Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

keeping sleeping on DDD smashboards, GG

smashboards is like 70% people who think ddd is trash then like 10 people who think he's high-mid tier

which is a much larger amount of people than during 2.6 and 3.0

 

[CORY]

i've always abhorred ddd, but i also play ganon and basically die as soon as he bthrows me.

 

[MLGF]

I mean, how could someone like this ever be considered viable?

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OK, but really, DDD is really good and seems to be a hard counter to a lot of higher up characters, so I think he's going to pick up steam soon.

 

[Foo]

I think MK is a fairly average character. He has some great strengths, but he also has some pretty severe weaknesses. He has a lot of trouble killing, dies really early being the second lightest character and a fast faller, weak to cc, has meh throws, and he has a really bad wavedash oos with only an awkward dash attack to clank projectiles meaning he gets wrecked by them hard. That being said, he has a stellar combo game, great speed, lots of options, and a good recovery (side b is really hard to beat out and reverse up-b isn't easy to see coming.)

He's definitely a good character overall, but it seems like a bad idea to solo main him. With characteristics that polarized seems like he'd have a lot of bad matchups.

 

[Ripple]

DDD hard counters nobody and gets hard countered by at least 4 mid/high tiers. 65-35 or worse

He's only going to stay where he is which is like mid tier, or go down as people realize how to beat his neutral game

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why the **** are there >= 2 Foxes in every single doubles match in every major PM tournament

 

[MLGF]

Because doubles Fox is stupidly good.

 

[The Baron]

Why the **** are there >= 2 Foxes in every single doubles match in every major PM tournament

What makes it worse is that it's usually that ugly melee fox costume.

 

[Deleted member]

Why the **** are there >= 2 Foxes in every single doubles match in every major PM tournament

have you seen fox?

 

[Ripple]

have you seen fox?

I haven't. he moves too fast

 

[The Baron]

I haven't. he moves too fast

obviously you've been shined blind. Side note but do you think the wolf matchup is better or worse than the fox match up

 

[Ripple]

its worse because nair shine nair again is a guaranteed shield poke

 

[Jolteon]

MK is literally nothing like Puff, lol, they play neutral completely differently. Puff weaves through the air with her godlike aerial mobility, and MK's aerial mobility is way worse than hers. MK's movement is all ground based, and even without divekick/down b jump refresh bug he's still one of the most mobile characters in the game, given that his ground speed and DD are godlike. Roy/Marth/Sheik and to a lesser extent Fox are much better analogues for MK.

 

[DMG]

MK is like Fox, Sheik, and Falcon rolled up into one. No other comparison is needed

 

[Deleted member]

MK is literally nothing like Puff

hes a ball

gg get ****ed

 

[Foo]

Can we stop saying that every fast brawl non melee high tier character is some combination of sheik and falcon?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Can we stop saying that every fast brawl non melee high tier character is some combination of sheik and falcon?

No

Go back to playing your Falcon Stunsheik

 

[Deleted member]

real talk it seems like theres a lot of hybrid esque chars

wolf = fox + CF for example

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wolf's throws are much more sheik-esque tho
He's foxfalconsheik
Ike is marthfalcon
ZSS is falconsheikmarth
MK is marthsheik+jumps
Zard is sheikmarth+jumps

 

[DMG]

Meanwhile, Captain Falcon is just Captain Falcon

 

[DrinkingFood]

nonsense, falcon is sheikwolf

 

[AceGamer]

I always thought Ike was Marth/Ganon, seems a bit too slow to be Marth/Falcon (in terms of dash and run speed anyway)

 

[jtm94]

Close enough, but I think Ike is Falcon/Roy. It's just the way his things go together as he flies through the air. He can't be Marth because spacing.

Characters are characters, not like who they play similar to has any bearing on their overall goodness.

 

[PlateProp]

Close enough, but I think Ike is Falcon/Roy. It's just the way his things go together as he flies through the air. He can't be Marth because spacing.

Characters are characters, not like who they play similar to has any bearing on their overall goodness.

Roy is Marth/Ike, have you not seen his bair

 

[MudkipUniverse]

so, @Odds_

what do you think of the Wolf and IC's matchup for Bowser? you said that there was no way you would win if chillindude was there

 

[Hylian]

Idk about Odds, but I think IC's is bowsers worst match-up by far.

 

[nimigoha]

Blizzard and Ice Block, easiest handoffs ever, several different chain grabs, huge WD>grab range, big target for super secret special kill move. It doesn't look that great.

 

[eideeiit]

Just wondering what makes ICs different than, say, Falcon? DD->grab->air wobble->rest->GGs?

 

[Soft Serve]

Just wondering what makes ICs different than, say, Falcon? DD->grab->air wobble->rest->GGs?

