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DUDE SICK ARGUMENT I REALLY UNDERSTOOD YOUR POINTS TALKING ABOUT THE GAME HAHAHA YOU GOT ME THERE!!!!
you must have been pretty good then lol
Ripple
- viability and subsequently tiers are based off of who the player base is mostly likely to lose to. since you keep winning with DDD, there's no way we can say he's low tier yet.
ok first of all you really dont understand what ****posting is. ****posting is talking about something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand or the game at all. for example, even though i giggle like an idiot every time i read them, 90% of @DMG 's posts.
the players define the tier list on tournament day, not at their computers on a monday. you're the only real top DDD player, and therefore the best indication of what the character can do. it's an achievement held by few, so good ****.
...with side-b. My claims are just about as backed-up as yours, Steel. Y'know, not really at all. Mostly because I figure anybody reading and seriously looking into formulating some kind of tier list would understand how certain characters work and why, and Falcon stands pretty high on that list.
yeah no **** good going bucko
there has been soooo many examples of low tiers beating high tiers in fighting games. it really isnt shocking. i understand how falcon wrks and i understand how oli works. and how oli works, while bad in alot of matchups, works perfectly to make falcon's life worse. he cant dash dance with a pikmin on him, he cant approach with aerials because olimar's options cover his short hop trajectory.
You're right. Here's a better one.
There's more to it than just down-b, but yeah. You haven't been wrong so far.
it does nt kill pikmin unless each hit does 14%
Anther's been the top PM pika forever dude
Okay. Say you do get the pikmin on Sonic. I've played against Olimar enough to know this considering one of the guys from my crew has Olimar as a secondary. You get the pikmin on me but I know for a fact that it doesn't stop sonic in his tracks. Sonic can act out of his down b possibly get either the same or even more damage on Olimar than what you did to him. This is especially true with his side b since he can JC grab out of it and cc'ing won't help cause then you're risking sonic dragging you off stage with less pikmin that what you need to recover. Sonic has the mobility to just jump over the pikmin and can possibly just take the pikmins damage but in return combo olimar like crazy. By the time Olimar can do anything to retaliate, Knuckles is gonna be released and Olimar has a new recovery. I'm telling you, this isn't a hard matchup at all. Especially considering Olimars S tier recovery.
it doesnt stop sonic but it stops him from dashdancing or doing yhings that aremt putting out s hitbox. it doesnt matter that you can jc it because you have a choice between getting pivot grabbed or if you wavedash and reset it you just get another pikmin on you. to be fair i havemt played the matchup enough to know so it all really theory. really wish an oli player that okayed against a sonic of equal skill was here to talk about this but both characters run few and thin
NyTR0
I still want nerfs
It's not a real update if olimar isint nerfed
I guess I touched a nerve on that one kek
The closest thing I have is a very very old replay I have on my SD card. It shows Olimar tossing out a Pikmin at me while I was in down b state. Sonic killed the pikmin off of him before it even did damage to him. From all that I'd gathered around my area and from a post on the Sonic thread it seems not many people have trouble against him as Sonic. Quite a few people believe that the mu is indeed in Sonic's favor. I've played against 2 Oli's (both of them being very good at him) and Sonic was the only character I was able to send them to the dump with.@
Got any vids to show what you mean? Granted, 90% of mu discussion here is based on theory, but I'd like to see what you mean by Oli getting punished for Pikmin Toss as Sonic Down B's. Pikmin Toss is fairly safe to use in neutral due low endlag and I don't see it being able to get punished easily. Sonic's Down B is fast, but to the point where it can be charged be used to punish Pikmin Toss on reaction?
I checked frame data and if it is correct (or I'm reading it properly 9.9) it says Down-B can start moving at frame 11. If you're charging it while in neutral, then depending on where both characters are, you CAN punish Pikmin Toss (IASA frame is 25). Punishing it while Oli is doing it doesn't seem plausible, especially if he Pikmin Slides away (Pikmin Toss > Waveland) to keep his distance.
I personally think that this is pretty even (might be 55-45 in either way) because while Sonic has all the speed in the world to DD to bait and punish, he still has to respect Fsmash, Pivot grab and can't always punish Pikmin Slide. Both characters juggle each other pretty hard, but Oli has aerial kill moves (Purple Up Air, among others) so he can convert into a kill easier then Sonic, who seems to be reliant on star KO's and gimps for his kills. Edgeguarding Oli is ez, especially with possible spring trolls to boot. But Fsmash is god like at edgeguarding Sonic and a poorly timed Up B to recover low can get Sonic Daired.
It feels even from the few matches I played against Sonic, but maybe my scene is bad, my opponent was bad, I was a bit better then my opponent, [insert other variable that sways the outcome of an mu here], etc. Feel free to point out flaws and mistakes in my reasoning politely.
The replay is from like around decemberish.Well, were the videos uploaded somewhere? Not to come off as rude, but making an mu sound like 70-30 or worse and then not having any videos to prove your point in practice doesn't make me inclined to take your word for it
Who were these two "very good" (as such an observation is relative) Olimars? Have they played the MU before? Have you only met once in bracket or otherwise played more then once? How old is the replay?
Just want to cross out mu inexperience as a factor so your claims sound a bit more plausible is all.
