Tier List Speculation

[BlackMamba]

cus shes high tier? lmao

Wait are you serious with this comment lol

 

[DMG]

I dunno if TL vs Falcon is that bad. Gut feeling says it's doable, like inbetween 6:4 and 65:35? Lunchables swears on it being a rough MU last I remember him saying. Aero had a close set with me at Aftershock, not sure what to think.

If you get good enough with Zelda, you can always accomplish one of 2 objectives:

1. Win

2. Steal any fun or enjoyment from the opponent, expect for the immense satisfaction of ending the match/killing her stocks. Not many "bad" characters can say this, can they?!?!?

Edit 420: Before the Zelda brigade comes in and says something, I just have to make it very clear: I really don't care. I am no longer co-founder of Zelda hate club. She's such a small blip on the radar of characters people really 100% need to watch out for in tourneys, so character flaws or prickly design aspects basically don't matter as much. She doesn't seem fun to interact with (hello Ivysaur, Olimar, old Mario, Melee Kirby vs Jiggs, etc) but props to any Zelda mains that want to do good with her or enjoy her. You weirdos


Also PMDT plz buff all chars I use, and smite those other loser mains with big, whopping nerfs. Pika and CF buffs, nerf Olimar. This is real democracy

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Let me put it this way to you. Toon Link already has a positive MU spread against over half the cast of PM, goes even with a few, has an unfavorable but doable MU against about 5 or so and gets absolutely decimated by another 5 (Fox, Falco, Wolf, R.O.B., and Falcon). If you buff Tink to where he can handle Fox it is going to be 3.02 all over again and he will probably end up having no unfavorable MUs (maybe like 1 or 2 at the most). Which, frankly, I don't want for my character. I think he actually needs some toning down to him. I also think those other 5 characters I mentioned also need some toning down as well though. :L

Agreed. It's not like we have to change fox and the other top tiers in a way that makes 14 years of practice meaningless. Fox players want a frame 1 jump cancel shine, top tier speed and priority, op up smash frame data, the ability to safely force anyone to approach and a better nuetral than the whole roster with great followups? Give them less damage and/or KB on most of that stuff.

I highly doubt he wouldn't even still be top tier. Look at Smash 4 Diddy. Even though the damage and KB on his everything was completely butchered he still as all the frame data and neutral tools he always did, his results are still very solid at the top level and I really don't respect any tier list that doesn't have him at least top 5. As a Diddy player I don't even feel I'm forced to change how I play too much since the patch, I just need to win more exchanges than before. But it's fine because I obviously have the tools to do that.

 

[steelguttey]

Wait are you serious with this comment lol

i live in new york.

zhime and face are here.

yes, shes high tier

 

[Boiko]

i live in new york.

zhime and face are here.

yes, shes high tier

I'm actually starting to disagree and feel like she's more mid tier.

 

[DMG]

Spoiler Alert: when top char main lives in ur region, you place them higher than other regions

Usher Confession: I'm cheating on CF with Pirate Hat Pikachu

Relevance to Tier List Speculation: U guys are too meta, I'm just here to DD grab and take some tourney wins before losing

 

[BlackMamba]

i live in new york.

zhime and face are here.

yes, shes high tier

Zhime is the only Zelda main to do stuff on a national scale with the character, you can't use one exceptional player to justify her being high tier. She has no good approach options, a good amount of losing matchups, poor overall movement even with teleport cancels, has poor range outside of a few attacks, and loses to both projectile and dash dance camping. She is midtier. She punishes poor aggression extremely well, and that's her main highlight. You cannot begin to compare her overall to Fox, Wolf, Sheik, Roy, Falco, ROB, or the other high tier characters. Zhime is just a monster.

