Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

When I said that, I was talking about shield pressure. I am by no means saying that asc isn't good. It is very good. Also, I meant a FAF of 17. Its really good for combos, especially at low percents with moves like up tilt. It is interesting how some moves actually lose frame by doing ASC.

You shouldn't use it with jab 1 or 2, ftilt, and its not really worth using on dtilt (on gain 2 frames). Utilt you gain 6 frames if at the earliest, gain 2 if you hit while its straight up, and lose 3 if you hit on the last frame. Fair seems to give you 6 extra frames (I am having difficulty telling what fair's FAF is in game and Brawlbox isn't helping). Uair might net you about the same advantage. Dash attack gives you crazy advantage (FAF 32 vs FAF 17 after first hitbox). Other then those, no move really benefits from ASC. This isn't even getting into frame 3 hitbox applications either.

If you think any of this is too good and should be nerfed, I disagree. If you think its amazing, I do agree. It is so unique and has such crazy applications it would be a shame to remove it prematurely. I would argue the whole "Spacies have shine and its not broken cuz we had to deal with it" thing, but I start ranting when I get going. Basically, if Spacies are allowed to have shines, Peach is allowed to keep float, and every other dumb unique thing from melee is allowed to stay, this should be allowed to stay.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You vastly overestimate the influence one person has in development.

Just because Strong Bad is vocal/prominent outside the development team, doesn't mean he's steering the ship or anything. Far from it.

I would imagine a few of his opinions at least are held by the rest of the team. If you all drastically vary, there would be no way balance issues could be addressed. Unless you're telling me only one or two members handles that aspect of PM.

I'm not saying SB's word is law but the gist of at least some of what he's saying is probably going to be reflected in the next balance patch.

Also if you don't want people to make assumptions, why not actually have a spokesperson for this sort of thing? I don't see the point of secrecy at all tbh, we're all going to know soon enough anyway and it's not like you guys are making a profit off any of this.

 

[Strong Badam]

Strong Bad put Lucario as second place. Does that mean he's going to get nerfed super hard in 3.6?

Not necessarily, no. One does not cause the other. Also I have Lucario tied for 2nd; this is an important distinction. On the list I made two (?) months ago, his viability is similar to that of ~3 other characters. IMO.

I think that's a fair assumption considering he has significant influence on development.

Being a good character doesn't necessarily mean you have problematic attributes that need to be addressed. It's a square-rectangle kinda deal.
Let me put it this way: If people could look at my tier list and get a good idea of which characters will be nerfed or buffed in the next patch, I wouldn't be posting a tier list in the first place. Transparency sounds great in theory but it's terrible in practice; we were very open about development builds during 2.0's development and we stopped doing so for a lot of good reasons.

so when salty texas players say "there was no good pm players at this tournament", they just mean "we didn't have sethlon there so it's invalid", right

None of us are salty about anything. Just something like the top 10-15 players in the country weren't present at the event, and good players noticed and mentioned it. And yes at least 3 of those would be players from DFW so us being present would have certainly raised the skill pool of the event. The tourneys results aren't "invalid," just not representative of the metagame, like Super Nebulous or The Next Episode.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

And what would those reasons be? I'm not saying you have to listen to the demands of players, just tell us the gist of what to expect.

It doesn't make any difference to development. It just means players don't waste their time working on some aspect of their game that might not even be possible in later iterations.

Again I get if this was some professional project and leaking something would have huge ramifications but this is 100% grassroots.

Also when there is clear undeniable Melee bias in PM (where Brawl characters tend to get nerfed a lot harder than Melee ones if they are perceived as too strong) it's hard to believe the community doesn't influence you guys at all whether directly or indirectly.

Also:

"Being a good character doesn't necessarily mean you have problematic attributes that need to be addressed. It's a square-rectangle kinda deal."

I'm fairly new to PM and I'd be inclined to believe this but I happen to at least know that Lucas, Pit, Diddy and Mewtwo were widely considered top 5 material last version and they all got nerfed hard with the exception of maybe Diddy (who was also nerfed but not quite as much as the others).

