Tier List Speculation

[CORY]

yo, @Lunchables , what're some good side characters for ganon.

 

[eideeiit]

Nerf Ness




Really tho, @ Boiko , was this streamed/recorded? Did he have any idea of the MU?

 

[Player -0]

It's in Fox's favor, Cactuar probably didn't play the neutral right and got wrecked by DJC and grab combos/straight combos. That's what I'm guessing is what happened.

 

[Deleted member]

In regards to tier list speculation, can we talk about how Ness is bottom five and Fox is broken beyond comprehension?

Spoiler

1. no one ever says ness is bottom 5 and
2. cactuar doesnt play PM so you basically beat him in a blind MU since PM ness is nothing like melee ness

ALSO I WANTED TO LEAVE THIS THREAD STOP TAGGING ME AGAIN YOU IDIOTS

no @Lunchables, i want you to suffer

 

[PlateProp]

Tag @Lunchables Discussion Thread

Copypasta proposed ROB changes pls? c:

 

[Boiko]

@Umbreon NZA says Ness is bottom five, Strong Bad had him toward the bottom of his tier list, as did Lunchables. Cactuar enters PM tournaments, and is even considering picking up Peach in PM for specific match ups. Not sure what you're on about.

Even if he didn't know the match up, I was playing against one of the smartest smash players of all time. Anything I did for one stock, that felt remotely safe, was immediately punished the next. He adapted insanely fast and played the match up almost perfectly. The entire set, we were both forced to change our play styles on the fly. When I felt he was being more passive, and trying to establish his space, I began to increase my aggression and threaten his zone with DJC bairs and fairs. When he was playing aggro and putting on crazy Fox pressure, I would wait for the right opportunity to drop shield, eat a shine, and have it push me to ledge. The entire set, for both of us, was just insane adaptation all around. Like I said, something was safe for one moment, then I would attempt that approach again and literally die for it. But yeah, he's just another melee player.

I mean he definitely didn't SDI uair chains to make them difficult to follow up on, mix up his recovery, bait and punish PK Fires, adapt to all of my habits, etc. So funny how people can immediately dismiss a win when they weren't even there to watch the set. It came down to me being able to take my adaptations and adjustments slightly further. All three games were last stock, last hit situation. I had a few amazing reads on his recovery, and I managed to mix mine up extremely well, causing him to miss two or three edge guards.

Sorry guys, the tournament only streamed melee, so no VODs.

 

[trash?]

it's mighty convenient that this set that absotively, posilutely confirms that ness isn't kind of blunted vs a player that is obviously fantastic has no actual footage for us to watch, thus ensuring we're pretty much forced to take your anecdote at face value

sorry dude, I know you love preaching how good ness is, but people want to see actual evidence they can look at with their eyeballs to make their own matchup/player dissections with. if there's a set that can prove you right, it's going to have to be one that was actually recorded

 

[Boiko]

it's mighty convenient that this set that absotively, posilutely confirms that ness isn't kind of blunted with a player that is obviously fantastic has no actual footage for us to watch, thus ensuring we're pretty much forced to take your anecdote at face value

sorry dude, I know you love preaching how good ness is, but people want to see actual evidence they can look at with their eyeballs to make their own judgements with. if there's a set that can prove you right, it's going to have to be one that was actually recorded

I'm not saying Ness is godlike, I think he's at the slightly high end of mid tier. People just critically underrate him. A few pages back, furta linked a video of StereoKiDD laying Hero of Time to rest (didn't he get around top 8 at aftershock? don't have the bracket). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTvF1AM4Rkw

It's funny you say that, because people still call DDD low tier despite Ripple postings videos with amazing results. Kind of the opposite of the spectrum there.

Sorry I couldn't get footage, I didn't run the tournament.

 

[trash?]

"because people still call DDD low tier"

nobody even remotely-competent with understanding DDD says that? everyone says he's an anti-meta mid tier, because he's an anti-meta mid tier, that's about as accurate of a spot for him as you can get (and a pretty good spot in general, being able to deal with a good number of top tier threats is always a good thing)

e: unless you're still believing those times 9bit posts the ivan ooze image, cuz that's just a running joke now

 

[Deleted member]

yo, @Lunchables , what're some good side characters for ganon.

