Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

They are horrible in melee. One winning MU in the top 8? Most other MUs are terrible. Loses to ganon/samus as well? They are really bad lol

Semi agree.
They force you to play in a particular way. If you're not comfortable with it, you get bopped. If you are though, it's pretty free.

 

[DethM]

You don't just combine the 6th best and 2nd best characters to get one bad one.

 

[DMG]

better get back to the lab Hylain

He went to the lab, but then IC's randomly turned around and died

 

[Hylian]

You don't just combine the 6th best and 2nd best characters to get one bad one.

Except..some of their strongest traits from both melee and brawl were removed. They can no longer wobble..they can no longer infinite hand-off(well, not after bugpatch), they can no longer do simple melee chaingrabs like dthrow -> dair -> blizzard...They lost some of their strongest traits, some of the things that made them perform great in those games. They weren't just "combined", you wouldn't think that at all if you knew how melee, brawl or PM IC's played.

 

[PlateProp]

Except..some of their strongest traits from both melee and brawl were removed. They can no longer wobble..they can no longer infinite hand-off(well, not after bugpatch), they can no longer do simple melee chaingrabs like dthrow -> dair -> blizzard...They lost some of their strongest traits, some of the things that made them perform great in those games. They weren't just "combined", you wouldn't think that at all if you knew how melee, brawl or PM IC's played.

3.5b(ugfix) prolly coulda changed that yo

Edit: ****ed up and replied to the wrong one, insert one about no one playing them~

 

[941]

My biggest issue with PM ICs (aside from bugs and other nonsense) is that it seems like half the cast doesn't even care that they're playing against them and can do the same thing they do to everyone else. A lot of characters' basic spacing moves and combo options work just as well or better against them, and they don't need to respect ICs grabs nearly as much as in Melee or Brawl. Melee ICs definitely weren't the best character, but they were able to force players out of their comfort zones and make them play differently (except for maybe Peach players). Obviously you still need to play the MU specific to ICs, and not just play against them like they were some other character, but they don't really force most opponents to do anything they wouldn't do against most of the cast.

 

[Juushichi]

better get back to the lab Hylain

I think 17th/300+ is probably pretty good all things considered...

And this is when they were obviously bottom X.

 

[eideeiit]

Do ICs have anything that even remotely helps them against camping, especially on platforms, in PM?

A better stage list and the fixed hitboxes on the hammers come to mind, but neither is big and stages are region dependant and arguable anyway.

Also it ticks me off so god damn much when people shorten Ice Climbers into IC's. NO! That means Ice Climber's, as in Popo's or Nana's. It's either ICs for Ice Climbers or ICs' for Ice Climbers'. Why would you even add the apostrophe or whatever, it just makes the word harder to type!

 

[Narpas_sword]

It could be thought of as a contraction.

Ice Climbers -> Ice C(limbers)'s

 

[941]

Do ICs have anything that even remotely helps them against camping, especially on platforms, in PM?

Not much besides what they had in Melee. AC U-air is pretty good for poking through platforms on most stages, and U-air in general is good for dealing with opponents who are above them. The tradeoff is that ICs have really bad landing options and are easy for a lot of characters to juggle, so if you can force them to jump and get below them you have a big advantage. As for non-platform campers, ICs can be played pretty campy themselves with desynced Blizzard/Ice Block walls. They still get out-camped by the likes of Samus and Peach, but they can at least deal with most characters that choose to camp them.

 

[Ningildo]

if you main oli and dont play shiek your kinda stabbin yourself in the foot at this point lmao

you dont even know how to play shiek, shes ****ing easy, at least in the matchups we care about

I get bodied on bad days by our local shiek main (who also happens to be our best player) or just lose on every other day, lel. I need to get good at that matchup (or ditto, if I decide to make shiek my secondary), so please do tell how to play that mu, fellow mighty (****posting) Oli main.

And in what mu's does shiek help? I'd imagine swordies and ivy, but anything else?

