Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

I use to do that in 3.02 (where I started with in P:M) and stayed that way until 3.5 came out and Tink finally just clicked perfectly.

The thing is I've been playing for 13 months now.

 

[Rizner]

I don't 100% disagree, but I do think I depends on the character you main. Yeah bowser probably needs a secondary because some mus are unplayable. But for the most part most characters don't need to switch off for their bad MU's because they are manageable (except I think a good number shouldn't even try to fight fox).

I'd say like 6 characters don't need a secondary (c'mon, you can't just ignore fox)

Having said that, I believe most players can get better results by getting their main better. Then again, most players aren't at a point to contend for #1 at a large ish tournament

 

[eideeiit]

I'd say like 6 characters don't need a secondary (c'mon, you can't just ignore fox)

Fox, Wolf, Falco, Marth, Roy, ROB?

I'd also add Diddy and Mewtwo. Maybe Ike and Lucas.

 

[Life]

Sheik?

10dthrows

 

[Narpas_sword]

I think what's most important is someone to kill the robot. Or maybe we can just delete R.O.B. from the game and everyone will be happier.

Im lucky, or Unlucky enough to have not played a decent ROB.

the last one i played i beat out by retreating Ftilts. and running iceUpsmash if he approached with airdash =/

 

[JOE!]

The interesting part of dual mains is it becomes pokemon.

Like, You want to find someone who covers potential unfavorable Mus, and eventually I can see the meta revolving around finding those pairs

 

[Chevy]

Im lucky, or Unlucky enough to have not played a decent ROB.

the last one i played i beat out by retreating Ftilts. and running iceUpsmash if he approached with airdash =/

I'm actually willing to believe that it becomes not so bad with actual match-up knowledge. I haven't lost to any real R.O.B.s, but I have lost to air-dash n-air on netplay too many times. I'll probably change my mind later, but I feel at this point that Samus has the tools to win any matchup, it can just be difficult to apply the right tools sometimes.

 

[Deleted member]

no one needs a secondary

no johns

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm actually willing to believe that it becomes not so bad with actual match-up knowledge. I haven't lost to any real R.O.B.s, but I have lost to air-dash n-air on netplay too many times. I'll probably change my mind later, but I feel at this point that Samus has the tools to win any matchup, it can just be difficult to apply the right tools sometimes.

Airdash nair isn't what real ROB's do?
huh.
Even on netplay it's fairly telegraphed unless you're running 652 with a 2 port mayflash then yeah 10+ frames of lag isn't gonna let you react to it

 

[Ripple]

I seriously think that discounting olimar, only like 4-5 characters absolutely need secondaries

 

[DrinkingFood]

that's kinda out there tbh
if a character just has 10 matchups that are worse than even, that's several times a tournament you may have to bet on 40-60 odds against you, or worse, assuming the other player is at your level
you can't really just say "Just become a god at the matchup" because they could do the same thing which is kinda what determines the matchup "value" so to speak
is when you have two players good at the matchup
so betting on winning that more often than not is a bad bet

 

[FreeGamer]

if fox isn't in your character pool, you're doing it wrong

 

[DMG]

if fox Captain Falcon isn't in your character pool your 100% main, you're doing it wrong

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I seriously think that discounting olimar, only like 4-5 characters absolutely need secondaries

Out of curiosity, which 4-5 characters do you think need secondaries?

 

[941]

Ice Climbers have at least 3 MUs that are 70-30 or worse. I don't think they absolutely need a secondary, but it's probably at least worth considering learning one if you intend to play them at the top level.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I just realized ICies by no means have to rely on juggling to build damage or kill, so that'd be another thing they'd have on ROB (or M2 or Yoshi but those seem to be less relevant).

 

[jtm94]

I think Bowser, ICs, Zelda, GnW at the least should have another character to cover bad MUs.
Wario has bad MUs in Marth right? idk how bad that is, but I see Strong Bad use DK for that sometimes.
Does Yoshi have a dumb MU?
DDD seems like the character to have some type of weakness, but I'm changing my mind slowly on him.
Sheik wrecks Link and Snake I would not recommend playing that.

Not sure who else there is, but those are the MUs I've been around.

 

[Strong Badam]

I wish to further explore Wario vs Marth. It feels bad and definitely looks bad on paper, but I guess I haven't really explored it as much as I have other matchups, since I had already developed the DK vs Marth matchup really well.
I beat Dart shortly after 3.5 came out with Wario, he switched to Fox game 2 and still lost.

Wario has a few bad MUs that I think are borderline unwinnable though, I think the char can do fine solo in most metas just not one that's fully representative of the overall metgame. Most of his other MUs are doable even if he's at a disadvantage in a good few.

I do not think PM is a solo-character game and to people who say only 4-5 characters truly need a secondary, I say there are 4-5 characters who don't. Matchup spreads are all over the place due to how balanced the cast is and you've gotta find characters to cover your bad matchups in some cases, especially if those bad MUs are super popular characters.

