positive: 60.4%
Negative: 38.9%
Score: 21.5

Positive: 41.1%
Negative: 58.9%
Score: 17.8

Positive: 14.4%
Negative: 2.7%
Score: 11.7

Positive: 54.1%
Negative: 45.4%
Score: 8.7

Positive: 50.9%
Negative: 47.7%
Score: 3.2

Positive: 48.7%
Negative: 46.5%
Score: 2.2

Positive: 47.3%
Negative: 52.7%
Score: -5.4

Positive: 43.3%
Negative: 55%
Score: -11.7

Positive: 42.7%
Negative: 56.7%
Score: -14

Positive: 37.2%
Negative: 59.8%
Score: -22.6

Positive: 31.4%
Negative: 68.6%
Score: -37.2

Positive: 27.6%
Negative: 72.4%
Score: -44.8

Positive: 7.8%
Negative: 92%
Score: -84.2

If any of you doubt the validity of this source: http://www.whatdoestheinternetthink.net/foo

So yeah, apparently fox is by and far the worst. Guess everyone needs to git gud, ipunchkidz was right.

Step up your game, **** posters. You are getting out-**** posted by me of all people.

Olimar in the wrong spot.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I can't find any problems with my tier list.

The only problem I find with your tier list is that it hasn't been generally accepted as a dogma yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Negative: 55%

i spend way too much time online.

 

[FreeGamer]

zelda high tier

nope.jpg

 

[DMG]

You might be able to shield DI/angle your shield against Wario Dair to make it easier to punish.

 

[PlateProp]

You might be able to shield DI/angle your shield against Wario Dair to make it easier to punish.

Git gud and dodge so wario just kills himself or somethin

 

[RelaxAlax]

Why can't they changes Jiggs?

Who's gonna be upset, Hbox? He plays Mario in this game anyways.

I propose Sing should be made into the base of Jiggs moveset because, well, that's pretty much Jigglypuffs icon trait in Pokemon. Make it a close range paralyzer? Or hell, a shine that puts people to sleep.

But what of rest? I feel it shouldn't be the crutch of the character anymore. It should still be her go to kill option, just maybe act as Wolfs side b - a finisher. This beside Sing may be a bit op sounding, but hey, Snake makes it work, no? But this whole topic falls into the folder everyone leaves in the back of the filing cabinet - "muh melay"

 

[Ripple]

I have come to the conclusion that bowser should do chip damage

 

[DrinkingFood]

I have come to the conclusion that bowser should do chip damage

How about chip knockback instead

 

[NyTR0]

You are clearly very ignorant about your own character. This is why versions and versions go by and Sonic is still a poorly designed PoS because bad players who don't understand how to abuse him cry when he's rightfully changed. You think he's been average since demo 1? Have you even been following this game? Lol. You clearly understand nothing and you're just throwing out blind claims in a desperate attempt to nullify statements against Sonic's blatantly poor design. Why don't you go into the lab, get better and learn your own damn character, then come and try to argue in his favor. You'll be all the better for it. We've addressed the trading thing already, at least I did. But no one knows how to ****ing read so I guess this whole conversation that was originally brought up with good intention has just gone to hell. Rotting from the inside out with the termites known as bad players.

See, I know my character. I've studied him and have re learned him with no problem cause even outside of PM sonic is my favorite video game character. I need to get good? You should really consider looking at yourself cause you're like the kind of people that get characters nerf because they have something that's good. Yes, I'll admit sonic did have some crazy stuff back then but so did half the cast I'm simply saying that there are things that were just pointless to nerf. The biggest one to me being the special fall on homing attack when they could've done so much more to that move to make it less safe. Stop making assumptions about someone being bad cause for all we know I could run laps around you in PM and give you another reason to b***h about how Sonic is "OP." Get out of my face.