And charging down B mid neutral sounds good against Oli, but if one knows about how long Sonic can keep charging they can just Fsmash and force you to jump. Also, trying to mindgame with longer charge release timings will just lead to them taking stage control and/or getting close to make jumping out of Fsmash's way harder, if not impossible.
Actually just re-looked at the video and you are correct. It does knock it off. Thing is you have to depend on a purple pikmin but that factor isn't something that is set. That's if you even get a purple one and all that pikmin tossing to get a purple one is punishable. Also, as someone had mentioned, Sonic can take Oli off stage and even very deep down since he has a crazy vertical recovery. Until we see that Olimar change in 3.6 I don't think there's much to that mu. But honestly you're all saying this to the guy that actually believes anyone has a chance against anyone. That's the mindset I have. I think everyone has an equal chance in a fight. That's just me and it might seem silly.
theres a 20% each pluck that ill get a purple and a 80% chance ill get something i can us eto fsmash with for the same result. pikmin throw isnt ounishable unless youre at like, melee range. ots the same thing as saying fox lasers are punishable.
He was also able to do consistent handoffs with Kirby, which is really difficult. Fumbles played really well and I was disappointed to see him lose those close games with Tetraflora and Oro. Let's not talk about those belays though
.Your proposed changes will only make grabbing stronger than it currently is by guaranteeing damage from pummels, while also still not “validating” pummeling and mashing.
What matters most about fixing bad game design is addressing its function. Adjusting game elements might be perfect for the situation, but removing game elements can be what is necessary. Random tripping is a perfect example of bad game design and it was completely removed which improved the system and the competitive value of the game.
really agree with this sentiment. but, pummeling from grabs is such a strong tradition (and does have some purpose, in maybe making people di wrong and stuff) that i don't see it ever going.
Speaking of kirby, here is a match of mine vs a good kirby at the last big tournament I was at. The kirby beat me last time beating my lucario/fox. This time I tried IC's lol.He was also able to do consistent handoffs with Kirby, which is really difficult. Fumbles played really well and I was disappointed to see him lose those close games with Tetraflora and Oro. Let's not talk about those belays though
I didn't say my proposed system was perfect. But it's better than the current system. In the current system, pummel damage is already guaranteed past a certain percent, and my system would use the same general numbers. The main difference is you actually do have to sacrifice DI in some scenarios for mashing, because potential pummel damage goes from like, 3-9% (depending on your current percent) to like 10-20% if you choose to not mash and just DI instead. In Melee you were basically guaranteed a pummel for every ~35%. In Melee you also generally needed to mash with the control stick usually since your mashing was pretty slow otherwise, so you did actually risk DI. The opponent needs to be a little higher per pummel in PM, or if they use brawl methods for mashing (which still exist in PM) they need to be much higher, like 70-100% per pummel. "Nerfing" players like Dakpo isn't a valid argument, they are mostly abusing brawl's awful pummel mechanics, there's really nothing special about it. My proposal would probably use the same numbers as Melee. Avoiding like 9 extra damage from 3 free pummels isn't inherently the best scenario even vs a throw mix-up like sheik's. Most throw mix-ups like sheiks actually do have a single optimal DI option, for several reasons. First, for example, if you're near the edge, and either throw would give a free hit with bad DI, you DI away from the stage. That way, her combo throw sending offstage doesn't get another free follow-up offstage, and her combo throw sending instage gets a free hit, but you get send inwards. This is also the case with wario's bite. Additionally, most normal grab throw mix-ups don't have identical properties. Using sheik's as an example again, he bthrow has a higher angle and higher release point and less endlag, making it better on faster fallers, so fast fallers generally want to DI for that throw regardless. There's also downward DI, which gives slight DI away for both throws, which is better than no DI. As for characters with throws too slow to not react to, well that's why the system isn't perfect. In those scenarios, there's no real reason not to mash... except in teams scenarios, or to avoid certain grab release shenanigans. As for characters with only one unreactable throw, waiting to see pummels to mash, then trying to DI inbetween them, gives super suboptimal mashing as pummels last less than 30 frames, so given reaction time you'd be mashing less than half of that time. And if you DIDN'T wait for the pummel to try to mash, and the opponent threw early, you'd miss the DI.
This is good.
In these cases, the scenario would just change from the middle scenario I explained earlier to the last one where there is only one relevant unreactable throw.
If a player is knowledgeable and skilled enough, then they could potentially be mashing until just before (a few frames before) the release point of the potential throw and then hold the DI, until they recognize that they are being pummeled a second time which would lead them to doing it again. Certain unreactable throws are actually reactable, just not reactable enough to determine what throw it is, which is only important when there is a DI mixup that is relevant.
That is true, but what is the issue here? I wrote “one relevant unreactable throw.” Even if I was incorrect, it doesn’t change the argument, it would just mean that my example was incorrect.
This shows me the differences between a command grab and a normal grab. It doesn’t explain why pummeling should exist. Also Wario’s bite also had a pummel and it was removed. So, please address these updated questions:
I did not directly compare tripping with mashing at all in my argument. I stated that the removal of bad game design was sometimes necessary and used tripping of an example of when it has applied. I only needed to explain this because you previously denied such a notion by saying “removing game elements isn’t the way to go when fixing bad game design.” I don’t know how you misinterpreted that.
My argument is against a mechanic that lacks value. Why are you comparing such a mechanic with mechanics that do?