 

[PlateProp]

Zhime is the only Zelda main to do stuff on a national scale with the character, you can't use one exceptional player to justify her being high tier. She has no good approach options, a good amount of losing matchups, poor overall movement even with teleport cancels, has poor range outside of a few attacks, and loses to both projectile and dash dance camping. She is midtier. She punishes poor aggression extremely well, and that's her main highlight. You cannot begin to compare her overall to Fox, Wolf, Sheik, Roy, Falco, ROB, or the other high tier characters. Zhime is just a monster.

there is something called not approaching
which zelda is really ****ing good at
have you tried that

 

[Downdraft]

so we keep fox and nerf the rest of the cast around him, and that's better? wat?

For the time being, that seems like the policy. Mewtwo, Samus, Pit, and Lucas are characters that weren't great in the original series and received significant nerfs to make room for the Melee elite. The 3.5 patch also increased the advantages that the Melee elite held over multiple characters that weren't viable at a high level.

edit:

there is something called not approaching
which zelda is really ****ing good at
have you tried that

Sounds like you have a problem. She's not good at camping and actually struggles against patience.
3.5 Din's is not a fearsome projectile, and other than that, what else does she have to encourage approaches?

 

[BlackMamba]

there is something called not approaching
which zelda is really ****ing good at
have you tried that

LMFAO if you're getting camped out by her one projectile that is clankable, has 24 frames of startup, and has no hitbox until she finishes casting it, you're doing something very wrong. The only characters Din's should truly be a nuisance for in neutral are charracters who are large and/or have poor movement options, and even some of them have decent answers.

 

[PlateProp]

edit:

Sounds like you have a problem. She's not good at camping and actually struggles against patience.
3.5 Din's is not a fearsome projectile, and other than that, what else does she have to encourage approaches?

You arent supposed to use Dins as a projectile, you're supposed to use it for stage control. Your opponent has to either stop to deal with it or move around it. But I guess Zelda mains just wanna talk bout how she's trash when she's actually a really good character that forces the opponent to play her defensive game.

LMFAO if you're getting camped out by her one projectile that is clankable, has 24 frames of startup, and has no hitbox until she finishes casting it, you're doing something very wrong. The only characters Din's should truly be a nuisance for in neutral are charracters who are large and/or have poor movement options, and even some of them have decent answers.

See above

Also not approaching does not necessarily equate to camping in every instance

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So is anyone else depressed that Xenoblade didn't come out in time for Brawl?

Shulk's Monado Arts seem like a really amazing, deep mechanic and it's wasted on the Smash4 engine :/ Robin, Shulk and Mac would make awesome PM characters with their particular gimmicks.

 

[BlackMamba]

You arent supposed to use Dins as a projectile, you're supposed to use it for stage control. Your opponent has to either stop to deal with it or move around it. But I guess Zelda mains just wanna talk bout how she's trash when she's actually a really good character that forces the opponent to play her defensive game.



See above

Also not approaching does not necessarily equate to camping in every instance

The thing is, very few characters have to play her 'defensive game,' as she loses to camping of any kind. Not approaching isn't much of an option when someone just has to dash dance right outside your range or spam projectiles (please don't try and suggest that neutral b is a good answer to either problem, cuz it's not). Unlike you and lots of other squirtles, who try to argue that your main is complete trash, I didn't say Zelda was bad- she just isn't that good, either. So please, stop the hypocrisy.

 

[steelguttey]

DrinkingFood is the only ROB main to do stuff on a national scale with the character, you can't use one exceptional player to justify him being high tier. He has no good approach options, a good amount of losing matchups, poor overall movement even with boosts, has poor range outside of a few attacks, and loses to both projectile and dash dance camping.

if you look at all the flaws of a characters and blow them up to proportions like this its gonna look bad, especially if you play the character.

before anyone says it, no, i dont believe these things about rob, obviously. but jesus ****ing christ zelda mains dont understand how good their character is.

if you have poor range outside of a few attacks with good range, that doesnt mean you still dont have good range. range is the length that you could be reaching at that moment, not the amount of range you have with other options.

