Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

@ PlateProp thr ganon infinite works on other turtles too

That ganon missed though, he must suck

 

[ChiePet]

Suck More or Equal to most other Ganon Not-Mains/Still-Stuck-In-Brawl-Mindset Mains?

EDIT:

Because most people I've met that "Main Ganon" are the same people who like to go for very linear DAirs and get hype after 1 spike.

 

[Frost | Odds]

but with [Ganon's] weaknesses there's simply no way the potential extends all the way up to top tier. Unless there's something so crazy that nobody has figured out yet except you, but I highly doubt that.

I could be wrong (and it certainly wouldn't be the first, second, or last time, even in this thread) but that's precisely what I suspect. There's a ton of things that just aren't really used by ganons at all, much less to a polished degree.

- IASA frames in PM being interruptible by special moves and wavelands as well as attacks and DJ (ie. wavelands/side B after SH instant uair and stuff)
- Much Easier wavelands, especially those without requiring the DJ animation -> Ganon's waveland movement in PM can be a lot slicker than even Bizzarro Flame's melee movement
- The ridiculous nair
- Float as a movement option, particularly float -> delayed aerials as a landing mixup, and b-reversed floats
- Easy rapid jab using CSA
- Down B as a guaranteed kill in many tech chase situations. Hell, down b in general.
- AC bairs

the list sort of goes on, but you get the idea. I'm already doing things with Bowser that nobody began to suspect was really possible, and my Bowser is still extremely sloppy and unpolished. Ganon is capable of many of the same things (and same sorts of things) that my Bowser does (and many, many more), but better, more easily, with better payoffs and fewer risks. If someone actually hits the lab really hard with Ganon and works hard to actually maximize his tech and play a solid neutral game, I'd be willing to put money on him consistently making people place Ganon in top tier.


hahahah I accidentally a whole sentence pre-edit

 

[Bazkip]

I could be wrong (and it certainly wouldn't be the first, second, or last time, even in this thread) but that's precisely what I suspect. There's a ton of things that just aren't really used by ganons at all, much less to a polished degree.

- IASA frames in PM being interruptible by special moves and wavelands as well as attacks and DJ (ie. wavelands/side B after SH instant uair and stuff)
- Much Easier wavelands, especially those without requiring the DJ animation -> Ganon's waveland movement in PM can be a lot slicker than even Bizzarro Flame's melee movement
- The ridiculous nair
- Float as a movement option, particularly float -> delayed aerials as a landing mixup, and b-reversed floats
- Easy rapid jab using CSA
- Down B as a guaranteed kill in many tech chase situations. Hell, down b in general.
- AC bairs

the list sort of goes on, but you get the idea. I'm already doing things with Bowser that nobody began to suspect was really possible, and my Bowser is still extremely sloppy and unpolished. Ganon is capable of many of the same things (and same sorts of things) that my Bowser does (and many, many more), but better, more easily, with better payoffs and fewer risks. If someone actually hits the lab really hard with Ganon and works hard to actually maximize his tech and play a solid neutral game, I'd be willing to put money on him consistently making people place Ganon in top tier.


hahahah I accidentally a whole sentence pre-edit

None of these address his weaknesses asides from mobility somewhat. People who run circles around him will still be about to do so even with perfected wavelands.
Sure there's room to improve but like I already said there's simply no way the potential goes that high.

Most of cast also has ways to go with their development and many are currently considered to be better characters than Ganon. Yeah he can be played better...but so can everyone else. I don't see any reason for this to change significantly barring either the discovery of something well beyond what even you believe are potential avenues for improvement, or significant balance changes.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You're totally right that most of the cast is underdeveloped. I think Ganon's weaknesses are overstated in this game, though - unlike Melee, he's got an abundance of threats and safe options, and is actually good at cornering fast opponents; so his relative lack of mobility, in my opinion, is much less of an issue than it was.

This is all personal opinions and speculation. Will probably pick Ganon up once my Ivy's at an acceptable level.

 

[Chevy]

I could be wrong (and it certainly wouldn't be the first, second, or last time, even in this thread) but that's precisely what I suspect. There's a ton of things that just aren't really used by ganons at all, much less to a polished degree.

