D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Now just try to get a hit on a Spacie as TL in neutral
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
to be fair all of your example characters are garbage vs spacies (both of them). i think ripple's assessment is spot on, fox and falco are both so strong against non-grab conversions that you pretty much need a throw designed to murder them to have a close MU (only exception i can think of offhand is zelda upsmash).
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Same for ZSS. Her Dtilt, Utilt & Uthrow don't do anything to Spacies until they're over 50% or so.
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The fast falling nature of those characters is what makes them difficult to combo at low % if you don't have a move/throw that either is Easy to grab/juggle after or knocks down.
For a lot of the cast, at low % when stray hits don't knock down/go into tumble, they are still launched and easier to follow up due to being higher above the ground (or fat or slow or whatever ). When you hit fox with stray moves it can be difficult to follow up because many launchers won't set up more follow ups until it allows for a tech chase. Unless you have upthrows with good base knockback and frame advantage that lets you regrab or upsmash, etc (think marth, ness, peach, wolf, lucas, etc upthrows) often all you get off early throws are tech chases for positioning. I know that many characters can't upthrow spacies at 0 without getting shined out of the animation (diddy, tink, maybe ivy come to mind). I know diddy's chain grab doesn't start on spacies until around 35% (with no DI, if they DI correctly away it starts at like 40ish).
Then you get tech chases on them with them all having above average tech rolls (falcos being one of the best in the game) as well as having one of the best, low commitment wake up options in shine. For slower characters often they can't even catch up to techs away from them, ganon has no hope to catch di away tech away on jab if fox has room to do that (he always should too).
A lot of this is potentially off set by the ease of comboing fast fallers once you break into that % range where it's hard knock downs and CC will break from most launchers. Basically in a weird sense it allows for them to make more mistakes at low % in many MUs, but after stray hits get them to certain threashhold, confirms into death are ez (As opposed to floaties thatare easy to juggle/combo early but then you get no true strings and kill conforms are hard). Ballance? Idk if fox/falco/wolf who already are so commanding in neutral need more leniency in the start of stocks. Falcon appreciates it though (Edit: mean falcon not always getting converted easily from stray hits, rip falcon tech rolls)
Combos on Spacie have to be tech chases+chaingrabs/throw move regrabs until the juggles get easy, converting off stray hits is harder on spacies than it is on, say roy.
Honestly fatties and then roy/diddy+other mid fast fallers are the easiest to combo.
For a lot of the cast, at low % when stray hits don't knock down/go into tumble, they are still launched and easier to follow up due to being higher above the ground (or fat or slow or whatever ). When you hit fox with stray moves it can be difficult to follow up because many launchers won't set up more follow ups until it allows for a tech chase. Unless you have upthrows with good base knockback and frame advantage that lets you regrab or upsmash, etc (think marth, ness, peach, wolf, lucas, etc upthrows) often all you get off early throws are tech chases for positioning. I know that many characters can't upthrow spacies at 0 without getting shined out of the animation (diddy, tink, maybe ivy come to mind). I know diddy's chain grab doesn't start on spacies until around 35% (with no DI, if they DI correctly away it starts at like 40ish).
Then you get tech chases on them with them all having above average tech rolls (falcos being one of the best in the game) as well as having one of the best, low commitment wake up options in shine. For slower characters often they can't even catch up to techs away from them, ganon has no hope to catch di away tech away on jab if fox has room to do that (he always should too).
A lot of this is potentially off set by the ease of comboing fast fallers once you break into that % range where it's hard knock downs and CC will break from most launchers. Basically in a weird sense it allows for them to make more mistakes at low % in many MUs, but after stray hits get them to certain threashhold, confirms into death are ez (As opposed to floaties thatare easy to juggle/combo early but then you get no true strings and kill conforms are hard). Ballance? Idk if fox/falco/wolf who already are so commanding in neutral need more leniency in the start of stocks. Falcon appreciates it though (Edit: mean falcon not always getting converted easily from stray hits, rip falcon tech rolls)
Combos on Spacie have to be tech chases+chaingrabs/throw move regrabs until the juggles get easy, converting off stray hits is harder on spacies than it is on, say roy.
