Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

Well, I had a fun run trying out bowser for a week but I started taking games off dart with another character I've been working on.

Sorry odds.

 

[Warzenschwein]

So is anyone else depressed that Xenoblade didn't come out in time for Brawl?

Shulk's Monado Arts seem like a really amazing, deep mechanic and it's wasted on the Smash4 engine :/ Robin, Shulk and Mac would make awesome PM characters with their particular gimmicks.

Deoxys would make a cool addition to the PM roster. She'd kinda have something akin to Shulk's Monado Arts with her transformations. But I doubt that the PM would "waste" a slot on another Pokémon who isn't even that popular.

You're totally right though, I'd love to see what the PMDT would've done with the Sm4sh characters, especially the odd ones like Pac-Man, DHD etc.

 

[Ogopogo]

Deoxys would make a cool addition to the PM roster. She'd kinda have something akin to Shulk's Monado Arts with her transformations.

since when did deoxys have a gender?
And why are we talking about smash 4 characters in PM in a thread where we should be talking about how obnoxious Squirtle is

 

[Warzenschwein]

It doesn't have a gender. It just looks kind female to me. I mean..

WOULD YOU LOOK AT THOSE HIPS

 

[AceGamer]

Deoxys would make a cool addition to the PM roster. She'd kinda have something akin to Shulk's Monado Arts with her transformations. But I doubt that the PM would "waste" a slot on another Pokémon who isn't even that popular.

You're totally right though, I'd love to see what the PMDT would've done with the Sm4sh characters, especially the odd ones like Pac-Man, DHD etc.

Deoxys has no gender lol :3

and it definitley would have been interesting to see the PMDTs takes on some Smash 4 characters. If they did Shulk I would hope that they use more of his real Monado Arts like Purge or Cyclone.

since when did deoxys have a gender?
And why are we talking about smash 4 characters in PM in a thread where we should be talking about how obnoxious Squirtle is

and yes this ^. Here's a Squirtle match with CloudBurst, he's pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udb-TAKCGck
there's some more videos of him on the AZProjectM channel

 

[Life]

Charizard can SH aerial into horizontal waveland with every aerial except nair. Next time someone calls out Ganon for being underrated because of his wavelands, that might be a useful tidbit.

 

[D e l t a]

If we're adding to random discussion on characters.........Lucas has about 5 DI traps into a guaranteed DACUS from 30-80% on most of the cast. The precision and %'s vary based on whether or not he has an OU charge

 

[Warzenschwein]

when you're at ledge and zard ftilts you -> ur ded

 

[D e l t a]

> learn2DI

 

[Warzenschwein]

***** he keeps doing it doe

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Ripple check skype you dingus

Charizard can SH aerial into horizontal waveland with every aerial except nair. Next time someone calls out Ganon for being underrated because of his wavelands, that might be a useful tidbit.

He can, but the difficulty is basically prohibitive, and Zard's aerials aren't even close to being on the same level as Ganon's.

 

[Foo]

Random character talk? Yay! Calling all ganon players that I feel like tagging and odds

@ Frost | Odds @Bazkip @Hungry Headcrab @ CORY

Did you guys know that you can ledgehop invincible upair and regrab ledge? I assume someone does but I've never seen it mentioned. Seems like a 2-3 frame window.

 

[RelaxAlax]

^ Yas

It's tight as a tiger though and I'm scrubby. Usually I opt just to jump on stage again with upair to chase down who I hit, or once their conditioned they **** off from the ledge anyways

Guys btw, Olimar with jetpack.

We'll finally see how mid-tier he is.

 

[CORY]

Random character talk? Yay! Calling all ganon players that I feel like tagging and odds

@ Frost | Odds @Bazkip @Hungry Headcrab @ CORY

Did you guys know that you can ledgehop invincible upair and regrab ledge? I assume someone does but I've never seen it mentioned. Seems like a 2-3 frame window.

someone talked about it somewhere in the ganon boards, but i don't have time to practice tech stuff and i forgot about it : ( it seems like it can be really useful for clearing the edge (or just making people respect the range you can put out off the ledge, at least, allowing you to mixup how you get on stage easier).

