Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

https://www.facebook.com/265878373825/videos/10153251398528826/

It keeps rejecting my attempts to embed, but this is how I imagine Ripple after flying up to the skies and beating someone

THAT'S A REALLY SPECIFIC VIDEO.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

So what are the overall impressions on Ivysaur and Donkey Kong? I'm certain they've been talked about at some point but I'm not going to weed through 700 pages to find it lol.

 

[Boiko]

So what are the overall impressions on Ivysaur and Donkey Kong? I'm certain they've been talked about at some point but I'm not going to weed through 700 pages to find it lol.

Pretty sure most people consider them on the lower end of the spectrum. DK's entire game is contingent upon getting a grab, which a lot of characters have the tools to prevent. I don't think Ivy is so bad personally, more of a mid tier character. I feel that a lot of her attacks are punishable on reaction due to either the wind up (fair) or the end lag (almost everything else). Plus she has a tether recovery, which is never good.

 

[steelguttey]

So what are the overall impressions on Ivysaur and Donkey Kong? I'm certain they've been talked about at some point but I'm not going to weed through 700 pages to find it lol.

theres a search function homie

 

[DMG]

Back on page 244, I said this about Ivy

On page 666, I said this about DK

 

[Ripple]

Pretty sure I have the most anti meta / different neutral out there of any player.

If waiting was simply enough to beat me, I wouldn't be getting top places at tournaments

 

[Player -0]

TLink/Link sounds fun vs. DDD.

Chuck bombs up and they'll likely come down. Also huge disjointed Up Air that I don't have to play the mixup game with. Hype.

 

[MagnesD3]

Just curious but is there a general consensus on what characters need heavy changes, little changes and ones that just shouldn't be touched at all?

 

[DMG]

Just curious but is there a general consensus on what characters need heavy changes, little changes and ones that just shouldn't be touched at all?

Bowser almost fits all of those qualifications at the same time, strangely enough

 

[Boiko]

If waiting was simply enough to beat me, I wouldn't be getting top places at tournaments

We both know nothing is a simple as that.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Just curious but is there a general consensus on what characters need heavy changes, little changes and ones that just shouldn't be touched at all?

Game and Watch is stuck in 3.0 right now and I'd like to see him changed

 

[Problem2]

https://www.facebook.com/265878373825/videos/10153251398528826/

It keeps rejecting my attempts to embed, but this is how I imagine Ripple after flying up to the skies and beating someone

DMG.... the **** man?? xDDDD

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Strong Bad put Lucario as second place. Does that mean he's going to get nerfed super hard in 3.6?

 

[CELTiiC]

Strong Bad put Lucario as second place. Does that mean he's going to get nerfed super hard in 3.6?

Lucario will probably see some nerfs, yes, but I wouldn't correlate where Strongbad puts a character on his tier list to how severe of a nerf that character is going to receive. That is kind of ludicrous.

 

[PlateProp]

ASC removal when

 

[TheGravyTrain]

ASC isn't broken at all. Look at the frame data. Its basically makes all moves have 17 frames of endlag. It barely makes a difference for tilts on shield (it makes all jabs but the last). I probably should double check all this... Pretty sure. In general its almost always better to cancel into another move.

 

[DMG]

ASC isn't broken at all. Look at the frame data. Its basically makes all moves have 17 frames of endlag. It barely makes a difference for tilts on shield (it makes all jabs but the last). I probably should double check all this... Pretty sure. In general its almost always better to cancel into another move.

Making all your moves a standard amount of lag after generating a hit is pretty nifty. Marth would kill to have that at lower % when he hits someone with the early part of his Fair

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Lucario will probably see some nerfs, yes, but I wouldn't correlate where Strongbad puts a character on his tier list to how severe of a nerf that character is going to receive. That is kind of ludicrous.

I think that's a fair assumption considering he has significant influence on development.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Making all your moves a standard amount of lag after generating a hit is pretty nifty. Marth would kill to have that at lower % when he hits someone with the early part of his Fair

But if we are talking combos, he has much better ones by going into new moves. I was responding into its use for shield pressure.

 

[Foo]

Lucario is one of the few characters on my list whose placing is significantly up in the air. He could be ~Falcon level on my list, it is uncertain. Lucario's matchup spread remains to be seen, partially because the best Lucario lives in an area that never uploads videos. I remain unconvinced of his supposedly "poor matchups" because there's rarely data to back them up in either way.