- IASA frames in PM being interruptible by special moves and wavelands as well as attacks and DJ (ie. wavelands/side B after SH instant uair and stuff)
- Much Easier wavelands, especially those without requiring the DJ animation -> Ganon's waveland movement in PM can be a lot slicker than even Bizzarro Flame's melee movement
- The ridiculous nair
- Float as a movement option, particularly float -> delayed aerials as a landing mixup, and b-reversed floats
- Easy rapid jab using CSA
- Down B as a guaranteed kill in many tech chase situations. Hell, down b in general.
- AC bairs

the list sort of goes on, but you get the idea. I'm already doing things with Bowser that nobody began to suspect was really possible, and my Bowser is still extremely sloppy and unpolished. Ganon is capable of many of the same things (and same sorts of things) that my Bowser does (and many, many more), but better, more easily, with better payoffs and fewer risks. If someone actually hits the lab really hard with Ganon and works hard to actually maximize his tech and play a solid neutral game, I'd be willing to put money on him consistently making people place Ganon in top tier.


hahahah I accidentally a whole sentence pre-edit

Headcrab pretty well incorporates all of this, barring rapid jabs(which I keep telling him to do).

 

[Taytertot]

Ganon, really? I know he now has a float and a better side B but are these really enough to push him from barely a high tier at best in Melee to a top tier in PM?

I mean would these things really help in matchups he struggled in the past? Doesn't he have many of the same major weaknesses as before?

i agree with odds. the float isnt that huge. sideB is great but personally i think that ganon is so much better because of the small changes like having a shorter knee bend animation and auto cancel nair and much better dodge animations.

 

[PlateProp]

Warlock punch comeback when

 

[Player -0]

You worded that so weirdly.

Dem knee bends though.

 

[ChiePet]

I have YET to see anyone in 3.5 fully optimize "The Beckham"

GDLK/Awful name for the move aside, Wavelanding into a backwards UAir (get it? Scissor kick, hahah-kill me.) is sooo good and I hate to see such (significantly more) swag moves not being used by Ganons.

just DAir, DAir, DAir, Side B, Side B, DAir, Down B, Jab, FAir, DAir, Side B suicide, accidental but it worked BAir, DAir, ect ect..

the best thing I've seen Ganon do since 3.5 release is seeing someone used Neutral B as a Jab Reset tool. BECAUSE JAB ITSELF HITS TOO HARD TO DO IT, AMIRITE>!?

 

[CORY]

You're watching some real crappy ganons if there's that much lack of Nair.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Headcrab pretty well incorporates all of this, barring rapid jabs(which I keep telling him to do).

No disrespect to headcrab, but his game still needs an awful lot of polish, especially in terms of punish game and regular fundamentals. He's a super talented player (and did very well against me in friendlies!), but doesn't yet appear to have the experience necessary to take Ganon to the next level.

 

[Saproling]

What do y'all think about Ivy? After picking her up I keep flip flopping on whether she's perfect or maybe a tiny bit on the weak side. Definitely a design jewel at this point, in either case.

I think she needs a small shield buff or maybe fair to be 1 or 2 frames faster.

 

[Foo]

coughCaptainFalcon'sNAircough.

Falcon's nair is a combo ender? Don't think so. Falcon nair is mostly used against grounded opponents and it works really well for that. The first hit even links really well to grab. It also has a LOT bigger hitboxes. I'm not saying multihit aerials shouldn't exist, I'm saying it's really lame to have as your combo finisher.

why do I keep seeing people say that ZSS' up-smash doesn't work properly? people fall out due to SDI, not because of the move

No, I literally tested it on characters on platforms in versus mode with no inputs from the target. Without even SDIng, they can fall out if you do it out of run really easily. The best way to use it is while standing still, but the problem is zss never really stands still. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have marth upsmash.

Or you could...use the move intelligibly. They aren't going to punish you if you catch them landing on a platform with it for example. Multi-hit moves by nature can be punished if SDI'd out of, this is true of many characters with them. It's an inherent weakness of having one, the plus side being damage and hitbox disruption(or active frames), as well as versatility for ones you can cut short. ZSS upsmash is not a great move..that doesn't mean it's broken.

