Tier List Speculation

[LupinX]

Why is that a requirement when the rest of the cast doesn't have that?

I mean in the terms of tweaking the vets as in fox peach etc etc

I miss snake's C4 faster detonation... I wish they didn't take that away from him

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Also being glass cannons due to being extremely subject to chaingrabbing or some other reason doesn't mean the characters are balanced. By that logic Brawl MK is extremely balanced. He's one of the lightest characters in the game and gets grab released into true combos by some of the cast.

In traditional fighters you'll find top tier characters are often ones that also have below average health. Having more and superior all around options especially for neutral matters much more.

 

[Deleted member]

i think like 80% of the cast is fine as is and you people ***** too much

 

[[OCK]LLama]

Also being glass cannons due to being extremely subject to chaingrabbing or some other reason doesn't mean the characters are balanced. By that logic Brawl MK is extremely balanced. He's one of the lightest characters in the game and gets grab released into true combos by some of the cast.

In traditional fighters you'll find top tier characters are often ones that also have below average health. Having more and superior all around options especially for neutral matters much more.

So your saying fox should just be a glass cannon yet not be good to compensate for it

basically: if your going to summarize my post and demean it without reading the mean it behind it at all (which is clear from the way you are responding). I will do the same to you. Good day

 

[PlateProp]

I like this new guy

 

[JustSomeScrub]

If by "demeaning your post" you mean pointing out that insisting people have adapted to Fox thanks to the age of Melee when Fox is getting better tournament results than ever before makes no sense whatsoever, then sure.

If the basis for your entire argument is false, how am I supposed to respond to it in any other way?

And what part of "these characters are too good despite being glass cannons" did you not understand? The two are not mutually exclusive and as I've said, fighting games have shown time and time again that a lot of the deemed OP characters happen to be glass cannons.

Low health does not mean a character cannot be overpowered. Again see Brawl MK.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I feel like it's not being stated enough how wildly underrated Ganon is at the moment. I think maybe top 5. Maybe top 3.

Might pick him up instead of Ivy for a while and see what happens. I've always intuited that he's just a vastly better character than Bowser, but never really set out to prove it.

 

[PlateProp]

I feel like it's not being stated enough how wildly underrated Ganon is at the moment. I think maybe top 5. Maybe top 3.

Might pick him up instead of Ivy for a while and see what happens. I've always intuited that he's just a vastly better character than Bowser, but never really set out to prove it.

Does Sanik body bowser

 

[Frost | Odds]

lolno. Bowser wrecks him in this patch as far as I can tell. But then, I only dabbled in Sonic very briefly.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I feel like it's not being stated enough how wildly underrated Ganon is at the moment. I think maybe top 5. Maybe top 3.

Might pick him up instead of Ivy for a while and see what happens. I've always intuited that he's just a vastly better character than Bowser, but never really set out to prove it.

wtf you are kinda nuts there's no way ganon is top 5

 

[JOE!]

Well, in theory he should only lose to links. Nobody else can actually cause harm to him.

 

[PlateProp]

lolno. Bowser wrecks him in this patch as far as I can tell. But then, I only dabbled in Sonic very briefly.

Who does bowser hrd lose to so i can lolcounterpick'd when i'm bored

 

[Frost | Odds]

wtf you are kinda nuts there's no way ganon is top 5

It might just be sleep deprivation or some other kind of insanity, but I don't remember ever seeing a ganon by whose punish game I've been remotely impressed.

I'm probably wrong, it just feels right.

Who does bowser hrd lose to so i can lolcounterpick'd when i'm bored

Ganon, ROB, GnW, ICs, only 10 or 15 others

 

[[OCK]LLama]

If by "demeaning your post" you mean pointing out that insisting people have adapted to Fox thanks to the age of Melee when Fox is getting better tournament results than ever before makes no sense whatsoever, then sure..