 

[Deleted member]

dont play olimar vs sheik

its really bad

 

[steelguttey]

I get bodied on bad days by our local shiek main (who also happens to be our best player) or just lose on every other day, lel. I need to get good at that matchup (or ditto, if I decide to make shiek my secondary), so please do tell how to play that mu, fellow mighty (****posting) Oli main.

And in what mu's does shiek help? I'd imagine swordies and ivy, but anything else?

first of all, what umbreon said. that mu blooows

anyway shiek for fire emblem (idk about ike), better spacie mu, still not good tho, ivy, tink, and most importantly, shiek dittos are nothing but chaingrabs and require no skill

 

[ChiePet]

They are a niche character, and can be great for counterpicking but don't look too appealing to main when you have to deal with pretty much unwinnable match-ups like Peach/ToonLink/Ivysaur every tournament, and then a bunch of other not unwinnable but still really hard match-ups like Fox/Falcon/Ganon on top of that.

-cough- I'd like, if I may, to request you elaborate on how Peach bops the Climbers, sir. I used to think it was the opposite, but I assume it's similar to Yoshi's good MU in which keeping them apart and being able to CC a LOT is a huge plus. Again though, I ask because I want to be better informed.

 

[MLGF]

first of all, what umbreon said. that mu blooows

anyway shiek for fire emblem (idk about ike), better spacie mu, still not good tho, ivy, tink, and most importantly, shiek dittos are nothing but chaingrabs and require no skill

Ike plays the matchup like all the other FE characters tbh and he loses to the same **** they do

 

[steelguttey]

-cough- I'd like, if I may, to request you elaborate on how Peach bops the Climbers, sir. I used to think it was the opposite, but I assume it's similar to Yoshi's good MU in which keeping them apart and being able to CC a LOT is a huge plus. Again though, I ask because I want to be better informed.

ok im gonna give you directions

1. pick peach against ice climbers

2. start the match

3. look down

4. locate cstick

5. close your eyes

6. mash down as hard as you can on the c stick

7. if done correctly, when you open your eyes, you will have won.

 

[Player -0]

D-Throw -> Footstool is still the hypest.

It's inescapable I'm pretty sure too.

 

[DrinkingFood]

lunchables has his own at this point. i merely want rob placed next to ike on this chart: http://imgur.com/zoNZgW0. rob is basically a heavy floaty that doesnt lose to projectiles or juggling atm. i think reducing the floaty part is all he needs. you could make a case for normalizing gyro like the rest of the thrown projectiles, but tbh i dont think that was necessary for links bombs either so i have no opinion on it.



you have to crouch and hit them with a fast move before the last hit knocks you over but yeah its super annoying. still not sure why everyone underrates the ICs so bad because they're not bad at all.

As far as projectiles go, none of the heavy floaties really seem to lose to them. Samus has crawl to remain mobile moving under them, a zair to clank them at a distance, a good powershield, and her own godlike projectiles to discourage long ranged play in the first place; MewTwo has an amazing powershield, a reflect that can beat projectile approaches like SHL from falco, can cover cancel to clank projectiles with low lag, and can also just teleport in through projectiles depending on the scenario; Yoshi might be kinda weak to projectiles, that wouldn't surprise me, but he's still got tools in the form of armor and Nair that may be effective against certain projectiles. Just off the top of my head, those were; why does a heavy-floaty need to be weak to projectiles?

I could get behind a faster falling ROB if his aerials/jumps/boosts are worked on somewhat to give him similar handling when moving about freely (as opposed to when on the defensive) so he can still do things like gyro jumps (full hop shoot gyro catch gyro), offstage fair/uair carries, and SH autocancel aerials like Nair/uair/bair.

 

[ChiePet]

ok im gonna give you directions

1. pick peach against ice climbers

2. start the match

3. look down

4. locate cstick

5. close your eyes

6. mash down as hard as you can on the c stick

7. if done correctly, when you open your eyes, you will have won.