Just gonna put this quote out there. Especially since it's not a full patch, it could really go either way.


(Also, **** all you guys. On all of my really thought out high effort posts I'm lucky if I get one like. However, I literally just post the goddamn fox smily and it gets 15 ****ing likes like **** I am not sure if I've gotten that many goddamn likes on any of my other ****ing posts all for posting a ****ty ****ing fox smily with no thought or effort **** all of you. ****)

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Well either way if it's not this patch, when 4.0 comes out it seems he's almost guaranteed to get nerfed hard. I feel there's no point learning his tech than since it might not even be possible in later releases.

 

[Idostuff]

Well either way if it's not this patch, when 4.0 comes out it seems he's almost guaranteed to get nerfed hard. I feel there's no point learning his tech than since it might not even be possible in later releases.

First of all, that is a pretty crappy attitude to have about a character and this game in general. Secondly, any changes made to character at this point will be affecting minor attributes of their strength and frame data. Any tech you learn now will almost always be the same in a later patch, or only have minor changes that are easy to adjust to.

specifically to Lucario, if he gets nerfed at all, it will probably be something along the lines of removing the invincibility from his down-b cancel once he starts his attack. Not removing tech all together

 

[AceGamer]

I doubt anyone is gonna get major nerfs anymore after what 3.5 did to everyone. The only character I can see getting "majorly" nerfed is G&W since he plays like he's from 3.02 lol. Unless he's supposed to be like this??

 

[JustSomeScrub]

First of all, that is a pretty crappy attitude to have about a character and this game in general. Secondly, any changes made to character at this point will be affecting minor attributes of their strength and frame data. Any tech you learn now will almost always be the same in a later patch, or only have minor changes that are easy to adjust to.

specifically to Lucario, if he gets nerfed at all, it will probably be something along the lines of removing the invincibility from his down-b cancel once he starts his attack. Not removing tech all together

It's called being smart. Why invest 100s, for some 1000s of hours into a character that might become either obsolete or drastically different soon?

Especially when a Melee player can come along and do much better than you because their character(s) didn't/do not get changed nearly as much?

I think it's pretty telling when top Melee players that don't care about or play the game end up doing extremely well, better than nearly all actual dedicated PM players.

With that said maybe they'll actually nerf Fox hard this time, we'll see.

 

[CELTiiC]

It's called being smart. Why invest 100s, for some 1000s of hours into a character that might become either obsolete or drastically different soon?

Especially when a Melee player can come along and do much better than you because their character(s) didn't/do not get changed nearly as much?

I think it's pretty telling when top Melee players that don't care about or play the game end up doing extremely well, better than nearly all actual dedicated PM players.

With that said maybe they'll actually nerf Fox hard this time, we'll see.

Though your point is fair, it still is a very poor attitude to have towards the game. If you are that worried about the changes coming in future patches then your solution is pretty simple: don't play brawl characters. If you are worried your time will be lost or your character will be obsolete then don't spend time on a brawl character. It's as simple as that. If you look at players like Junebug, who stuck to their character through the patch and adapted, who are still top PM players in the current meta show it's not an impossible feat. It can be done you need the right mindset, which is apparent you don't have.

 

[Ripple]

Fox is what drives people to actually get better and think smarter. He should receive no nerfs or buffs

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Though your point is fair, it still is a very poor attitude to have towards the game. If you are that worried about the changes coming in future patches then your solution is pretty simple: don't play brawl characters. If you are worried your time will be lost or your character will be obsolete then don't spend time on a brawl character. It's as simple as that. If you look at players like Junebug, who stuck to their character through the patch and adapted, who are still top PM players in the current meta show it's not an impossible feat. It can be done you need the right mindset, which is apparent you don't have.

There are more examples of notable players that fell after major nerfs (such as with Lucas) than the opposite.

That's what I'm getting at. Brawl characters especially the percieved strong ones tend to get bigger changes in PM than Melee characters. And if the solution is just to play Melee characters....why are we playing PM again?

The most recent PM tourny I saw had Puff and Falco in GFs (the MVG one).

PM is in a very odd position right now. If they make Brawl characters strong, people complain it doesn't reward Melee fundamentals enough. If they make Melee characters the strongest then it just becomes Melee.

It will be interesting to see how they approach balance with this in mind.