Fox didn't win a national/major tournament for 12 years in melee, it took 12 years for Fox to win tornament. And before you say m2ks fox, m2ks fox is like PPMDs falco in which he only uses it in bad MUs/to make life easier vs really campy MUs. (sure math can beat jiggs but why not go fox instead)

Also your entire argument is that people are using the highest ranked character, WHO ISN'T EVEN THE MOST COMMON CHAR OR COMMON TOURNAMENT CHAR at the top level of play.

...

Do I really have to explain the concept of play2win vs the concept of an OP character?
If a character is constantly winning tours and all the top players main him, that doesn't necessarily mean that the character is overpowered. The CORRECT term here would be over-centralization of that character, or in simple terms, over saturation. In Melee especially, there is a huge disconnect from a PLAYER winning a tournament and a character winning a tournament. If a player wins a tournament the player won the tournament, not the character. I don't know why I have to point this out, but every single 2 seconds somebody wins a tour with a top tier people go bat **** crazy about how the character is OP.

However if the character truly was overpowered, you would be able to prove it in the clear broken risk reward factor they have, their relevant top tier MUs. And other factors that go into how powerful a character is. If a character is really that broken, you should be able to prove it without relying on tournament results, which more pertain to over centralization as previously mentioned

If a character is top, but not OP. You will generally see a lot of circlejerking around that character, even if the #2 character is just 1% worse than them. Why? Because people play this game to win, not just for money, but for things like pride. As a competitor, unless you feel this character is absolute cancer lame defensive or whatever and you play to win, you will generally pick a top tier, because you want to WIN. Why choose a 40% chance of winning over 50%? It really makes no sense to handicap yourself if you don't want to. Pick a top tier, if you don't, please don't confuse over centralization with over powered.

Now after that dumb argument, I still have another thing to address.

Fox is not the most popular or most tourney winning character. The most used characters in my knowledge from general melee statistics are Marth and Falco. Fox is #3, which is surprising considering how much he's circle jerked by (mostly people who don't play melee that much) people.

The last tournaments in NTSC have been won by Mang0, who mostly goes falco nowadays. M2K who trimains fox sheik marth but his fox is his least used char and PPMD. Who used 90% Marth at apex and 10% Falco for covering other games but he eventually decided to go Marth usually mid set.

Lets see, so if people couldn't adapt to fox. Why aren't top players losing to Foxes. Heck, M2K is known as a spacies slayer (in his prime, I do not speak of 2015 melee M2K, which I understand his medical reasons to be under preforming that have developed mostly recently but still) and Mang0 almost never loses to other Foxes in dittos or when playing Falco. PPMD also slays spacies but he's more known as a solid neutral game player, not a solid anti spacie player, but that still helps him slay spacies. Armada beats SO much foxes with Peach. But then he complains about the matchup. So he picked Fox like Hax, which I like, because I'm tired of him and Hax complaining about how their characters cannot succeed and how fox is so much better. Yet no #1 player is a mainly fox player. Usually has Fox on the side for MUs or plays another character as their real main. Hungrybox hates getting uthrow uaired but since he can uthrow rest and kill them at like 30% I don't think he can complain.


And the thing is, even though I typed up those paragraphs. That wasn't the basis for my post at all. In fact even if it was you've clearly done a terrible job at proving me wrong, so thanks

And what part of "these characters are too good despite being glass cannons" did you not understand? The two are not mutually exclusive and as I've said, fighting games have shown time and time again that a lot of the deemed OP characters happen to be glass cannons.

The thing is that you're argument relies on Fox being OP in the first place. I never said being a glass canon is his only flaw, or it balances him out perfectly, I mean he's still #1 in melee arguably. But it's one of his main flaws.

And saying being a glass cannon doesn't balance out an originally OP character and pointing to traditional fighters isn't really a good example. Because it's not just low health. It's the fact that any char in the top 8 in melee can zero death him if you're punish game/tech chases can OUTPLAY the fox main. That's different as low health in smash would mean he started ou at 30% instead of 0% or he dies early like Jiggs.

Anyways, if you bothered to read my initial post better, you'd see I mentioned that Project M is just nerfing spacies to PAL but they buff everyone else to NTSC spacies. And they make the characters more based on lame free jank instead of skill that has to be built up and trained.

the argument isn't about how strong the chars are, it's about what kind of skill you have with a char/commitment of a char and what playstyle is rewarded with that character.