So you can say there is no correlation and being top tier doesn't always mean you deserve nerfs but that's not what PM's prior history indicated.

Edit:

Isn't IPK considered top 10 for PM and wasn't he present at the MVG tournament? Yet it was Falco/Puff in finals (Hbox/Westballz). Similarly Mango and Armada recently won big tournaments for PM using Falco/Fox and they don't even play/practice the game apparently.

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with PM rewarding those good with Melee characters. It just seems that when Brawl character loyalists start to catch up, they are instantly hit with the nerf hammer. So I just hope it isn't the case for 3.6.

 

[Idostuff]

Those top tier characters that you listed were all problematic though. Pit had his down throw. Mewtwo had hover out of woop woop. Diddy had 2 bananas and sheik's fair. And Lucas could break your shield n64 style. Plus they all had insane recoveries. There is no way a reasonable person can say that those characters didn't have crazy stuff that needed to be taken out of the game. Now maybe the nerfs went too far with some (Pit and Link), but that is a different discussion.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

"Being a good character doesn't necessarily mean you have problematic attributes that need to be addressed. It's a square-rectangle kinda deal."
I'm fairly new to PM and I'd be inclined to believe this but I happen to at least know that Lucas, Pit, Diddy and Mewtwo were widely considered top 5 material last version and they all got nerfed hard with the exception of maybe Diddy (who was also nerfed but not quite as much as the others).
.

Look, characters like 3.0 Mewtwo, Lucas, Diddy, 2.6 Ivy, 2.5 Sonic, 2.0 Ike, etc. were nerfed because they were completely ridiculous. When they were at their most powerful, those characters relied on extremely gimmicky playstyles that circumvented traditional play and made them too powerful without having to work as hard for it. And even after being nerfed hard, Mewtwo is still amazing. Diddy is still amazing. Lucas is still amazing. Sonic is still amazing. Ike is still amazing. Ivy is still amazing. The only one that might've been nerfed a bit too much is Pit, but that's debatable.

So you can say there is no correlation and being top tier doesn't always mean you deserve nerfs but that's not what PM's prior history indicated.

This is factually incorrect. In different version of PM, characters that aren't melee top-tiers like Wolf, Snake, Mario, Yoshi, Meta Knight, Wario, post-2.0 Ike, post-2.5 Sonic, etc. were considered by many to be top-tier in certain iterations of PM but received minor changes in the next update. If you actually look at the changelogs and tier lists of each PM update, then you'd realize that the only characters that got nerfed hard were the ones that were ridiculously overpowered and had it coming, and that most characters that were top-tier in one update weren't dramatically changed from update to update.

Also when there is clear undeniable Melee bias in PM (where Brawl characters tend to get nerfed a lot harder than Melee ones if they are perceived as too strong) it's hard to believe the community doesn't influence you guys at all whether directly or indirectly.

There is no "Melee bias" in PM. The only Melee top-tier that arguably still needs nerfs is Fox. Most of the Melee top-tiers have had their ridiculous stuff nerfed in PM such as Sheik's free chain-grabbing and spacies shine invincibility. At the same time, characters like Wolf and Snake (both Brawl characters) have pretty much always been top tier (or close to top tier) but have only received minor changes in each update, just like many Melee characters such as Falcon and Peach, so you can't claim that there is some kind of bs Melee bias if you're actually looking at how Melee and Brawl characters have received nerfs/buffs across each update. The characters that have been nerfed hard are the ones that seriously deserved it, and our metagame is much healthier because of it.

Isn't IPK considered top 10 for PM and wasn't he present at the MVG tournament? Yet it was Falco/Puff in finals (Hbox/Westballz). Similarly Mango and Armada recently won big tournaments for PM using Falco/Fox and they don't even play/practice the game apparently.

Of course players like Mango and Armada are able to win big PM tournaments. They're literally the best Smash players in the world and the characters they play in PM have over a decade of metagame development. Realistically, a PM player that's been playing PM for a couple of years with a character that is still in the first few years of metagame development wouldn't be able to beat one of the best players to ever pick up a controller who is using the character they've been using for way longer. Also, Armada won Apex 2014 in PM using Pit, and he was definitely playing the game a lot back then and with a Brawl character.