poor movement options is some ****. you have poor short range movement options, whoop de do. not like youre ever gonna need them, youre zelda. reset neutral with the 5000 ways you have of doing it. you have wayy to many gtfo options to be complaining about burst movement. you have a teleport that has alot of lag but is still a ****ing teleport which makes up for it by a landslide that is also shortenable which makes it even less commital.

it doesnt matter that you can clank with dins, because dins is still a projectile that doesnt move. the slower the projectile=the better it is in neutral in most situations, and dins doesnt move. you have to hit snake's mine with something to make it go away, so is that bad? no, its still one of the best stage control options in the game. with her side b, youre forcing the opponent into bad situations that leave zelda completely safe for combos that usually dont work in other situations and the opponent has to watch out for combo spacing because of that.

you know how many high tier characters lose to projectile camping? lots. the only that really dont are melee characters and that doesnt mean much because muhlee privilege or whatever. but zelda doesnt have 7-3 matchups or enough bad matchups to be considered low tier, because no character that is bad enough to pull her into mid tier or whatever can projectile camp. she beats or goes even with nearly everyone below top 15.

also, yes being in the same region as the best character main means i can rate them higher, because i have an actual good zelda in my ****ing region so i get to see how good she is when fleshed out. dassa how tier lists work mang

 

[BlackMamba]

if you look at all the flaws of a characters and blow them up to proportions like this its gonna look bad, especially if you play the character.

before anyone says it, no, i dont believe these things about rob, obviously. but jesus ****ing christ zelda mains dont understand how good their character is.

if you have poor range outside of a few attacks with good range, that doesnt mean you still dont have good range. range is the length that you could be reaching at that moment, not the amount of range you have with other options.

poor movement options is some ****. you have poor short range movement options, whoop de do. not like youre ever gonna need them, youre zelda. reset neutral with the 5000 ways you have of doing it. you have wayy to many gtfo options to be complaining about burst movement. you have a teleport that has alot of lag but is still a ****ing teleport which makes up for it by a landslide that is also shortenable which makes it even less commital.

it doesnt matter that you can clank with dins, because dins is still a projectile that doesnt move. the slower the projectile=the better it is in neutral in most situations, and dins doesnt move. you have to hit snake's mine with something to make it go away, so is that bad? no, its still one of the best stage control options in the game. with her side b, youre forcing the opponent into bad situations that leave zelda completely safe for combos that usually dont work in other situations and the opponent has to watch out for combo spacing because of that.

you know how many high tier characters lose to projectile camping? lots. the only that really dont are melee characters and that doesnt mean much because muhlee privilege or whatever. but zelda doesnt have 7-3 matchups or enough bad matchups to be considered low tier, because no character that is bad enough to pull her into mid tier or whatever can projectile camp. she beats or goes even with nearly everyone below top 15.

also, yes being in the same region as the best character main means i can rate them higher, because i have an actual good zelda in my ****ing region so i get to see how good she is when fleshed out. dassa how tier lists work mang

Lolol first off what even is that 'quote' from me, aside from largely inaccurate and concerning an entirely different character than the one we were discussing. Not really sure what point you were trying to make there. Mine was that you can't solely use a couple of people's performances with a character to determine their tier. Your range point is garbage; by the logic you use in that point, squirtle has excellent range because UpSmash and Up B exist. Again I never argued that she's low tier. I have always said mid, because high tier just isn't a think. Don't you think there is a reason she has been on the middle of every serious tier list since 3.02? You think people made those lists without having seen Zhime play? Cuz if so, you're just wrong. Her up movement is useless against anyone fast and the reappearance hitbox can be beaten out easily by other attacks or just CC, it's honestly just an occasional mixup (even with the cancel on it). As for your 'most top tiers lose to projectile camping' point: also garbage. Pretty much all of them are mobile enough to maneuver around them, while Zelda really can't. Oh, and aside from Sheik they actually have good to decent approach options... Btw trying to exclude melee top tiers from PM top tiers also makes little sense because they're largely the same characters. Another point that makes it clear that she isn't top tier is the fact that she loses to pretty much all of the real top tiers (granted some of those matchups are about even). Face it, you're fortunate that you get to see her played so well, but that doesn't change the fact that she isn't high tier. I'll give you mid, but that's it. I'm quite sure not even Zhime would try making this argument about her being high tier, and he knows her strengths and weaknesses extremely well. She has an excellent punish game and a bad to mediocre everything else.

