Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

someone should find me a secondary... the characters that hard counter DDD are going to stay hard counters in 3.6 and its getting to the point where its bothering me and I don't want to play DDD against them

 

[Narpas_sword]

who hard counter DDD?

Therefore, nerf Samus

Shhhh.

buff ice beam =p

 

[Deleted member]

someone should find me a secondary... the characters that hard counter DDD are going to stay hard counters in 3.6 and its getting to the point where its bothering me and I don't want to play DDD against them

So you're asking an entire group of people who know nothing about DDD?

Play fox will be all the answers

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy is just a gimmick. Horrible character, only gets by on people not having item control.

Spoiler

Idk man, Diddy is really hard to evaluate because he has SO MANY DAMN TOOLS but a lot of these tools are easily mitigated with proper counterplay. A lot of his options overlap uses with eachother, and a lot of the anti-diddy tech covers a lot of options. When the opponent is 100% on point things can feel horrible, because normally proper counterplay means at best you lose your banana, at worst it get used against you. But then again if you pick the right tool or they pick the wrong option you get a lot out of it. Its a generally healthy Rock-Paper-Scissors tbh. It really just depends on the tools of the opponent to deal with Diddy's ability to move around quickly and lay positional traps, anti-approach baits, amazing horizontal space control, great OoS options, etc. Fox has zero problems just running over 85% of Diddy's options, and has tools to deal with the rest, while say DDD, Bowser, or Link all struggle to deal with any of it.

On one side of the coin Diddy has **** hitboxes, bad killing potential, two smashes that don't actually work, a below average recovery (safety wise/resistance wise, distance is great) and is centralized around a projectile that can be easily used against you. On the other hand vs a lot of the cast his grounded neutral game is dominating, his horizontal space control is top notch, his movement ability, both in burst movement, DD game, and platform movement are all among the best in the cast.

If Fox wasn't in the game, I'd say Diddy would be top 10, almost top 5. His MU spread is amazing, (beating like, all fatties and all FE, then struggling vs characters who dont care as much about his horizontal game or that he struggles hitting/killing), But I feel like having a really bad Fox MU in addition to losing to varying degrees to other good characters (Peach, Samus,M2, jiggs are all bad MUs, shiek feels slightly disadvantagous, Wolf is really hard but Falco is only like 45/55, etc) puts him just outside top 10. Really though, he has a lot of great MUs vs popular characters sans fox, and probably loses to unpopular characters like squirtle/jiggs/ICs. In that sense, his tourney viability is very great because most MUs you run into in bracket will be advantages or effectively even.

Diddy is crazy good but I don't know how much of it is inflated due to people still not playing optimally against him, and that his MU spread is a bit skewed because he does really well vs most popular characters, and probably struggles with some of the lesser played ones (not just because of MU inexperience either).

Fox/Diddy perfect MU spread.

 

[Ripple]

I have a feeling that people hate fox enough that people won't suggest fox.

also, diddy, ZSS, and Ivy are 3 obvious examples of hard counters to DDD

 

[Hylian]

I think sheik beats IC's in PM... >_>. The matchup is a lot different than melee, and sheik has one tool in particular that shuts down IC's in PM that she doesn't have in melee, and that tool is needles. I'll leave to you to figure out why sheiks needles are so much better against IC's in PM than they are in melee. Without playing to abuse this though I think it's evenish or slightly in IC's favor.

 

[Life]

I'll leave to you to figure out why sheiks needles are so much better against IC's in PM than they are in melee. Without playing to abuse this though I think it's evenish or slightly in IC's favor.

No need to be cryptic. (I don't play either character.)

Although, does it have to do with the bug that's getting fixed in 3.6? Because in that case...

 

[Hylian]

Nope, nothing to do with a bug.

 

[Ripple]

what's the bug?

oh, nvm. thought people meant sheik bug

 

[Frost | Odds]

Do ice blocks get deflected by needles stuck in the ground or something? o.o

 

[Hylian]

Do ice blocks get deflected by needles stuck in the ground or something? o.o

No, but on the right track of thinking. If they got deflected by needles the match-up would be better for IC's. There is your hint.