Honestly fatties and then roy/diddy+other mid fast fallers are the easiest to combo.
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Falcon doesn't get that leniency much though, cause his tech rolls suk. Get floored instead of CG'd or juggled doesn't mean much if people can cover a lot of it on reaction. Might as well DI away, tech in place, and hope they mess up every time
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RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
Can we...can we unpack this a little bit?
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Foo
Smash Lord
YES YES YES YES SO MUCH THIS I WISH I HAD 50 UPVOTES TO GIVE. I am so sick and tired of people saying I should be able to zero to death fox whenever and that's why he's not OP, even though that's only true for a handful of characters (and not even then, really). It also is infuriating that what is supposed to be foxes greatest weakness means he invalidates my characters greatest strength. Combo character vs supposedly combo food character equals practically no combos. Oh well, at least zss can actually combo rob and samus pretty well, so we have that going for us which is nice.
Her dtilt and upthrow don't do anything until like 90% unless they DI in. Uptilt can link to fair or bair around like 70% and chains to itself or something like dash attack or grab depending on DI, and it will usually chain into itself once or twice unless they SDI around 50%.
EDIT: @
mimgrim
below me. If spacies had a more reasonable fall speed spacie players would all cry bloody murder. I already have heard people near me unironically talk about how they "gutted fox in PM" and how that's why PM sucks.
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
I always wondered what it would be like if Spacies had a fall speed more inline with Roy/Tink/Ect... as a roundabout kinda way.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I feel ZSS needs a buff in some way. She has Fsmash which only hits opponents who are bad or get hit by dsmash, which once again, usually only happens if they're bad or get tech chased. Bair&Fair are decent at killing, but only once they get to stupidly high % around 120%. Uair kills around the same % on floaties iirc. Basically her neutral is meh with startup and extra cooldown on the stun gun, sideB has startup, and all her moves are basically pokes or light hits that can be CC'd.
I feel that ZSS primarily excels in teams more than singles due to her good mobility and control of tight space. She can rely on her partner to get the kills and her punish game is more focused on off stage gimps & she can get random hits like smash attacks & aerials
I feel that ZSS primarily excels in teams more than singles due to her good mobility and control of tight space. She can rely on her partner to get the kills and her punish game is more focused on off stage gimps & she can get random hits like smash attacks & aerials
Myst007_teh_newb
Smash Journeyman
ZSS is perfectly fine in her current iteration, imo. Her kit is designed in such a way that she loses the spacie matchup at first glance, but I think that her mobility and movement options raise her potential skill ceiling super duper high. Tbh, I'm a pretty lazy player and freestyle a ton of my matches, yet I manage to skate by just fine. If one of the ZSS mains put in the hard, hard work and did some 20GG stuff with ZSS and figured out optimal, frame-safe tech punishes on fast fallers at all %s as well as perfecting her insane offstage edge guarding game, then I can see her cracking into top 10. She's a little Falcon with a gun and an extra jump.
She bad, but she good.
She bad, but she good.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
There's already a few ZSS players and they mostly despise the MU. She was basically designed to lose the MU, similar to Falcon in Melee. Unlike Falcon, ZSS is lighter and can get gimped just as hard as Falcon. Her neutral is only slightly better than Falcon's in this MU, but she lacks hard hitting moves and the punish game that Falcon has. One knee or stomp -> combo followup can lead to death. For ZSS, she does not have such great punishes, or at least not to the level that Falcon does.
D
Deleted member
Guest
ZSS is like the most anti-gimp character since vbrawl GAW
also "slightly better neutral than CF" is ridiculously good. CF shuts down huge chunks of the cast with DD/CC grab already.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Don't go saying ZSS needs good kill moves. She's a god at moving around the stage, punishing any kind of commitment, poking, and converting big off minor stagger situations. It makes sense that she kills late, given her punishments can extend pretty long (well, on most not-FFers). ZSS with good kill moves would be fox.