I don't think anybodies OP in PM right now, and I don't think anybody is OP in human level melee (even if someone were to become TAS Foxes, the current tier list/matchup guide is based off of that so we have already prepared for such a meta). But I think the Melee top tiers reward more skill, character commitment and a less jank/lame playstyle

Daily reminder that my opinion isn't fact, but it is supported by fact. And someone who disagrees with me could have an argument supported by fact, I just haven't seen a good argument for the PMDTs decision making in this regard (I still love the PMDT for all their work though)

 

[Psyant]

What? falcon doesn't have anywhere near sheik's throw lol. A lot of characters can DI away to tech chase at lower percents, or DI in to jump out/force an aerial follow-up at higher percents, tho mid fallers kinda get boned on either a CG or good aerial follow up regardless.
I hate when people say that some character has sheik's dthrow, because they don't know what NTSC Melee Sheik's dthrow was actually like
No character at any point in PM has actually had something quite that absurd
ROB's current one CGs spacies for 100 (or less depending on the spacie) and semi FFers for around 20-30%, everyone else eats an aerial follow-up at worst. ROB doesn't not have a boost grab and his dash speed/run speed aren't very high.
Pit's 3.02 one CG'd spacies for like 130-150 depending on the spacie, and semi FFers for around 15%, everyone else eats an aerial follow-up at worst. Pit does not have a boost grab (I think?) and his dash speed/run speed aren't that high.
Sheik's NTSC Melee dthrow CG'd semi fast fallers and mid fallers from 0% to kill percent, CG'd semi-floaties around 20-30% depending, always enabled a follow-up on floaties even at kill percent, and always set up a tech chase on fast fallers. Sheik had+has a boost grab, and has high dash speed+high run speed.

Pit actually has a slightly higher run speed than Sheik/Pika/Marth/DK, who're all tied for 11-14th. He's only a smidge faster, though, and it doesn't really take away from your point.

I feel like it's not being stated enough how wildly underrated Ganon is at the moment. I think maybe top 5. Maybe top 3.

Might pick him up instead of Ivy for a while and see what happens. I've always intuited that he's just a vastly better character than Bowser, but never really set out to prove it.

I really can't see him being a top 3 character when even Pikachu can make light work of him, lol. From what I can tell he seems to have a strong niche against slower characters he can abuse his spacing game against, but he still has problems with control of the match being stripped from him against the speedier characters. He seems pretty fairly balanced overall.

 

[PlateProp]

It might just be sleep deprivation or some other kind of insanity, but I don't remember ever seeing a ganon by whose punish game I've been remotely impressed.

I'm probably wrong, it just feels right.


Ganon, ROB, GnW, ICs, only 10 or 15 others

can I lol ike against bowser
is that a thing
I need specifics man

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm not even convinced ROB is a hard counter. There's a lot I do to other characters/rely on vs other characters that straight don't work vs bowser.
dash attack can stuff low/lowish boosts
I can't CC him for punishes because it's bowser
upair juggles don't work guaranteed because eventually he can nair out
I can't outreach him really, I have to catch him when he's just not swinging
Close-but-not-grabbable-close laser is actually a relevant poking tool for ROB in a lot of matchups... except bowser who can just dash attack through it
Bowser is even effective at edgeguarding ROB
The saving graces for ROB in this matchup are dthrow and gyro, the former giving me very hard punishes and the latter making your life awkward as far as suffocating me with bowser's presence
But I feel like it just can't be that bad when such a huge portion of tools can just get stuffed by dash attack and bowser's generally long reach/power

 

[jtm94]

I think Bowser loses to Sonic because grab button and dash dance camping.
If Sonic is bad and runs at Bowser he loses, but Bowser has no way to interact with Sonic in any way.