Pshhm what am i, 14years old? This is by far the easiest way to piss people off though. I use DSmash when needed like other notable GOOD Peach players, but I hate the idea of DSmash in reaction to everything because [all jokes aside] there are sometimes just better options.

Also Who looks down while they play?? Closing their eyes??
I believe you're describing an ADHD Blind kid.
He'd still win.

 

[Deleted member]

As far as projectiles go, none of the heavy floaties really seem to lose to them. Samus has crawl to remain mobile moving under them, a zair to clank them at a distance, a good powershield, and he own godlike projectiles to discourage long ranged play in the first place; MewTwo had an amazing powershield, a reflect that can beat projectile approaches like SHL from falco, can cover cancel to clank projectiles with low lag, and can also just teleport in through projectiles depending on the scenario; Yoshi might be kinda weak to projectiles, that wouldn't surprise me, but he's still got tools in the form of armor and Nair that may be effective against certain projectiles. Just off the top of my head, those, why does a heavy-floaty need to be weak to projectiles?

they don't but you're missing the point. its okay to have a character becomes more rounded so long as you have some axis of counterplay- which rob doesn't. the character is weak to nothing and above average at every metric the game offers. he's good against dashdancing, crouching, has his own excellent crouch game, great punishments, great edge guards, avoid opposing punishments and edge guards, has good weight, good throws, good normals, good specials, good physics, and the list goes on and on. his only questionable point is that his hurtbox is a square, which is solved by playing clean and respecting your opponents' options like every other character has to do. he has no MUs are are unanimously considered disadvantageous by both skilled rob players and the opponents of their respective characters.

so how do you go about fighting this character? you can't reasonably expect to beat rob with projectiles, dashdancing, combos, gimps, crouch abuse, juggles, keeping/holding position, edge guarding... what else is there? for every axis of attack you have on rob, which is usually 1 or 0, rob has 2-3 back and is likely to be advantaged on any method he chooses to use (unless it's a special case like fox having better kill power than you). you want to beat link? you play someone fast. you want to beat kirby? you play someone with good kill power. you want to beat lucas? you use someone with good juggles. what beats rob? no one knows- at least none of the players of the other 40 out of 41 characters do. if rob "lost" any MUs by now it would be at least somewhat apparent to the players of other characters. maybe theres a handful of characters that can do okay vs the character, but theres an awful lot that cant do anything.

to be clear, i have no problem with dynamic characters or being able to destroy the opponent within reason, i just dont think he should have physics that make him naturally immune to everything else at the same time. looking at you, 3.02 mario.

 

[DrinkingFood]

they don't but you're missing the point. its okay to have a character becomes more rounded so long as you have some axis of counterplay- which rob doesn't. the character is weak to nothing and above average at every metric the game offers. he's good against dashdancing, crouching, has his own excellent crouch game, great punishments, great edge guards, avoid opposing punishments and edge guards, has good weight, good throws, good normals, good specials, good physics, and the list goes on and on. his only questionable point is that his hurtbox is a square, which is solved by playing clean and respecting your opponents' options like every other character has to do. he has no MUs are are unanimously considered disadvantageous by both skilled rob players and the opponents of their respective characters.

so how do you go about fighting this character? you can't reasonably expect to beat rob with projectiles, dashdancing, combos, gimps, crouch abuse, juggles, keeping/holding position, edge guarding... what else is there? for every axis of attack you have on rob, which is usually 1 or 0, rob has 2-3 back and is likely to be advantaged on any method he chooses to use (unless it's a special case like fox having better kill power than you). you want to beat link? you play someone fast. you want to beat kirby? you play someone with good kill power. you want to beat lucas? you use someone with good juggles. what beats rob? no one knows- at least none of the players of the other 40 out of 41 characters do. if rob "lost" any MUs by now it would be at least somewhat apparent to the players of other characters. maybe theres a handful of characters that can do okay vs the character, but theres an awful lot that cant do anything.

to be clear, i have no problem with dynamic characters or being able to destroy the opponent within reason, i just dont think he should have physics that make him naturally immune to everything else at the same time. looking at you, 3.02 mario.