EDIT: and if you think her recovery is bad or easily gimped just because tether nerfs, lmao you don't understand the important of short-distance recovery options. Sure, if she's sent far out at a low angle, she's forced to tether after she down-bs then tether jumps out of it. Most characters won't even get anything at that point, ZSS gets a tether hop, which can still lead to a ground tech/onstage situation depending on the character. And if she's up close, she's got down-b, dive kick, both of which cancel into a double jump, which she can extend with tether jumps, she has good wall jumps and can wall jump out of down-b after down-bing back to the wall out of a wall jump, using both of those to place aerials near the edge to convince people not to edgehog her tether. She even has a much bigger range for tethering than most tether characters- up-b tethers really high, side-b tethers from afar. And down-b ****ing refreshes when hit. Why
EDIT: and if you think her recovery is bad or easily gimped just because tether nerfs, lmao you don't understand the important of short-distance recovery options. Sure, if she's sent far out at a low angle, she's forced to tether after she down-bs then tether jumps out of it. Most characters won't even get anything at that point, ZSS gets a tether hop, which can still lead to a ground tech/onstage situation depending on the character. And if she's up close, she's got down-b, dive kick, both of which cancel into a double jump, which she can extend with tether jumps, she has good wall jumps and can wall jump out of down-b after down-bing back to the wall out of a wall jump, using both of those to place aerials near the edge to convince people not to edgehog her tether. She even has a much bigger range for tethering than most tether characters- up-b tethers really high, side-b tethers from afar. And down-b ****ing refreshes when hit. Why
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Foo
Smash Lord
I'd agree with the top 10 part if we replaced all of the fast fallers with other characters, but as it stands you just aren't going to beat players on your skill level who know the matchup if they are fast fallers. They will have their normal punish game on you, and you will have a really crap punish game on them. You have the tools to maneuver around them, but if you have to do that 70% of the time to go even in punish, you just aren't going to beat players as good as you. If there weren't fast fallers, her worst matchups would be like shiek and kirby (imo) and those are totally doable, albeit extremely annoying.
As for the tech chase stuff, zss can do the melee falcon reaction upthrow tech chase on spacies, BUT WAIT, her jab got nerfed in 3.5 and no longer resets them =/ Guess it's just a mixup.
I have spent a crap ton of time theorying up how to beat spacies and here's the best I've come up with to even out the matchup.
The goal is just to get them off stage at a fairly low angle with things like surprise fthrow, d-ftilt etc. When they are falling, short hop and blaster falling off stage (you can vary this anywhere from slightly above ledge, even with ledge, or really far down). Mixing up the timing on reaction to their firefox or phantasm (phantasm needs a read, unless I am just slow) will let you blaster them. If they were close, you can jump nair or upair to secure a gimp and if they weren't, you should be able to just tether ledge and for a high probability gimp. Haven't had a chance to see if good players can adapt to that or not. (also, you have to hit fox with blaster BEFORE he starts moving otherwise firefox just eats it. I think it beats falco and idk about wolf.)
That's really it. I can't think of anything else other than just "being better."
Neutral better than falcon's what? How do you figure that? ZSS has more platform tricks and tricky mobility, but falcon is faster and has that nair. All of his approaches are safer than zss too. If you are thinking of blaster, it does nothing in this matchup other than say "pls nair me I've been bad." Also, falcon's side-b is another key helper in the matchup. If zss had just one vertical trajectory move to tech chase with, it'd be so much more fun and make her fast faller matchups more fair. I mean, damn, I'd rather be against 70-30 matchups against every character than be forced to play against fast fallers as her current self, especially since fox/falco/falcon are three of the most popular characters.
Her recovery is really dumb right now. There are a few characters like MK and Marth who get absolutely free punishes on zss recovery (marth gets either fsmash or bair on reaction so fade back isn't an option). There are some others who can throw out a lingering hitbox so that she can't reel in and kill her no matter what there (kirby comes to mind) and all the other characters can do absolutely nothing but hope zss messes up her fade back option (which, granted, is really easy to do).
Woah woah. Giving her kill moves would not make her fox. She'd still need a bs throw, shine, linger hitbox kill/combo moves that are really safe on shield etc. etc.