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with PM rewarding those good with Melee characters. It just seems that when Brawl character loyalists start to catch up, they are instantly hit with the nerf hammer. So I just hope it isn't the case for 3.6.

Again, the Brawl characters that got the nerf hammer were the ones that were designed with ridiculous nonsense that made that way too OP.

If you're that concerned about character changes in future updates that you feel like you deserve for the developers of the game to tell you what changes they're making, then you should relax and understand that 3.5 was a very major and necessary design update, and we will probably never see that much change across the cast again. 3.5 removed most of the horrible janky stuff that was harming the metagame, and it made just about every character fair. You can expect future PM updates to have minor changes across the majority of the cast and not massive nerfs.

If you want to dedicate yourself to a Brawl character, by all means do it! Pretty much all of them are well-designed now that 3.5 rejuvenated the metagame, and a lot of the Brawl characters are still very underdeveloped. Potential nerfs are not something that should be feared or prevent you from doing well with your favorite character.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Ehhh... I dunno it's really bias in the way that was suggested above, but Melee's hand is certainly rather strong in PM. There are 28 explicit references to matching Melee in 3.5's patch notes, plus the change to make Tink's early hit 'rang work like Ylink's off the top of my head. While there are a few changes that move away from Melee (Tink's nair), there may also be changes towards it that I'm not counting. There are also silly things like Link's uair hitboxes that exist solely "because Melee". I mention that one because the last time I saw it come up in discussion, a PM dev all but said as much. Regardless of how minor it may or may not be, there's no excuse for that and it should have been addressed by now.

I don't mean to imply that making a given thing more like Melee is inherently bad, but I think there are instances and trends of making or keeping certain things Melee-like when it may not be the best available option.

Also Armada never practiced PM on a regular basis iirc.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

If their playstyle was effective consistently how is that gimmicky? A gimmick is something that only works due to lack of matchup knowledge and how to punish it.

Waveshining, shine shield pressure and shine combos in general are far from traditional Smash play as well, most characters have nothing quite like it but no one's arguing it's too OP. I say this as someone that uses Fox and Falco. Heck competitive Smash as a whole goes against traditional Smash and what was intended so that's a moot point either way.

If characters like MK and Sonic were considered top tier at one point and are no longer considered anywhere near the top, how is that not evidence of drastic changes? It doesn't matter if it took multiple updates as opposed to 1 to drop that low, point is they were nerfed majorly overtime. That is to say MK from Brawl was nerfed A LOT harder than Fox. Don't even get me started on Olimar.

Speaking of Falcon he's actually gotten buffed despite already being high tier in Melee. The Melee bias is real. There's a reason most choose to play Melee characters in PM.

You say the metagame is healthier and I agree but it's also a lot more Melee centric. The last few tournaments I've seen from PM involved characters like Fox, Falco, Puff and Falcon in finals. At least 3.02 had more diversity.

Going back to the "Melee characters obviously have a more developed meta which is why they see such great results" argument again, at one point Brawl characters seemed to have caught up but then were nerfed to oblivion, Pit being a prime example. The difference is when people succeeded with those it was "the characters were just broken" as you've clearly stated but when a Fox or Falcon wins it was all the player's doing.

That's the bias I'm talking about and you're a prime example of it.

If tomorrow Lucario were to win a major everybody would use it as evidence that the character is broken. Zero credit would be given to the player. But if a Fox wins it's just because "Armada is the best in the world" to use your example. I remember when Ike actually won something major and half the chat was like "Ike is OP please nerf".

 

[Gallo69]

Ight so its clearly important now that im not beyond drunk beyond belief beyond butthole that i give you guys my tier list. whih is the real tier list and its all that matters in life. so suck it i guess. all day. tiererino cappucino al paccino suckerino .

Ight so

A.
Fox.
Falco - i think hes still good idk why yall dont think so.
uh
IKE - yo hes mad good but dont nerf his **** hell be mad borignin
WOLF - hes good af too
Marth - You all dont reallize the power of a god fire emblem. everyone on roys red sword but you dont even know that marth bout to give everyone the emblem D
Damn theres mad characters in this game. Lemme just copy and paste a tier list that i made for no reason like a few weeks ago.