 

[D e l t a]

Shouldn't a tier list resemble how well a character can do in tournament? If we're going off tier lists based on what you can do with a character to casuals and low-mid level players, I might as well as my friends to make a tier list. I thought this was discussion about matchups and how accurately a character should be placed on a tier list.

@ BlackMamba Really great argument. I liked the solid, supporting details you emphasized in your points, especially where you called his arguments garbage. Truly outstanding.

 

[BlackMamba]

Shouldn't a tier list resemble how well a character can do in tournament? If we're going off tier lists based on what you can do with a character to casuals and low-mid level players, I might as well as my friends to make a tier list. I thought this was discussion about matchups and how accurately a character should be placed on a tier list.

@ BlackMamba Really great argument. I liked the solid, supporting details you emphasized in your points, especially where you called his arguments garbage. Truly outstanding.

Not sure if sarcasm or not, since I actually explained why they were garbage after calling them such.

 

[steelguttey]

Lolol first off what even is that 'quote' from me, aside from largely inaccurate and concerning an entirely different character than the one we were discussing. Not really sure what point you were trying to make there. Mine was that you can't solely use a couple of people's performances with a character to determine their tier. Your range point is garbage; by the logic you use in that point, squirtle has excellent range because UpSmash and Up B exist. Again I never argued that she's low tier. I have always said mid, because high tier just isn't a think. Don't you think there is a reason she has been on the middle of every serious tier list since 3.02? You think people made those lists without having seen Zhime play? Cuz if so, you're just wrong. Her up movement is useless against anyone fast and the reappearance hitbox can be beaten out easily by other attacks or just CC, it's honestly just an occasional mixup (even with the cancel on it). As for your 'most top tiers lose to projectile camping' point: also garbage. Pretty much all of them are mobile enough to maneuver around them, while Zelda really can't. Oh, and aside from Sheik they actually have good to decent approach options... Btw trying to exclude melee top tiers from PM top tiers also makes little sense because they're largely the same characters. Another point that makes it clear that she isn't top tier is the fact that she loses to pretty much all of the real top tiers (granted some of those matchups are about even). Face it, you're fortunate that you get to see her played so well, but that doesn't change the fact that she isn't high tier. I'll give you mid, but that's it.

i used that quote (and said it was inaccurate, you dont like to read do you) to show you that you can look at only the flaws of every character in the game and call them bad. it still doesnt prove anything. you can completely use a couple of people's performances with a character to determine their tier. look at melee ice climbers, brawl ice climbers, brawl olimar, brawl marth, brawl wario, i can go on. just because a few people arep laying it and doing well with them doesnt mean that you "cant put them anywhere on a tier list", you have enough information to make one because thats the closest to optimal that character is right now. also, yea you can use that for squirtle but thats vertical so it doesnt really make sense. zelda can always maintain range with things like lightning kicks and ftilts, theyre fast and long enough range to beat out most non-disjoints. why in the **** are you using 3.0 tier lists as a way of justifying those points? ask any zelda player, she is completely different now. regardless, no, she isnt. many good players have put her high tier because she has tools to beat out most of the cast. and really, you can't justify tier placements after watching someone play. matchups are way to in depth and there is no way theres footage of zhime playing 3.5 zelda against every character in this cast at optimal level. so you have to play against zhime to get a good idea really. you cant punish teleport on reaction from mid screen, which is where her gtfo options put people. i dont care about the reappearance hitbox, nobody really mentioned it lmao. and i didnt say top tier, i said high tier. pretty big difference lmao. and actually not really. lucario, roy, wolf to an extent and shiek all have trouble against projectile camping but they have tools to beat them, like zelda does. she can clank with projectiles, fair and bair are amazing at it. im excluding them because they all have ways of beaitng projectile camping more or less, not because theyre melee characters. they just are designed that way and happen to be melee characters.

