Player -0
Smash Hero
They're reallyyyy situational to pull off in my experience. It's almost TLink's arrows situational for combos.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
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- 1,922
TBF, the Falco comparison is pretty poor.
We have streaming and online boards like this so information is so easy to get. It's easy for people to know what is efficient, so people playing catchup is far easier and it also top players can get new information and ideas from other top players far quicker (it also incentives top players to get better far quicker because there's a lot more hunger to get to their level). As such, people get better far quicker and far more technical (it took less then a year for the "impossible Zero tech" in Marvel to become BNB, I mean would you believe that people said that about Zero in early UMvC3, and that it wasn't just a minority? )
And hey, the fact that we have the same fundamentals as another game helps, we don't have that year of getting use to the game, people are have a good idea on how to perform well and understanding properties?
Am I saying that we're at the peak of tech? Heck no, but I'd say a year in PM is like three years of growth of mid-early Melee at least. And it has a higher skill floor then early Melee because learning how to implement tech isn't just "something the top players can do" it's just "what's necessary to even get close to success". We can't play the "give it time to grow card" as much as people say... especially considering quite a few of the top players have been playing PM since 2.0.
We have streaming and online boards like this so information is so easy to get. It's easy for people to know what is efficient, so people playing catchup is far easier and it also top players can get new information and ideas from other top players far quicker (it also incentives top players to get better far quicker because there's a lot more hunger to get to their level). As such, people get better far quicker and far more technical (it took less then a year for the "impossible Zero tech" in Marvel to become BNB, I mean would you believe that people said that about Zero in early UMvC3, and that it wasn't just a minority? )
And hey, the fact that we have the same fundamentals as another game helps, we don't have that year of getting use to the game, people are have a good idea on how to perform well and understanding properties?
Am I saying that we're at the peak of tech? Heck no, but I'd say a year in PM is like three years of growth of mid-early Melee at least. And it has a higher skill floor then early Melee because learning how to implement tech isn't just "something the top players can do" it's just "what's necessary to even get close to success". We can't play the "give it time to grow card" as much as people say... especially considering quite a few of the top players have been playing PM since 2.0.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Pretty much this @ Meta Development.
Sure, the game is much fresher than melee, but most of the universal stuff has been more or less gotten down pat. Many characters are also somewhat close to being optimized as they have changed relatively little from previous iterations. Along with the ability to share info so quickly with things like PM/Reddit and Smashboards, actual meta development should happen at super speed compared to Melee or such.
@Hungry Headcrab got 4th. He regularly places well out over there. Dunno where to watch the matches though.
Agi
Smash Lord
They'll be on the 62bitgaming Twitch archives.
http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/profile/past_broadcasts
http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/profile/past_broadcasts
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
There's waaaay more to developing a game's meta than tech. Technical stuff is like, the floor level of development. Some things like double shining and such didn't develop any earlier in melee because it wasn't viewed as useful for the amount of grinding required for it, since nobody's OoS game was like, frame perfect grounded shines at the time. But there's more to matchups than "wow he has this tech, he's suddenly better at the matchup!" The kind of thing would be like, learning what moves beat out other moves, whether or not you should stay grounded in certain situations so you can respond to what they do or if you should challenge them directly in the air; optimizing punishments so you send them off at an angle you can deal with at a percent you can deal with, without getting interrupted by them in the middle of your punishment; learning when new moves open up as approach options based on their positioning (like near an edge), their percent, whether or not they are likely to be CCing; learning when you can score some extra damage on their shield while being safe from their best OoS options; etc etc. I only bring it up like this because both the example you gave and the conclusion about PM's level of meta development you gave both mentioned only things like tech skill, when really that's the precursor to meta development and generally not the meta development itself. It seems to be a common belief among mediocre or new players that meta development = discovering new tech or mastering better tech, when this is really far from the truth, so I address your post this way to hopefully prevent that misconception from spreading worse than it already is
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MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
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- 1,922
The more you know about execution however, the more you understand its proper application and the appropriate situations to use it.
Of course tech isn't everything, but it does allow options to control matchups differently, and thus push for people to counter those options in other ways. It may sound silly, but every time you successfully push for unique ways to control your character, you push your opponent to find unique ways to counter it. Clearly, that does not all revolve around tech skill, as you said just know how to react to a situation is important, but tech skill is an easy thing for people to understand, so it's very simple to use as an example.
Of course tech isn't everything, but it does allow options to control matchups differently, and thus push for people to counter those options in other ways. It may sound silly, but every time you successfully push for unique ways to control your character, you push your opponent to find unique ways to counter it. Clearly, that does not all revolve around tech skill, as you said just know how to react to a situation is important, but tech skill is an easy thing for people to understand, so it's very simple to use as an example.
D
Deleted member
Guest
this is way wrong. usually expanded tech leads to even worse meta progression because suddenly you can do even more things in any given situation and all of your new options are bad and you dont even know it. tech expands your options, but that doesnt optimize your play- it almost always complicates the process. taking meta development from some no-name on reddit is a joke. for every MU you think you've solved, theres a player that could change your opinion in 10 minutes of playing it out and thats WITH our top players making dozens of mistakes every match (and we do btw, but you dont know what they are because the meta isnt developed). you got this wide open field where you can make huge strides above your peers with careful labwork and testing, and you want to screw yourself by missing out on that stuff to play another character?