 

[.alizarin]

See, I know my character. I've studied him and have re learned him with no problem cause even outside of PM sonic is my favorite video game character. I need to get good? You should really consider looking at yourself cause you're like the kind of people that get characters nerf because they have something that's good. Yes, I'll admit sonic did have some crazy stuff back then but so did half the cast I'm simply saying that there are things that were just pointless to nerf. The biggest one to me being the special fall on homing attack when they could've done so much more to that move to make it less safe. Stop making assumptions about someone being bad cause for all we know I could run laps around you in PM and give you another reason to b***h about how Sonic is "OP." Get out of my face.

you made arguments that were addressed several times before you even posted. the points you made expressing sonic's weaknesses can all be avoided by reacting to what they do instead of rando-spinning into people. the fact that you even mention them as weaknesses both prove that you didn't even read the thread and that you have no idea what you're talking about. you never have to commit with sonic, and if you do commit and you die for it, it's cause you didn't wait hard enough. sonic has the luxury to out-wait almost the entire cast and on top of that he can force you into shield, has free followups/a kill move off uthrow, a minimal commitment movement option that both breaks cc and forces knockdown at 0%, a good dash dance, "get out of juggles free" cards, a tool that leads into combos at both low and stupidly high percents, and a good recovery and you think he's "average"?

lmao

 

[NyTR0]

you made arguments that were addressed several times before you even posted. the points you made expressing sonic's weaknesses can all be avoided by reacting to what they do instead of rando-spinning into people. the fact that you even mention them as weaknesses both prove that you didn't even read the thread and that you have no idea what you're talking about. you never have to commit with sonic, and if you do commit and you die for it, it's cause you didn't wait hard enough. sonic has the luxury to out-wait almost the entire cast and on top of that he can force you into shield, has free followups/a kill move off uthrow, a minimal commitment movement option that both breaks cc and forces knockdown at 0%, a good dash dance, "get out of juggles free" cards, a tool that leads into combos at both low and stupidly high percents, and a good recovery and you think he's "average"?

lmao

What recovery? Oh you mean the one that doesn't sweetspot? Or do you mean the one that's unsafe to use cause it doesn't trade. Please. Getting stuff done with Sonic can be a mission while other characters still have so many free things. You actually expected me to read this thread from like the first comment or something? Get real. I walked in here thinking it was a tier list speculation not a thread full of ***ttalking on peoples mains claiming how they're too good just cause they can't handle a mu. There's a pause button. Too OP. Remove pls.

 

[StarshipGroove]

You people's obsession with making everything "fair" and "interactive" and normalized and boring is going to KILL this game

A game with over 40 unique ****ing characters is bound to have some characters that deviate from the norm, have strong moves/recovery or are less fun than your average melee matchup
you aren't the only one playing a character so please stop with the "pls change my main because he's unfun to play against and these changes would make it a perfect fit for me"
it's impossible to design the game so that every combo will require "interaction" and expert DI because every character has wildly different physics and reacts differently to combo moves
jank and unfun matchups are in every fighting game and sometimes the jank is even a celebrated feature of the game in question, see for example MvC2 and MELEE
GET OVER IT, the game and the characters will have to be finalized eventually, everything can't be changed forever

 

[didds]

So I know Yoshi had a bit of a hype train a bit back, are people still considering him to be top 15 to top 10 or so?
I like the guy, but he definitely has his exploitable drawbacks.

edit: sorry for actually getting back on topic guys

 

[AceGamer]

So I know Yoshi had a bit of a hype train a bit back, are people still considering him to be top 15 to top 10 or so?
I like the guy, but he definitely has his exploitable drawbacks.

edit: sorry for actually getting back on topic guys

I know I consider him top 20 at least, especially after watching Vectorman play PM Yoshi the other day. Although what's keeping him from top 10 imo is that footstools screw him over big time lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yoshi is only truly godly if you've joined the C Stick Attack master race, and can therefore properly DJC reverse nair. Trigger jump helps a lot too.

I don't think he'll reveal his top-tierdom until some mystery insanely technical player comes along and embarrasses absolutely everyone.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

People complaining is what got Zelda changed, Sonic was actually ridiculous. Just learn the MU, learn the MU, throw out random nairs against sonic beating him is ez. No it doesn't work that way and GnW doesn't feel like he wins in any meaningful way. Against GnW it's extremely easy to bait and punish him, that's how i play it as Sheik and as Sonic it is even easier, you just poke him into a corner until he feels forced to UpB then chase him with aerials.(inb4 but dair is sooo disjointed and safe) Characters like Kirby and Mario with good fast lasting bairs feel much more potent, especially at the ledge because Sonic's UpB has no hitbox.

I think you're point of view of sonic may be skewed based on the character you pic. GnW has alot of laggy moves, though they come out quickly, they last a while once they are out. Sonic game plan is bait and punish, it would make sense that as a GnW main that you strugggle against that.