EDIT: also I have a lot of respect for you Max but yeah Sheik probably doesn't need a secondary, but there are tons of characters that do and going "no johns" when people are trying to figure out the optimal way to enter and perform well in a tournament is pretty silly IMO.

 

[nimigoha]

In no way do I want to start a 'nerf Fox because his MU spread is too good' chain, but I think that even PM could go the way of 20XX (although to a lesser degree) where more and more people have a pocket Fox to deal with their worst matchups. That's at least for 3.5, where I think he can cover a lot of losing MUs for characters, but we'll see how that changes.

As for characters who beat Fox, they would have to be taken into account for whether Fox is the correct secondary/comain/counterpick for your main.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Lol best way to counter fox is to pick fox and play him better than your opponent. Other options are to pick up characters like rob or ddd, and hope said fox player doesn't know how to play the m.u correctly. On that note going to try to do that stupid practice thing and see if that helps my bad matchups

 

[nimigoha]

I don't think that any character 'hard counters' Fox but I think DK has an advantage over him in his ridiculous guaranteed chaingrab/kill setup. and OOS option.

Just like a teeny weeny bit of KB growth on Cargo Up throw @ Strong Badam pretty please?

 

[eideeiit]

Come on. DK may have the advantage on low and mid levels, but not at the top.

Diddy tho? He can actually surpass Fox in neutral once he gets the banana and combos him hard. Then again, I haven't seen anyone but Junebug play the MU and the Foxes didn't really have the greatest of item plays.

 

[trash?]

yeah, I specifically mentioned fox in that post for a reason, he still has bad matchups in this game. shoutouts to DF destroying westballz tho

idk if wes/ripple was a good indicator of fox/ddd, though. westballz let ripple throw out a lot of waddles for the entire set. need more high-level info to ravage through

 

[Soft Serve]

Come on. DK may have the advantage on low and mid levels, but not at the top.

Diddy tho? He can actually surpass Fox in neutral once he gets the banana and combos him hard. Then again, I haven't seen anyone but Junebug play the MU and the Foxes didn't really have the greatest of item plays.

No

Diddy's only saving grace in the mu is that his dash dance game can keep up with fox so if fox approaches poorly he can get a grab/knockdown and tech chase really well

Bananas only help for punishing bad approaches, but fox doesn't need to approach in the mu. Lasers stop peanuts, fox's aerials beat/trade with diddys, shine stops bad bananas usage easily, ad well as making glide toss OoS nearly moot. Running shine approaches also just say no it glide toss anti approach setups. It's horrible. Neutral is significantly in fox's favor, punish game is hard on both sides but fox's is much better (diddy's small size makes sdiing upthrow upair easy, but still combo food and one shine near ledge is a stock.)

Not to mention fox's item throws are just as good/better than diddy's frame wise, and if fox gets the banana at all the mu turns to like 80/20 if the fox has item play (running shine jc banana toss is so stupid good)

It's probably the only bad mu for diddy that he should just not try to play. I just fox ditto it

 

[DrinkingFood]

shout outs to westballz playing the ROB matchup like a first tournament Melee player going fox against a decent peach
*Jump in* **** why didn't he go anywhere
**** why didn't he go anywhere
**** why didn't he go anywhere
**** w̖h̓́y d̴͚i̽dͧn͈'̰t̶͂̔ ͙̅̕he̲ͬ̂ g̞ͅoͬ͊͘ ͕a̖n͒͢y̸w̓̑̚h͇̔e̛̔re
**** w̮̱̖̯̆h̢̓́y͊͂ ͔d̴͚͇ͪͮ͘̕i͇͔̽͊d̟͈ͯͧ͑n͈͓'̰̙ͭt̶̗ͣ̑͂̒̐̔ͪ͋͏̩ ͙̲̳̼̅͂̌̕͟h͓̯̰ê͎̟̲ͬ̂̓͑͢͢͝ ̞ͦg̞̿ͅo̵͉͚ͬ͊̀͘̚ ̨͚͕́̍͒ą̖̯͙̄ͪ̈́ņ̫͙̀͒̊̉ͪ͘͢y̸̱͈̐̃͡w̮͂̓̑̚h͕͇̮̍͌̔ͭ̾͗̊ȩ̛̼ͯͭ͋̔re

 

[trash?]

shut up and let me compliment you, jerk

;;

 

[DrinkingFood]

I can't take the compliment, he literally just let me dsmash tech chase/DD grab into throw offstage into laser
like 7 times

w̮̱̖̯̆h̢̓́y͊͂ ͔d̴͚͇ͪͮ͘̕i͇͔̽͊d̟͈ͯͧ͑n͈͓'̰̙ͭt̶̗ͣ̑͂̒̐̔ͪ͋͏̩ ͙̲̳̼̅͂̌̕͟h͓̯̰ê͎̟̲ͬ̂̓͑͢͢͝ ̞ͦg̞̿ͅo̵͉͚ͬ͊̀͘̚ ̨͚͕́̍͒ą̖̯͙̄ͪ̈́ņ̫͙̀͒̊̉ͪ͘͢y̸̱͈̐̃͡w̮͂̓̑̚h͕͇̮̍͌̔ͭ̾͗̊ȩ̛̼ͯͭ͋̔re

 

[Shadic]

no one needs a secondary

no johns

Kinda easy to say as a Sheik main. Fox probably doesn't need a secondary either, but that doesn't mean that the Bowser, Wario, Ganon etc. mains are slacking just because their character has some hard counters.

