Tier List Speculation

[ChiePet]

You just charge upsmash during a throw, she is super floaty and light and dies off the top really early.

Lol I just got this mental image of DeDeDe being able to D-Throw while Charging USmash. I missed ICs, I just wish the bug was fixed already, and not as important, I wish they had SOME kind of infinite, wobbling/CG or otherwise.. It just feels like it's one thing they always get.

 

[Hylian]

They will have an infinite in 3.6.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is it one that exists now and hasn't been able to be removed?

 

[Hylian]

It's one that's existed since their inclusion into PM and was decided to be left in.

 

[ChiePet]

It's one that's existed since their inclusion into PM and was decided to be left in.

I'm speechless.

Obviously not literally, but still; Great tactic in so many ways;
1. It gives former/new IC players a bigger or better reason to pick up the Kids
2. forgot number two, I'll somehow remember eventually
3. If you Do Not tell people What the Infinite is, but that it for a fact exists, it will give even more incentive for players to pick them up to find it, and you could even go as far as making it indirectly a contest; that person could be the next Wobbles finding Wobbling.

I'm, yet again, stoked/impatient as **** for 3.6.

 

[Hylian]

I'm speechless.

Obviously not literally, but still; Great tactic in so many ways;
1. It gives former/new IC players a bigger or better reason to pick up the Kids
2. forgot number two, I'll somehow remember eventually
3. If you Do Not tell people What the Infinite is, but that it for a fact exists, it will give even more incentive for players to pick them up to find it, and you could even go as far as making it indirectly a contest; that person could be the next Wobbles finding Wobbling.

I'm, yet again, stoked/impatient as **** for 3.6.

It's already been discovered and people know about it. It's just so situational/hard it doesn't really impact their match-ups in any meaningful way.

 

[ChiePet]

It's already been discovered and people know about it. It's just so situational/hard it doesn't really impact their match-ups in any meaningful way.

Not even going to make it a little bit more optimal/worth using?
also, that being said, what exactly is the infinite in question?

 

[Hylian]

Dthrow -> bthrow at the ledge facing away from it.

 

[ChiePet]

Dthrow -> bthrow at the ledge facing away from it.

assuming this entirely; DThrow into a backwards BThrow rinse and repeat would look crazy and just look like on IC is going insane.

 

[Hylian]

assuming this entirely; DThrow into a backwards BThrow rinse and repeat would look crazy and just look like on IC is going insane.

 

[trash?]

I only remember that infinite b/c I tried to make a signature/gif of it ages ago

it's almost endless, if you pretend there isn't a noticeable stutter when it tries to loop

 

[ChiePet]

Absolutely Priceless. How could this not be impactful to MUs at all? Understandably Difficult; How would you say it's done, if I may?

 

[Hylian]

It's really hard to grab people with your back facing the ledge, with enough room to have nana bthrow(the range was reduced from this video of nana throwing towards the ledge to match melee in 3.5), and then have enough time to walk nana forwards without them being able to mash out to be able to even grab from the bthrow. It's about impactful as ledge hand-offs already are considering you can kill most characters from 0% with just a ledge hand-off, it's just a lot harder and you don't run out of room.

 

[941]

That infinite is honestly pretty useless. It's hard to do in training mode, and almost impossible to do against a human opponent. I've heard rumors that Fumbles used it in a tournament match, but I haven't seen anything to validate that claim. I also don't see how it could be removed, even if the PMDT wanted to do so, without drastically changing ledge handoffs.

Is ledge-hogging ICs when Nana tethers to the stage still going to be a guaranteed KO on them in 3.6? That's just as bad as Olimar's recovery issues.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So why only facing away from the ledge? I'm confused why that one works or why leaving it in at all in a good thing even as situational as it is.

 

[BlackMamba]

Against ROB: no idea, @Oracle might know
Against ICs: no idea, @ Hylian @the_irish_dude might know
Against Ganon: She wins this one 60-40. He kills her stupidly early, but this is one of the few MUs where she isn't completely crippled by being at a speed disadvantage. Not to mention, one bad DI and Ganon takes HUGE %
Against GnW: Also a win for her, but heavily stage dependent. She needs her space, but she wins if she gets it. If she doesn't, then GnW does

You really think she beats G&W? I think there are only a couple stages where she has a very slight advantage over him, but he for sure wins overall.
I competely think ROB beats her, though not by a ton. He pretty much just has to avoid the space right above her and he's fine. They can shut down some of each other's options, but ROB shuts her down a bit harder. (No bias in that one cuz I dual main them and use ROB against any Zelda I play in tourney, hasn't failed so far). ICs matchup is in her favor I think, tho I believe it's quite doable for ICs. I personally hate fighting Ganon cuz missing one sweet spot on a kick can lead to a 60% death, but that matchup also favors her. Again, still quote doable for ganon IMO.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's not so much that it's a good thing (it's not, sorry @ ChiePet but it's really not) as it is that the infinite highly situational, rather difficult to execute, and not necessarily substantially more rewarding than alternatives in the same situation (especially if your execution isn't airtight). As such there's little reason to go out of the way to address it, but if it was removed by some unrelated change then it's not like they'd try to bring it back.

