Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

with ganon's neutral, it's less about him lacking quick options (you have nair and uair at frame 10 and 11, respectively; .

what? nair comes out frame 5, and uair is frame 6

 

[Strong Badam]

I think he was adding jumpsquat to the equation.

 

[CORY]

what? nair comes out frame 5, and uair is frame 6

I think he was adding jumpsquat to the equation.

yeah, i was going with the assumption you'd be doing the attack off the ground.

 

[FreeGamer]

To me at the moment he feels really amazing against bad players, and really mediocre against good players. I'm not a great Kirby, but he just seems to get zoned/outranged really hard in a lot of MUs.

Probably better than I'm giving him credit for, but eh.

I'd say his biggest issue is his neutral, and he definitely has weaknesses to complement his strengths. Maybe he's a little too balanced LOL.

 

[Ripple]

if people played kirby's neutral like I play mine, you would have a good character

 

[FreeGamer]

if people played kirby's neutral like I play mine, you would have a good character

explain

 

[Binary Clone]

explain

jump

 

[TheGravyTrain]

There has to be some merit of the dash dance and limbo crouch game. Kirby doesn't have a default projectile or the priority D3 has coming down. So maybe in certain matchups, but I can't see it being the end all solution.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ganon also has a great upB oos, an amazing punish game from grab, and a ton of other stuff that it seems nobody uses.

explain

Jump. Constantly force mixups on your opponent, particularly with Kirby's good command grab. Play very defensively until an opening appears and then tear into the other guy without mercy.

 

[Deleted member]

also wavedashes can be read.

don't take this as a personal attack, but your views on fox are flagrantly wrong and too absurd for anyone that understands the game to even mildly process them without having an aneurysm. let's go over this one more time for the sake of posterity-

1. drop the melee comparisons. fox is a balanced character in melee because there are other top tiers on par with him (falco and marth) and there are somewhat effective counter-measures to the character, including but not limited to stage counterpicking and other more volatile punishment games. in objective evaluation, melee fox is still horribly, horribly imbalanced with 20+ MUs out of 26 that are 100-0 if the fox chooses to play them correctly, but the addition of other top tiers somewhat justifies this design (and it has to, since we cant change melee).

all other characters as good as fox in PM have been nerfed below fox because they have attributes that were deemed too good and were subsequently removed in the name of good design. as of 3.5, the only top tier is fox, in terms of both theoretical goodness and tournament performance alike, and fox also has 80%+ of the few bad design characteristics left in the entire game on one character. fox is (barely) fine in melee, but absolutely not in PM. they are different games and needed to be treated as such.

2. drop the "12 years of metagame development". first, its 2015, so it's closer to 13.5 years, but that doesnt matter either. as of right now there are no dedicated fox players for PM only. the good fox players in PM are all unanimously melee players that transfer all of their skills into PM with absolutely no friction what-so-ever. not only does this argument invalidate all credibility that other seriously lab rats have put into testing, fox players are actually doing zero or less than zero innovation because they don't have to, and fox still has the highest win rate, by a lot.

3. even if fox has even or losing MUs (none of which are mutually agreed upon by absolutely anyone btw), if you are playing to win, you are still going to play only fox because thats going to yield the highest win rate, and doing anything else is effectively giving yourself a strict tactical disadvantage. you cant really play multiple characters evenly, because any other character can go into a blind MU game 1 and risk a losing MU. so you have no business starting on any character other than fox on game 1. but then there are also zero confirmed counter-strategies to the character either, so you really have no reason to switch off of fox either. even if your opponents did have effective counter-strategies to fox, they are still much less than those against every other character and you are still at a net gain by never switching.

4. the advantage to playing fox is that you can choose when to attack. other characters like metaknight and sonic and CF can maybe imitate this characteristic somewhat, but the cold truth is that fox is the only one that can do it as the real deal, regardless of stage or opponent because fox's movement is not as linear on platforms and those other characters dont have lasers. you can not make a game based on positioning, and then make one character able to ignore the opponents attempts at positioning, and then also give that character most of the remaining unfair tools in the game all at the same time, and call that a good balance. all of the top and most knowledgeable PM players have issues with fox. every single one of them, unanimously, and myself included.

edit:

Jump. Constantly force mixups on your opponent, particularly with Kirby's good command grab. Play very defensively until an opening appears and then tear into the other guy without mercy.

if you jump against me, i will kill you for it.

better to think twice about forfeiting most of your defensive options in the name of mediocre/risky pressure imo

 

[Ripple]

my opponents are pretty much Aku

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Umbreon I regret that I have only one like to give that post.

@ CORY I haven't seen any ganons using some of his best tricks yet, like hover right before landing -> delayed uair.

 

[Phan7om]

if you jump against me, i will kill you for it.

better to think twice about forfeiting most of your defensive options in the name of mediocre/risky pressure imo

Couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Actually ironic. The advice I give most often to new players is "jump less".

Kirby should basically never jump in neutral, but in those punishes hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg.