Other than that sonic does have a certain level of commitment to his specials, especially his down b. Both moves do not have much priority and could be easily beat out by an aerial. This coupled with the fact that sonic struggles against strong projectile characters.

His Side B is trouble some, but it was pointed it out that it can be teched. If you can tech it then you could tech roll.

Player-0 brought up alot of good points about sonic(honestly don't feel like repeating them). Bottom line is yes sonic spin options are good but there are very simple solutions to them. I.e Nair on Sonic Down b

Another guy mention that ^ this only matters if the other player is overly aggressive because sonic does not have to approach. Well thats how people play at top level, they try to bait each other out. Just get the better read in the situation. Try to force sonic to approach.(i do realize with some characters this may be more difficult, im speaking generally). Getting sonic to chase you can even work, just throw out a retreating attack. I.e Marth: dash dance away > SH Bair.

If you have a strong projectile game like Mario, you have alot of control over the space sonic operates in. Projectiles are a good way to force him to approach, or in other unfavorable positions.

Swordies like marth can also effectively combat his speed nd mixups by walling sonic out with range.

hopefully sonic doesn't get changed, i personally love they way he fights in PM. He's just requires a different approach. Lots of MU have that i.e spacies. Don't change plz.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'd have less beef with sonic if I could tell what move he is flying at me with so I could react properly. I try to cc the dash attack/late nair and it's just a side b and I get carried into a combo. I shield something and they jc grab me out of one of the spins and then I get gimped easily or carried to the blastzones.

There's definitely some counterplay to sonic, but it's harder than I needs to be because so many of his moves are so visually similar, differing mostly on start up (Did he hop slightly or charge for a moment, or was he running at me or jumping?).

Sonic is crazy but tbh I'd rather he just got animations changed so I can know what tf he's doing, which would open up more consistent counterplay to his approaches. He still wouldn't have to approach, but it's a start. No reason to nerf sonics ability to run away and control engages if falcon (and fox lol) can still do it

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'd have less beef with sonic if I could tell what move he is flying at me with so I could react properly. I try to cc the dash attack/late nair and it's just a side b and I get carried into a combo. I shield something and they jc grab me out of one of the spins and then I get gimped easily or carried to the blastzones.

There's definitely some counterplay to sonic, but it's harder than I needs to be because so many of his moves are so visually similar, differing mostly on start up (Did he hop slightly or charge for a moment, or was he running at me or jumping?).

Sonic is crazy but tbh I'd rather he just got animations changed so I can know what tf he's doing, which would open up more consistent counterplay to his approaches. He still wouldn't have to approach, but it's a start. No reason to nerf sonics ability to run away and control engages if falcon (and fox lol) can still do it

Agreed. I can hardly tell what the guys doing. Maybe add a blue or red tint to differentiate the down b to side b? Idk, anything could help. Ofcourse he's a fast character and I'll be the first to admit idk the matchup, but its hard to react to stuff you can't make out. If something is fast in games, usually it's made abundantly clear within 1 second what is happening so the player can combat it (See WarioWare, very smart game design there). I think the PMDT need to take that into consideration.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Top Tier:


Low Tier:

HAHAHAHA lolno

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

I'd have less beef with sonic if I could tell what move he is flying at me with so I could react properly.

i can understand you're gripes about how all his moves look similar. I have never really had this problem but it is understandable. Just don't want to see another character be unnecessarily nerfed. He aint that bad to fight against.

Though Sonic "doesn't have to approach" because of his movement/mixup potential and speed; Sonic does not really have any tools to make you approach. So its not like how fox doesn't have to approach. fox has speed and overwhelming pressure, but doesnt have to approach because of his lasers. Sonic lacks such a tool. A tool in neutral that pressure opponents to approach him.

So though sonic never has to approach, he going to have to at some point. Unless you and him are going to be sitting there dash dancing for 8 minutes.

but hey i play mario so my projectile game is cray. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Warzenschwein]

"SHEEEIT a tier list, let's ignore the rest of the post and rant"

 

[\Apples]

Don't shield Wario's Dair, dodge it.

 

[JOE!]

Y'all complaining about the entire character of Sanic and I'm just here wishing Flamethrower wasn't so ass.

Seriously, in a perfect scenario if you are hit by the flames you have a +16 frame advantage over Zard at minimum.