 

[ChiePet]

It's not so much that it's a good thing (it's not, sorry @ ChiePet but it's really not) as it is that the infinite highly situational, rather difficult to execute, and not necessarily substantially more rewarding than alternatives in the same situation (especially if your execution isn't airtight). As such there's little reason to go out of the way to address it, but if it was removed by some unrelated change then it's not like they'd try to bring it back.

Reminded me of Brawl's CG-Infinites, just without moving; it Looks good, optimal or not.
-shrug-

 

[Hylian]

So why only facing away from the ledge? I'm confused why that one works or why leaving it in at all in a good thing even as situational as it is.

Do you know how nana's throw mechanics work in PM?

This infinite was also in melee btw, just no one used it because..why would you use this infinite?

Basically nana will always throw towards the ledge when within 30 units of it. So if you are facing away from the ledge and within 30 units of the ledge she will back throw, which allows you to regrab. When you are facing the ledge she fthrows...which is how ledge hand-offs in both melee and PM work. There is only so much ledge, so it's not an infinite except on like DDD/Bowser in which they can standing regrab on ledge hand-offs(I'm pretty sure at least, haven't tested extensively). Removing the infinite would require changing how her throw mechanics work, which is not something we want to do. It's not even worth it either..people look at infinites and immediately think broken or degenerate..but that isn't true at all in a case like this. This infinite is actually bad and really just a gimmick that relies on your opponent having no knowledge of it.

 

[941]

Who honestly thinks infinites are broken? ICs had infinites in Melee and Brawl, and were still far from the best character in either game.

 

[Hylian]

Err...lol Ic's were very close to the best character in brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you know how nana's throw mechanics work in PM?

This infinite was also in melee btw, just no one used it because..why would you use this infinite?

Basically nana will always throw towards the ledge when within 30 units of it. So if you are facing away from the ledge and within 30 units of the ledge she will back throw, which allows you to regrab. When you are facing the ledge she fthrows...which is how ledge hand-offs in both melee and PM work. There is only so much ledge, so it's not an infinite except on like DDD/Bowser in which they can standing regrab on ledge hand-offs(I'm pretty sure at least, haven't tested extensively). Removing the infinite would require changing how her throw mechanics work, which is not something we want to do. It's not even worth it either..people look at infinites and immediately think broken or degenerate..but that isn't true at all in a case like this. This infinite is actually bad and really just a gimmick that relies on your opponent having no knowledge of it.

No I only know of Melee and Brawl ones, this I didn't know was in Melee either though so new info for me.

But this is new info for me, so thanks on that front.

Still I would remove it if given the time, but I understand the time issues and how much work that would take. I just think any infinite is degenerative no matter the issue being trivial or not. But I get it for a man work issue, why did this if work is best spent elsewhere.

Still the 30 units away thing for her is weird, one of those interactions that I go wow at.

 

[Vixen]

I liked watching brawl ICs infinites because the games would actually end in a relatively timely manner. o 3o

 

[jtm94]

If you think Zelda is high tier by all means defend your stance. There's nothing wrong with having a differing perspective. If anything it brings something new to the table.

I've thought about Zelda possibly doing okay against ROB for a while now. I like it some days and less others. It's nice being able to escape dthrow > whatever, but it doesn't happen until you can already die from most things out of dthrow anyways. It's just nice that he straight dies once he gets kicked around 70/90% depending on stage.

Zelda vs GnW feels lame because bucket decimates Zelda at like 15%. I play both characters, but have yet to play either against a super competent other. I usually just use Sheik against GnW to avoid the ditto and Sheik wrecks Zelda so I don't need GnW.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I liked watching brawl ICs infinites because the games would actually end in a relatively timely manner. o 3o

Not really if one person tried to camp and abuse the fact they could safely pressure without being grabbed.

I hated playing against them as a result and is why I am glad i use Peach.

 

[Vixen]

Zelda sucks.

 

[941]

Err...lol Ic's were very close to the best character in brawl.

Metaknight was still way better, and most of the reason they were as strong as they were in Brawl was because of the meta was so heavily centered around Metaknight (I guess the name is fitting). If Metaknight was banned/non-existant, ICs still wouldn't be the best.

I'm just very annoyed with people that complain about infinites, when most of the characters in PM have something equally or more annoying to play against.

 

[BlackMamba]

If you think Zelda is high tier by all means defend your stance. There's nothing wrong with having a differing perspective. If anything it brings something new to the table.

I've thought about Zelda possibly doing okay against ROB for a while now. I like it some days and less others. It's nice being able to escape dthrow > whatever, but it doesn't happen until you can already die from most things out of dthrow anyways. It's just nice that he straight dies once he gets kicked around 70/90% depending on stage.