So you are saying that I have to be smart and never use the move? Sounds about right to me. If you tech chase on platforms with it, they'll almost always fall out if they understand the concept of SDI because they'll only have to get like two inputs because your sliding makes them fall out almost all the way. Look at upsmashes like roy, zelda, and samus. They have vacuum hitboxes to suck you in. I'm not saying zss upsmash needs to be literally impossible to sdi out of, but I really want them to at least have to sdi to get out of it. Atm the only use for it is hard read (because you have to be standing still when you use it) platform tech chases on spacies and falcon who don't know how to (regular) DI it.

Landing a move to land it aside, I like the idea of trying to keep an opponent airborn 1-2 times to throw Up B instead and have them get caught off guard being instantly thrown onto the ground in front of me vs being in the air trying to get away.

That's what uptilt does. Uptilt is a completely fine multhit move, as is up-b and (for the most part) side b (the hitbox closer to you doesn't link to the sweetspot on some characters even if they don't sdi or cc, but I bet it's impossible to make it work for every character.)

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I feel like ZSS' kit is not well put together. Like some of her moves are pretty cool by themselves, but don't mesh right at all with her other moves.

 

[Foo]

I feel like ZSS' kit is not well put together. Like some of her moves are pretty cool by themselves, but don't mesh right at all with her other moves.

I wouldn't say that at all. Fair doesn't really work as a multihit and would never have been made one but brawl. Upsmash is just kinda non-functional. I would love if it were a relatively low lag, thin hitbox (think marth upsmash) that sent vertically with high base and low scaling knockback so that it would be useful for getting some comboing done on fast fallers. For the knockback, think, not able to chain to itself past low %s on fast fallers and less useful the floatier the characters are (the opposite of nair). It'd be kinda like the first hit of up-b.

Overall, though, I love how her moves work together. Her aerials and up-b along with stuff like down-tilt and uptilt create a really deep, fun and versatile (unless you are a fast faller) combo game. Having an aerial finisher like fair being better makes her so much more awesome (last patch it was abysmal, and I got told the same types of things when I mentioned it lawl) but it still isn't quite there yet and I really so no reason for it to be multihit.

Ideally, I'd like zss to have throws with more purpose. I'd like upthrow to be more of a positional throw, rather than throw them vaguely up but with just enough lag and distance so no follow ups and more like jiggles but with more knockback just for positional advantage. For dthrow, I'd like it to be a lower angle so that it's an actual tech chase throw against a larger portion of the cast. Right, it either works great or you can't tell if they are going to go for tech or try to DI up a bit and then you don't know. (see, drinkingfoods statements on it, if you think I'm biased). Fthrow and bthrow are pretty meh, but that's fine.

Next on the list would be her recovery. It's kinda dumb right now. When you tether ledge, characters can either hit you guaranteed for free everytime no matter what on reaction, probably killing you, or they can't do anything at all with little room inbetween. I'm not sure what to change about it, but it's pretty silly as is. Finally, add a tad but of nair range and make her not get down-b back after getting hit and maybe nerf how quickly her blaster shoots or something. (oh, and if there was some way to make dair less ******** against fatties without making it suck against everyone, that'd be nice I guess. I just want a more even matchup spread)

imo she's really close to being absolutely awesome, but there are a few small hangups that make her infuriating to play, the major one being unable to combo fast fallers because that really polarizes her matchup spread. I love zss, but I really don't want to play a character with that many matchups at 70:30 or more on either side.


EDIT: @ Soft Serve below me. If you are directly under someone in a tech chase situation, you dash and use it asap and you will still slide too far unless they roll a long distance on the platform. Also, if you do that and they are on the edge of a platform they can fall out of the bottom corner on the first couple hits. Picking a different option is totally the way to go. I basically never use upsmash and most of the time it's a missed input. It's just kinda sad to not be able to use a move because of that reason. I'm not saying anything remotely near "I'm losing because zss upsmash doesn't work" I'm saying "I think she'd be a better designed character if we changed her upsmash"


Oh, also, diddy upsmash has three hits and lasts for 10-14 frames. His fsmash has two hits and lasts for 2-5 frames. Zss upsmash has 7 hits and lasts for 13-17 frames. Last hit of zss upsmash is frame 28-30, and the last hits of diddy upsmash and fsmash are frame 19-25 and 18-22 respectively.