However, I agree completely. Her kill options should be subpar. I have absolutely no issues with fsmash or dsmash, however meh they may be. Zss should have the dichotomy of really dinky, but fast and versatile moves and then some really good hitboxes tied to high start up/lag.
As for her recovery, the main thing that makes her recovery dumb is that she can down-b back onto stage after her tether drop if done frame perfectly. If mistimed, you can wall jump waveland (or bair, or whatever) back onto stage. However, some character can ledgehop bair/nair whatever her fade back on reaction making you have to drift in and eat a free hit that your opponent doesn't even have to think about. Her recovery is good, but it's really really lame and should be changed.
(also, down-b shouldn't refresh after being hit I have no idea why they took away all of her cool but fair stuff and left that in like wtf.)
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
The point was not that she'd be identical to fox. She does in fact have tools fox doesn't have, so it's not like she she's a worse fox in every way; rather they're both extremely mobile characters with tools for a lot of situations, and no crippling weaknesses (except ZSS straight being unable to effectively punish 4 members of the cast), they don't need moves to kill directly out of neutral on top of that. But fox does anyway. IMO that'd be the best way to fix fox, is to weaken his moves/tools that kill directly out of his god tier neutral (even upsmash which is still very strong). I think it's okay to have a character that should be expected to win neutral more than twice as often as their opponent, so long as they actually HAVE to do that to secure a kill. Fox usually doesn't, yet if it comes to that he can do it anyways. Other characters like Sheik can fairly consistently end stocks with one success in neutral, but their neutral isn't exactly winning awards.
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Life
Smash Hero
As I've always said, if we're gonna nerf Fox, just nerf Fox's kill moves and be done with it. He's got probably the strongest neutral game and almost certainly the strongest combo game, so at least make him have to win neutral a couple more times a game.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Fox feels super balanced to me in PM with lasers not doing nearly as much as Melee except still forcing an approach. Shine will always be shine, but recoveries are so good in PM that most chars can survive at least 1 shine spike. The stages are also much larger allowing for you to escape being shined all the way across stage then getting shine spiked / forced at the ledge (unless you have low traction like Lucas, Luigi, IC's, etc).
As for why ZSS' neutral seems better than Falcon, yes she has blaster, but that's not my main point. Her disjoint and faster ranged attacks do really well to get tons of pokes at the opponent. Her specials are all good at setting up for normals. Her normals are mostly chip damage such as jab, Ftilt, and all her aerials at low %. The main part of neutral is all about little pokes in addition to vying for stage control so that you can set up for a punish, ledge guard or kill move.
Almost all of ZSS' moves are based around light pokes and jabs at the enemy. Her moveset is basically designed to wall out opponents and tech chase. With her crawling ability that Falcon lacks, she can duck against certain attacks that normally would hit Falcon / other cast members. Her UpB OoS is also a quick GTFO me move and if the opponent tries approaching from above, she has all of her "up" attacks including UpB, Uair, etc that can anti-air approaches way faster than Falcon.
I'm not saying she's the best or worst in any case. I personally feel that her main downside is the lack of ability to secure kills in the fashion that other characters have in addition to what was mentioned above about not being able to combo fast fallers with ease. Most characters have a quick smash attack or really good aerial kill moves (Mario Dsmash, Lucas most attacks, Luigi aerials, Falcon Knee, ROB Nair, Jiggs rest, etc).
As for why ZSS' neutral seems better than Falcon, yes she has blaster, but that's not my main point. Her disjoint and faster ranged attacks do really well to get tons of pokes at the opponent. Her specials are all good at setting up for normals. Her normals are mostly chip damage such as jab, Ftilt, and all her aerials at low %. The main part of neutral is all about little pokes in addition to vying for stage control so that you can set up for a punish, ledge guard or kill move.
Almost all of ZSS' moves are based around light pokes and jabs at the enemy. Her moveset is basically designed to wall out opponents and tech chase. With her crawling ability that Falcon lacks, she can duck against certain attacks that normally would hit Falcon / other cast members. Her UpB OoS is also a quick GTFO me move and if the opponent tries approaching from above, she has all of her "up" attacks including UpB, Uair, etc that can anti-air approaches way faster than Falcon.