 

[941]

I just realized ICies by no means have to rely on juggling to build damage or kill, so that'd be another thing they'd have on ROB (or M2 or Yoshi but those seem to be less relevant).

They are pretty reliant on juggling floaty characters, because they can't combo them out of grabs unless they are near the ledge, or the opponent has terrible DI. If it's a character that can't be chaingrabbed with D-throw, or D-throw > D-air, their best option for building damage is juggling.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh? Couldn't they just set up tech chase situations with throw->fair? what direction does Nana even throw in center stage? Or couldn't you land a Popo grab and have nana fair them back into the ground? ROB's tech rolls aren't exactly good

 

[nimigoha]

Floaty characters can usually DI out of the Dthrow>Fair followup, if not fully at least to the extent where the inner spike hitbox won't hit them and the Fair will just hit them away.

The best IC tech is without a doubt Popo Dthrow > Nana footstool > jab reset > regrab. So escapable, which is what makes it hilarious to pull off on unsuspecting opponents.

 

[Warzenschwein]

random super ******** fox-related train of thought:


What if clanking forced shines into their non-JCable ending lag?

 

[Ripple]

Me vs West isn't an indication of anything. Both played pretty poorly.

you should probably watch me against kels for a much better set

 

[DrinkingFood]

random super ******** fox-related train of thought:


What if clanking forced shines into their non-JCable ending lag?

It would solve nothing really because that's such a rare situation
when it does happen it's totally unintended, there's not any kind of meta revolving around clanking shines

 

[Rizner]

Fox, Wolf, Falco, Marth, Roy, ROB?

I'd also add Diddy and Mewtwo. Maybe Ike and Lucas.

I would say:
Fox, wolf, falco, sheik, falcon
Then a maybe on peach, ddd, roy.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Fox doesn't like to play against fox. Falcon hates g&w jigglypuff falco fox and sheik isn't superfun. Falco hates not always playing perfect to where he wins or loses vs everyone. Rob hates ddd, foxes that know the matchup, and diddy.

Wolf has issues with a cc'able shine, sdi'able nair, and lag on recovery options when forced to go on stage. this makes matchups far more even compared to the other spacies. Marth is really really not hating any m.u too much right now, so meh, still has same problems vs fox, and has to deal with an improved falcon.
Roy hates several characters, Sethlon is just good. And lol to the Ike hate.


Give the designers of pm some credit in that comparatively to other fighters, they have done an amazing job balancing so many characters. Sure everyone has small gripes, I hate not having a kill move till 120 at the edge of the stage, and that the solution to assist all heavy characters is armor, but balance is not the main issue of this patch.

 

[Player -0]

I'm still upset that I suggested D-Throw -> Nana footstool -> regrab and someone told me it didn't work when it does

@ DrinkingFood I don't think I got an answer a bit back. I had asked if there's a reason you don't dash attack to hit people/spacies right before they hit the ground from a move like D-Smadh

 

[Hylian]

They are pretty reliant on juggling floaty characters, because they can't combo them out of grabs unless they are near the ledge, or the opponent has terrible DI. If it's a character that can't be chaingrabbed with D-throw, or D-throw > D-air, their best option for building damage is juggling.

This is true in melee...IC's are much better at comboing floaties out of a grab in PM. Dthrow -> Fair leads to a lot of stuff, Handoff -> uthrow -> fair leads to a lot of stuff depending on platforms, dthrow squall and even blizzard lead to a lot of stuff...

 

[Frost | Odds]

Regarding the secondary stuff:

@ Hylian I definitely should've paid more attention, earlier. Big D didn't deserve to beat me, but I didn't really deserve to win either without having an ICs counter prepared. I wasn't sure whether I should stay Bowser, or break out my Kirby/Zard, or extremely rusty Tink. Probably made the wrong choice. Pls add me on Skype

@ trash? Honestly, I'm still pretty thrilled as well as I did at my first major/national; and I probably wouldn't have if I hadn't devoted the overwhelming majority of my time thus far to Bowser. I'm happy with the results, will crush em next time.

I really, really wanted to just solo main Bowser, but it doesn't seem that's possible in the current patch. I choked pretty hard against Chillin, but played decently well against Dawson's ICs and just couldn't touch them. Will have to invest some time into deciding on a proper secondary.

 

[Ogopogo]

I really, really wanted to just solo main Bowser, but it doesn't seem that's possible in the current patch. I choked pretty hard against Chillin, but played decently well against Dawson's ICs and just couldn't touch them. Will have to invest some time into deciding on a proper secondary.

Here. I'll help you out.


Ta-da! Popo problems are no more.