Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

To your first part, maybe it's not because of how over powered they are, but how jank or how they have a playstyle that the PMDT doesn't want to encourage? And no fox is not better or as good as (imo he's slightly under) than 3.0 pit or mewtwo lol, you have to be kidding yourself when you say that.

I do not see why fox is so different to any other character that gets nerfed. that's not delusion or whatever you feel like using to describe everyone you dislike as less logical than you, that's a relatively basic understanding of his kit. he has safe options from nearly every point in time in neutral, he holds the ability to mix up and force pressure in ways few other characters are close to, he has a fantastic dash dance that most could only dream of, and he has an instant "get off me" move that can be wavedashed out of, thus ensuring there's no way to punish it...

so, let's take a gander at PM, in its current form. I have no doubts in my mind that, come 4.0, ROB, roy, and lucario will receive significant changes due to their strengths. what somehow makes their strong tools so special that it's different?

 

[PlateProp]

The fact that spacies have to deal with insane risk/reward gameplay prevents them from just being insane like they are in theory.
Really tl;dr version but why make a post on why I feel this when someone's just gonna argue semantics about my older post or something of the sort. Just gotta get these responses out quick

also reminder that I might incorrectly post things or not be able to catch up since itsl ike 5 ppl vs 1 and this thread moves super fast since all of us are online at once

High risk/reward for fox doesnt really matter when the risk/reward is pretty much the same for each character fighting fox

 

[[OCK]LLama]

I do not see why fox is so different to any other character that gets nerfed. that's not delusion or whatever you feel like using to describe everyone you dislike as less logical than you, that's a relatively basic understanding of his kit. he has safe options from nearly every point in time in neutral, he holds the ability to mix up and force pressure in ways few other characters are close to, he has a fantastic dash dance that most could only dream of, and he has an instant "get off me" move that can be wavedashed out of, thus ensuring there's no way to punish it...

so, let's take a gander at PM, in its current form. I have no doubts in my mind that, come 4.0, ROB, roy, and lucario will receive significant changes due to their strengths. what somehow makes their strong tools so special that it's different?

"instant "get off me" move that can be wavedashed out of, thus ensuring there's no way to punish it..." why are you invading a characters hurtbox that has this type of move while he's not in hitstun, that's such a bad commitment to make, also wavedashes can be read.

 

[trash?]

you mean the instantaneous form of movement that allows you to act out of it as soon as the incredibly-tiny landing lag ends, meaning you can immediately throw out other ground moves, including another shine?

why is that more tolerable than, say, roy's dtilt? what makes such a great move so above changes, when other characters can always be brought up with little resistance? why is the concept of "either everyone else gets to be as good as fox, or fox is only allowed to be as good as everyone else" so widely met with hostility, when any other character could be discussed with ease?

 

[4tlas]

What are the actual nerfs of Fox from NTSC Melee? All I know of are laser decay, PAL upsmash, and no invincibility on shine. I don't really see how those are a big deal. Maybe he could also afford to lose some damage on his aerials, then do a lot of damage for such a fast moving character with fast moves and a good shffl.

There will always be a best character. But it is possible that we won't know who that is if balance is good enough. For example, if we could get a consensus that says Fox is in the top 5 but nobody agrees on where, that would be decently balanced. But if we can get a consensus that he is the best character, doesn't that mean that he's too good and can afford to be nerfed?

The end goal, after the meta has settled, is for as many characters as possible to be tied, with the smallest gaps between tiers. When we can clearly agree so quickly that one character is better than the rest, that is clearly too powerful, regardless of how much better he is.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

High risk/reward doesnt really matter when the risk/reward is pretty much the same for each character fighting fox

How does it not matter? If every character can make it high risk for him, then isn't that a good thing?

you mean the instantaneous form of movement that allows you to act out of it as soon as the incredibly-tiny landing lag ends, meaning you can immediately throw out other ground moves, including another shine?

I feel like you're digging yourself into a hole, here.

the thing is tha your portraying shine as the perfect move here, which is clearly not the case, as there arep lenty of moves that can beat out the small punish window and disjoints can also deal with although with some risk, but that's part of playing the neutral game vs fox

btw like I said before I don't think any char is really worth nerfing ever since 3.02, so I'm just defending Fox and every other char, aside from playstyle fixes or jank fixes I don't see any reason for big balance changes. I'm not one of those people who will make spacies a holy lamb because "muh melee".