 

[Rizner]

im arguing that shes high tier, not top tier. two different ghings.

Question worth asking: How much of the cast do you see in top tier, and how much in high tier?

I think she's mid, and on the lower end of mid. I also put most of the cast in mid tier. If I made a tier list, I'd probably put her like 15-20 from the bottom.

The reasons are as follows:
She loses pretty hard to all (of what I consider to be) top tiers - namely the melee vets. High tiers need to have some winning matchups in there, because going through a tournament bracket you will likely see lots of them. The secondary foxes are too strong.
She has psuedo stage control with dins, which is super effective in some matchups and not really effective in other matchups. I think the characters it is polarizing against aren't good in relation to the rest of the cast (also mid - lower mid) but I could definitely be misunderstanding their viability because most of my interactions with those characters are when I use Zelda (see: my opinions on Ness).

I think you give dins too much respect, and her gtfo options too much value. The teleport can be good, but its usefulness is reduced in 3.5. The ability to shorten it from the air helps with recovery, but iirc you can't actually sweetspot ledges from below still (I remember someone testing this early in 3.5, someone show me I'm wrong pls) so the main benefit you would think it has isn't actually there. Also you can't wavedash out of the grounded ones anymore, so you can't do lots of the options and spacing stuff that would help with the neutral mindgames the old teleport had. She still has a decent recovery, but some characters are able to go out and hit her during the startup, and the neutral is pretty easy to cover options of it for characters that have fast hitboxes.

The dins stage control is an interesting argument, but it's different than things like snake's mines that you related them to earlier. Dins doesn't have kill power anymore. It only lasts for 3 seconds, then goes back to her. It has a decent amount of startup, so it can't be used in the short-range area. Then once it's out, an opponent can just wait, walk up and shield it, or throw out a hitbox if they have one that can clank in a good way (something not super commital and can hit through is best). If Zelda is mid-stage, someone with decent burst movement (let's say fox) can punish a dins cast from ~4 character lengths away. In that case, all they have to do is stand in that range and react to w/e Zelda throws out or tries to do. If Zelda isn't mid stage and is casting from a distance, anyone with a projectile can just sit back and use it, then when the dins goes out it'll either be mid stage so you can just keep projectiling for damage, or it's further out and you can get a free run to it -> shield -> neutral is reset option.

But this is all theory stuff, and your experience is more in-person playing against a really good player. Do you have any videos or stuff that we could take a look at? Times when dins created the stage control you mentioned, so I can better see what you've been looking at and let you know what I see in those same instances would be best.

 

[Foo]

someone talked about it somewhere in the ganon boards, but i don't have time to practice tech stuff and i forgot about it : ( it seems like it can be really useful for clearing the edge (or just making people respect the range you can put out off the ledge, at least, allowing you to mixup how you get on stage easier).

It's easy if you use tap jump. tap down then smash up and hit A. Otherwise, same motion just hit y and slide down to A.

 

[steelguttey]

Question worth asking: How much of the cast do you see in top tier, and how much in high tier?

high tier=top 15 top tier = top 5

all that **** is pointless tho

I think she's mid, and on the lower end of mid. I also put most of the cast in mid tier. If I made a tier list, I'd probably put her like 15-20 from the bottom.

The reasons are as follows:
She loses pretty hard to all (of what I consider to be) top tiers - namely the melee vets. High tiers need to have some winning matchups in there, because going through a tournament bracket you will likely see lots of them. The secondary foxes are too strong.

nearly all high tiers lose to melee vets. ike loses to fox and shiek, peach loses to most of the top 5, even falco loses to new brawl matchups. the thing about zelda is that she has an amazing matchup spread with the lower half of the cast, kinda how shiek is in melee. obviously not to the point of invalidating the lower half, but close to it.