Except I have told you the answer to a lot of those things but every time I do you seem to ignore it or forget or something. I can say it all again I guess when I'm not on mobile

For what it's worth, ROB's juggle escaping potential shouldn't bother people too much unless it's implied or discovered that he doesn't have enough flaws in other areas. How to quantify ROB onstage is weird, but doesn't seem to show that people cannot play Smash with him. I'm way less concerned about that, compared to figuring out exactly how characters are supposed to reliably recover/DI/escape from ROB.

With Laser, Gyro, and boosts, the underlying theme seems to be that it's not likely for the defending player's actions to matter that much if ROB executes well, after you get noticeably hit or thrown. That bothers me a lot more than whatever "can't combo ROB" issue people have. If we're not gonna address that, or talk about that, and instead make him Zard/Ganon/whatever combination weight and floatiness, might as well switch to balancing another character cause we're doing it wrong at that point.

Also I didn't notice the irony of a falcon player talking about how you are supposed to escape another character's punishment options
Bruh

 

[Deleted member]

Except I have told you the answer to a lot of those things but every time I do you seem to ignore it or forget or something. I can say it all again I guess when I'm not on mobile

sure, but it always comes back to "well my character isnt the best at absolutely everything" or things that are easily played around. we're at the point where every character is forced to play optimally at top level play and you cant just do whatever you want and still put up results (2.5 sonic, 3.0 pit) and this is a good thing. but it's usually pretty obvious what rob has to do to beat most characters. sheik has issues with crouch, dashdance abuse, being edge guarded, and she's still easily top tier. it's been 6-7 months of 3.5 and no reliable method of approaching the rob MU has been forthcoming for the rest of the cast.

 

[Deleted member]

sure, but it always comes back to "well my character isnt the best at absolutely everything" or things that are easily played around. we're at the point where every character is forced to play optimally at top level play and you cant just do whatever you want and still put up results (2.5 sonic, 3.0 pit) and this is a good thing. but it's usually pretty obvious what rob has to do to beat most characters. sheik has issues with crouch, dashdance abuse, being edge guarded, and she's still easily top tier. it's been 6-7 months of 3.5 and no reliable method of approaching the rob MU has been forthcoming for the rest of the cast.

Yeah, the argument of "Well other characters have this" or "My characters a big square!" (Even though theres a big gap in his frame) is true, but it doesn't actually solve the issues involving the characters ******** neutral interactions and lack of being put into bad positions. You just have to slowly chip at him with single moves, he dies at 200%, while he can destroy some characters off of his own punish game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Lunchables those weren't my arguments though. What you are referring to are my responses to what both of you repeatedly claimed were "not heavy floaty qualities", so I just provided examples showing that that's not necessarily the case. I'm referring to stuff I talked about probs a few months ago, not what we've talked about lately. Stuff like long range aerial approaches that can't be punished with CC, lack of tools for dealing with airborne/platform-borne opponents (particularly ones the discourage CC), that kinda stuff that I stopped talking about because I kinda thought it was understood

 

[ChiePet]

I can say it all again I guess when I'm not on mobile

that struggle too real, bruh

 

[941]

-cough- I'd like, if I may, to request you elaborate on how Peach bops the Climbers, sir. I used to think it was the opposite, but I assume it's similar to Yoshi's good MU in which keeping them apart and being able to CC a LOT is a huge plus. Again though, I ask because I want to be better informed.

Almost all of Peach's moves are good at separating the ICs, and She's very difficult for them to approach. Her D-smash and float make her nearly impossible to grab, and she can edge guard hem very easily with aerials and turnips. If you want to see this MU play out at a high level and see for yourself why it favors Peach so heavily, watch Armada against any ICs player. I'm pretty sure he's never dropped a game against one.