 

[D e l t a]

Not sure if sarcasm or not, since I actually explained why they were garbage after calling them such.

Half sarcasm. I'd rather not see such harsh words on an open-discussion forum. There are kinder words to tell someone their opinion sucks. All I ask is to be a little more considerate. Thanks.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Lolol first off what even is that 'quote' from me, aside from largely inaccurate and concerning an entirely different character than the one we were discussing. Not really sure what point you were trying to make there. Mine was that you can't solely use a couple of people's performances with a character to determine their tier. Your range point is garbage; by the logic you use in that point, squirtle has excellent range because UpSmash and Up B exist. Again I never argued that she's low tier. I have always said mid, because high tier just isn't a think. Don't you think there is a reason she has been on the middle of every serious tier list since 3.02? You think people made those lists without having seen Zhime play? Cuz if so, you're just wrong. Her up movement is useless against anyone fast and the reappearance hitbox can be beaten out easily by other attacks or just CC, it's honestly just an occasional mixup (even with the cancel on it). As for your 'most top tiers lose to projectile camping' point: also garbage. Pretty much all of them are mobile enough to maneuver around them, while Zelda really can't. Oh, and aside from Sheik they actually have good to decent approach options... Btw trying to exclude melee top tiers from PM top tiers also makes little sense because they're largely the same characters. Another point that makes it clear that she isn't top tier is the fact that she loses to pretty much all of the real top tiers (granted some of those matchups are about even). Face it, you're fortunate that you get to see her played so well, but that doesn't change the fact that she isn't high tier. I'll give you mid, but that's it. I'm quite sure not even Zhime would try making this argument about her being high tier, and he knows her strengths and weaknesses extremely well. She has an excellent punish game and a bad to mediocre everything else.

Ike is High Tier and he loses hard to quite a few top tiers.

 

[BlackMamba]

Half sarcasm. I'd rather not see such harsh words on an open-discussion forum. There are kinder words to tell someone their opinion sucks. All I ask is to be a little more considerate. Thanks.

I didn't see it as an issue since I made it clear that I had problems with the argument rather than the poster. I also don't really think garbage is a particularly harsh word, but I guess being more sensitive couldn't really hurt. Point taken.

 

[Narpas_sword]

1 I did not, 2() from what I've seen that version was absurd.

Exactly.

Which is why this:

I meant the characters that can't handle him should receive the appropriate buffs

Is a terrible way to go.

 

[D e l t a]

Anyway, back on discussion, what's the consensus on Mario? I've seen few posts about Mario lately and it seems that everyone is okay with the nerfs. He seems like an average, easily playable character with mostly even MUs on the cast. I am unsure of any hard wins or losses for the character.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Exactly.

Which is why this:


Is a terrible way to go.

I think going from point A to B on that one isn't very appropriate. I think you can give some charaters what they need without overbuffing them. Unless spacies happen to be said character's only terrible matchup it can't be overlooked.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Anyway, back on discussion, what's the consensus on Mario? I've seen few posts about Mario lately and it seems that everyone is okay with the nerfs. He seems like an average, easily playable character with mostly even MUs on the cast. I am unsure of any hard wins or losses for the character.

I honestly think he is an above average extremly good character top 20 at lowest, top 15 makes more sense. It seems like he has the tools to handle every charater in which case he would be above average relative to most.

 

[D e l t a]

I honestly think he is an above average extremly good character top 20 at lowest, top 15 makes more sense. It seems like he has the tools to handle every charater in which case he would be above average relative to most.