Zelda vs GnW feels lame because bucket decimates Zelda at like 15%. I play both characters, but have yet to play either against a super competent other. I usually just use Sheik against GnW to avoid the ditto and Sheik wrecks Zelda so I don't need GnW.

You think Sheik wrecks Zelda? Hmmm why? I think sheik barely wins. It's one of the easier matchups Zelda has against top 10 characters IMO, tho certain aspects of the matchup are definitely irritating

 

[Hylian]

Metaknight was still way better, and most of the reason they were as strong as they were in Brawl was because of the meta was so heavily centered around Metaknight (I guess the name is fitting). If Metaknight was banned/non-existant, ICs still wouldn't be the best.

I'm just very annoyed with people that complain about infinites, when most of the characters in PM have something equally or more annoying to play against.

This is 100% completely false. IC's were very close to metaknight, he was not way better at all. IC's also beat almost every other character in the game and would certainly be the best if he was banned, which was shown at the many tournaments he was banned at. If anything, had the game not died IC's had the potential to become better than metaknight I believe, considering the stagelist.

 

[PlateProp]

Weren't IC's neutered pretty hard because of stagelist? I remember reading that almost all of the stages they had that were good against meta knight got banned or something which made them way less effective

 

[Hylian]

Weren't IC's neutered pretty hard because of stagelist? I remember reading that almost all of the stages they had that were good against meta knight got banned or something which made them way less effective

No, the other way around. They weren't as good at the start of the game because so many stages were legal, eventually there were so little stages IC's went from 18th on the tier list to 2nd, and were considered even with mk on most stage and beating him on maybe FD and BF.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is 100% completely false. IC's were very close to metaknight, he was not way better at all. IC's also beat almost every other character in the game and would certainly be the best if he was banned, which was shown at the many tournaments he was banned at. If anything, had the game not died IC's had the potential to become better than metaknight I believe, considering the stagelist.

Sort of, I'd agree they would be sting but they still had bad or even mus, Peach, TL, R.O.B., ZSS. (Correct me if I am wrong on those btw) but don't need the stage list neutered or a ledge grab limit to keep them legal.

Still you are right they were one of the best in Brawl.

In PM though I ask, what is it that holds them back the most? People learning them? The bad Mus that can be almost unwinnable?

If so is it fixable? Or is it fine?

 

[InfinityCollision]

considering the stagelist.

That's exactly it though, ICs benefited immensely from stagelist changes over the years. I'm not sure they would have held the top spot in a no-MK meta (as opposed to any sample post-2011 rulesets with "MK is banned" appended on without any additional considerations). Near it, but probably not #1.

 

[Vixen]

I want ZSS to have some sort of lingering hitbox so she can actually edge gguard certain characters without having to be super amazingly ****ing precise.

Pls? <3

Tired of losing to Wuff.

 

[941]

Sort of, I'd agree they would be sting but they still had bad or even mus, Peach, TL, R.O.B., ZSS. (Correct me if I am wrong on those btw) but don't need the stage list neutered or a ledge grab limit to keep them legal.

Still you are right they were one of the best in Brawl.

In PM though I ask, what is it that holds them back the most? People learning them? The bad Mus that can be almost unwinnable?

If so is it fixable? Or is it fine?

ICs are worse than they were in Melee and Brawl, in a game where almost every character is just as good or better than they were in those games. They have 3-4 MUs that are almost unwinnable, and plethora of unfavorable ones. On top of everything else, they have a few bugs that impact their gameplay quite significantly. I don't see much that can be done about ICs though, because they would either need something ridiculously strong to compete with the top tiers, or the majority of the cast would need to be nerfed for them to be considered good. I've accepted that they likely won't ever be a top character in PM, so at this point I just want them to play more like Melee ICs.

 

[PlateProp]

I want ZSS to have some sort of lingering hitbox so she can actually edge gguard certain characters without having to be super amazingly ****ing precise.

Pls? <3

Tired of losing to Wuff.

If you git gud you wont need lingering hitboxes

 

[Vixen]

If you git gud you wont need lingering hitboxes

>Git gud
>Only loses to the best wolf in the world
>ranked in multiple games.

Try again pal.

Real talk though ZSS's biggest problem with her worst match ups is a lack of lingering hitboxes. fox/falco/wolf are super hard to edgeguard when they know ZSS's options (or lack thereof.)

Also before anyone cites the M2K match, dude clearly doesn't know ZSS LOL. Dude kept recovering high and getting clipped by neutral b and dair. That **** doesn't work when the spacie knows where to recover.

 

[PlateProp]

>Git gud
>Only loses to the best wolf in the world
>ranked in multiple games.

Try again pal.

>not able to kill wolf because not good enough therefore requiring lingering hitboxes

yeah I'd say you need to git gud

 

[Vixen]

>not able to kill wolf because not good enough therefore requiring lingering hitboxes

yeah I'd say you need to git gud

Yay jumping to conclusions! Can you even logic 101?

 

[Player -0]

IC's still have footstool infinite!

Also fight, fight, fight.