What are the actual nerfs of Fox from NTSC Melee? All I know of are laser decay, PAL upsmash, and no invincibility on shine. I don't really see how those are a big deal. Maybe he could also afford to lose some damage on his aerials, then do a lot of damage for such a fast moving character with fast moves and a good shffl.

There will always be a best character. But it is possible that we won't know who that is if balance is good enough. For example, if we could get a consensus that says Fox is in the top 5 but nobody agrees on where, that would be decently balanced. But if we can get a consensus that he is the best character, doesn't that mean that he's too good and can afford to be nerfed?

The end goal, after the meta has settled, is for as many characters as possible to be tied, with the smallest gaps between tiers. When we can clearly agree so quickly that one character is better than the rest, that is clearly too powerful, regardless of how much better he is.

We cab clearly agree? Lol, m2k is over here ranting about how Ike is the next Pitt and you really think there's a connect between everybody right now?

We have YEARS of meta of fox, he's clearly going to look the best compared to some chars that literally just got reinvented or chars that haven't even been picked up that well.

Also, if that mentality applied, Sheik would still be the best in melee, and obviously GW bucket is OP in brawl right?

While initial results can be good views for a future, it's just so hard to tell when we've had stuff like Sheik falling under spacies and iirc even Marth one time (correct if wrong) in Melee, a static game. And especially when PM is such a special case. Also iirc the PMDT said they were going to focus on toning down the Melee characters next update, but all I remember hearing is something about Marth fthrow, which makes me annoyed that they'll probably end up nerfing the wrong things from melee lol

 

[JustSomeScrub]

So now your argument has literally become "because solo Fox does not win literally every tournament ever he's a fair character".

I'm not even going to begin to describe how absurd and wrong this statement is and instead ask you something. Did you know MK did not win every Brawl major or even close to it? Do you consider Brawl MK to be a fair character as well?

As for Marth, he has two players that can consistently make top 8s at majors while utilizing him and maybe 3 in total. Look at the major tournaments and count the number of Marths compared to Foxes in top 8s. Fox wins by a landslide.

More importantly your initial argument was that people have adapted to Fox which in turn means he should be less successful. But he's more successful now, not less. You said it yourself, he never even used to win majors as he does all the time now. If he's more successful now than in the past, this means he's more dominant in the meta. Which means people have not adapted to him at all.

M2K/Armada were doing big punishes on spacies ages ago, it's not a new phenomenon and it clearly has not stopped him and Falco from being a humongous oversaturating part of the Melee meta even at the highest level. In fact an SSS before Apex M2K actually lost to 2 Fox players and Armada has switched to Fox himself.

So when people say people will adapt to spacies as they did in Melee it's laughable. Nearly ever top Melee player uses the spacies to some extent and they absolutely are a huge part of nearly all top 8s at majors.

 

[PlateProp]

How does it not matter? If every character can make it high risk for him, then isn't that a good thing?

the thing is tha your portraying shine as the perfect move here, which is clearly not the case, as there arep lenty of moves that can beat out the small punish window and disjoints can also deal with although with some risk, but that's part of playing the neutral game vs fox

btw like I said before I don't think any char is really worth nerfing ever since 3.02, so I'm just defending Fox and every other char, aside from playstyle fixes or jank fixes I don't see any reason for big balance changes. I'm not one of those people who will make spacies a holy lamb because "muh melee".

We cab clearly agree? Lol, m2k is over here ranting about how Ike is the next Pitt and you really think there's a connect between everybody right now?

We have YEARS of meta of fox, he's clearly going to look the best compared to some chars that literally just got reinvented or chars that haven't even been picked up that well.

Also, if that mentality applied, Sheik would still be the best in melee, and obviously GW bucket is OP in brawl right?

While initial results can be good views for a future, it's just so hard to tell when we've had stuff like Sheik falling under spacies and iirc even Marth one time (correct if wrong) in Melee, a static game. And especially when PM is such a special case. Also iirc the PMDT said they were going to focus on toning down the Melee characters next update, but all I remember hearing is something about Marth fthrow, which makes me annoyed that they'll probably end up nerfing the wrong things from melee lol

Read the edit foo

 

[trash?]