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Ike
Wolf
Marth
Roy
Falcon
Samus
Toon Link
Lucas
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Ganon
GnW
ROB
Mario
Diddy

ZSS
Pikachu
Peach
Pit
Kirby
Ness
Lucario
Snake
Sonic
Zelda
Wario

Link
Squirtle
Jigglypuff
Metaknight
Luigi
Bowser
Ivysaur
DK
DDD
Charizard
Olimar
ICs

I HAVE no idea if i even said all the character s this tier list is prob wack af but w/e suck it. Mario is legit though. ye though.

 

[DMG]

Not every region has the same diversity of characters, or Brawl character representatives at a high enough level. EC in particular has a lot of Melee char usage for PM from what I can gather. I think Aftershock had great diversity on characters, both Brawl and Melee ones. Not every tourney will look like that, but then not every tourney will look like Fox vs Falco GF's, or 8 Spacies in top 16. Hard to verify trends when regions are so vastly different on character choices imo.


With that said, Melee chars DO have a bias in place for them (IMO, not a PMDT member so don't quote me as the word of God Strong Bad), but it's mostly aimed at keeping them the same. Some of the Melee chars present great benchmarking and relative power guidelines of how to shape other characters imo. If you tend to keep Peach, Marth, Falcon relatively the same throughout the patches, then balancing a weaker Melee character becomes easier because you get consistent comparisons to judge the character changes over each patch (or dev build even). Brawl characters go through wilder changes and design shifts, so imagine accurately balancing them against each of those Melee chars also changing. Marth Dtilt IASA frames nerfed, Peach DJ buffed, Falcon Dthrow angle changed, etc. You start doing that, and you end up questioning how other characters fare against a plethora of variations of the standard Melee chars.


"Ike looks good enough to beat weaker Peach, but what about buffed Peach? Do we need to bump him up more? How far do we need to bump up other chars if we decide to bump up Ike? What if others can handle Ike plenty even after his bumps, but can't handle Peach or Marth? Do we bump those chars up at Ike's expense, so they can handle Peach or Marth better?" Etc it turns into a nightmare of endless questions and major cast-wide implications.



TL:DR

Some stuff should stay pretty similar, as a consistent backdrop to judge other characters progress and overall power level. Why not have some of the staple Melee chars stay similar, and use them as guidelines, while we undertake the arduous process of properly balancing and designing the Brawl chars?

 

[Akhenderson]

If you give a character a move similar to shine but comes out 8 frames slower, people will cry fowl or call it the dumbest move ever while having no problems with a move that's way better, but on a melee character (lol magnet v reflector)
Once a non-melee character starts to place well or above the original melee characters, that's when people start crying for the nerf bat because apparently it's the character and not the player. Now granted that's not always the case, but people keep jumping to conclusions that a player who does well only does so because the character is "overpowered" rather than actually being good at the game.

I still wonder why some melee characters get to keep some of their incredibly strong options, while every other character that isn't from the melee high to top tiers lose theirs.

Also on a different note, NWM had a very diverse cast of characters at top 5. In fact, none of them were melee high tiers except Peach.

 

[.alizarin]

i think i heard this on salt mines: "if the pmdt invented the shine, everyone would riot". and we would (or at least i would). there's definitely some favoritism going on in terms of who and what gets nerfed outside of the overtly stupid things like the invincibility on shine or melee sheik's dthrow (though fox is still fox so). that said, having the favoritism for the sake of having a baseline makes sense i suppose, though i'm not entirely convinced that that kind of thing is healthy for the game.

in regards to the trend of pm top tiers getting beaten with a stick in the next patch, i'll just leave this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

i don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that if a character gets an absurd option(s), then people will probably use it and place highly in tournaments provided the user is competent. how the pmdt comes to realize that they messed up isn't apparent to me, but i think they're more reasonable about changes than some guy who says, "oh, this person is doing well with a brawl character, i better beat the character into the ground". i think it's reasonable to assume that they make changes from observing how the meta develops and seeing if they may have overlooked something rather than beating up the character that takes home some money.

as a side note, i'll just say that i was hesitant in switching to tink at first from the melee high tiers (marth, sheik) because of potential nerfs in future patches (though the nerfs from 3.0 to 3.5 were deserved, dthrow etc)

 

[JOE!]

