Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

Also on a similar but unrelated note, In terms of the Brawl characters/Melee characters with overhauls, who do you think is the best designed? I think Ike, Lucas, and maybe ROB are examples of well designed characters. It's been echoed to death but Bowser is an example of one that is NOT very well designed in my eyes. What do you guys think?

Edit for spelling:

For what terribly little it's worth, I'm starting to understand the issues with Bowser a lot better. @cmart deserves a lot more credit than she gets, I think. Bowser may not look terribly well designed in a vacuum, but it's mostly out of necessity - he's incredibly well-balanced and well-designed for his size, and for his aesthetic as considered thus far.

There's other ways of looking at him, and though IMO the aesthetic thus far is outdated, it's actually hella hard to beat the job cmart's done thus far on balancing the character. I'm having an incredibly hard time with my own experiments, despite my prior confidence.

edit: that'll probably come across as needless dickriding, but I'm drunk and in need of some positivity, so sue me. >=[

 

[DMG]

@cmart deserves a lot more credit than she gets, I think.

@cmart deserves a lot more credit than she gets, I think.

Wat? Pretty sure I've addressed Cmart with bro and dude before, I feel bad now if actually grill. Odds y challenge my reality

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm not really sure it's my place, but she seems OK with it, so here we go. cmart identifies as a female/lady/something, but hates making people feel awkward/making 'a big deal' out of it. I don't think I'm "outing" her, as when asked about pronouns [skype name is Susan], she responded 'anything is fine' (later stated 'she') and has generally seemed appreciative or at least neutral towards the usage of 'she' in the Bowser Skype. cmart has been an incredibly cool person to me, so if possible I'd like to help her be recognized by some of the community as her preferred gender.

Please don't make a big deal out of it.

@cmart I'm very sorry if you don't want anyone to point stuff like this out. I'll happily delete the post if you want, but I think you deserve to be known/referred to as the person you feel like.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Did somebody just say ROB is well designed?
OH BOY here comes the lunchables brigade

 

[Frost | Odds]

You misspelled @Lunchables .

@Lunchables @Lunchables @Lunchables , I summon thee!

For real, even ROB is pretty well designed except in terms of punishability. If more of the cast had real, actual followups, he'd be a more or less reasonable character IMO.

Still better than Fox in 3.5, though.

 

[Eisen]

You misspelled @Lunchables .

@Lunchables @Lunchables @Lunchables , I summon thee!

For real, even ROB is pretty well designed except in terms of punishability. If more of the cast had real, actual followups, he'd be a more or less reasonable character IMO.

Still better than Fox in 3.5, though.

Wait, do you mean better as in "better designed" or "better" as in more viable?

 

[Deleted member]

The thing about ROB is that if you put all of his moves in a vacuum, they makes sense. Most of his moves aren't incredibly over whelming on their own

The problem is that when all of those puzzle pieces are put together, you get this insane monster with amazing everything. He's basically the result of making every move on the character above average, which means its kind of hard to address things about him. It's not like with other characters, where they have one insanely commanding neutral option or ******** punish tool.

 

[DMG]

post

Okie. That all sounds fine, just honest case of not knowing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The thing about ROB is that if you put all of his moves in a vacuum, they makes sense. Most of his moves aren't incredibly over whelming on their own

The problem is that when all of those puzzle pieces are put together, you get this insane monster with amazing everything. He's basically the result of making every move on the character above average, which means its kind of hard to address things about him. It's not like with other characters, where they have one insanely commanding neutral option or ******** punish tool.

Above average at what? And what are your standards for average? Are you implying that most characters have moves that are below average in every way, and not actually good at anthing? You say most of his moves are above average, like what are you talking about? I'd like clarification before I can address the majority of your post as incorrect/inaccurate/misleading

 

[DMG]

ROB would be banned from Fast Food Restaurants, cause you can't put him into a combo

I'm watching Law and Order at 3AM, hella tired and idk what I'm even saying at this point. Buff ROB's Dthrow or something, he needs to be stronger. That one guy was rebuilt. "We have the tools, we have the technology!" Ok now give it to ROB

 

[steelguttey]

just take out robs batteries

 

[eideeiit]

He's salt powered. An endless supply of energy.



How're Link's MUs against the good characters?

 

[DMG]

He's salt powered. An endless supply of energy.



How're Link's MUs against the good characters?