I would be... less annoyed by these arguments if it was fully understood that the space animals are centralizing in melee. I'm offended that even needs to be argued at all, actually, because anyone that understands how melee works at its core knows this (and might even enjoy that, as a centralized metagame tends to focus more on the nuances of options, compared to a diverse metagame which heavily emphasizes options on a larger scale)

fox and falco are very much a major core of melee. there being ways of checking him like marth on fd proves that harder than it disproves it, because the fact that marth is so major vs. spacies is a direct result of spacies being fantastic. this is a centralized meta's very core function: a character is amazing, people find ways of checking it, so those checks are similarly great as a result

 

[InfinityCollision]

2/10 would not read the last couple pages again. Maybe the bit about Ganon being top 5/3, because holy **** that is bold.

Yoshi's kinda fallen off this thread's radar of late. Lack of results, genuine mid tier, sleeper hit?

 

[[OCK]LLama]

So now your argument has literally become "because solo Fox does not win literally every tournament ever he's a fair character".

I am amazed at your simply marvelous work at strawmanning

'm not even going to begin to describe how absurd and wrong this statement is and instead ask you something. Did you know MK did not win every Brawl major or even close to it? Do you consider Brawl MK to be a fair character as well?

see above statement

As for Marth, he has two players that can consistently make top 8s at majors while utilizing him and maybe 3 in total. Look at the major tournaments and count the number of Marths compared to Foxes in top 8s. Fox wins by a landslide.

see above statement

More importantly your initial argument was that people have adapted to Fox which in turn means he should be less successful. But he's more successful now, not less. You said it yourself, he never even used to win majors as he does all the time now. If he's more successful now than in the past, this means he's more dominant in the meta. Which means people have not adapted to him at all.

I never said adapting to fox makes him less successful, I said that it would make him seem less overpowered in the eyes of the majority

M2K/Armada were doing big punishes on spacies ages ago, it's not a new phenomenon and it clearly has not stopped him and Falco from being a humongous oversaturating part of the Melee meta even at the highest level. In fact an SSS before Apex M2K actually lost to 2 Fox players and Armada has switched to Fox himself.

If you do know anything about Armada you know how often he complains about Peach losing to Fox and how strong spacies are when in fact he's been winning vs Foxes and Falco hates peach. The dude has a strong spacies bias, same thing with Hax. Except with Hax it's gotten to the point where his and Mang0's talks just turn into him defending falcon and hax saying how it's impossible to play this game without a shine.

And mew2king has been having hand issues for quite a long time now, not only this but he's focusing on 3 games at once, and he was sick at apex and he hasn't been seen practicing 1.0.2 melee on stream or off stream in the longest time. BUt no, those are clearly johns and those 2 fox mains just won because fox is so damn good right?

So when people say people will adapt to spacies as they did in Melee it's laughable. Nearly ever top Melee player uses the spacies to some extent and they absolutely are a huge part of nearly all top 8s at majors.

Yes because fox having a 12 year meta lead is totally not a reason to reconsider quick thinking of lowmid level players that happen in the first months of an update about nerfing Fox[/quote][/quote]

 

[PlateProp]

2/10 would not read the last couple pages again. Maybe the bit about Ganon being top 5/3, because holy **** that is bold.

Yoshi's kinda fallen off this thread's radar of late. Lack of results, genuine mid tier, sleeper hit?

Maybe everyone is starting to realize that everyone is still dumb

 

[[OCK]LLama]

I would be... less annoyed by these arguments if it was fully understood that the space animals are centralizing in melee. I'm offended that even needs to be argued at all, actually, because anyone that understands how melee works at its core knows this (and might even enjoy that, as a centralized metagame tends to focus more on the nuances of options, compared to a diverse metagame which heavily emphasizes options on a larger scale)

fox and falco are very much a major core of melee. there being ways of checking him like marth on fd proves that harder than it disproves it, because the fact that marth is so major vs. spacies is a direct result of spacies being fantastic. this is a centralized meta's very core function: a character is amazing, people find ways of checking it, so those checks are similarly great as a result

Oh it's not like I've said over centralizing like 5 or 7 times now idk

 

[4tlas]

We cab clearly agree? Lol, m2k is over here ranting about how Ike is the next Pitt and you really think there's a connect between everybody right now?

We have YEARS of meta of fox, he's clearly going to look the best compared to some chars that literally just got reinvented or chars that haven't even been picked up that well.

Also, if that mentality applied, Sheik would still be the best in melee, and obviously GW bucket is OP in brawl right?