What are Mario's inherent weaknesses? Range could be an issue, but he can camp really well and set up for ledge guards. Sex kick and strong hits with both fast and average startup times. He seems like the most average character you can think of

 

[Gawain the Knight]

What are Mario's inherent weaknesses? Range could be an issue, but he can camp really well and set up for ledge guards. Sex kick and strong hits with both fast and average startup times. He seems like the most average character you can think of

Yeah but he can use projectiles to comfirm hits, his kill power is pretty good and his combo game is pretty insane and sheik-esque

 

[BlackMamba]

i used that quote (and said it was inaccurate, you dont like to read do you) to show you that you can look at only the flaws of every character in the game and call them bad. it still doesnt prove anything. you can completely use a couple of people's performances with a character to determine their tier. look at melee ice climbers, brawl ice climbers, brawl olimar, brawl marth, brawl wario, i can go on. just because a few people arep laying it and doing well with them doesnt mean that you "cant put them anywhere on a tier list", you have enough information to make one because thats the closest to optimal that character is right now. also, yea you can use that for squirtle but thats vertical so it doesnt really make sense. zelda can always maintain range with things like lightning kicks and ftilts, theyre fast and long enough range to beat out most non-disjoints. why in the **** are you using 3.0 tier lists as a way of justifying those points? ask any zelda player, she is completely different now. regardless, no, she isnt. many good players have put her high tier because she has tools to beat out most of the cast. and really, you can't justify tier placements after watching someone play. matchups are way to in depth and there is no way theres footage of zhime playing 3.5 zelda against every character in this cast at optimal level. so you have to play against zhime to get a good idea really. you cant punish teleport on reaction from mid screen, which is where her gtfo options put people. i dont care about the reappearance hitbox, nobody really mentioned it lmao. and i didnt say top tier, i said high tier. pretty big difference lmao. and actually not really. lucario, roy, wolf to an extent and shiek all have trouble against projectile camping but they have tools to beat them, like zelda does. she can clank with projectiles, fair and bair are amazing at it. im excluding them because they all have ways of beaitng projectile camping more or less, not because theyre melee characters. they just are designed that way and happen to be melee characters.

I read what you said about the ROB bit, my point was that its purpose and effectiveness were still kind of questionable. I said 'she's been placed at midtier in tier lists SINCE 3.02. ' as in, she is still there in 3.5 lists. You can't be suggesting she would have gone up in this patch? She got lots of things nerfed and only a couple buffs to try and compensate (Zhime will for sure agree with this part because even after he picked her up again in 3.5 he agreed that her changes were largely unwarranted nerfs). I don't recall saying that you argued that she is top tier? And even if I did it was an obvious mistake, I said ' not high' multiple times. Anyway, mid means not high or top so that's irrelevant. Also you are contradicting yourself... you just said you can't base tier lists off watching people play when initially you said that you being from Zhime's region is what led you to believe that Zelda is high tier.

 

[steelguttey]

god ****ing damnit how many times do i have to say this


patch notes mean nothing in a tier list

im arguing that shes high tier, not top tier. two different ghings. and i said you cant base tier lists on people watching vods of people playing but playing against them is something you can base tier lists off of. im supporting my point, if anything.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Spoiler Alert: when top char main lives in ur region, you place them higher than other regions

Yeah. My entire region is completely convinced that Bowser is top tier. Never mind that I bop pretty much everyone here with more or less the whole cast. =|

anyway uh

Was this thread always this terrible? Or is that a recent development?

Zelda encourages approaches the same way Bowser does - by standing in the middle of the stage and either looking juicy, or looking like she's about to kick you in the sternum. I haven't seen enough quality Zelda play/counterplay to have any confidence in a tier list placing for her, but it seems to me that Zelda players might be understating the strength of her toolset when used with a mind for stage position, rather than constant engagement. ofc my Zelda is worse than awful, and therefore my ramblings are worse than useless.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's just a new kind of terrible because new people started posting a slightly different set of bad opinions.

Having Nausicaa back is cool though. On a related note, what happened to 1FD?

 

[Gawain the Knight]

It's just a new kind of terrible because new people started posting a slightly different set of bad opinions.