Anyway yeah, Jesus you guys this is a deep game. It's sorta terrifying that I know far more about bowser than anybody, and I know nothing about Bowser. How in the hell is the PMDT supposed to balance this mess

 

[FreeGamer]

So basically more of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYN7mTi6HM

I can only see myself getting punished and killed by anyone who knows how to count. D:

 

[DMG]

what? nair comes out frame 5, and uair is frame 6

He added jump squat to his Smashboards leapt like 1 hour ahead of what I was reading. I feel really dumb now, oops

 

[Soft Serve]

Actually ironic. The advice I give most often to new players is "jump less".

Kirby should basically never jump in neutral, but in those punishes hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg.

Anyway yeah, Jesus you guys this is a deep game. It's sorta terrifying that I know far more about bowser than anybody, and I know nothing about Bowser. How in the hell is the PMDT supposed to balance this mess

Right? These characters have so much depth and un optimized aspects that ballance will be so hard. I keep detailed notes for myself on every MU, and I find that going back to my notes after I realize how to apply one or two of my tools better completely changes how I see the mu and it's ratio. At least for diddy, I only have a handful of characters that I know for certain body him/he wins vs. Then for like ~25 characters in the cast my opinions change all the time as I play/read/study more about those characters. Doesn't help that a lot of characters are critically under played, how do we learn the luigi/diddy mu or diddy/ics when there's only a few great players of each and thry rarely play? (Texas has a good luigi but last I checked I couldn't find a video of luck vs him)

The game is crazy deep and the only think I'm sure of anymore is fox is stupid still. I agree with Umbreon thay even at my level of bad, I'm better off just playing my melee fox in pm game 1. litterally the worst that could happen is I play a slightly disadvantaged mu that's completely stage dependent.

 

[DMG]

This thread would be fine if people stopped memeposting or posting one-liners that contribute nothing like DMG. How do these people make such useless posts in here without getting a warning is beyond me.

Because I contribute far more than enough meaningful essays on characters that I get awesome free passes for being 2legit.

50 nerd post with 3000 words explaining why Sonic really is lame, and why Zelda is a cactus fortress, and then a couple that are sillier. In the words of Obama: "Can I live?"

More Ganon talk:

Ganon Upb OOS is OK, I would not call that amazing by any real definition. There's a lot of stuff that will be safe on Ganon's shield, either frame wise or spacing wise. Upb does not change this. In fact, I'd venture that Aerial Side B OOS may be totally better in some instances where both shield grab and Upb OOS would miss. Mario Dsmash is a prime example: eat the front hit with shield, hold up on c-stick, and prepare the slaughter house cause Papa Ganon is about to layeth the smackdown. Get decent punishes on Fox Usmash probably too.


Main problem with this is the startup needed for it to work obv. Still, Ganon is pretty meh at dealing with shield pressure. More capable than Melee Ganon, but there's still quite a bit you have to respect and Ganon's not the kind of dude to grant anyone respect.

 

[FreeGamer]

Ganon's D-Throw makes me jealous. Imagine how many tier spots some characters would jump if they had that ****. :O

 

[CORY]

DMG summed up upb OOS. It's a frame 10 grab with horrendous lag on whiff. It has niche uses, especially when the opponent is deciding to flagrantly disrespect your OOS options as opposed to just normally disrespecting them, but it's more of a "use this once a set, maybe once a game if you can force them to bad situations" tool than anything.

Aerial flamechoke OOS isn't that good for except for very specific circumstances, namely ganon, marth, Roy, etc... Fsmashes. It's not active until, like, frame 21 with perfect execution, so it's far from an ideal punish.

Float usage is DEFINITELY underutilized and way unoptimized. I think I use float more than most and I know I'm still not using it properly (I primarily like using it for timing mixups if I ever gain momentum in the match).

The other unoptimized part of his punish game that's actually really easy to fix is aerial flamechoke follow ups. I've been working on fine tuning your guaranteed options on characters and threw my raw data out in the ganon boards and people will still just go automatically for jabs on Mario and **** when you can basically guarantee dtilts on him and stuff, for example.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ CORY I recommend experimenting with using the B-reverse float as a neutral bait option. You get to jump in and threaten something big, then retreat and possibly throw out a very safe bair.

EDIT: looks like you can just baaaaaarely autocancel it if you time the float perfectly out of your shorthop.

we puff now

 

[CORY]

Since I get confused by this term in lgy still: is breverse the one where you swap horizontal momentum?

 

[Phan7om]

Since I get confused by this term in lgy still: is breverse the one where you swap horizontal momentum?

Mhmm

 

[Warzenschwein]

Had to correct someone on le reddit again.

He mistook a Wavebounce for a B-Reversal and got 8 upvotes.. 8 UPVOTES

OH THE HUMANITY

 

[Phan7om]

Had to correct someone on le reddit again.

He mistook a Wavebounce for a B-Reversal and got 8 upvotes.. 8 UPVOTES

OH THE HUMANITY

It definitely happens more times than it should

 

[Ripple]

have you seen the people try to explain grab armor?

like, people try to dumb it down so much that it becomes incredibly wrong

 

[CORY]

I just can't ever remember the difference between them for more than a week. Reverse b, b reverse, wave bounce.