While initial results can be good views for a future, it's just so hard to tell when we've had stuff like Sheik falling under spacies and iirc even Marth one time (correct if wrong) in Melee, a static game. And especially when PM is such a special case. Also iirc the PMDT said they were going to focus on toning down the Melee characters next update, but all I remember hearing is something about Marth fthrow, which makes me annoyed that they'll probably end up nerfing the wrong things from melee lol

While you are correct that rankings will change as the meta progresses, and perhaps Fox is not actually the most powerful character, there is a general consensus in this thread (the Tier List Speculation thread) that Fox is the most powerful character. That means he is at least in the upper half of the cast, right? Perhaps even top 5 for sure? Then he can be nerfed to be more in line with the rest of the cast.

I'm not talking about bringing him to mid tier. I'm not talking about making him not top tier, even. All I'm suggesting is that if you want to bring the cast into balance, you have to buff the weak characters and/or nerf the strong ones. And Fox is clearly "a strong one", AT LEAST.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

"I never said adapting to fox makes him less successful"

"No, if people adapted to Fox, he wouldn't be winning all the tournaments by himself. "

 

[[OCK]LLama]

While you are correct that rankings will change as the meta progresses, and perhaps Fox is not actually the most powerful character, there is a general consensus in this thread (the Tier List Speculation thread) that Fox is the most powerful character. That means he is at least in the upper half of the cast, right? Perhaps even top 5 for sure? Then he can be nerfed to be more in line with the rest of the cast.

I'm not talking about bringing him to mid tier. I'm not talking about making him not top tier, even. All I'm suggesting is that if you want to bring the cast into balance, you have to buff the weak characters and/or nerf the strong ones. And Fox is clearly "a strong one", AT LEAST.

I don't see this big fad of nerfing just STRONG characters over only reserving nerfs for JANK/OP chars, while I agree fox is clearly the best for sure in 3.5 imo.

I can understand where your argument comes from if you see nerfing as a way to balance via nerfing strong characters and not just straight up OP chars. We have a different vision of balance and mine is probably clearly less accepted than yours, I respect that and I hope no hard feelings

What I do get frustrated at is when people completely skip over or strawman entire lines of mine just for the sake of the argument :/

 

[Hylian]

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

 

[4tlas]

I don't see this big fad of nerfing just STRONG characters over only reserving nerfs for JANK/OP chars, while I agree fox is clearly the best for sure in 3.5 imo.

I can understand where your argument comes from if you see nerfing as a way to balance via nerfing strong characters and not just straight up OP chars. We have a different vision of balance and mine is probably clearly less accepted than yours, I respect that and I hope no hard feelings

What I do get frustrated at is when people completely skip over or strawman entire lines of mine just for the sake of the argument :/

Well I have no hard feelings because you have made no personal attacks against me and only said things moderately aggressively. I hope you feel similarly.

To be perfectly fair, while the other poster may have been strawmanning, I believe you've been moving the goalposts for awhile. Normally I don't bother calling those things out because I don't need to point them out, but it only feels appropriate because you did it to him. I find noting the fallacy myself and adjusting my view of the argument to take it into account is a perfectly acceptable way to handle such things.

Perhaps I've just been misunderstanding you, and you haven't been moving goalposts. I apologize in advance.

 

[trash?]

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

perhaps even the slightest hint of consistency from your changelogs would solve that.

this is a problem caused by the dev team, I hope you know, because if nothing was truly sacred as the PMDT seem to imply constantly, this would never be an argument. as of right now, I don't see a reason for an average player to not choose fox, because other characters will lose any tech we learn of now, and fox won't, I don't hold a heavy argument beyond this

 

[Hylian]

perhaps even the slightest hint of consistency from your changelogs would solve that.

this is a problem caused by the dev team, I hope you know. if nothing was truly sacred as the PMDT seem to imply constantly, this would never be an argument

This has nothing to do with the dev team. This happens in many games with changes. This is exactly the kind of thing that is annoying though, the sense of entitlement is insane from PM players and I don't really understand or enjoy it.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Every-time actual evidence/results are brought up you just go "well it's the players not the character". Okay fine, now let me apply this logic everywhere else:

The success of 3.02 Mewtwo, Lucas, Pit, Diddy etc. were the results of the players not the characters. So why were they nerfed?

And your response will probably be "those characters were all broken and deserved the nerfs". Okay so what about Fox then? He was also very successful at the time.

"Nah Fox was only winning because great players were using him and his meta had been pushed".

This is the absurd double standard of Melee fanatics I'm talking about.

You say Brawl characters can catch up but when they do catch up, instead of acknowledging it or stating both them AND Fox should be nerfed, you'll just say the characters are broken and need to be nerfed ASAP but anybody that wins with Fox earned it.