Ok so I get that the tag thing was a joke but I actually have a decent answer for this

I think Toon Link/Roy might be the best way to cover matchups in PM that doesn't use Fox. Toon Link beats nearly every PM character and Roy is great vs the melee cast. The only really problematic matchup is Rob, and there are some 5-5 with other vets but thats still really good. I don't exactly know ganons MU spreadsheet, but if he sucks vs most PM characters then toonlink might actually be a good choice, Roy for melee.

 

[Boiko]

Wouldn't being able to deal with top tier threats, which are also the most frequently characters encountered at tournaments, be something that inflates your tier list placing? How many active, top level Ivysaurs are there to deal with the DDD's of the world? And what about Foxes? Do you see my point? I'm not saying it's a fact or the way it is, but when I make a tier list, I more heavily weight the match up spreads against more commonly seen match ups.

 

[DMG]

Dedede doesn't even belong in a tier. Should just make a Ripple tier that exists outside the conventional wisdom and knowledge of "Is this character good or bad?", because he basically makes magic happen

 

[trash?]

so we're arguing over semantics on what a tier list is, I guess?

note that I didn't state he countered all, or even most top tiers, just a good number of them. I set him right beside melee samus in terms of anti-metagame characters, and again, that's not a bad place to be.

I'd rather let ripple talk more about it if he wants to tho, I'm no full-on expert and could be talking a lot of lies, but it's clear that what ripple is best at is abusing matchups to a very efficient degree

 

[CORY]

Ok so I get that the tag thing was a joke but I actually have a decent answer for this

I think Toon Link/Roy might be the best way to cover matchups in PM that doesn't use Fox. Toon Link beats nearly every PM character and Roy is great vs the melee cast. The only really problematic matchup is Rob, and there are some 5-5 with other vets but thats still really good. I don't exactly know ganons MU spreadsheet, but if he sucks vs most PM characters then toonlink might actually be a good choice, Roy for melee.

hrmmm... that's a really interesting rationale. i'll think on this, actually...

thanks for making a serious response to my troll post : O

 

[Boiko]

I don't know. This is just kind of the way things went, LOL.

 

[FreeGamer]

So we're complaining about free followups out of throws now?

Considering how inconsistent they are with 3.5's philosophy, I don't see why not.

 

[Ripple]

I'm not sure what to say really. I don't think DDD is high tier and he's barely mid tier at all.

I think I'm really ****ing good at forcing people to make mistakes and reading jumps and DI

 

[Warzenschwein]

R.O.B needs more representation so people don't give us weird looks when we say he's stupid.
Atmo it's like "rob is stupid cuz: 3 page explanation" answer: "prove it!!!!!!"

well gee how do you want me to prove it if everybody including their grandmothers play foxy mac shineboy and his allegiant servant flaco ze shinebird

 

[trash?]

hey hey hey hey, don't be rude

falco is alright nowadays, chilling with toon link under the tolerable a-tiers with notable flaws

 

[TheGravyTrain]

it probably is, DI'ing away from uthrow works every time on everyone except for maybe snake

To expand on what I said. Outside of maybe some characters potentially being caught by dthrow ftilt, back throw sets up tech chases at low percents. At mid percents, up throw dimensional cape seems to work (Mk boards say it does iirc). F throw is the worst, but it can be used to catch bad di and platform followups. Dthrow at high percents is its only use.

 

[Player -0]

What do you do vs. DDD's dumb throws? Esp. D-Throw at the ledge. It seems like you're just boned.

Edit - @ Ripple

 

[Life]

What do you do vs. DDD's dumb throws? Esp. D-Throw at the ledge. It seems like you're just boned.

There isn't a ton you can do once grabbed, other than being good at recovery. However, D3's not super mobile, so if you are better than the D3 you can usually avoid getting grabbed in a bad position in the first place.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I need some smasher to adopt me so I can move out of my dinky hometown and give ROB some representation at a good scene

 

[The Baron]

I need some smasher to adopt me so I can move out of my dinky hometown and give ROB some representation at a good scene

Whatever happened to oracle. Haven't seen him on tourney locator pm in quite a while. His rob was always entertaining.

 

[jtm94]

ROB is silly. I have to respect his grab as if her were Ganon.
Starting to realize I have to DI behind him at low % and eat bair because uair > uair will leave me at worse positioning.
Uair always works out of dthrow and if you DI away you die, DI in take another uair and die.
He still has a small shield so you can poke him, but he's so heavy I can't win the CC war and just get CC grabbed all day. That's why I like Zelda against him because you can't CC her and her floatiness almost lets me escape combos.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Which character in PM do you guys think has a ton of potential that no one has really shown yet?