I'm not saying she's the best or worst in any case. I personally feel that her main downside is the lack of ability to secure kills in the fashion that other characters have in addition to what was mentioned above about not being able to combo fast fallers with ease. Most characters have a quick smash attack or really good aerial kill moves (Mario Dsmash, Lucas most attacks, Luigi aerials, Falcon Knee, ROB Nair, Jiggs rest, etc).
Nerfing Fox's kill moves is gonna do jack for characters that suffer badly due losing neutral. You're still forced to approach a character that has the best shield pressure in the game. Take away one of those, it makes no sense that in a version that cuts down on the jank still has a character whose traits force a lose-lose situation regardless of what you do.
Foo
Smash Lord
She has very very low disjoint on her neutral tools. Nair has VERY little forward range, so you basically have to cross up shields with it in nuetral, and it's short range also means it loses harder to cc. Since it doesn't send into tumble until mid %s, it loses even harder to cc. Falcon nair, on the other hand, has disjoint (for some reason....) with crazy range and good coverage while linking into stuff like grab and not being nearly as punishable with cc thanks to the long range. Also, falcon upair comes out only very slightly later than zss upair, and covers much more space. (also, zss up-b oos is awful. It's basically the width of rest lol. They have to be inside you for it to hit)
She has exactly one good neutral tool over falcon which you haven't mentioned and that's spaced back air, but falcon's nair is a better neutral tool overall imo. It's also worth noting that, while this technically doesn't change neutral, falcon's dd grab is MUCH stronger than zss's because falcon's throws are OP as **** and ZSS throws are bad.
ZSS has many more weaknesses than poor kill potential. That's a really easy weakness to circumvent. BY FAR her biggest weakness is her lack of good vertical combo tools because it gives her "pick up a secondary" matchups against some of the most popular and strong characters in the game. Behind that would be her throws, since the best you can get is tech chases unless they flub DI. Third would be her weakness to CC. A lot of characters can crouch under a large chunk of her moves (kirby and shiek especially) and all of her combo tools have very low baseknockback and usually have fairly low range. Stuff like nair, upair, dtilt and weakbair won't even send enemies into tumble until mid %s. Moves like side-b and down-smash that have good enough range to punish cc are dodgeable on reaction since they come out so slowly, and sorta lose to cc anyway. (cc makes side-b not pop up and reduces d-smash stun to almost nothing).
Forcing approaches is all his lasers ever did anyway. Now they do less damage, sure, but how often is that actually relevant? Most characters cannot survive a shine spike unless they still have a jump, and large stages are great for fox too as they giv ehim more room to dash dance and laser camp and it gives him more room to connect stuff like shine to upsmash. Even still, the stage pool isn't that much larger than melee on most stage lists. Most stage lists don't run dreamland AND distant planet AND norfair AND skyworld AND (etc. etc. etc.) Mine only runs dreamland and norfair for big stages.
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
Since we're on Fox talk, I had the random idea last night of making Shine more like 64's in that it cancels on land rather than jump. Fox still has shield pressure with the other stuff we know Fox for, but will rely more on mixups between landing shine, jab, grab, grounded shine, or another jump shine, and he loses the ability to wavedash out of shine so it's hard to follow up or retreat. Shine spikes would be slightly riskier as well
Edit: also RIP multishines
instant Edit2: Oh wait never mind it's still possible, maybe even easier
Edit: also RIP multishines
instant Edit2: Oh wait never mind it's still possible, maybe even easier
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The Baron
Smash Apprentice
Do you mean that it cancels when it hits instead of you having to jump out of it but there's no way to jump out of it if it misses? If so that would make shines a huge commitment and super punishable on wiff which I guess is the point. Also if we change fox's shine what do we do about falco and wolf. Do their shines play by the old rules or do we adapt them to the new rules because fox?