 

[trash?]

This has nothing to do with the dev team. This happens in many games with changes. This is exactly the kind of thing that is annoying though, the sense of entitlement is insane from PM players and I don't really understand or enjoy it.

"entitlement" assumes I'm somehow begging for you to do something or I can't play again. I'm pointing out a very, very obvious flaw in your metagame, and how you deal with that is up to you.

I hope you don't view most critique with your mindset, otherwise you'd live a pretty poor life

 

[4tlas]

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

I have not encountered this problem when talking with people in real life because there is so much more to talk about. When discussing something on a forum, isn't the objective usually to debate something? Most people don't "disagree" about strategies, techniques, and what they find fun in the game. They know those are all personal decisions. But people can look at the game and think that there are facts worth arguing about, and those are things like the meta, rulesets, and patchable things.

Solution: talk with your local PM community more! =)

 

[Strong Badam]

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

I don't agree with the first sentence but the rest of it is pretty accurate for me. I come into this thread hoping to talk about the metagame, discuss what characters are potent, and theorize about which characters have really good matchup spreads, but the past few pages has been a conversation I've had too many times and frankly it's really old.
Too many people want to talk about how the game should be instead of figuring out how to play it as-is. PM ain't perfect, but I love it as it is and want to continue to get better at playing it. This thread hasn't been very helpful in that endeavor lately.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

This has nothing to do with the dev team. This happens in many games with changes. This is exactly the kind of thing that is annoying though, the sense of entitlement is insane from PM players and I don't really understand or enjoy it.

Pointing out obvious flaws and double standards for a game is entitlement now? I think you've missed the point completely.

We are saying as of now there is little reason for newcomers to pick up Brawl characters because history are shown they are prone to drastic nerfs and changes whereas the Melee top tiers are mostly left alone.

Things that would be considered broken if the PMDT introduced them are given free reign on Melee characters.

 

[trash?]

Too many people want to talk about how the game should be instead of figuring out how to play it as-is.

as a player, I have no need to. why bother learning a character, if he might then become "too good" and changed up as a result? I have a slot here on the character select screen that reads "fox", and historically, I am guaranteed that if I place my cursor on him, my intended playstyle and strengths will budge very rarely, and in small increments. if I intend to play for long-term gain, what reason do I have to not pick him? certainly, even in the worst case scenario, I still end up like I would if I picked any other good character.

you blame the community for this, as if this is not a solid metagame decision, as if people are not rewarded for sticking as close as possible to melee's veteran characters, while others breaking new ground are punished if it's not breaking new ground in the right way. people play to win, as it turns out.

 

[jtm94]

You really think Bowser's ftilt does anything against Sonic? The only moves fast enough to hit him are jab and UpB.
I really don't see how Sonic loses to any character that can't keep up with his movement aka everyone but MK, Fox, Falcon. I'm not saying he doesn't have losing MUs, but his speed makes them at worst 45:55 and I think you can solo main Sonic in this current meta.

 

[Life]

^Should point out this guy's training partner is a pretty decent Sonic main, you should probably listen to him.

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

That's because when the game is still in flux, people who are already emotionally invested in the game want to make it as good as possible. PM is AWESOME. I picked up Pit back in like 2.1, and just glided everywhere like an idiot, and started giggling because it was so fun.

I intend to play PM for a long time. I feel that that time would be even more enjoyable if a handful of characters (mostly Fox and Sheik) were slightly weaker. Why would I not say as much?

 

[PlateProp]

Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.

The fact that melee characters largely get what amounts to a free pass from changes actually KILLS my passion for pm a lot. I know there are several times where i'm thinking about not playing pm competitively anymore because it just seems like no characters but melee characters will ever be allowed to stand at the top. I love this game, it's practically all I play. I go crazy if I dont play for more than a day. But I dont see the point if it's just always gonna be Melee 2 and Friends :/

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I don't agree with the first sentence but the rest of it is pretty accurate for me. I come into this thread hoping to talk about the metagame, discuss what characters are potent, and theorize about which characters have really good matchup spreads, but the past few pages has been a conversation I've had too many times and frankly it's really old.
Too many people want to talk about how the game should be instead of figuring out how to play it as-is. PM ain't perfect, but I love it as it is and want to continue to get better at playing it. This thread hasn't been very helpful in that endeavor lately.

Why should people discuss new strategies and tech when there's a good chance if it's deemed too successful the offending new characters will be nerfed to the ground anyway. Historically this is the way you guys have done things. Every time people start showing great success with Brawl characters for instance, either gradually or at once they get major nerfs.