 

[PootisKonga]

No, but on the right track of thinking. If they got deflected by needles the match-up would be better for IC's. There is your hint.

The only other option I can think of is the ice being destroyed on contact

 

[Narpas_sword]

weird, i know that melee needs have a ground hitbox, and PM they dont.
Didnt think that having the iceblocks bounce back helped the IC's though.

unless i guess a needle is stuck and then you toss ice to bounce it intentionally?

 

[Jams.]

I'll guess that it's because Sheik's needles have transcendent priority in this game, since they do in Brawl. No clue on how this matchup works so not sure how it would affect the matchup.

 

[Hylian]

The only other option I can think of is the ice being destroyed on contact

Cold.

weird, i know that melee needs have a ground hitbox, and PM they dont.
Didnt think that having the iceblocks bounce back helped the IC's though.

unless i guess a needle is stuck and then you toss ice to bounce it intentionally?

Cold.

I'll guess that it's because Sheik's needles have transcendent priority in this game, since they do in Brawl. No clue on how this matchup works so not sure how it would affect the matchup.

Hot.

 

[Narpas_sword]

so icies cant nair/other move through them?

Wait.

is 'cold' good?

 

[PootisKonga]

Cold.




Cold.



Hot.

So they pass right through

 

[Hylian]

so icies cant nair/other move through them?

Wait.

is 'cold' good?

Cold as in not close.

So they pass right through

Yes. It isn't ice blocks in particular though that is problematic for IC's(though it certainly contributes)

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you hylian, for making the past 5-10 posts a guessing game

It really helps us all

 

[Hylian]

Thank you hylian, for making the past 5-10 posts a guessing game

It really helps us all

I mean..it's more fun than the redundant posts that normally happen in here. Having people think about match-ups and discuss something pertaining to one.

Sorry you needed help with Sheik vs Ic's so badly that you couldn't wait and play along.

 

[Deleted member]

alright I can level with you, I'll make some pretty thought dependent posts

so my next question is, what makes fox so good?

 

[Apollo Ali]

@ Ripple dude just build your Marth up as a secondary. I actually think he's probs the best secondary for me too if I can figure out how to be consistent in tourney lmao

He beats or goes even with Ivy, Diddy, ZSS, as well as chars like GnW, Sonic (? less sure about that), and Wario.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hmm.

Let's Not Talk About This Anymore Than We Have To Tier

Cold as in not close.


Yes. It isn't ice blocks in particular though that is problematic for IC's(though it certainly contributes)

Side-B recovery? Blizzard?

 

[ChiePet]

I actually really like Lunchables question, but I'd really never be able to [never want to] answer it.


I still base my original Tier List for 3.5 alll the way back on Lunchables' 3rd revision as even SB said that was as accurate as it could get without his own list.




i still think peach is top 12/a-rank viable
#GETATME

EDIT:

what's the bug?

oh, nvm. thought people meant sheik bug

Sheik is a Bug.

 

[Ripple]

I'm guessing its because needles completely go through blizzard now because they don't have hurtboxes

 

[Idostuff]

so needles pass through ice block?

 

[Ningildo]

Ok.

Let's talk Oli/(insert main here). I'm legitimately curious about various mu's that I haven't played, such as Diddy, IC's, Ike and more.

I would post a list of mu's I did play, but phone johns.

 

[Deleted member]

I still base my original Tier List for 3.5 alll the way back on Lunchables' 3rd revision as even SB said that was as accurate as it could get without his own list.

If I were to make another 3.5 list (which I'm not), it'd be SBs with probably 3-5 minor character changes. And even then, my list from months ago was already a very very very similar version to SBs.

 

[MLGF]

I play swordies.
As such, Olimar appears even worse to me then other people.
Poor ******* can't even get in, much less recover.

 

[ChiePet]

If I were to make another 3.5 list (which I'm not), it'd be SBs with probably 3-5 minor character changes. And even then, my list from months ago was already a very very very similar version to SBs.