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
I'm talking about the ability to cancel shine in the air by landing while it's active, but no way of cancelling it otherwise just like in Smash 64. I don't know if changing how it works for the other spacies is necessary, just because their "root" character is different doesn't mean they have to be
Gawain the Knight
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 133
I honestly think fox has been nerfed as much as necessary, maybe give him pal recovery and that's it. We want the root character to stay the same, and honestly he's fine as is, just a bit annoying. He is no longer that unbeatable character from melee, more like a final boss we all must beat now. of course characters like ZSS that have no tools for him should be revisited.
D
Deleted member
Guest
so we keep fox and nerf the rest of the cast around him, and that's better? wat?
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
More like, every other character needs to "git gud" in their own way. Did I interpret that right?
lol wut
You mean just a buff to recovery because it's busted... not an actual jet-pack I'll assume.
Given the amount of content in the game is pretty much the same as it was a couple years ago, the amount of content that's been given the 'not-as-cool-as-the-rest-of-the-game' tag has diminished amazingly.
Game = bettar than evar.
Not sure it's salt.
I love Tink (and Ike, who I also mentioned)
They're really not the most brain-required-to-play characters to do VERY well with.
Auto-plays built-in to everything from being a disjointed fast character with ranged force-opponent-to-act tools. Somebody has to be leaning lack way in the game, so the complex characters could be called complex at all in reflection.
I straight-up think Sheik is one of the hardest top-contenders to play in Melee when it comes to end-game. Harder than spacies or Marth or Peach or Falcon or Jiggs ever could be (not harder than Pika though)
If I were to throw PM Tink/Ike into the top-contender melee-mix, I'd say they'd be the easiest 2 of the batch. haha
Given all of PMs messy stuff, it's gotta be someone, and Sheik until the nitty-gritty is yes, brain-dead. When you're getting clobbered off every touch because that's Sheik, and stale-mating the neutral becomes harder than ever because that's what you have to do against the best as Sheik, then it's no walk in the park.
Edit: On this ZSS losing to spacies thing.
I disagree entirely.
I know there are some mainstream ZSS lovers that struggled, and any analysis looks like it's terrible from conventional ways, but on the other side at least there were hints of things when peeps like Vudj and some waterfalls or something from Cali both had great success in the mainstream against spacies. I'd look more at that if peeps want ideas.
Her neutral, punish, and evasion work well enough to do fine against them. I won't elaborate right now but have also considered her solid against them, even if her tether-grab stayed and her blaster-dash didn't, I'd still think so. But I completely understand why those 3 would be considered bad against someone like Fox. Just gonna be on the other end of that stick I guess.
Edit again: I didn't notice until after posting that this 'brain-dead character' thing was a topic everywhere now.
I didn't mean Tink/Ike are brain-dead as in you don't even have to make conscious decisions to play the game or anything. I'll rephrase the statement.
Character is brain-dead = Character is leaning more on the simpler side of the mentally technical game.
Characters being easy to play has often been associated with the technical side of the game, there's a side of the game that is MENTALLY technical. You could call it decision making processes, etc, but it's more like disposition and changing-of-the-mind in a flow. That 'flow' of mind-alteration is vast and diverse.
Imma find something because this can go out of hand.
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No, actually a jet pack. I guess you haven't seen the 3.6 trailer, go watch it it's cool
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Cool, looks goofy, I'm down with that.
The type of process in the game that the brain-dead comment was referring to.
Think of tricks.
If you're talking about 'brain-dead' characters or the thinking game or anything like that, make sure you understand it this way.
The type of process in the game that the brain-dead comment was referring to.
Think of tricks.
The rest of the post is about other stuff, but this is the chunk about it that I've seen quoted a lot around like everywhere in PM/Melee sections.Try not to think of it in terms of tangible tools they have. Like intuitive data-bases of experience, or previous tried and tested executions of play, or even knowledge of how to deal with something.
What's more important than that 'stuff' is the developed ability to see, adjust, and apply, whatever needs to be done to deal with 'stuff' the opponent sees/adjusts/applies in return/initially.
The awareness of how to develop knowledge on-the-fly far outmatches the knowledge itself.
Both good and great players will have habits, solid habits. Habits that you can't break by out-speeding them or out-maneuvering them. This is a given.
Both good and great players will break things, complete go off-base and find the kinks in the system that allow them to have the edge on opponents.