When I started with PM around 6 months ago I was excited about potentially advancing the meta for underdeveloped characters and so forth. But then I looked at its history and realized this pretty much never pays off in the long run. On the other hand Melee characters were largely left alone while having things that were deemed too good on Brawl characters. So I decided to just use Sheik and Fox instead.

And I know I'm not alone. Locally most players I've seen in PM both casually and competitively tend to stick to Melee characters. This also means there often isn't much new ground breaking tech to discuss as there could be.

As of right now I do believe there's plenty of extremely viable Brawl characters in PM but how long will this last? I'm already expecting Lucario and Ike to get major nerfs by the next (balance) patch.

 

[DMG]

@Odds_ You're like partially right about Ganon, but he's not that capable of a character. He has to play Neutral with the cast, and there's only so far you can take his kit with that kind of mobility. In the same time frame that Ganon players maximize punishes, other chars can maximize their neutral vs Ganon and it probably would equalize out a bit. Best PM Ganon was Vex without any doubt, should look up his old vids before Ganon had the float cause he's still way ahead of most people trying to improve Ganon. He's the only Ganondorf that made DACUS a legit and consistent follow up, and he was one of the first to be aware of and strongly use Dthrow into aerial Side B setups (may not be as good anymore since I'm pretty sure his Dthrow keeps getting increased KBG over patch history)

He's a capable character, but he's not dominant enough. No shine, no great projectile, no crazy grab range, a doable recovery but not crazy safe (tricky is the word that comes to mind), etc. You have to be a dominant / more capable character to be top 5, or even top 10 in PM imo.


Also damn we beat this Fox horse to death. This conversation was like a M2K FD CP: Fox just got obliterated.

 

[Hylian]

"entitlement" assumes I'm somehow begging for you to do something or I can't play again. I'm pointing out a very, very obvious flaw in your metagame, and how you deal with that is up to you.

I hope you don't view most critique with your mindset, otherwise you'd live a pretty poor life

That...isn't what entitlement means at all or anywhere close to the context I intended it to be used in.

It's not "my" or "our" metagame. We don't make the metagame, we make the game. There is a huge, stark difference. The metagame is developed by the players. Is it influenced by changes? Obviously. It is not sculpted out to fit some picture we have in our head of exactly how match-ups should play out..that sort of thing isn't even really possible. People just feel entitled to changes to whatever characters they like or dislike and like talking about that more than actually figuring the game out. I think a lot of people if randomly put into the PMDT who are opinionated about things like this would end up feeling pretty silly about how little they actually know and how hard this sort of thing is.

Pointing out obvious flaws and double standards for a game is entitlement now? I think you've missed the point completely.

We are saying as of now there is little reason for newcomers to pick up Brawl characters because history are shown they are prone to drastic nerfs and changes whereas the Melee top tiers are mostly left alone.

Things that would be considered broken if the PMDT introduced them are given free reign on Melee characters.

No, you've missed the point completely. There is nothing wrong with providing feedback, we get feedback all the time and it is a valuable source of information and testing for our game. My post wasn't even in correlation with the previous posts on this page...I hardly read them. It was more of a general statement about the community based on my interactions with them over time..which has been quite a long time. I understand exactly what has been said on this page even just skimming through it, as I've seen this conversation about twenty times now spanning over like three years.

as a player, I have no need to. why bother learning a character, if he might then become "too good" and changed up as a result? I have a slot here on the character select screen that reads "fox", and historically, I am guaranteed that if I place my cursor on him, my intended playstyle and strengths will budge very rarely, and in small increments. if I intend to play for long-term gain, what reason do I have to not pick him? certainly, even in the worst case scenario, I still end up like I would if I picked any other good character.

you blame the community for this, as if this is not a solid metagame decision, as if people are not rewarded for sticking as close as possible to melee's veteran characters, while others breaking new ground are punished if it's not breaking new ground in the right way. people play to win, as it turns out.