Soo.. This is Wrong then. ?

Spoiler

EDIT: Oli/Peach is in her favor; I would expand on that but I'm over-multitasking rn.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh **** thats a really solid list

nvm I'm ****ing gahlike

edit: Falco is in high tier and rob is in top tier, then its 100% correct

 

[un.dead]

Edit: **** it I'll ask somewhere else. And if you don't get the question just say so. No need to make an ass of yourself.

 

[ChiePet]

Oh **** thats a really solid list

nvm I'm ****ing gahlike

edit: Falco is in high tier and rob is in top tier, then its 100% correct

Then it's this now I understand you correctly.

Spoiler

EDIT: D*****, I forgot to move Peach behind C.Falcon. Wise man once told me "as long as Falcon exists with that UAir, she's not going to be above him"

I wish I could get someone to expand upon the apparently awful MU TLink is for Peach; Worse than Zelda they said, Better Neutral then Peach [against her] they said: All answers have been Vague so far..

Also pretty unsure about Roy, as it makes me think of the Marth MU but a bit better due to his Fall-Speed and worse due to SHFFL UAir being his thing.

 

[Player -0]

Wait. So if Falco Dairs you. And there's no stage under you. You die?

Since when?

I'm guessing something to do with the needles having no hurtbox in P:M. Or a single needle kills one ice block.

 

[ChiePet]

-cough- thereee we go, good as new.

Spoiler

;~; You'll see my way some day!

EDIT:

Wait. So if Falco Dairs you. And there's no stage under you. You die?

Since when?

I'm guessing something to do with the needles having no hurtbox in P:M. Or a single needle kills one ice block.

You have a wonderful way with words. Flaaco's DAir i'm not 100% on this, I'm prettysure gets eaten by Peach's Up B. Parasol so good for Ledgehogs.

 

[Soft Serve]

Ok.

Let's talk Oli/(insert main here). I'm legitimately curious about various mu's that I haven't played, such as Diddy, IC's, Ike and more.

I would post a list of mu's I did play, but phone johns.

My only experience in the Oli/Diddy MU is getting bopped by SS's once in 3.0. I think Diddy wins pretty solidly though, expecially now with how hard he can **** on tether recoveries with z drop ledge grabs. Diddy has to play campy, he doesn't need to approach, and if he does try to force an opening he gets pivot grabbed and bodied. Popgun doesn't do much to olimar because he's small and has his own projectiles. Diddy can just dash dance with a banana in hand and probably punish side-bs/sh fairs on reaction. Haven't looked at the frame data for this yet though.

 

[Hylian]

I'm guessing its because needles completely go through blizzard now because they don't have hurtboxes

This is the exact reason yeah.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link vs. Peach is bad for peach because toon link can properly circle camp around peach on moderately large stages. He also doesn't really care about peachs position, because at all times he can use his great normals or projectiles to make peach question life

As TL you basically just keep moving and try not to stay stuck in your shield, the top platform is also your friend.

 

[ChiePet]

Toon Link vs. Peach is bad for peach because toon link can properly circle camp around peach on moderately large stages. He also doesn't really care about peachs position, because at all times he can use his great normals or projectiles to make peach question life

As TL you basically just keep moving and try not to stay stuck in your shield, the top platform is also your friend.

See, It's great info, don't get me wrong, but this is the same kind of broad answer I get from other TLink's.
I'd just like a little more elaboration; What is it she hates? is there a Normal to look out for? is there one to make good use of? (ex; DTilt on Ganon or Low BAirs on Sheik.) I'm not asking for a full write up, but It's just not enough info D;

 

[Deleted member]

Bombs are ridiculous, the main way you beat tink is by stopping him from pulling bombs, but she has 0 mobility to tell him not to. So Toon Link can maintain stage control while pestering peach with a projectile that racks up tons of % and converts into a combo/puts peach in bad positioning.

Shes way too slow, so toon links everything is good lol