 

[trash?]

tbh, even the tippity-top ganon players don't even do a lot of really basic punish stuff, guy has fantastic edgeguarding potential with a well-placed b-reverse hover but nobody uses it well enough yet

I am pro-ganodds

e:

I think Bowser loses to Sonic because grab button and dash dance camping.
If Sonic is bad and runs at Bowser he loses, but Bowser has no way to interact with Sonic in any way.

counterpoint: what does sonic do vs. the almighty ftilt

 

[Chevy]

Well, in theory he should only lose to links. Nobody else can actually cause harm to him.

Light Suit Samus does alright.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Fox didn't win a national/major tournament for 12 years in melee, it took 12 years for Fox to win tornament. And before you say m2ks fox, m2ks fox is like PPMDs falco in which he only uses it in bad MUs/to make life easier vs really campy MUs. (sure math can beat jiggs but why not go fox instead)

Also your entire argument is that people are using the highest ranked character, WHO ISN'T EVEN THE MOST COMMON CHAR OR COMMON TOURNAMENT CHAR at the top level of play.

...

Do I really have to explain the concept of play2win vs the concept of an OP character?
If a character is constantly winning tours and all the top players main him, that doesn't necessarily mean that the character is overpowered. The CORRECT term here would be over-centralization of that character, or in simple terms, over saturation. In Melee especially, there is a huge disconnect from a PLAYER winning a tournament and a character winning a tournament. If a player wins a tournament the player won the tournament, not the character. I don't know why I have to point this out, but every single 2 seconds somebody wins a tour with a top tier people go bat **** crazy about how the character is OP.

However if the character truly was overpowered, you would be able to prove it in the clear broken risk reward factor they have, their relevant top tier MUs. And other factors that go into how powerful a character is. If a character is really that broken, you should be able to prove it without relying on tournament results, which more pertain to over centralization as previously mentioned

If a character is top, but not OP. You will generally see a lot of circlejerking around that character, even if the #2 character is just 1% worse than them. Why? Because people play this game to win, not just for money, but for things like pride. As a competitor, unless you feel this character is absolute cancer lame defensive or whatever and you play to win, you will generally pick a top tier, because you want to WIN. Why choose a 40% chance of winning over 50%? It really makes no sense to handicap yourself if you don't want to. Pick a top tier, if you don't, please don't confuse over centralization with over powered.

Now after that dumb argument, I still have another thing to address.

Fox is not the most popular or most tourney winning character. The most used characters in my knowledge from general melee statistics are Marth and Falco. Fox is #3, which is surprising considering how much he's circle jerked by (mostly people who don't play melee that much) people.

The last tournaments in NTSC have been won by Mang0, who mostly goes falco nowadays. M2K who trimains fox sheik marth but his fox is his least used char and PPMD. Who used 90% Marth at apex and 10% Falco for covering other games but he eventually decided to go Marth usually mid set.

Lets see, so if people couldn't adapt to fox. Why aren't top players losing to Foxes. Heck, M2K is known as a spacies slayer (in his prime, I do not speak of 2015 melee M2K, which I understand his medical reasons to be under preforming that have developed mostly recently but still) and Mang0 almost never loses to other Foxes in dittos or when playing Falco. PPMD also slays spacies but he's more known as a solid neutral game player, not a solid anti spacie player, but that still helps him slay spacies. Armada beats SO much foxes with Peach. But then he complains about the matchup. So he picked Fox like Hax, which I like, because I'm tired of him and Hax complaining about how their characters cannot succeed and how fox is so much better. Yet no #1 player is a mainly fox player. Usually has Fox on the side for MUs or plays another character as their real main. Hungrybox hates getting uthrow uaired but since he can uthrow rest and kill them at like 30% I don't think he can complain.


And the thing is, even though I typed up those paragraphs. That wasn't the basis for my post at all. In fact even if it was you've clearly done a terrible job at proving me wrong, so thanks



The thing is that you're argument relies on Fox being OP in the first place. I never said being a glass canon is his only flaw, or it balances him out perfectly, I mean he's still #1 in melee arguably. But it's one of his main flaws.