 

[Soft Serve]

I mean yeah I'd kill for Diddy's up/fsmashes to be single hit, because they are so easily ASDI down'ed>shielded, but instead I just only use them in situations where they will actually be effective. Like spacing/timing so only the last hit of fsmash hits. Or sparingly use upsmash when I know they are DIing for a nair or uptilt or something.

Foo if they are falling out of the move because you are sliding too far doing running upsmashes, then start it sooner or do like, crouch>upsmash so you dont have so much momentum. Or just use a better move for those situations. Theres easy fixes to these problems, normally just picking a better option

 

[4tlas]

Ok I'd like to post a tier list despite being some random scrub. I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak and be disregarded no matter what I say, and I am fully aware that I will be wrong somewhere.

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half




The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order. The split between the upper and lower halves is arbitrary, I just did that so there were some guidelines. Honestly I think the last row of Upper and first row of Lower are pretty close.

And yes I know all the characters can do insane things, and everyones viable, and yada yada is mid-high. At the end of the day, someone has to be in the bottom half. Please don't disregard this post just because I put your character in the lower half. And just because you can prove to me that they are a good character does not mean the ones they are tied with aren't just as good! And of course I'm biased because I don't have experience with everything and even then it would be with regards to my character, so I can't see everything.

I think its sad that I feel compelled to add such a disclaimer because of all the **** I see people get for their lists. I don't have much confidence in this anyway, I just wanted to throw something up here so we could get back to talking about Tier Lists instead of design philosophy, buffs/nerfs, the theoretical skillcap of characters, or whatever. Please discuss.

 

[JOE!]

Atlas, didujustputzardas3rdwirstwtf

 

[Foo]

@ JOE! read pls. Zard is somewhere between 29 and 41 (I think, too tired to count and math)

The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order.

 

[4tlas]

Atlas, didujustputzardas3rdwirstwtf

Well I said the rows are tied...

On that note, everyone always says "this character is so good it has to be at least mid/high". But not every character can be mid-high! Can you name 20 characters that are DEFINITELY WORSE THAN your mid-high one? No, because they're probably tied with everyone in the smack-dab average category.

Thanks Foo, but I know Joe IRL and I'm pretty sure he's just trolling me as per his modus operandi.

 

[JOE!]

@ JOE! read pls. Zard is somewhere between 29 and 41 (I think, too tired to count and math)

On my phone, zard/popo/booze were their own row lol.

Still, I'd say lizardon is at least on dks lvl

 

[4tlas]

On my phone, zard/popo/booze were their own row lol.

Still, I'd say lizardon is at least on dks lvl

Oh, you can't technology. I thought you were just trolling me.

I put him beneath DK because I can think of few things Zard can do that DK can't (kill floaties SUPER easily, I suppose) but DK's grab game helps to mitigate his fatty weakness (huge hitbox, easy to pressure) by increasing the risk 10-fold. And I think that's a pretty good reason for DK to be a mostly better Zard.

But the tiers in this game are all super close so meh. Both are fine.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Okay, it will be interesting to see if anyone takes Ganon to the next level. I doubt it because the dedicated PM players tend to play non-Melee viable characters. The Melee viable characters are mainly successful from Melee players who pretty much never use the new tools at their disposal.

Anyway new question, which Brawl characters do you guys think have enormous potential that's yet to be seen?

 

[941]

Anyway new question, which Brawl characters do you guys think have enormous potential that's yet to be seen?

I could see Squirtle being really good if a really dedicated player picked him up. I wouldn't say he's exactly top 5, but I definitely think he's one of the most untapped characters in the game. He already has a lot of movement options, and I'm willing to bet there are more that haven't been discovered, and some that aren't being utilized as well as they could be. He does struggle with a few MUs against strong/popular characters though, so he might be difficult to solo main.

 

[eideeiit]

A scrub's uneducated opinion: Mewtwo as he is is incredible and someday someone will prove it to everyone. He can basically do so many of the things that make Fox so good if played properly: pick his battles, non-interact, combo all day and edgeguard better than Bowser. He can stay safe extremely easily and it's so very easy for him to gtfo when he wants to. A competent Mewtwo main has to get significantly outplayed so he can lose.