Personally, I see it as a sort of "design bias" even if unintentional due to wanting some sort of standard / "if it ain't broke..." kind of thinking. Like, it is fine to have a base line of sorts but then it seems inconsistent with the rest of the game that is constantly changing. You can just sort of tell when a melee character has some stuff they can do that a PM character wouldn't have.

For example, DDD cannot throw items when they are set to off and none. Peach can always have a chance to toss a Mr Saturn, Beam Sword or bob-omb... because melee. Diddy's Fair was nerfed to be more reasonable, but Fox's Uair (2nd hit) is in practice stronger than even his Usmash... because melee. Falcon can sort of just end you with Fair from anything and he is the hype master, Wario Side B's you from something and its seen as "frustrating" while not having the flexibility that the knee has comparatively, or rather "insert strong finisher here" is seen this way when on a fresh character.

Not sure how exactly to describe it, but there's a degree of separation at play here. You can sort of tell when the melee tops sort of just have that extra edge that clearly wouldn't have been made by the PMDT, especially when their designs have similar tools toned down or reworked (like Ness' Magnet vs a Spacie shine, or better Wolf's shine that can be CC'd). Its just a weird disconnect where nobody blinks an eye that Peach is allowed to have a Dsmash that can potentially deal 70% in one go, but on anyone else a worse yet comparable move would cause a riot.

Another thing that is interesting is that there are relatively fewer "PM characters" :

(AKA: Brawl characters that got big changes, aside from like DDD who I dont think actually changed that drastically outside universal stuff)

Then we have altered melee vets:
(AKA: melee characters with big changes)

And the melee tops:
(Relatively little change)

Its like those 7 are part of their own little bubble outside the rest of the game the other 34 are playing, but occasionally come down into it and sort of clash.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

^ agreed. Basically you all have been going about this the wrong way. You can't point to a character like 3.02 Pit and say "see, they nerfed a brawl character". You need to provide specific instances of where one tool got nerfed and another hasn't. If in 3.6, ASC is nerfed, I will use that as my go to example. It can be anything. Olimar having crap grab range on purples now will Marth keeps his, even though Olimar's is slower, has more endlag, and can't chaingrab would be a decent one. (on an aside, karma is going to destroy me for calling Olimar bad in the wrong are, karma=steelegutty...).

 

[Frost | Odds]

A PM character with basically anything in Sheik's kit? Impossible

Though I did just have a small happyneurysm at the thought of Bowser getting anything like Peach's dsmash.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

All i know is
Lucario getting them nerfs dawg

 

[steelguttey]

after reassesing some changes oli is getting in 3.6 i realized alot of people are going to look at him and deem him stupid just because he has strong killing power when flowered but i feel like i need to remind people that olimar will never have no bad matchups because of the basic flaws of th character. character specific stuff wil always **** the character up no matter how much they change the knockback of his ****

 

[Boiko]

after reassesing some changes oli is getting in 3.6 i realized alot of people are going to look at him and deem him stupid just because he has strong killing power when flowered but i feel like i need to remind people that olimar will never have no bad matchups because of the basic flaws of th character. character specific stuff wil always **** the character up no matter how much they change the knockback of his ****

Like having no answer to swords?

 

[CORY]

And what would those reasons be? I'm not saying you have to listen to the demands of players, just tell us the gist of what to expect.

It doesn't make any difference to development. It just means players don't waste their time working on some aspect of their game that might not even be possible in later iterations.