She has psuedo stage control with dins, which is super effective in some matchups and not really effective in other matchups. I think the characters it is polarizing against aren't good in relation to the rest of the cast (also mid - lower mid) but I could definitely be misunderstanding their viability because most of my interactions with those characters are when I use Zelda (see: my opinions on Ness).

what in all hell is pseudo stage control. that means literally nothing, pseudo (spelled it wrong btw) isnt a word that you can use in regards to stage control, it doesnt make sense. what i think you were trying to say is she can cover alot of the ground at once but it isnt effective against alot of characters but thats... all projectiles? except falco lasers maybe? nanners get beat by people with good glide tosses which is completely random across the board in terms of tier placement but it doesnt make them less of a good projectile. in fact i think dins has it good against most of the cast because theres not too many characters that can outcamp zelda because of it that can outcamp other characters (see:ivy)

I think you give dins too much respect, and her gtfo options too much value. The teleport can be good, but its usefulness is reduced in 3.5. The ability to shorten it from the air helps with recovery, but iirc you can't actually sweetspot ledges from below still (I remember someone testing this early in 3.5, someone show me I'm wrong pls) so the main benefit you would think it has isn't actually there. Also you can't wavedash out of the grounded ones anymore, so you can't do lots of the options and spacing stuff that would help with the neutral mindgames the old teleport had. She still has a decent recovery, but some characters are able to go out and hit her during the startup, and the neutral is pretty easy to cover options of it for characters that have fast hitboxes.

ok please stop comparing her to 3.0 zelda, because it doesnt matter. were talking about 3.5 zelda and her tier placements. nobody cares about what she lost. anyway, dins demands respect. a projectile that just sits on stage like that deserves to be respecting and although it can be clanked with, thats kind of what zeldas want you to do. if a zelda sees somebody going to smack a dins theyre going to punish it with a teleport or just run up to them if theyre close enough, its one of the benefits of having a projectile that doesnt move. also, her gtfo options are super good. she has a long pivot grab (correct me on this), lightning kicks that startup super fast, utilt which covers her head and starts up just as fast and usmash which combos into lightning kicks. not to mention neutral b which covers her whole body super quickly and only really gets beat out by disjoints since it cant get hit by projectiles.

The dins stage control is an interesting argument, but it's different than things like snake's mines that you related them to earlier. Dins doesn't have kill power anymore. It only lasts for 3 seconds, then goes back to her. It has a decent amount of startup, so it can't be used in the short-range area. Then once it's out, an opponent can just wait, walk up and shield it, or throw out a hitbox if they have one that can clank in a good way (something not super commital and can hit through is best). If Zelda is mid-stage, someone with decent burst movement (let's say fox) can punish a dins cast from ~4 character lengths away. In that case, all they have to do is stand in that range and react to w/e Zelda throws out or tries to do. If Zelda isn't mid stage and is casting from a distance, anyone with a projectile can just sit back and use it, then when the dins goes out it'll either be mid stage so you can just keep projectiling for damage, or it's further out and you can get a free run to it -> shield -> neutral is reset option.

it doesnt matter that they have kill power anymore, its on a character with a teleport. it sends you into short hop height which is where zelda wants you to be in close quarters. it covers so much of the stage even when its coming back, which gives it even more potential for messing up approaches. also why the **** is zelda throwing out a dins 4 characters lengths away. you should be dash dancing and waitting for this fox to sh nair or somehtihng or just roll the **** outta there cus that matchup sucks until you get a grab (same with every other fox mu). projectiles come in way to many shapes and sizes to be able to do that on every character. in fact, the only character i can say that can do that is spacies and maybe shiek?

But this is all theory stuff, and your experience is more in-person playing against a really good player. Do you have any videos or stuff that we could take a look at? Times when dins created the stage control you mentioned, so I can better see what you've been looking at and let you know what I see in those same instances would be best.

zhime vs melee is a good place to start but sadly zhime doesnt have lots of pm vods that im not lazy enough to find

 

[Agi]

It's easy if you use tap jump. tap down then smash up and hit A. Otherwise, same motion just hit y and slide down to A.

Wouldn't it be a more forgiving input window if you pressed back instead of down to avoid the distance lost from fastfalling a frame?

 

[Foo]

Wouldn't it be a more forgiving input window if you pressed back instead of down to avoid the distance lost from fastfalling a frame?

Idk, probably, but it's easy enough by pressing down and the farther you fall the fewer vulnerable frames you have before grabbing ledge. Also, doesn't pressing back make you go backwards a bit? That would make the upair cover less space on stage.