Better than people give him credit for, but still unimpressive. Like 95% of PM chars lol

Edit: 75%

 

[Player -0]

Like. He loses to all spacies. Loses to Sheik hard, Marth is roughly even. CF beats Link like 6-4. Idk about vs. ROB, maybe a bit in ROB's favor. Loses to Roy I think.

Link has hard life.

He probably still goes even-ish with Samus though lol.

 

[MLGF]

He has a decent spread tbh, but losing to Melee characters does hurt quite a bit.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Top:
High:
can you guys give me your thoughts for this part at least?

 

[eideeiit]

Sheilda being lower than just Sheik makes zero sense. Zelda better than DDD, Mario, Lucas, Mewtwo and maybe Peach is weird to me.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Sheilda being lower than just Sheik makes zero sense. Zelda better than DDD, Mario, Lucas, Mewtwo and maybe Peach is weird to me.

I'm gonna be honest I forgot about Mewtwo.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I think Zelda is a bit better than peach though, Mario was an oversight on my part he does justify a higher placing. I don't know if we can say for sure sheilda is really better than sheik or zelda alone. I believe it is more of a counterpick tool.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I had little sleep and class in half-an hour so please forgive my oversights.

 

[Binary Clone]

Top:
High:
can you guys give me your thoughts for this part at least?

I'm gonna be honest I forgot about Mewtwo.

I think Zelda is a bit better than peach though, Mario was an oversight on my part he does justify a higher placing. I don't know if we can say for sure sheilda is really better than sheik or zelda alone. I believe it is more of a counterpick tool.

I had little sleep and class in half-an hour so please forgive my oversights.

For the love of God, man, there is an edit button, USE it.

Can we have some kind of mandatory crash course on the existence of an edit button and the practice of not n-tuple posting every time you feel the need to say something?



Anyway, I don't see how it makes sense to have Sheilda be ranked and have her underneath either Zelda or Sheik. She has the exact same attributes and then some, how could she be worse?

 

[Gawain the Knight]

For the love of God, man, there is an edit button, USE it.

Can we have some kind of mandatory crash course on the existence of an edit button and the practice of not n-tuple posting every time you feel the need to say something?

Okay My mistake, I am sorry.

 

[mimgrim]

If a list is going to have Sheilda in it (whether or not Sheilda deserves her own spot is a different debate) she should be put, at least, a straight spot above Sheik (or whichever one is the better character between the two).

 

[InfinityCollision]

Sheilda by definition can be at worst equal to whichever of the two characters is better than the other. If Zelda is preferable to Sheik in any matchup, whether by outright matchup advantage or simply ease of execution, then Sheilda is theoretically superior by some margin even if it's not always practical/worthwhile to train both characters and make use of that advantage.

I'm gonna be honest I forgot about Mewtwo.

Everybody forgets about Mewtwo

 

[Foo]

Sheilda by definition can be at worst equal to whichever of the two characters is better than the other. If Zelda is preferable to Sheik in any matchup, whether by outright matchup advantage or simply ease of execution, then Sheilda is theoretically superior by some margin even if it's not always practical/worthwhile to train both characters and make use of that advantage.


Everybody forgets about Mewtwo

Well, it depends if you subscribe to the philosophy that players who stick to one character are better at that one character than people who duo main are at either character. Tier lists are supposed to be about characters played at peak level, but if humans simply can't play two characters as well as one, then it'd hold up for the list.

Not suggesting that is how it works or wanting to start that argument up again, just pointing out that it's not a fallacy to put shielda below shiek.

 

[InfinityCollision]

theoretically

even if it's not always practical/worthwhile

^Already got that argument covered.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Top:
High:
can you guys give me your thoughts for this part at least?

The lack of mario, mewtwo, and g&w is a bit weird for this list. Also with all the luigi hate on recent posts, it's funny to see Wario and Zelda ahead of him.

Just glad to see people who actually play the game don't just put diddy auto top tier from 3.0 abuse, when he is literally the worst character at killing vertically in the game.

 

[FreeGamer]

Are y'all sure that Zelda is high tier, and it isn't a bunch of MU inexperience and/or skill gaps between players making her look good?

 

[Gawain the Knight]

My tier section may be a bit flawed, or weird by other's standards but most tierlists are. Also considering how close the majority of characters in the game are in terms of viability, making a decisive tier list is often quite difficult.