Again I get if this was some professional project and leaking something would have huge ramifications but this is 100% grassroots.

because they have big changes that then change over the development cycle. there's no reason to announce "guys, we're taking out ALL tethers, bcuz they're a headache to work with" then they find out, 2 months later, that there's suddenly a simple workaround developed for them, so they put them back in (just made all that **** up, btw).

if that happened, people would whine and ***** about it THE ENTIRE TIME! both, when it was announced they were being removed and when that change was retracted. and nothing would come of the complaining, ultimately. it doesn't matter if they're not a "professional project", they still want to treat it like one because that's the best way to manage everything.

i remember when they had dev build streams and seeing some really wacky stuff, then having it entirely disappear the next week. that caused a crapton of agitation, because people would want to know why the thing was changed and all of the details on the change, but ultimately the change was meaningless because it was just a shot in the dark idea that they decided against later on. (best example of this i can remember was changing ganon's grounded sideb to launch people instead of put them in a tech situation. it was on a really really brief iteration of that test build, then was dropped. but people had seen it and were pestering pmdtbr about it and got no responses. it was aggravating for the ganon people, but ultimately didn't matter for anything).

 

[steelguttey]

Like having no answer to swords?

having no answer to swords, having problems with campy characters, windboxes, etc.

 

[JOE!]

Things change so fast in development that often it is more harmful to the image / understanding of the masses to be super transparent. The issue is that you really can't please everybody, and having say a move working one way may get some folks excited, and having it axed immediately would turn them away entirely even though it was a mere experiment, etc.

 

[DMG]

having no answer to swords, having problems with campy characters, windboxes, etc.

Then it must be safe to say that Olimar can't pass wind, can he?

 

[JOE!]

Then it must be safe to say that Olimar can't pass wind, can he?

OP, deflower all my pikmin :C

 

[JustSomeScrub]

because they have big changes that then change over the development cycle. there's no reason to announce "guys, we're taking out ALL tethers, bcuz they're a headache to work with" then they find out, 2 months later, that there's suddenly a simple workaround developed for them, so they put them back in (just made all that **** up, btw).

if that happened, people would whine and ***** about it THE ENTIRE TIME! both, when it was announced they were being removed and when that change was retracted. and nothing would come of the complaining, ultimately. it doesn't matter if they're not a "professional project", they still want to treat it like one because that's the best way to manage everything.

i remember when they had dev build streams and seeing some really wacky stuff, then having it entirely disappear the next week. that caused a crapton of agitation, because people would want to know why the thing was changed and all of the details on the change, but ultimately the change was meaningless because it was just a shot in the dark idea that they decided against later on. (best example of this i can remember was changing ganon's grounded sideb to launch people instead of put them in a tech situation. it was on a really really brief iteration of that test build, then was dropped. but people had seen it and were pestering pmdtbr about it and got no responses. it was aggravating for the ganon people, but ultimately didn't matter for anything).

I'm not referring to changes that are pending but rather those that are already 100% confirmed. Considering 3.6 is coming out soon there is no doubt things that have already been decided and are far too late to change. I'd only want things like this to be made public, not things they are merely experimenting with.

 

[CORY]

nothing is 100% confirmed until the patch goes live.

edit: addendum for devposts being the exception to that statement.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Personally, I see it as a sort of "design bias" even if unintentional due to wanting some sort of standard / "if it ain't broke..." kind of thinking. Like, it is fine to have a base line of sorts but then it seems inconsistent with the rest of the game that is constantly changing. You can just sort of tell when a melee character has some stuff they can do that a PM character wouldn't have.

For example, DDD cannot throw items when they are set to off and none. Peach can always have a chance to toss a Mr Saturn, Beam Sword or bob-omb... because melee. Diddy's Fair was nerfed to be more reasonable, but Fox's Uair (2nd hit) is in practice stronger than even his Usmash... because melee. Falcon can sort of just end you with Fair from anything and he is the hype master, Wario Side B's you from something and its seen as "frustrating" while not having the flexibility that the knee has comparatively, or rather "insert strong finisher here" is seen this way when on a fresh character.

Not sure how exactly to describe it, but there's a degree of separation at play here. You can sort of tell when the melee tops sort of just have that extra edge that clearly wouldn't have been made by the PMDT, especially when their designs have similar tools toned down or reworked (like Ness' Magnet vs a Spacie shine, or better Wolf's shine that can be CC'd). Its just a weird disconnect where nobody blinks an eye that Peach is allowed to have a Dsmash that can potentially deal 70% in one go, but on anyone else a worse yet comparable move would cause a riot.