 

[Jonyc128]

Anyway, back on discussion, what's the consensus on Mario? I've seen few posts about Mario lately and it seems that everyone is okay with the nerfs. He seems like an average, easily playable character with mostly even MUs on the cast. I am unsure of any hard wins or losses for the character.

From what I've played so far, I think Mario's worst MU are Marth, Mewtwo, and Fox, everything else seems incredibly even

 

[DMG]

What is dat other char

I hope it's just a dif costume of D3, don't u leave him!

 

[BlackMamba]

> learn2DI

Not gonna lie it's pretty hard to avoid a lot of the time, since it can be angled and has a ton of KB for a tilt. As zard on a lot of stages versus a decent amount of characters, repeatedly ftilting is actually a legitimate tactic lol

 

[RedBeefBaron]

The brawl tier list had a Shiek/Zelda in addition to Sheik and Zelda separately, and the pair ended up being considered better than either of the two played individually if I recall correctly. How much better do Shiek and Zelda become if we consider how they can change into a completlely different character with a completely different matchup spread if they can get a second to breathe? Sheik is obviously great, so with all this talk about Zelda possibly being quite good too I feel like this should be discussed more.

Also, while many Smash 4 characters would be sweet in PM Greninja would clearly be the call out of the Smash 4 newcomers.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Sheik + Zelda has been discussed to death.
You can probably find a locked thread with 2 pages of discussion and 15 pages of rants and arguments if you use the search feature =)

 

[PlateProp]

in a thread where we should be talking about how obnoxious Squirtle is

My sides

Dont even care about the warning, light my ass up @ Strong Badam

 

[ChiePet]

cough Interjecting for something a little unrelated, but imo Something is incredibly wrong about this. all of this.

Spoiler

EDIT: on topic though, Zelda's relevancy to me is how bad Peach's MU against her improved toolkit in PM is.
Placement wise, Mid. Not high, or Top, just Mid.

 

[Narpas_sword]

cough Interjecting for something a little unrelated, but imo Something is incredibly wrong about this. all of this.

Spoiler

EDIT: on topic though, Zelda's relevancy to me is how bad Peach's MU against her improved toolkit in PM is.
Placement wise, Mid. Not high, or Top, just Mid.

Whats wrong?

One is a discussion about untapped potential in a character, which fits in with tier list discussion.
The other is a bit of a 'game' topic about a fantasy change to your character. discussion that isnt really to do with tiers, and would derail this thread.

 

[ChiePet]

Whats wrong?

One is a discussion about untapped potential in a character, which fits in with tier list discussion.
The other is a bit of a 'game' topic about a fantasy change to your character. discussion that isnt really to do with tiers, and would derail this thread.

Wrong is that the untapped potential thread was immediately locked and had little to no replies/views while the daydreamer post is still open and going strong. #ShakeMyHead

 

[Narpas_sword]

because the locked one is a duplicate of this thread, whereas the daydreamer post isnt =/

 

[Strong Badam]

@ ChiePet If you have an issue with the moderation of this subforum, please send a PM to one of the moderators (myself, standardtoaster, or Shadic) with your grievances. Don't passive-aggressively bring it up in unrelated threads, derailing them and making cause for further moderation.
Narpas_sword is correct. One thread was redundant, hence the locking, while the other was unique. Kinda confused why that isn't obvious.

Back to tier list discussion please.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

so

snake

how bout them snakes

 

[DMG]

I'm tired of them





being on my plane

 

[ChiePet]

@ ChiePet If you have an issue with the moderation of this subforum, please send a PM to one of the moderators (myself, standardtoaster, or Shadic) with your grievances. Don't passive-aggressively bring it up in unrelated threads, derailing them and making cause for further moderation.
Narpas_sword is correct. One thread was redundant, hence the locking, while the other was unique. Kinda confused why that isn't obvious.

Back to tier list discussion please.

Mean

It wasn't passive aggressive at all, it was just sad to see, mod locking or otherwise; I love PM and I just can't really explain why but seeing those two threads side by side with such a vast difference just kinda made a bit more of the Hope I have fleet me. It's not confusing either, I just think you got somehow offended by the post which I'm sorry if it did for any reason, but just the imagery of Random Flourishing and the Daydreamer speculating this game's future being stunted was just depressing; sometimes I watch this thread derail into arguments/flame wars instead of discussing a character's true potential and placement and I'll always have my fingers crossed for this game because I support it (and Peach) to no end. Excuse it's irrelevance, please; I'm usually not off-topic.