And saying being a glass cannon doesn't balance out an originally OP character and pointing to traditional fighters isn't really a good example. Because it's not just low health. It's the fact that any char in the top 8 in melee can zero death him if you're punish game/tech chases can OUTPLAY the fox main. That's different as low health in smash would mean he started ou at 30% instead of 0% or he dies early like Jiggs.

Anyways, if you bothered to read my initial post better, you'd see I mentioned that Project M is just nerfing spacies to PAL but they buff everyone else to NTSC spacies. And they make the characters more based on lame free jank instead of skill that has to be built up and trained.

the argument isn't about how strong the chars are, it's about what kind of skill you have with a char/commitment of a char and what playstyle is rewarded with that character.

I don't think anybodies OP in PM right now, and I don't think anybody is OP in human level melee (even if someone were to become TAS Foxes, the current tier list/matchup guide is based off of that so we have already prepared for such a meta). But I think the Melee top tiers reward more skill, character commitment and a less jank/lame playstyle

Daily reminder that my opinion isn't fact, but it is supported by fact. And someone who disagrees with me could have an argument supported by fact, I just haven't seen a good argument for the PMDTs decision making in this regard (I still love the PMDT for all their work though)

It doesn't matter if the character was only used for some matchups. The fact is it helped the players win the tournaments in question. Last tournament I saw was won by Lucky (Fox player) and the one before that Armada with Fox/Peach. Every Swedish tournament is won by Fox so there's that too. Apex was Falco/Marth (more on that below).

And what are you talking about? The biggest tournaments Mango won were with mainly Fox. Evo and MLG in particular. Not to mention Falco is also a spacy and your argument was for both.

Heck you've literally just stated every single top Melee player uses the spacies to some extent aside from Hbox and then say this isn't evidence of overuse and dominance? I mean what?

Stating Fox is only top 3 in major tournament results in Melee is a blatant lie and I can gladly pull up results to showcase how absurd this statement is. You think I was exaggerating when I said some majors quite literally have 4- 5 different Fox (+Falco sometimes) players in top 8?

 

[MLGF]

Personally, I'm sick of this argument because everything is covered but uh...
*ahem*

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=1

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm not even convinced ROB is a hard counter. There's a lot I do to other characters/rely on vs other characters that straight don't work vs bowser.
dash attack can stuff low/lowish boosts
I can't CC him for punishes because it's bowser
upair juggles don't work guaranteed because eventually he can nair out
I can't outreach him really, I have to catch him when he's just not swinging
Close-but-not-grabbable-close laser is actually a relevant poking tool for ROB in a lot of matchups... except bowser who can just dash attack through it
Bowser is even effective at edgeguarding ROB
The saving graces for ROB in this matchup are dthrow and gyro, the former giving me very hard punishes and the latter making your life awkward as far as suffocating me with bowser's presence
But I feel like it just can't be that bad when such a huge portion of tools can just get stuffed by dash attack and bowser's generally long reach/power

I'm not convinced it's as hard of a counter as I used to be, but it's still pretty damn awful.

Wario is probably worse for Bowser, I just keep forgetting to include him because there's no good ones locally.

 

[Binary Clone]

Fox is not the most popular or most tourney winning character. The most used characters in my knowledge from general melee statistics are Marth and Falco. Fox is #3, which is surprising considering how much he's circle jerked by (mostly people who don't play melee that much) people.



Daily reminder that my opinion isn't fact, but it is supported by fact. And someone who disagrees with me could have an argument supported by fact, I just haven't seen a good argument for the PMDTs decision making in this regard (I still love the PMDT for all their work though)

lol

In addition to MLGF's of PM: http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=1

he most used characters in my knowledge from general melee statistics are Marth and Falco. Fox is #3

wtf
http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=0
Overall it goes Fox then Marth then Falco what are you talking about

Daily reminder that my opinion isn't fact, but it is supported by fact.