Having Nausicaa back is cool though. On a related note, what happened to 1FD?

They're our opinions to have and telling us our opinions are bad and not guiding us to a solution is less than uselss.

 

[DMG]

It's just a new kind of terrible because new people started posting a slightly different set of bad opinions.

Having Nausicaa back is cool though. On a related note, what happened to 1FD?

Don't be fooled dude, I swear Nausicaa and 1FD were the same guy on split accounts. Except 1FD was the crazy side of Nausicaa.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I have spent far more time thank I really want to think about trying to guide the foolish and the ignorant over the years, often without any meaningful return on my investment. I'm allowed to pick my battles, especially when they're a topic that's already been done to death like why trying to balance up to Fox is a terrible idea.

If you have specific questions that fall within my purview I'm more than willing to share my knowledge, as several users here can attest. Don't begrudge me the right to leave a one-liner when it'd take anything between a mid-sized essay and a full-blown dissertation to adequately dissect the topic at hand.

 

[DrinkingFood]

over the years

Joined: Jul 9, 2014

over the past 10 months

ftfy

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I have spent far more time thank I really want to think about trying to guide the foolish and the ignorant over the years, often without any meaningful return on my investment. I'm allowed to pick my battles, especially when they're a topic that's already been done to death like why trying to balance up to Fox is a terrible idea.

If you have specific questions that fall within my purview I'm more than willing to share my knowledge, as several users here can attest. Don't begrudge me the right to leave a one-liner when it'd take anything between a mid-sized essay and a full-blown dissertation to adequately dissect the topic at hand.

Well ok.........

 

[InfinityCollision]

Joined: Jul 9, 2014


ftfy

Obviously not referring exclusively (or in any major part, really) to my time here. I'm well aware of my join date.

EDIT: I don't mean to come off as pretentious with any of this but really, this thread is going on 800 pages. If I've been here 10 months and find much of this thread to be tired retreads, how do you think the thread's more veteran regulars feel?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I have spent far more time thank I really want to think about trying to guide the foolish and the ignorant over the years, often without any meaningful return on my investment. I'm allowed to pick my battles, especially when they're a topic that's already been done to death like why trying to balance up to Fox is a terrible idea.

If you have specific questions that fall within my purview I'm more than willing to share my knowledge, as several users here can attest. Don't begrudge me the right to leave a one-liner when it'd take anything between a mid-sized essay and a full-blown dissertation to adequately dissect the topic at hand.

lol, this is amusing, but to defend him, he never explicitly made those points.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I have spent far more time thank I really want to think about trying to guide the foolish and the ignorant over the years, often without any meaningful return on my investment. I'm allowed to pick my battles, especially when they're a topic that's already been done to death like why trying to balance up to Fox is a terrible idea.

If you have specific questions that fall within my purview I'm more than willing to share my knowledge, as several users here can attest. Don't begrudge me the right to leave a one-liner when it'd take anything between a mid-sized essay and a full-blown dissertation to adequately dissect the topic at hand.

But to be fair I never disallowed you those rights, my response was just a result of awe. It seemed like you were berating us without giving us advice or guidance but perhaps I misread.

 

[InfinityCollision]

But to be fair I never disallowed you those rights, my response was just a result of awe. It seemed like you were berating us without giving us advice or guidance but perhaps I misread.

Not maliciously or discriminately, at any rate. I've said my share of terrible things.

If you want guidance, here it is: make fewer statements and ask more questions. Follow those questions with more questions. When you find a question you can't answer, look harder. Search through threads, peruse frame data, watch videos, test in debug mode with a controller in each hand. Find answers, then turn them into more questions. If you feel confident enough to make a statement, go back and double check it from every angle first. A critical mind promotes growth, both as a player and a theorycrafter.

Food for thought: even in 3.02, nearly every tier list put Fox in top 5 or even top 3. If he can come out near the top even in what you referred to as an "absurd" meta, what kind of tools do you think it'd take for every character to (roughly) match him? How would these tools impact other matchups?