You, as a player, have the right to express your free will when picking a character. If you feel the need to play the best character simply because he is the best and not because you enjoy him then that is your choice, not a result of the game. There are plenty of games that have constant changes where people analyze and push the metagame of everything. They do this because they love the game, and want to be as good at it and understand it as much as possible. They realize there isn't this magical metagame mecha where everything is balanced and there exists nothing dumb. I mean ****, I played fox in melee since 2003. Do I use him in PM?...no. I played link..because I found link fun. After I explored and pushed links metagame I switched to lucario..because I found him fun. I then switched to IC's..because I love the character dynamic and uniqueness, and want to explore their options more since they are underused. These things all bring me great enjoyment playing PM. I don't feel compelled to just go fox even though I am very good with him and have more experience with the character than a lot of people..because I care about more than just winning or always picking something optimal. I'm not even hating about caring about winning, I think it's great if you have that drive. Generally though players who show passion/enjoyment in the characters they play are more successful than those who just pick a top tier instantly. Ultra street fighter is a great example of this.

I blame the community for nothing. Please point out me blaming anyone for anything. I said I don't enjoy the community's approach to discussion on the game as much as I do melee's community. As someone who has been a long time member of almost every smash community I don't feel bad or biased in the slightest saying that. I enjoy seeing people passionately improving themselves and their characters(shoutouts to odds and similar posters). I don't hold any authority or right over someone complaining about characters, I just find it...childish almost. Like bickering rather than finding a solution to a problem. People act like the PMDT has no idea what they do or don't like about the game even though the PMDT is built from the community itself.

^Should point out this guy's training partner is a pretty decent Sonic main, you should probably listen to him.


That's because when the game is still in flux, people who are already emotionally invested in the game want to make it as good as possible. PM is AWESOME. I picked up Pit back in like 2.1, and just glided everywhere like an idiot, and started giggling because it was so fun.

I intend to play PM for a long time. I feel that that time would be even more enjoyable if a handful of characters (mostly Fox and Sheik) were slightly weaker. Why would I not say as much?

There is nothing wrong with you saying as much. Again, not my point. It's the fact that you(or others, not specifically you) feel compelled to talk about other characters being nerfed more than trying to the advance the metagame of your own. It's the tier list speculation thread...not the balance changes thread.

 

[DMG]

New tier list:

S tier:

Hylian
Hylian's posts


F tier:

Hylian's ugly green text color
Xyro's ugly lime text color
Jeggings on Men

 

[Hylian]

Project M is an incredibly well balanced game. As someone who has competed at a high level in many competitive games(in all sorts of genres), I find it hysterical that people feel they have to pick a melee character to be successful, and that players aren't willing to learn changes to their own character in patches. Sure, some characters might do better without secondaries than others, but you can pretty much just pick two characters in this game and be set, and for the most part with just skill you can pick almost any character. There are very few unwinnable match-ups.

Of course, it's logical to not want changes to your characters, I mean even I want that. The animosity over characters who recieve few changes is pretty absurd to me though. I don't particularly think the Project M metagame is in an advanced enough state to even make a tier list honestly, which is why you haven't seen one from me this patch. There is so much unexplored stuff, so many things people aren't putting time into with various characters, so much stuff just taken for granted or glanced over...sorry but I don't buy it.

 

[Soft Serve]

2/10 would not read the last couple pages again. Maybe the bit about Ganon being top 5/3, because holy **** that is bold.

Yoshi's kinda fallen off this thread's radar of late. Lack of results, genuine mid tier, sleeper hit?

yeah I skipped the last two pages as well. Just ugh

Yoshi is really good, I think top 15ish. sheild effectively having 6 frames of start up is horrible though, because parry is busted which hold yoshi back a bit. Yoshi is sleeper god tier, in a more tangeble way than say, Luigi/squirtman are.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

That...isn't what entitlement means at all or anywhere close to the context I intended it to be used in.

It's not "my" or "our" metagame. We don't make the metagame, we make the game. There is a huge, stark difference. The metagame is developed by the players. Is it influenced by changes? Obviously. It is not sculpted out to fit some picture we have in our head of exactly how match-ups should play out..that sort of thing isn't even really possible. People just feel entitled to changes to whatever characters they like or dislike and like talking about that more than actually figuring the game out. I think a lot of people if randomly put into the PMDT who are opinionated about things like this would end up feeling pretty silly about how little they actually know and how hard this sort of thing is.



No, you've missed the point completely. There is nothing wrong with providing feedback, we get feedback all the time and it is a valuable source of information and testing for our game. My post wasn't even in correlation with the previous posts on this page...I hardly read them. It was more of a general statement about the community based on my interactions with them over time..which has been quite a long time. I understand exactly what has been said on this page even just skimming through it, as I've seen this conversation about twenty times now spanning over like three years.