/discuss

 

[PlateProp]

Personally, I'm sick of this argument because everything is covered but uh...
*ahem*

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=1

lol

In addition to MLGF's of PM: http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=1


wtf
http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=0
Overall it goes Fox then Marth then Falco what are you talking about

rekd
10/rekd
nonipples/rekd

 

[[OCK]LLama]

It doesn't matter if the character was only used for some matchups. The fact is it helped the players win the tournaments in question. Last tournament I saw was won by Lucky (Fox player) and the one before that Armada with Fox/Peach. Every Swedish tournament is won by Fox so there's that too. Apex was Falco/Marth (more on that below).

And what are you talking about? The biggest tournaments Mango won were with mainly Fox. Evo and MLG in particular. Not to mention Falco is also a spacy and your argument was for both.

Heck you've literally just stated every single top Melee player uses the spacies to some extent aside from Hbox and then say this isn't evidence of overuse and dominance? I mean what?

Stating Fox is only top 3 in major tournament results in Melee is a blatant lie and I can gladly pull up results to showcase how absurd this statement is. You think I was exaggerating when I said some majors quite literally have 4- 5 different Fox (+Falco sometimes) players in top 8?

So again you've accepted that it's rather over saturation than over powered? I love how you still have no responses for my other arguments lol

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Big House 4 results:

1: C9 Mang0 - Fox, Falco, Falcon, Marth ($2,296)
2: P4K | Mew2King - Marth, Sheik ($1148)
3: Leffen - Fox ($861)
4: P4K | Armada - Peach ($574)
5: Huggies | Lucky - Fox ($287
5: VGBC | Hax - Fox ($287)
7: IPG | Kels - Fox, Sheik ($143.50)
7: Westballz - Falco ($143.50)

5 Foxes, 1 Falco. Fox wins.

Apex 2015:

1. EG | PPMD (Falco, Marth) $7,228
2. Alliance | Armada (Peach, Fox) $3,614
3. Leffen (Fox) - $2,711 + $1,000 from Mango
4. C9 | Mango (Falco) - $1,807
5. liquid.Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) - $903 [US]
5. VGBC | Amsa (Yoshi) - $903 [JP]
7. EMG | KirbyKaze (Sheik) - $452 [CAN]
7. Shroomed (Sheik) - $452 [US]

3 Foxes (not listed here but Mango also used Fox to beat people), 1 Falco. Falco/Marth wins.

1st- Armada
2nd- Mang0
3rd- Leffen
4th- PewPewU
5th - Westballz
5th - Kira
7th- KirbyKaze
7th- MacD

3 Foxes, 1 Falco. Fox/Peach wins.

I'm not going to bother listing the Swedish tournaments because as I've stated those are exclusively won by Fox.

So tell me how exactly have the spacies been tamed again?

Yes over-saturation is a problem but it's usually caused as in this case because said characters are too powerful...ie. there is little reason not to use them when they are that much better/have more potential than most of the cast. Or are you telling me the fact that everyone likes playing Fox (including myself) is just random luck?

Once again your entire argument is based on the "fact" that spacies have largely been figured out thanks to better punish games. But this premise is completely false. You hinted it yourself with the 12 years comment. They are getting BETTER results now than before, not worse.

 

[4tlas]

lol

In addition to MLGF's of PM: http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=1


wtf
http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams?value=0&datetime=1415923200&rank=0
Overall it goes Fox then Marth then Falco what are you talking about



/discuss

Those statistics take from all tournaments uploaded to Smashboards right? Not just the majors/nationals? Maybe that's what he's referring to?

While I was posting this I got ninja'd by someone finding the results for majors. I still don't know if that's all the data, but I don't care to argue about it. Carry on.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

rekd
10/rekd
nonipples/rekd

oh **** it's not like I said melee or anything in that same sentance (in response to mlgf)

man people on smashboards really know how to read don't they

also smashboards rankings are highly thrown off when it comes to the most tourney winning or the character most appearing in nationals

 

[trash?]

fox is really good, but that's not really the major point to acknowledge when discussing fox. historically, anyone that becomes as good as fox, for any reason gets notably large nerfs to their name... but fox never does, sitting comfortably around the top of the tier list every single version.