The habit that makes a difference is where, then? If both players can play with such a foundation that you can't crack it, and have catapults and archers in their fortress with ice arrows and weird crap nobody has seen before, what makes the difference?
It's not the habits in terms of actions and game-play execution decisions that makes the difference, it's the habit of constantly evolving in those areas. Constantly re-fortifying as the match flows, constantly looking for quirky things, nuances in the opponents play as well as their own. This isn't just a well-toned style of play through experience and brain-power, this is a state of awareness, a conscious action, an awareness of the experience at hand.
Edit: You can't be in a constant state of adaptation if you're not constantly in the moment, present, and aware. Remember, mind matters most.
THAT is the defining trait between good and great. NOT the tricks or solid base in terms of game-play and available knowledge/resources, but the frame of mind where this development is the center of attention above all else.
Hope that clears it up a bit more, but yeah, you basically got it.
If you're talking about 'brain-dead' characters or the thinking game or anything like that, make sure you understand it this way.
ZSS doesn't need a kill move. She needs a move that lingers. That's honestly her #1 downfall when it comes to dealing with space animals. Get them off stage? Easy! Actually successfully edge guard them? Different story. The tools are there for certain, but ZSS demands you to be extremely precise.
Her other issue has more to do with not having many options when successfully cornered. Characters like Peach, Falco, Wolf do a very good job or forcing ZSS to a corner. Once she's cornered she doesn't have many legitimate counterattacks from shield. Her best option was her tether grab, which is gone.
Her other issue has more to do with not having many options when successfully cornered. Characters like Peach, Falco, Wolf do a very good job or forcing ZSS to a corner. Once she's cornered she doesn't have many legitimate counterattacks from shield. Her best option was her tether grab, which is gone.
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RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
What important matchups does Roy win over Marth at this time? Is it pretty much just the spacies but that's so important that Roy gets to be top tier because he can handle them better? Or is his matchup spread just superior all around?
I feel like Roy seems really good compared to Marth but I'm hoping it's just because Marth is harder to play. As time goes on I'd like to see Marth and Roy having very different playstyles yet pretty similar viability in an ideal balance world at least.
I feel like Roy seems really good compared to Marth but I'm hoping it's just because Marth is harder to play. As time goes on I'd like to see Marth and Roy having very different playstyles yet pretty similar viability in an ideal balance world at least.
Roy's easier to not fudge up, sorta. Like if Roy's overall potential were 8.5/10, Sethlon and Lunchables could probably use him at 7.5 or higher. Where as Marth might be able to be 9/10 potential, but most Marth players can only manage a 6.5 or 7.
I dunno if I consider it Marth being harder to play (since Marth has quite a few great tools that other chars would love to have, and does not suffer from ungodly struggles in MU's overall), but Roy is pretty forgiving on a practical level.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Roy does good against Marth as compared to the Marth ditto. Other than that, I don't think Roy truly does better against chars that Marth does.
pretty much this
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Psyant
Smash Apprentice
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- Psyant
Roy's a lot better against Pikachu then Marth at least. Marth is evenish for Pikachu but Roy is one of Pika's more challenging MUs imo. Roy's much stronger CC game and ability to close out stocks on stage better than Marth makes all the difference. I can live until like 150% (where I then die to up tilt) regularly against Marth, but that's just not going to happen against Roy.
Gawain the Knight
Smash Apprentice
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- May 5, 2015
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I meant the characters that can't handle him should receive the appropriate buffs
Did you not play 3.02?
Gawain the Knight
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 133
1 I did not, 2() from what I've seen that version was absurd.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
Let me put it this way to you. Toon Link already has a positive MU spread against over half the cast of PM, goes even with a few, has an unfavorable but doable MU against about 5 or so and gets absolutely decimated by another 5 (Fox, Falco, Wolf, R.O.B., and Falcon). If you buff Tink to where he can handle Fox it is going to be 3.02 all over again and he will probably end up having no unfavorable MUs (maybe like 1 or 2 at the most). Which, frankly, I don't want for my character. I think he actually needs some toning down to him. I also think those other 5 characters I mentioned also need some toning down as well though. :L