 

[DMG]

Are y'all sure that Zelda is high tier, and it isn't a bunch of MU inexperience and/or skill gaps between players making her look good?

It's likely to swing the same way for Zelda: if her optimal strategy for a MU is to camp or play defensive overall, and instead the player runs around trying to land kicks, she might look easier to beat than she actually is.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Are y'all sure that Zelda is high tier, and it isn't a bunch of MU inexperience and/or skill gaps between players making her look good?

When I'm playing her, it feels like she should suck, but everyone has a hell of a time getting in on me. Because her playstyle is so bizarre, it's extremely difficult for me to evaluate her with the criteria I'd ordinarily use to try to figure out how strong a character is.

Anybody happen to know what her matchups are like against ROB, ICs, Ganon, GnW? Just out of, uh, idle curiosity

 

[eideeiit]

Anybody happen to know what her matchups are like against ROB, ICs, Ganon, GnW? Just out of, uh, idle curiosity

I've been under the impression that ICs is the one MU where it's advisable for a Sheik to switch to Zelda in Melee, so it's probably very good for her in PM. Doesn't Sheik on the other hand EZ-mode Ganon kinda hard?

 

[Kaeldiar]

When I'm playing her, it feels like she should suck, but everyone has a hell of a time getting in on me. Because her playstyle is so bizarre, it's extremely difficult for me to evaluate her with the criteria I'd ordinarily use to try to figure out how strong a character is.

Anybody happen to know what her matchups are like against ROB, ICs, Ganon, GnW? Just out of, uh, idle curiosity

Against ROB: no idea, @Oracle might know
Against ICs: no idea, @ Hylian @the_irish_dude might know
Against Ganon: She wins this one 60-40. He kills her stupidly early, but this is one of the few MUs where she isn't completely crippled by being at a speed disadvantage. Not to mention, one bad DI and Ganon takes HUGE %
Against GnW: Also a win for her, but heavily stage dependent. She needs her space, but she wins if she gets it. If she doesn't, then GnW does

 

[Hylian]

IC's vs zelda is evenish I think. Any time she touches your shield you can WD -> jab/dsmash OoS and it's pretty free. It's easy to avoid her gimmicks with them as well and she dies at like 70% to grab mid-stage.

 

[941]

Playing ICs against Zelda makes me feel like I'm playing Brawl. Both characters have to play really patient and defensive in neutral, because they don't have good options to approach each other, and whoever messes up first can be punished pretty hard. I would say the MU favors Zelda, because She's pretty good at separating the ICs and KOing Nana, and Sopo Vs. Zelda is pretty free for Zelda.

How exactly does Zelda die to mid-stage grab at early percents? The only way I can see that working is with U-throw > Up-B, but it's not very reliable against players that know to watch for it.

 

[Hylian]

Playing ICs against Zelda makes me feel like I'm playing Brawl. Both characters have to play really patient and defensive in neutral, because they don't have good options to approach each other, and whoever messes up first can be punished pretty hard. I would say the MU favors Zelda, because She's pretty good at separating the ICs and KOing Nana, and Sopo Vs. Zelda is pretty free for Zelda.

How exactly does Zelda die to mid-stage grab at early percents? The only way I can see that working is with U-throw > Up-B, but it's not very reliable against players that know to watch for it.

You just charge upsmash during a throw, she is super floaty and light and dies off the top really early.

 

[jtm94]

Sheilda takes up the same spot as the better character, aka Sheik. Zelda being in high tier is ludicrous. Riddle me how she beats all of the characters below her or competes with those around her. The answer is DownB.

My friend tried selling me that Zelda hard beat ICs. After we played, the MU felt terrible as Zelda and GnW felt like he beat ICs for free. There's a lot of other characters I would rather be against them than Zelda.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Since expressing my opinion has become lethal, what do you guys think of wolf?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Are y'all sure that Zelda is high tier, and it isn't a bunch of MU inexperience and/or skill gaps between players making her look good?

Also this ^

Zelda has always been a noob killer. Take a look at her placement on the first Melee tier list, before people knew how to deal with her. She was SIXTH http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)#First_tier_list_.28October_8.2C_2002.29

 

[Gawain the Knight]

To be fair on my list she was #16 and I forgot a few characters so she would've been 3-4 places lower 19-20 seems like a very fair spot for her.
Edit: I honestly think that undersells her but this is PM character gaps aren't as prominent