Also @ 941 : I agree Squirtle has potential, but I don't ever see him going high tier because he's basically Captain Falcon with even worse tech options, no knee and more telegraphed and commital movement.

 

[DrinkingFood]

MewTwo can't do at all what fox does to pick his battles. Wavedash has variable distance but is totally vulnerable for the start-up meaning you can't react to any last minute positioning/approach attempts from the opponent, you just have to hope your wavedash was either in the right direction at the right time, or that they chose to do nothing. Teleport may be quick but it's still a fair share of commitment. You can give me frame data showing he has a lot of invul and can out of it like frame... 26ish? don't remember. But it's also committed to a distance. That fact means there's zones it doesn't work for, and that there's zones the opponent can cover to help mitigate the usefulness of teleport. Meanwhile fox's burst movement doesn't really have zones like that. Because it's all basically dash dancing, a fast run+quicker wavedash, and incredibly quick vertical movement and platforming ability. On top of being smaller and having a less committed projectile.

I'm not saying mewtwo is bad by any stretch of the imagination, because his punish game is very strong and his ability to avoid punishes is also really strong, skewing any possibility of a weak neutral game in his favor due to needing to win it less than the opponent. His neutral game isn't necessarily weak of course, but seems to me more akin to peach with a sword (as if I hadn't said this enough) in that he's basically putting out long reaching hitboxes with almost no lag. Not at all like fox, who threatens until he forces you to commit to something punishable, or if you don't commit, can go in safely on a whim and punish you without even doing damage.

 

[Shadic]

Also @ 941 : I agree Squirtle has potential, but I don't ever see him going high tier because he's basically Captain Falcon with even worse tech options, no knee and more telegraphed and commital movement.

He's also much harder to hit, and has an armored Sheik Fair as his Nair.

That's not even getting into how crazy Dsmash and USmash can be. Nor the YOLO Aquajet kill option on floaties.

 

[Boiko]

He's also much harder to hit, and has an armored Sheik Fair as his Nair.

That's not even getting into how crazy Dsmash and USmash can be. Nor the YOLO Aquajet kill option on floaties.

And he has a non-garbo recovery.

 

[steelguttey]

nobody has realized how stupid squirtle really is

he has the airspeed of falcon and luigi's wavedash its like he is a ****ing magic scrumpy mod or some ****

on top of that, he has armor and one of his armored moves sends you at the most bull**** angle ever

 

[mimgrim]

Oh, you can't technology. I thought you were just trolling me.

I put him beneath DK because I can think of few things Zard can do that DK can't (kill floaties SUPER easily, I suppose) but DK's grab game helps to mitigate his fatty weakness (huge hitbox, easy to pressure) by increasing the risk 10-fold. And I think that's a pretty good reason for DK to be a mostly better Zard.

But the tiers in this game are all super close so meh. Both are fine.

Zard has raw mobility to cover his fatty weakness. The other fatties wish they had his mobility.

Anyway new question, which Brawl characters do you guys think have enormous potential that's yet to be seen?

All of them.

A scrub's uneducated opinion: Mewtwo as he is is incredible and someday someone will prove it to everyone. He can basically do so many of the things that make Fox so good if played properly: pick his battles, non-interact, combo all day and edgeguard better than Bowser. He can stay safe extremely easily and it's so very easy for him to gtfo when he wants to. A competent Mewtwo main has to get significantly outplayed so he can lose.

Mewtwo isn't a Brawl character.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Got it get my 2 cents before Squirtle mains come in and ruin the moment. Squirtle has a lot of untapped potential. He can go so deep for kills, his bair is amazing, he has a frame 3 D til that can be comboed from a water gun, his Nair is amazing, and he has the best tech chasing in the game (WD, Slingjump, hydrosmashes/grabs/shields/whatever). He has a solid recovery and a low profile and bubble, don't forget about bubble. I realize you can do this for everyone, but uhhh, Squirtle mains suck...