 

[Deleted member]

@Lunchables those weren't my arguments though. What you are referring to are my responses to what both of you repeatedly claimed were "not heavy floaty qualities", so I just provided examples showing that that's not necessarily the case. I'm referring to stuff I talked about probs a few months ago, not what we've talked about lately. Stuff like long range aerial approaches that can't be punished with CC, lack of tools for dealing with airborne/platform-borne opponents (particularly ones the discourage CC), that kinda stuff that I stopped talking about because I kinda thought it was understood

most characters in the game don't have long aerial approaches that beat CC, and those that do are then polarized around them (because they have to be). the prior category does not have this axis, or it is their best/only axis of approach to the MU, hence where i said most characters have 1 or 0 ways to engage the MU.

usually when your opponents are jumping around on platforms about you, it means you have positional advantage, not them, and they dont really have anything threatening to accompany that position.

 

[DMG]

Also I didn't notice the irony of a falcon player talking about how you are supposed to escape another character's punishment options
Bruh

There's plenty people can do to mitigate what Falcon does. Hold down on some knees to scape the floor and be able to tech/slide off and grab the edge, SDI first hit of Nair if he tries to throw into Nair for low % combos, force Falcon to go for follow ups that don't keep his momentum and then DI away from him (you mentioned this with ROB on his own Dthrow and it's very true, but the difference is that if your DI away leads to offstage, ROB can probably manage to keep or exploit his advantaged position better than quite a few chars).

Sure, Uthrow into (insert free move) is lame, but if we really want to get into lame guaranteed things, ROB's Dthrow and toss offs into multiple laser angles probably hold more than a candle to the linear lameness of CF.

 

[ChiePet]

Almost all of Peach's moves are good at separating the ICs, and She's very difficult for them to approach. Her D-smash and float make her nearly impossible to grab, and she can edge guard hem very easily with aerials and turnips. If you want to see this MU play out at a high level and see for yourself why it favors Peach so heavily, watch Armada against any ICs player. I'm pretty sure he's never dropped a game against one.

True for at least 75-80% of the Current IC MU, but remember that PM IC are a different deal here; I'd like to see them do well post 3.6 (coughReleaseItcough) and If it's still the way I know think it is, then it should be probably better than before considering wobbling and brawl-related infinites are removed. Poor ICs, they lost sooo much. I wish they could have their wobble game back, but there's no way it'd be back without causing another character to over-benefit from the changes somehow, not to mention still stay an infinite.

It's what makes them.. them, though, ya know?

 

[Life]

A while back, I had an idea for an ICs rework that had something to do with the grab timer not fully refreshing on handoffs so you could still get very hard guaranteed punishes but had to mix in a footstool/jabreset/fair/etc combo to get enough regrabs for zero-to-death.

 

[The_NZA]

no one thinks ness sucks except nza and we all ignore him

I would listen to this guy. He's the best Marth in PM, the self professed 2nd best Marth in Melee after Dr. PP, and was the best Zelda player in Melee to have ever lived. He also is definitely right because his post count exceeds total games played by practically any smash player, including himself. He's also good enough to be 2 stocked by NZA when he was in his first month of competitive play. I think he knows what he's talking about.

EDIT:

Your hubris is literally the worst thing in the smash community that I have ever encountered. Your overblown sense of self importance combined with your adhominem spewing "elite guard" attitude towards the web like a fat leech sucking on the attention of those around you to inflate your size is revolting. I've never been as rude to anyone as I've been to you, and it's largely because of just how much of "the ****" you think you are, off the basis of what exactly? Because you wrote a guide on player mentalities in spite of the fact that you fail to compete, advance the meta game, propel the advancement of the community or raise the base level of play? You're a theorycrafter, and that's important. But don't get it twisted--that's all you are.