Another thing that is interesting is that there are relatively fewer "PM characters" :

(AKA: Brawl characters that got big changes, aside from like DDD who I dont think actually changed that drastically outside universal stuff)

Then we have altered melee vets:
(AKA: melee characters with big changes)

And the melee tops:
(Relatively little change)

Its like those 7 are part of their own little bubble outside the rest of the game the other 34 are playing, but occasionally come down into it and sort of clash.

Exactly.

For example people complained a lot about easy throw kills either directly or after guaranteed followups in 3.02 so a lot were apparently removed and those would only take stocks at 100+.

But Falcon can still get knees off throws and kill at 70 and that's somehow fair?

And people like it's the hypest thing ever when if a Brawl character were to do something even remotely similar at much higher percents they'd complain about "boring auto-combos".

Fox loses shine invincibility, a bit less damage on lasers and up Smash is PAL level. These are all extremely minor nerfs compared to say Diddy (who's far from even the most extreme example) who lost a banana cutting his zoning in half, you can tech banana throws, side B has drastic endlag now etc.

In one case they change a character's entire game, the other they just make it slightly less effective while retaining everything that made them strong.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No, see, it's okay when Falcon slams you with the most powerful aerial finisher in the game out of one throw when grabs are extremely easy for him to get because ...

um ...

Seriously, what the ****ing ****???

 

[Foo]

Yeah, it's seriously annoying. I was playing falcon against a marth player a while ago in grands and whenever I hit downair to knee everyone spazzed out and the same thing happened whenever he landed a spike on me. I wound up switching to zss and hit what was probably the best combo I've even done in tourney. It started with a dair on one side of the stage, daired him one more time before doing a falling upair, then upairing him up to top platform (this is one battlefield) then he started DIng down and away as I followed him back down the platforms with nair on the otherside and when I landed I shorthop naired him and he thought I was gonna fair him so he was DIng in and then I fast fall faired him.

Nobody even reacted. Like seriously. wtf. I took him from one side of the stage, up the platforms, down the platforms, to the other side and then death with like two dairs, a few upairs and a few nairs. It was as if I just killed him with a spaced bair or something smh. But if I land a downair on falcon that pops people into convenient knee space where they hang for a year, and I manage to not **** it up, I am a god.

Also, yeah, falcon's throws better get nerfed. It's so ******** to play against and it makes me want to RQ. Playing a falcon and dying to upthrow knee 20 times in a 5 game set is disgusting.

 

[JOE!]

They are conditioned to think it is hype since that is what they saw as hype when the meta of melee was being discovered. The hype was grandfathered in unlike cool new stuff.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

They are conditioned to think it is hype since that is what they saw as hype when the meta of melee was being discovered. The hype was grandfathered in unlike cool new stuff.

Which is fine when just being able to L cancel was considered amazing but I think we're kind of past that point.

What's even more absurd is when Falcon players act like their character is bad and they are some underdog for playing him. Yes forgive me for not feeling sorry for a character that has one of the fastest running speeds + guaranteed 70-80 percent kills off a grab.

That's one of the most deadliest combinations in Melee and even moreso in PM when other characters who used to have similar things (at higher percents and on characters with worse grabs/dash speeds) were removed.

He has a "bad" recovery, so does Falco but you don't hear Falco players complaining about playing their character being a struggle. Plus his recovery got buffed in PM anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox is what drives people to actually get better and think smarter. He should receive no nerfs or buffs

By making it a complete uphill battle against him. That's a poor excuse to let him be blatantly better than most of the cast.

Melee bias in PM is pretty prevalent. Baselines are fine but you still consider wren your baselines are off, aka why Fox is top 3 in almost every list I see posted here.

 

[mimgrim]

TL;DR Shine is dumb yo.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

By making it a complete uphill battle against him. That's a poor excuse to let him be blatantly better than most of the cast.