You, as a player, have the right to express your free will when picking a character. If you feel the need to play the best character simply because he is the best and not because you enjoy him then that is your choice, not a result of the game. There are plenty of games that have constant changes where people analyze and push the metagame of everything. They do this because they love the game, and want to be as good at it and understand it as much as possible. They realize there isn't this magical metagame mecha where everything is balanced and there exists nothing dumb. I mean ****, I played fox in melee since 2003. Do I use him in PM?...no. I played link..because I found link fun. After I explored and pushed links metagame I switched to lucario..because I found him fun. I then switched to IC's..because I love the character dynamic and uniqueness, and want to explore their options more since they are underused. These things all bring me great enjoyment playing PM. I don't feel compelled to just go fox even though I am very good with him and have more experience with the character than a lot of people..because I care about more than just winning or always picking something optimal. I'm not even hating about caring about winning, I think it's great if you have that drive. Generally though players who show passion/enjoyment in the characters they play are more successful than those who just pick a top tier instantly. Ultra street fighter is a great example of this.

I blame the community for nothing. Please point out me blaming anyone for anything. I said I don't enjoy the community's approach to discussion on the game as much as I do melee's community. As someone who has been a long time member of almost every smash community I don't feel bad or biased in the slightest saying that. I enjoy seeing people passionately improving themselves and their characters(shoutouts to odds and similar posters). I don't hold any authority or right over someone complaining about characters, I just find it...childish almost. Like bickering rather than finding a solution to a problem. People act like the PMDT has no idea what they do or don't like about the game even though the PMDT is built from the community itself.




There is nothing with you saying as much. Again, not my point. It's the fact that you(or others, not specifically you) feel compelled to talk about other characters being nerfed more than trying to the advance the metagame of your own. It's the tier list speculation thread...not the balance changes thread.

Let me get this straight.

Instead of addressing the actual problem you've even acknowledged here your suggested solution is to...not care about tiers and just play for fun?

And then you guys wonder why people say the PMDT has Melee bias. Instead of I don't know, either buffing weaker characters or nerfing Fox your solution is literally "Well Fox is just going to be Fox so just get over it and go play someone else for the fun of it like I do".

A competitive game by nature means people are going to flock to the best characters. That's never going to change. So why not just lessen the gap and thus discourage over use instead of telling people to play other characters just because?

Ultra Street Fighter 4 has diversity because Capcom has done a ton of work into balancing the series several times not because of "passion". If they were like you and just said "well we know AE Yun or Vanilla Sagat are OP but you should play other characters anyway" make no mistake, they'd be overused just as Fox is.

 

[Hylian]

Let me get this straight.

Instead of addressing the actual problem you've even acknowledged here your suggested solution is to...not care about tiers and just play for fun?

And then you guys wonder why people say the PMDT has Melee bias. Instead of I don't know, either buffing weaker characters or nerfing Fox your solution is literally "Well Fox is just going to be Fox so just get over it and go play someone else for the fun of it like I do".

A competitive game by nature means people are going to flock to the best characters. That's never going to change. So why not just lessen the gap and thus discourage over use instead of telling people to play other characters just because?

Ultra Street Fighter 4 has diversity because Capcom has done a ton of work into balancing the series several times not because of "passion". If they were like you and just said "well we know AE Yun is broken but you should play other characters anyway" make no mistake, he'd be overused just as Fox is.

Whoosh.

Whoooooooooshhhhh.

No..no you've not got this straight at all.

Edit: I apologize for this incredibly snarky comment. I worked 13 hours today and am tired and irritable.

You do not understand my words..clearly. I am not saying we aren't making changes to characters because people should just play other characters anyways. This has nothing to do with us developing the game or balancing it, it has to do with the communities mindset towards balance and the competitive growth of the game in general.

 

[DMG]

I, for one, welcome our Fox overlord

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Then do a better job explaining.

"I don't feel compelled to just go fox even though I am very good with him and have more experience with the character than a lot of people..because I care about more than just winning or always picking something optimal. "

Here you are clearly implying Fox is optimal and winning = going Fox.

 

[Hylian]

Then do a better job explaining.

"I don't feel compelled to just go fox even though I am very good with him and have more experience with the character than a lot of people..because I care about more than just winning or always picking something optimal. "

Here you are clearly implying Fox is optimal and winning = going Fox.

...Oops..you caught me. I think fox is the best character in the game, so obviously if you are trying to play 100% optimally you will play him yes.

...

Your point?

I don't know how many more times you can miss mine. Most of my post has nothing to do with fox or any specific character.