to be honest, I don't know if the oversaturation of him comes from an explicit part of balance (total strengths) and isn't just a side-effect of how the PMDT treat him; after all, why bother playing a fantastic character that'll get nerfed within the next version, when fox will always remain fantastic? there's a reason armada and zero both bluntly dropped pit for fox, after all, it's a great long term plan

 

[JustSomeScrub]

oh **** it's not like I said melee or anything in that same sentance

man people on smashboards really know how to read don't they

also smashboards rankings are highly thrown off when it comes to the most tourney winning or the character most appearing in nationals

It's not about which character simply appears most in nationals as in the entire tournament bracket if that's what you are referring to , it's the one that's appearing most in top 8s at nationals is what's relevant because if people have truly adapted to Fox, he should be garnering less successful results. And as I've shown Melee major top 8s tend to be full of Foxes.

 

[4tlas]

oh **** it's not like I said melee or anything in that same sentance

man people on smashboards really know how to read don't they

also smashboards rankings are highly thrown off when it comes to the most tourney winning or the character most appearing in nationals

Um...he posted the Melee ones in there too, did you not read his post?

Also someone posted the majors/nationals I think so you may want to look at that too, since that doesn't include all the small tourneys that Smashboards includes in that data set.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

fox is really good, but that's not really the major point to acknowledge when discussing fox. historically, anyone that becomes as good as fox, for any reason gets notably large nerfs to their name... but fox never does, sitting comfortably around the top of the tier list every single version.

to be honest, I don't know if the oversaturation of him comes from an explicit part of balance (total strengths) and isn't just a side-effect; after all, why bother playing a fantastic character that'll get nerfed within the next version, when fox will always remain fantastic? there's a reason armada and zero both bluntly dropped pit for fox, after all, it's a great long term plan

Yes that's exactly what I said from the start of this discussion. It all comes back to this. If Brawl characters in PM are more prone to drastic nerfs and changes due to Melee bias, it explains why so many people prefer the Melee characters and why Fox is still very popular.

 

[Binary Clone]

If you're going to say your argument is based on facts, and then when presented with facts you just deny then and ignore them without supplying concrete information of your own, I will certainly ignore all of your arguments, and not feel guilty in the slightest.

 

[trash?]

good tip for all discourse: always be immediately skeptical of anyone claiming what they say is "factual, objective truth" when heavily subjective concepts like balance are brought up

I don't think I've actually seen one mention of a "fact" in the entirety of smashboards that wasn't a thinly veiled disguise of "if you disagree, you disagree with ~THE TRUTH~"

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Just a few things. First, what's this about buffing everyone to NTSC Fox and nerfing fox down to PAL? I thought everyone agreed we pretty much left that in 3.02... Second, the whole argument that spacies get punished super hard. Characters like Zero Suit, who is designed to zero-death characters, cannot. Also, the rule set prevents FD. Thirdly, crap, did I start this whole melee bias? Whoops....................

 

[[OCK]LLama]

fox is really good, but that's not really the major point to acknowledge when discussing fox. historically, anyone that becomes as good as fox, for any reason gets notably large nerfs to their name... but fox never does, sitting comfortably around the top of the tier list every single version.

to be honest, I don't know if the oversaturation of him comes from an explicit part of balance (total strengths) and isn't just a side-effect; after all, why bother playing a fantastic character that'll get nerfed within the next version, when fox will always remain fantastic? there's a reason armada and zero both bluntly dropped pit for fox, after all, it's a great long term plan

To your first part, maybe it's not because of how over powered they are, but how jank or how they have a playstyle that the PMDT doesn't want to encourage? And no fox is not better or as good as (imo he's slightly under) than 3.0 pit or mewtwo lol, you have to be kidding yourself when you say that.

Balancing or patching really isn't as linear as people make it out to be.

Also, Fox never gets nerfed? Dude do you notice the difference between NTSC Fox and PAL/Project M Fox? It's obvious that Fox has been nerfed from Melee itself, and the meta is clearly young so the people switching to Fox already have years of meta so who really knows how Fox will be when the other chars actually have a developed meta.