 

[CELTiiC]

nobody has realized how stupid squirtle really is

he has the airspeed of falcon and luigi's wavedash its like he is a ****ing magic scrumpy mod or some ****

on top of that, he has armor and one of his armored moves sends you at the most bull**** angle ever

I agree 100%. Also Squirtle's d-tilt and d-smash are annoying moves to deal with considering how they can shield poke and pop you up at a perfect angle to get juggled or for a followup of some kind with Squirtle. His recovery is also really good, and his n-air is a combo breaker with it's armor. Also his b-air is an amazing move and he even has a decently reliable kill throw. My roommate plays Squirtle and from like 200+ matches of playing against him with Fox, Marth and DK I'd definitely say Squirtle is vastly under rated.

 

[Juushichi]

I think Squirtle would be less underrated if you could actually grab him half the time or if he was the same size as say... Pikachu.

Between his crouch, dsmash, crawl tilt, dtilt and etc he is very difficult to interact with in a smash normative sense.

That's not even to speak about how Squirtle can platform camp you on larger stages if he feels like it.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I think Squirtle would be less underrated if you could actually grab him half the time or if he was the same size as say... Pikachu.

Between his crouch, dsmash, crawl tilt, dtilt and etc he is very difficult to interact with in a smash normative sense.

That's not even to speak about how Squirtle can platform camp you on larger stages if he feels like it.

Lol welcome to the fun of squirtle our pm version of mvc2 servebot. The difference is he actually has some good offensive tools as well. As far as grabbing him though, unless it's a pivot grab your better off trying to grab 3.02 Kirby after a dash attack.

 

[jtm94]

I didn't know the Aqua was so strong. I know it puts you in special fall, but that's a pretty good punish if I say so.

He has intangibility on his tail during dtilt and dair. Nair sends at the same angle of 25 degrees as Sheik's fair, but at 100% it is 12.5% weaker when calculating final knockback. Jab is also frame 2, but it doesn't seem like his other moves lend him the ability to get sick frame traps like Sheik unfortunately.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I think you're actually OVERRATING Squirtle a little bit.

I mean, he doesn't have a real dash dance. All he does is that ******** shell shift thing that doesn't help you at all and just gives you a slow af turnaround.

Additionally, he's a water Pokémon. Water. Have you ever used water IRL? Like, tap water? It doesn't hurt. Like, at all. Try to pour it onto your hands, you'll be perfectly fine. Squirtle's attacks don't do any damage. It's physics, look it up.

Could you please ignore this character again. And don't even bother learning the matchup or sth, 100% waste of time.

 

[Life]

can we just have a real techroll in 3.6

seriously, the techroll is a huge issue for Squirtle, characters like Falcon and Sheik and Ganondorf and Wario can abuse it incredibly hard. there are very few reasons why Squirtle is still held back and this is one of them.

 

[Vitriform]

I think you're actually OVERRATING Squirtle a little bit.

I mean, he doesn't have a real dash dance. All he does is that ******** shell shift thing that doesn't help you at all and just gives you a slow af turnaround.

Additionally, he's a water Pokémon. Water. Have you ever used water IRL? Like, tap water? It doesn't hurt. Like, at all. Try to pour it onto your hands, you'll be perfectly fine. Squirtle's attacks don't do any damage. It's physics, look it up.

Could you please ignore this character again. And don't even bother learning the matchup or sth, 100% waste of time.

Except high-pressure water is used in industrial applications to cut steel. I'm fairly sure that would screw you up pretty hard if you were blasted with it.

In all seriousness, I think Squirtle's fine. He's definitely underutilized and nobody is even remotely close to realizing his full potential. He has so many movement mixups and options which even his best players are not using to their advantage. At the current skill level of his player base, I can't seem him getting very strong. But the second someone optimizes him, I think he will become A tier / A+ tier at worst.

 

[Frost | Odds]

can we just have a real techroll in 3.6

seriously, the techroll is a huge issue for Squirtle, characters like Falcon and Sheik and Ganondorf and Wario can abuse it incredibly hard. there are very few reasons why Squirtle is still held back and this is one of them.

Now imagine having the same techroll, and also a hurtbox that's literally about 200 30 times bigger

In seriousness, I'm all for normalizing tech rolls to some degree. There's just way too much variation. The characters that really need good tech rolls have terrible ones, and the characters that least need good tech rolls have godly ones.

EDIT: hijacking that prized Shadic like and running with it to make actual balance arguments