May as well all be white people, man. I can't tell them apart...

 

[Foo]

@ CORY I recommend experimenting with using the B-reverse float as a neutral bait option. You get to jump in and threaten something big, then retreat and possibly throw out a very safe bair.

EDIT: looks like you can just baaaaaarely autocancel it if you time the float perfectly out of your shorthop.

we puff now

Run away wavebounce bairs might also be good.

Also @ CORY Ganon's oos isn't amazing or anything, but upair and nair are still pretty good and up-b oos, while you won't use it too often, it's still great to have. When you do use it's 18% and it basically just prevents opponents from crossing up your shields with dash attacks or relatively unsafe aerials. Flame choke oos is pretty bad though lawl. Only useful against swordy fsmash I'd say.

Overall, I'd put ganon's oos at somewhere above average. He doesn't have an insane frame 3 nair on a 3 frame jumpsquat or anything, but it's still pretty solid.

@Umbreon Usually I disagree with at least one of the things you say, but you nailed it with that last post.

 

[CORY]

His lack of any appreciable grab range kinda hurts a lot, in terms of OOS options. Nair and uair are good, though. Especially uair since it hits lowish rather early, and that's the biggest issue he has oos (IMO).

Upb OOS is still really a niche thing, though. The risk is huge and the reward varies wildly.

(Been typing all this stuff from my phone, so sorry if my thoughts are kinda vague and incomplete)

 

[Magus420]

The risk of missing doesn't apply if using it as a punish though. It's Marth's grab reach on both sides of the shield if you maximize the drift during startup. It's not useful for aerials other than when they hit high/cross up, but most ground moves can be grabbed by it, including stuff like spaced/back of shield Foxco's u-tilts and Sheik's f-tilt. There's a fair amount of stuff that characters can't WD OoS for but he can up-b. It's useful in melee where it has significantly more startup since it still serves that purpose.

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

I thought we were speculating tier lists. nevermind!

however if we are then i think the best charcters in the game are ganon and ike.

 

[eideeiit]

I thought we were speculating tier lists. nevermind!

however if we are then i think the best charcters in the game are ganon and ike.

Please elaborate.
Kinda big time.
Actually you'll need to have an explanation similar to the theory of relativity or something.
Actually no explanations will be enough.
We'll have to organize a trial.
Anyone have any experience as a judge?
I'd volunteer but I wouldn't be able to remain unbiased.

Because what the ****ing **** strippers is this mother****ing ass junkie diarrhea poop?

I'm sorry

But

You are wrong.

 

[DMG]

See this guy gets it. He put strippers and diarrhea in the same post! I am not worthy of his guidance, I now possess great sorrow. I am like more worthless than Olimar right now, its incredible

 

[CORY]

The risk of missing doesn't apply if using it as a punish though. It's Marth's grab reach on both sides of the shield if you maximize the drift during startup. It's not useful for aerials other than when they hit high/cross up, but most ground moves can be grabbed by it, including stuff like spaced/back of shield Foxco's u-tilts and Sheik's f-tilt. There's a fair amount of stuff that characters can't WD OoS for but he can up-b. It's useful in melee where it has significantly more startup since it still serves that purpose.

how does it cover forward/behind at the same time? or am i misunderstanding your statement? (not that that's necessarily that important of an option, since there aren't too many ambiguous crossups in smash, especially non-aerial, which is what you were focusing on there).

 

[Life]

how does it cover forward/behind at the same time? or am i misunderstanding your statement? (not that that's necessarily that important of an option, since there aren't too many ambiguous crossups in smash, especially non-aerial, which is what you were focusing on there).

b-reverse upB

 

[CORY]

that doesn't cover both at the same time. that lets you decide to cover behind you rather than in front of you.

and i think i'm sounding like i'm trying to argue semantics with magus, so i'm just clarifying that i'm not. if i'm misunderstanding him, cool. if not, i'd like to know how to option select for the ability to cover both in front of and behind me at once with an upb oos.

 

[Player -0]

Also starting from the ground is baller because you fly upwards really fast.

...

That sounded dumb but it's awesome. Jank platform mindgames ftw.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, I meant that is where the move can reach not that it does both sides at the same time. Since you choose the direction on the frame it comes out though (even later than b-reverse moves) you have the entirety of the startup to figure out which side you need after the characters have had more time to separate.

 

[Idostuff]

i recall you saying its bowsers best matchup, my b

anyway yea ganon is ****ing easy lmao

perfect combo weight, approach options get stuffed by pivot grab, has super slow options of getting pikmin off him etc

i just cant see ganon winning all that many matchups

My roommate mains Olimar, and i main Ganon. While we are far from top tier players, i can say with absolute confidence that Olimar beats Ganon. Also i think that if they gave Oli a new recovery, and nothing else, that he would instantly shoot to upper-mid tier.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

What would you guys put Gw in the tier list? I honestly would say mid mid tier