And ZeRo and Armada main fox in melee, and again, he is now the best character in their views, so put the 2 together and you have a clear reason. Why continue with Pitt just because he's your project M main when Fox is your melee main for more amount of time AND is better.

Also the reason people play fox is because this is a competitive game that people I dunno, play to win? Even if It isn't the most overpowered char, it is still the best character. ZeRo is kind of known for jumping the train on the best char, and that's ok imo, because in the end he's playing to be #1, not #2.

If you're going to say your argument is based on facts, and then when presented with facts you just deny then and ignore them without supplying concrete information of your own, I will certainly ignore all of your arguments, and not feel guilty in the slightest.

I did not deny and ignore these facts because they oppose my argument, it's because of how unreliable the facts and evidence given are, if you want me to accept the evidence (and yes I have given concrete information of my own, but thanks for jumping the "oh this dude just got rekt with statistics even though they're unreliable" train instead of actually reading the arguments lol) then why not actually make it legitimate.

Either way that was the smallest part of my argument and people are still freaking out about how I'm wrong and my entire post is incorrect, gotta love smashboards.

It's not about which character simply appears most in nationals as in the entire tournament bracket if that's what you are referring to , it's the one that's appearing most in top 8s at nationals is what's relevant because if people have truly adapted to Fox, he should be garnering less successful results. And as I've shown Melee major top 8s tend to be full of Foxes.

No, if people adapted to Fox, he wouldn't be winning all the tournaments by himself. That's like saying people haven't adapted to marth because PPMD just won apex, M2k won tbh4. This logic is highly flawed, if nobody knew how to beat Fox, any random joe could just beat non Fox top players because of their character. However you have to realize it's ultimately the players, not the character.

Again, still not the main point of my argument as I have explained more than once.

 

[trash?]

I don't fully understand the "you can punish spacies!" argument, tbh. like... you're not wrong, but that's not something that lets you win matchups against fox. if that let you win matchups, then fox would be the worst character in melee, because very, very few characters in melee can't punish fox. that's not an equalizer or a winner, that's the tolerable bit of a fast-faller that can otherwise SHFFL and drop platforms with complete safety

like, you don't win vs. falcon because you punish hard, that's a small section of the point being made. the actual bit that matters when you fight falcon is, naturally, if his obnoxious uair doesn't work against your character

 

[[OCK]LLama]

I don't fully understand the "you can punish spacies!" argument, tbh. like... you're not wrong, but that's not something that lets you win matchups against fox. if that let you win matchups, then fox would be the worst character in melee, because very, very few characters in melee can't punish fox. that's not an equalizer or a winner, that's the tolerable bit of a fast-faller that can otherwise SHFFL and drop platforms with complete safety

like, you don't win vs. falcon because you punish hard, that's a small section of the point being made. the actual bit that matters when you fight falcon is, naturally, if his obnoxious uair doesn't work against your character

The fact that spacies have to deal with insane risk/reward gameplay prevents them from just being insane like they are in theory.
Really tl;dr version but why make a post on why I feel this when someone's just gonna argue semantics about my older post or something of the sort. Just gotta get these responses out quick

also reminder that I might incorrectly post things or not be able to catch up since itsl ike 5 ppl vs 1 and this thread moves super fast since all of us are online at once

 

[CORY]

tbh, even the tippity-top ganon players don't even do a lot of really basic punish stuff, guy has fantastic edgeguarding potential with a well-placed b-reverse hover but nobody uses it well enough yet

I am pro-ganodds

I was thinking on this while driving home and hot a similar conclusion about his edgeguarding being pretty underdeveloped still. You can go absurdly deep with a running jump into float and his uair has great coverage on it for edgeguarding.

But, as with most of the things ganon wants to do, you:re going to have to commit pretty hard for itit and if they come in high, it's much less potent.

I can agree to ganon being a bit underrated, but I don't think he'll move out of mid tier ever, with the current meta and his current kit. He loses too hard to mobility and projectiles in neutral for his punish game to pick up the slack. He would have to pretty much literally touch of death people to make up for the fact that you can just play fox or falcon and punish nearly as hard, but also have a better overall game at the same time.