As in a character with no notable (major) tournament results but given their tools should really shine if someone were to dedicate themselves to the character.

 

[Ripple]

What do you do vs. DDD's dumb throws? Esp. D-Throw at the ledge. It seems like you're just boned.

Edit - @ Ripple

at the ledge? youre boned

anywhere else. Take a guess and hope it pays off

 

[Frost | Odds]

Which character in PM do you guys think has a ton of potential that no one has really shown yet?

Nobody's put the time in to maximize Ganon. Not even close. Same with Mewtwo, though @~Frozen~ is starting to get pretty solid with his tech skill.

I've also got my suspicions about Peach. If someone actually used all her new PM stuff in addition to solid Melee stuff, she's probably a monster.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Ganon, really? I know he now has a float and a better side B but are these really enough to push him from barely a high tier at best in Melee to a top tier in PM?

I mean would these things really help in matchups he struggled in the past? Doesn't he have many of the same major weaknesses as before?

 

[Narpas_sword]

I wish people would stop looking at characters melee positions, their PM changes then trying to make a result on that =/

Look at the PM character, look at the other PM characters and forget about where it was in melee.
It makes no sense to look at where they are in melee, when it's an entirely new game with entirely new opponents.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I wish people would stop looking at characters melee positions, their PM changes then trying to make a result on that =/

Look at the PM character, look at the other PM characters and forget about where it was in melee.
It makes no sense to look at where they are in melee, when it's an entirely new game with entirely new opponents.

Entirely new opponents...is that why Fox also dominates in this game utilizing the exact same strategies?

If Melee top tiers were rare in PM and weren't getting results you might have had a point.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Point still stands, there are more different characters than your 1 example.

 

[steelguttey]

Point still stands, there are more different characters than your 1 example.

"you proved me wrong but my point still stands"

shiek, falco and falcon are 3 more examples of the same thing

 

[Ningildo]

Let's not talk about fox again...please...

Yoshi seems pretty underrated and unexplored. DJC in conjunction with abusing heavy armor, godlike weight for CC, good projectile, other things that I likely forgot while trying to portray the good points of a character I don't play.

Recovery sucks, though, and he has nightmares about dying to a footstool at 20%. Also, not sure if he has any decent OoS options besides Nair, maybe.

 

[Narpas_sword]

different opponents meant the characters have new tools.
Not that they cant be played the same.

He didn't argue against the point, so it still stands.

 

[Sardonyx]

I feel like ZSS is severely underrepresented. Some of my friends that maimed her in 3.02 dropped her in 3.5 for some reason, though I don't understand how her changes affected her playstyle.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

What do you do vs. DDD's dumb throws? Esp. D-Throw at the ledge. It seems like you're just boned.

Edit - @ Ripple

Have you tried di down and away from DDD? Problem is, at ledge it is a di trap with forward throw, if you di in he can regrab though and if your floatyish, I dont think there is a right answer. Then again, I play diddy, so don't catch the abuse as bad vs DDD and Rob. Rob's down throw is literally ganon's so best option is don't get grabbed.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Let's not talk about fox again...please...

Yoshi seems pretty underrated and unexplored. DJC in conjunction with abusing heavy armor, godlike weight for CC, good projectile, other things that I likely forgot while trying to portray the good points of a character I don't play.

Recovery sucks, though, and he has nightmares about dying to a footstool at 20%. Also, not sure if he has any decent OoS options besides Nair, maybe.

Double jump land allows a frame 9 jab OoS. For things that are normally safe on shield due to spacing (ones that would require WD OoS, but aren't negative enough) you can dtilt OoS at 14. If any of this is incorrect, its the frame data thread which I don't really trust. Can't test atm.

 

[Blitzus]

Have you tried di down and away from DDD?

I have a severe mental aversion to doing this. This is exactly what competitive smash has conditioned me not to do.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I feel like ZSS is severely underrepresented. Some of my friends that maimed her in 3.02 dropped her in 3.5 for some reason, though I don't understand how her changes affected her playstyle.

Significant playstyle shifts with a touch of the "less fun/interesting" that's come up in the last couple pages regarding other characters. She was already underrepresented in 3.02, the changes just diminished what little representation she had.

Also doesn't help that she has even to awful matchups against all the Melee top tiers. Spacies in particular are really hard for her.