You pretty much just play PM in your lab, brag delusionally about how great you are, construct theoretical rulesets which, when challenged, are batted away with ad hominems rather than logic, and hide behind the popularity of figures like Strongbad that are actually respected for doing things while you parrot from their shoulders so that you can look down at other players and have them address you as something larger than you really are. You want to compete now? Good, i'm happy for you. But if you took a minute to stop self fellating or groping your established buddies while calling center cam to do a closeup, you'd notice the rest of us get by on positivity and raising up other people rather than constantly tearing down. We are commentators, we host podcasts, we run tournaments, we invite new players, we offer tips (without acting obnoxiously better than them), and we bring people together.

Like I said--being a **** is a very unusual mask for me to wear. But what can I say-- you just bring it out in me. Personally, i've had clashes with essentially two people in the Smash community--you and Hylian. Both of you made the critical error of being self aggrandizing--it's essentially a bright light to my mothman suit and I can't just fly away from it. Unlike Hylian though, you were obnoxious enough to do it in person, and you never backed off.

In my opinion, the Smash community would be better without you. Seeing as I doubt that will happen since bb's first jack off sess started in '01 and never stopped, i'll just aim from here on out to avoid you for the rest of my time here.

Good riddance.

EDIT EDIT: Hylian and I are chill. This was not meant to call him out--i've done that long ago in the smashboards archives and we already buried the hatchet. As far as I'm concerned, there is no bad blood or anything between us. I simply mentioned him because it would be disingenuous to say Umbreon is the only person i've been obnoxious to on this site, and I wanted to be honest about that point.

 

[Star ☆]

If you really want a bad ICs matchup, go look at Sonic vs ICs, Somersault practically tears the poor couple apart instantaneously. It's hilariously in Sonic's favour.

 

[DMG]

I would listen to this guy. He's the best Marth in PM, the self professed 2nd best Marth in Melee after Dr. PP, and was the best Zelda player in Melee to have ever lived. He also is definitely right because his post count exceeds total games played by practically any smash player, including himself. He's also good enough to be 2 stocked by NZA when he was in his first month of competitive play. I think he knows what he's talking about.

I'll give this a like before anyone else can

Idk how far back you reached into your pocket for that one but damn

Edit: Oh my, he edited that post and made it longer, holy cow NZA poppin off like there's no tomorrow

 

[POOB]

pretty sure i beat ya to it by about 2 seconds

 

[POOB]

BTW, i find it funny that the majority of people think DK sucks and Ness is good while @ The_NZA and myself think DK is good and Ness is bad. I still think both of us are right lol

 

[Apollo Ali]

don't forget that both of you also think dedede is hella good

 

[The_NZA]

don't forget that both of you also think dedede is hella good

after seeing Ripple a lot more, I can see why people think DDD is limited. I still think there are a lot of good things about him and his success will scale well with each passing month of player improvement..

I'll give this a like before anyone else can

Idk how far back you reached into your pocket for that one but damn

Honestly, Umbreon said all of those things to me at Apex 2014, which was the first time I met the guy. It was all said to me in a McDonalds when he yelled from a few tables down to interrupt a private conversation I was having with Bryonato and Kayo. The claims of "I'm the best Zelda/2nd best marth in Melee, I beat M2K in the ditto, etc." was all his answer to my question "Who are you?"

I've been giving him **** since because it seems like he hasn't stopped doing...what he's still doing...

 

[Ripple]

I can only read people so hard...

 

[Apollo Ali]

@ The_NZA RE dedede: yeah same. i think he's a pretty solid mid-tier because he does well against a lot of melee characters. but thats also part of the reason im starting to come around on ness too.

Ness does get **** on by people who can outspace (like every character i play), so that's a big reason i think he can't be THAT good, butttttt he looks pretty good in matchups against pretty good characters.

 

[MLGF]

uh...
um...
wow....
uh...
damn...

So... How's Kirby?

...Remind me not to get on your bad side...