Melee bias in PM is pretty prevalent. Baselines are fine but you still consider wren your baselines are off, aka why Fox is top 3 in almost every list I see posted here.

I quite literally heard the exact same argument for Brawl MK in the past. He forces you to be that much better to beat him so he's fine the way he is.

 

[CORY]

TL;DR Shine is dumb yo.

It's not just shine, though it is a large part of the problem. The bigger fox issue is that he can do everything rather well.

Want to rush down? You can do that(though it's not always the best choice...). Shine definitely helps here.

Wanna camp? You have a full screen, land cancelable blaster and one if the highest run speeds in the game. You can Aldo counter camp with your indefinitely lingering reflector.

Then, your speed let's you just bait people hard (presumably after you just got them to approach you after some laser camping) and punish with your absurdly damaging attacks.

And then, you can kill very early with an absurdly powerful (and safe!) usmash. Or just get that gimp with your shine.

Fox has too many options that he can safely use at once without too much trouble or commitment.

If fox couldn't straight camp as he does, that would remove some of the problems, IMO. Then tone down his usmash and a lot of the issues are solved.

All IMO, of course.

 

[Foo]

If the PMDT is seriously following that logic and saying "every character has to be significantly worse than fox" as a balance benchmark, I'll quit the friggin game lol. That's not how benchmarks work. A decent benchmark would be trying to make every character exactly as good as peach. (though she needs to not be able to pull items or at least nerf her beam sword holy ****).

Also, said it before and I'll say it again. Fox would be a top tier even if he didn't have shine at all. He is good to outstanding at basically everything and could easily replace shine with his insanely good jab for a much more fair potentially punishable pressure.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If the PMDT is seriously following that logic and saying "every character has to be significantly worse than fox" as a balance benchmark, I'll quit the friggin game lol. That's not how benchmarks work. A decent benchmark would be trying to make every character exactly as good as peach. (though she needs to not be able to pull items or at least nerf her beam sword holy ****).

Also, said it before and I'll say it again. Fox would be a top tier even if he didn't have shine at all. He is good to outstanding at basically everything and could easily replace shine with his insanely good jab for a much more fair potentially punishable pressure.

I feel like it already is in a way, which is why I'm not as interested in PM over other titles.

 

[Life]

Just gonna throw this out there: Fox with no upB still has a recovery better than Charizard. CHARIZARD. You know, the Flying-type Pokemon?

If anything, Fox being strong is best justified by the fact that Sheik and Falcon are also strong while being much easier to play in matchups that aren't Fox. He keeps them in check.

 

[mimgrim]

It's not just shine, though it is a large part of the problem. The bigger fox issue is that he can do everything rather well.

Want to rush down? You can do that(though it's not always the best choice...). Shine definitely helps here.

Wanna camp? You have a full screen, land cancelable blaster and one if the highest run speeds in the game. You can Aldo counter camp with your indefinitely lingering reflector.

Then, your speed let's you just bait people hard (presumably after you just got them to approach you after some laser camping) and punish with your absurdly damaging attacks.

And then, you can kill very early with an absurdly powerful (and safe!) usmash. Or just get that gimp with your shine.

Fox has too many options that he can safely use at once without too much trouble or commitment.

If fox couldn't straight camp as he does, that would remove some of the problems, IMO. Then tone down his usmash and a lot of the issues are solved.

All IMO, of course.

Your trying to making go on another rant of why I have a problem with Melee Shine (all variants, Wolf's included) that is only apart of he who must not be named and his 2 lackeys by extension, aren't you?

 

[DMG]

Once again we have come full circle, from hating Fox back down to hating Falcon, and then onto some ramblings about Olimar that probably don't matter. I mean really, who are we kidding? Olimar is just a bit of depressing, demonic background buzzing noises in some fragmented part of our imagination. He's a Space delivery guy who oppresses entire races of strange vegetable beings.


Do you really want to ask for buffs, for a guy that forgot to check his alien vegetable slave master privilege? Nay

 

[PlateProp]

Olimar is good tho

Steelgutley/robosteven are just like Lucario players who think Lucario has a **** neutral

Only legit problem is his up b

edit: /s before I die