So after watching the NWM, i have a lot of things on my mind. The only thing related to tier list however, is that i now think that Wolf is #2 in the game behind Fox. Half the time Chillin was playing out of his mind, like the double dunks vs Odds, game 10 of GF when he got all 4 kills off shine> flash, amazing angles for sweetspot recoveries, and mastery of flash shortens. The other half he played like ****, such as trying to go deep against DDD and getting reverse edge guarded, and SD multiple times. This really made me think about something the_NZA said which was that only at most half of Wolf's potential has been unlocked yet. If Wolf can be so good with even such little development, once somebody really optimizes him, Wolf will be outstanding.
PlateProp
Smash Master
Playing other characters helps you get a better grasp of what they can do. Then you can apply that against them.
Player -0
Smash Hero
I main random. People have no counter.
Foo
Smash Lord
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steelguttey
mei is bei
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on the topic of secondaries, one of my least favorite parts about this game is that playing fox with shiek secondary means you have nothing but positive matchups. thats ****ing stupid
Player -0
Smash Hero
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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except the part where you don't...
steelguttey
mei is bei
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who beats fox that shiek doesnt
of course
steelguttey
mei is bei
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i will never ever admit that shiek doesnt beat a big body thats impossible
And a 40/41 chance of getting Olimar.
D
Deleted member
Guest
when you play his DDD with your sheik on stream, let me know 10 minutes in advance so i can prepare the popcorn and body lube.
steelguttey
mei is bei
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cmon man
D
Deleted member
Guest
not changing my answer
Foo
Smash Lord
Alright, my sheik that I don't play at all would get absolutely trashed by Ripple, but I can also beat bad foxes with my zss. Doesn't change the matchup. What would it look like with two players of equal skill?
Foo
Smash Lord
And why is that? Only thing I can think of is that needle camping couldn't force D3 to approach. I don't really know anything about the matchup myself, but it seems like sheik would have an amazing punish game. I see him being chain grabbed, gimped and combo'd pretty hard, but I haven't seen it for myself. I am not making a claim one way or the other, I just want to know why you guys think d3 wouldn't lose to sheik. Sheik and fatty's tend to go together like a knife and butter.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
Because ddd outranges sheik's everything
and has disjoint that outranges shieks everything
and just never needs to approach in general
sheik also has a pretty telegraphed recovery and she can't gimp ddd
sheiks gimps rely on poking people just out of range with bairs. ddd has like five jumps and waddledashes he doesn't care, not to mention that all of ddd's aerials outrange sheiks
and has disjoint that outranges shieks everything
and just never needs to approach in general
sheik also has a pretty telegraphed recovery and she can't gimp ddd
sheiks gimps rely on poking people just out of range with bairs. ddd has like five jumps and waddledashes he doesn't care, not to mention that all of ddd's aerials outrange sheiks
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Aaand don't forget that Sheik's aerial mobility is on the same level of ****tiness as Deeds, but Deeds has so many recovery tools it's more or less trivial for him to cruise out there way offstage and whack her away while Sheik can do diddly about it. It's not like Dedede is spacing Jiggly bairs here, he's swinging a great stonking hammer that doesn't give a **** about Deeds' bad aerial mobility. With Deeds' weight and fallspeed Sheik has like no reliable kill setups on Dedede, can't edgeguard him, and Deeds' air camping + waddles means he doesn't care about needle camping. Boop.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Da crawl powers though.
That's probably the joke though.
I feel like you may have messed up that ratio.
That's probably the joke though.
Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Um, Sheik can edgeguard Dedede. As long as she takes away one of his jumps its actually not that hard.
EDIT: Actually I take it back. It is kind of hard, but she can still do it. Also throw DI mixup into Fair or UpAir kills Dedede alright.
EDIT: Actually I take it back. It is kind of hard, but she can still do it. Also throw DI mixup into Fair or UpAir kills Dedede alright.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
tl;dr sheik is needles into edge guarding and DDD doesnt care about needles much and also wins out on edge guards.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Just needle, edgeguard, and grab harder. Sheik loses to no mortal, especially not a silly penguin.
How does Olimar do against DDD? I remember people used to say it was bad for him in 3.02, but I haven't even looked in Olimar thread since the tragic accident.
How does Olimar do against DDD? I remember people used to say it was bad for him in 3.02, but I haven't even looked in Olimar thread since the tragic accident.
steelguttey
mei is bei
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my training partner is a d3 main (lpag) and we both think d3 wins it pretty hard. thankfully d3 has slow options getting pikmin off him cus all of his options are slow lmao
steelguttey
mei is bei
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olimar winning mu's?
If you play like a huge loser, Sheik wins every almost match up in the game that isn't spacies.
People need to stop approaching D3 while simultaneously preventing themselves from getting locked down in corners. I feel like everyone plays the neutral wrong in that MU.
People need to stop approaching D3 while simultaneously preventing themselves from getting locked down in corners. I feel like everyone plays the neutral wrong in that MU.
steelguttey
mei is bei
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something something jumping something something d3 wins
https://www.facebook.com/265878373825/videos/10153251398528826/
It keeps rejecting my attempts to embed, but this is how I imagine Ripple after flying up to the skies and beating someone
It keeps rejecting my attempts to embed, but this is how I imagine Ripple after flying up to the skies and beating someone