 

[Ripple]

The most recent mvg tournaments grand finale also had a player who didn't even get top 16 at aftershock. That tournament wasn't cream of the crop pm players. Save for probably ipk, hbox, and Axe, who also quit mid tournament.

 

[LupinX]

I think brawl characters are starting to do well against melee characters in my eyes for example aftershock, it's just that brawl characters have some untapped potential and we are seeing this now. I don't think buffs are needed to the brawl characters (maybe a little buff) and melee characters don't need a nerf (except Fox, moreso on the recovery aspect).

Another question, what do you think about Snake in 3.5? Do you think he needs changes? I think the port priority thing with his grenades or mines is pretty wack. Other than that I think he's pretty fair (except maybe f-smash because it's redundant right now)

 

[Rizner]

First of all, that is a pretty crappy attitude to have about a character and this game in general. Secondly, any changes made to character at this point will be affecting minor attributes of their strength and frame data. Any tech you learn now will almost always be the same in a later patch, or only have minor changes that are easy to adjust to.

specifically to Lucario, if he gets nerfed at all, it will probably be something along the lines of removing the invincibility from his down-b cancel once he starts his attack. Not removing tech all together

People said the same thing during 3.02, and I got bodied for believing them.

At this point it should still be understood that everything is possible to change. No guarantees have been made, and any that will be don't mean much until development is called compete

 

[trash?]

so when salty texas players say "there was no good pm players at this tournament", they just mean "we didn't have sethlon there so it's invalid", right

 

[PlateProp]

ASC isn't broken at all. Look at the frame data. Its basically makes all moves have 17 frames of endlag. It barely makes a difference for tilts on shield (it makes all jabs but the last). I probably should double check all this... Pretty sure. In general its almost always better to cancel into another move.

Come back and tell me this with a straight face after IPK carries you to the top of dreamland because of ASC

 

[Deleted member]

so when salty texas players say "there was no good pm players at this tournament", they just mean "we didn't have sethlon there so it's invalid", right

yes that is the literal translation

edit: ASC is definitely broken, but i dont think its too good. simply breaking gameplay while not showing any meaningful degeneracy is fine imo.

 

[DMG]

so when salty texas players say "there was no good pm players at this tournament", they just mean "we didn't have sethlon there so it's invalid", right

What tourney

Actual Texan accent would make it sound like "Dadgummit this rodeo ain't nuthin but a steamin' Cow pie if there ain't no Boss Hog around!"


(Quote by PlateProp that got eaten) - Something Dreamland off the top
Edit #2

Come back and tell me this with a straight face after IPK carries you to the top of dreamland because of ASC

To be fair, he probably meant how ASC is applied when the opponent is grounded, where his statements are much more accurate

 

[DMG]

Edit: Hmm Smashboards ate my edit, oops DP

 

[DrinkingFood]

ASC isn't broken at all. Look at the frame data. Its basically makes all moves have 17 frames of endlag. It barely makes a difference for tilts on shield (it makes all jabs but the last). I probably should double check all this... Pretty sure. In general its almost always better to cancel into another move.

It's 16 frames endlag. Which is barely anything.
Sheik's ftilt has over 20 frames depending on what frame hitbox lands
ROB's dthrow has 17 frames endlag
ROB's strong hit of fair has 23-24
ROB's JAB1 has 15-17 depending on what frame hits (this is actually kinda below average depending on whose jab you look at)
obviously I mostly know ROB ones off the top of my head
ASC is more akin to giving everything jab endlag (on-hit) which is kinda absurd
Not to mention aura sphere charge has hitbox frame 3. So it's basically jab endlag with another jab hitbox (or multiple repeating ones) thrown in there because **** you. Plus at the same time you can use it to charge your projectile if you delay slightly. And you can use it to improve his bad aerial mobility.

 

[Player -0]

D-Smash and Down-B need to not cover the ledge lmao.

 

[Shadic]

I think that's a fair assumption considering he has significant influence on development.

You vastly overestimate the influence one person has in development.

Just because Strong Bad is vocal/prominent outside the development team, doesn't mean he's steering the ship or anything. Far from it.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

re: fox and sheik matchups

doesn't rob beat both?

 

[CORY]

You vastly overestimate the influence one person has in development.

Just because Strong Bad is vocal/prominent outside the development team, doesn't mean he's steering the ship or anything. Far from it.

C'mon, man. You didn't need to shatter the illusion so harshly.

Everything's still strong bad's fault in my heart.