 

[NW_Gump]

What do you guys think about Lucario in terms of balance? I think his design inherently makes him a good character in a game like this, where his combos are unrivaled in terms of options. I think they could do away with the invincibility on Down-B but I don't think he should be nerfed really.

Also on a similar but unrelated note, In terms of the Brawl characters/Melee characters with overhauls, who do you think is the best designed? I think Ike, Lucas, and maybe ROB are examples of well designed characters. It's been echoed to death but Bowser is an example of one that is NOT very well designed in my eyes. What do you guys think?

Edit for spelling:

 

[ChiePet]

What do you guys think about Lucario in terms of balance? I think his design inherently makes him a good character in a game like this, where his combos are unrivaled in terms of options. I think they could do away with the invincibility on Down-B but I don't think he should be nerfed really.

Also on a similar but unrelated note, In terms of the Brawl characters/Melee characters with overhauls, who do you think is the best designed? I think Ike, Lucas, and maybe ROB are examples of well designed characters. It's been echoed to death but Bowser is an example of one that is NOT very well designed in my eyes. What do you guys think?

Edit for spelling:

ASC aka Aura Sphere Cancelling; He's really good. Still think he's top 5, top8 minimum.

 

[Blazing Ambition]

What do you guys think about Lucario in terms of balance? I think his design inherently makes him a good character in a game like this, where his combos are unrivaled in terms of options. I think they could do away with the invincibility on Down-B but I don't think he should be nerfed really.

Also on a similar but unrelated note, In terms of the Brawl characters/Melee characters with overhauls, who do you think is the best designed? I think Ike, Lucas, and maybe ROB are examples of well designed characters. It's been echoed to death but Bowser is an example of one that is NOT very well designed in my eyes. What do you guys think?

Edit for spelling:

I like squirtle. He feels like a slippery bootleg falcon, and he has good specials.
He's fast, small, and has good aerials (reverse bair is so much easier compared to ganon/falcon plus, it looks cool and combos into fair and stuff) but he's got a hard time getting in on characters that can throw out big hitboxes and/or just armor through his moves.
That being said, my squirtle is totally fradulent so disregard everything I say.

Falcon feels pretty good too, both playing as and against.
He kinda poops on a lot of characters when he gets in, but when momentum shifts most characters have a fun time roughing him up. Falcon just sorta forces you to play super on-point, or else you're gonna eat a bunch of up-airs and (probably) a knee.
But as soon as you grab him (or even get him offstage), it feels like you're playing 64.

Also the Project M up-throw is freaking bonkers.
I guess falcon needs to CG fox
Or get free knees on every character ever
But man.
Getting chaingrabbed in a falcon ditto sucks SO BAD

 

[NW_Gump]

ASC aka Aura Sphere Cancelling; He's really good. Still think he's top 5, top8 minimum.

I agree about his positioning, but what exactly are you saying about ASC? Are you saying that alone is what boosts him up to that high tier position?

 

[DMG]

Getting chaingrabbed in a falcon ditto sucks SO BAD

He had those in Melee. It's mostly a byproduct of not DIing properly away though. He manages it easier on Roy/Lucas/MK/Diddy because he can attempt it earlier than Spacies, who fall too fast early on for any real CG potential.

A lot of perceived Falcon throw differences from Melee to PM, at this point at least, are placebo or over-stated.

 

[Blazing Ambition]

He had those in Melee. It's mostly a byproduct of not DIing properly away though. He manages it easier on Roy/Lucas/MK/Diddy because he can attempt it earlier than Spacies, who fall too fast early on for any real CG potential.

A lot of perceived Falcon throw differences from Melee to PM, at this point at least, are placebo or over-stated.

I suppose you're right.
Nothing worth arguing over, really. I'm probably just salty and bad.

 

[DMG]

It's a great throw, tossed onto one of the most brutal possible characters. People would quit if Marth had Knee finisher out of his Uthrow