There's two of them

(Also ics dont get punished/edgeguarded as hard as falcon does. Falcon still bodies bowser though)

 

[trash?]

so now that NWM happened, and thus a dude got second basically because he knew to counterpick bowser, I want to make a statement I've always believed more blatant:

if you don't know at least two characters in this game for tournaments, you're a worse player for it

there's a lot of matchups in this game. this isn't melee, where you only need to pay attention to the top 8 and everyone else is bad enough to where you can just adapt on the fly, this is a game where even fox, the dude that's #1 on nearly every top players' tier list, has losing matchups to rando characters like DDD. turns out, when there's forty-one characters (and counting!) in the game, one of them's bound to have a specific skill that screws your character over.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love odds and players like him... but man, this is not that kind of game that lets you specialize. you play someone as polarizing as bowser without any secondaries, I don't know how to not blame you when that inevitably bites you in the backside

 

[Soft Serve]

so now that NWM happened, and thus a dude got second basically because he knew to counterpick bowser, I want to make a statement I've always believed more blatant:

if you don't know at least two characters in this game for tournaments, you're a worse player for it

there's a lot of matchups in this game. this isn't melee, where you only need to pay attention to the top 8 and everyone else is bad enough to where you can just adapt on the fly, this is a game where even fox, the dude that's #1 on nearly every top players' tier list, has losing matchups to rando characters like DDD. turns out, when there's forty-one characters (and counting!) in the game, one of them's bound to have a specific skill that screws your character over.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love odds and players like him... but man, this is not that kind of game that lets you specialize. you play someone as polarizing as bowser without any secondaries, I don't know how to not blame you when that inevitably bites you in the backside

I don't 100% disagree, but I do think I depends on the character you main. Yeah bowser probably needs a secondary because some mus are unplayable. But for the most part most characters don't need to switch off for their bad MU's because they are manageable (except I think a good number shouldn't even try to fight fox).

 

[nimigoha]

I think it will be cool when the characters are developed enough to make a reliable matchup chart and you can see characters that cover each others weak spots. And then people start maining sets of characters to have a near-perfect matchup spread and counter picking gets very in-depth.

Although to be honest right now it looks like a pairing of "___ + Fox" covers matchups pretty well, simply because Fox covers matchups very well. Who covers Fox's bad matchups the best at the moment?

 

[jtm94]

I think there are a few characters who are susceptible to CPs.
I don't think GnW or Zelda(even more so) can have a lot of success without a secondary to cover Marth/Roy/Link. You can try to be a big man and tough it out, but it's a poor choice if you want to win.
The best candidates for being able to do well against a variety of characters are those with solid movement so you can just camp out your opponents and punish if the MU seems bad.

I think Fox covers Fox's bad MUs very well at the moment.

 

[mimgrim]

I should probably put more effort towards finding a secondary then just "lol friendlies", since I live in a region with a lot of Spacies (mostly Fox and Falco, but Wolf is also played some as well) and a **** ton of Falcon, there are also a lot of Marth's but at least the MU is more bearable overall, and that makes maining Tink rough and a major up-hill battle a lot of the time. But I just can't decide on a secondary, I just keep jumping between flavors of the month really. :L

 

[Life]

I think the relevant question is "what characters are the best at winning tournaments," which, when you get down to it, is what a tier list is all about, nay?

What characters have won a reasonably large PM tournament so far?

 

[Narpas_sword]

I've gone through a handful of secondaries,. my problem is that id rather just play samus in all my matchups.

I have the Standard Samus trouble vs LoZ and FireEmblem, and Falcon, but no one secondary ive played seems to cope with those well.

And i cant commit to learning a spacie, I'm just not fast enough (and light + FF is way too different from Samus Heavy+Floaty for me to cope)

I've tried Toon Link, GaW, Snake, Ness, Falcon, Wolf.

 

[eideeiit]

I've gone through a handful of secondaries,. my problem is that id rather just play samus in all my matchups.

I have the Standard Samus trouble vs LoZ and FireEmblem, and Falcon, but no one secondary ive played seems to cope with those well.

And i cant commit to learning a spacie, I'm just not fast enough (and light + FF is way too different from Samus Heavy+Floaty for me to cope)

I've tried Toon Link, GaW, Snake, Ness, Falcon, Wolf.

Dedede? Maybe even Roy, Diddy or Luigi? Just tossing.

Also tfw someone mentions "flavor of the month" on secondaries and for you it's pretty much "flavor of the week" on mains.

I'll never quit sucking if this keeps up.

 

[Chevy]

I've gone through a handful of secondaries,. my problem is that id rather just play samus in all my matchups.

I have the Standard Samus trouble vs LoZ and FireEmblem, and Falcon, but no one secondary ive played seems to cope with those well.

And i cant commit to learning a spacie, I'm just not fast enough (and light + FF is way too different from Samus Heavy+Floaty for me to cope)

I've tried Toon Link, GaW, Snake, Ness, Falcon, Wolf.

I think what's most important is someone to kill the robot. Or maybe we can just delete R.O.B. from the game and everyone will be happier.

 

[mimgrim]

Also tfw someone mentions "flavor of the month" on secondaries and for you it's pretty much "flavor of the week" on mains.

I'll never quit sucking if this keeps up.

I use to do that in 3.02 (where I started with in P:M) and stayed that way until 3.5 came out and Tink finally just clicked perfectly.

 

[Player -0]

so now that NWM happened, and thus a dude got second basically because he knew to counterpick bowser, I want to make a statement I've always believed more blatant:

if you don't know at least two characters in this game for tournaments, you're a worse player for it

there's a lot of matchups in this game. this isn't melee, where you only need to pay attention to the top 8 and everyone else is bad enough to where you can just adapt on the fly, this is a game where even fox, the dude that's #1 on nearly every top players' tier list, has losing matchups to rando characters like DDD. turns out, when there's forty-one characters (and counting!) in the game, one of them's bound to have a specific skill that screws your character over.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love odds and players like him... but man, this is not that kind of game that lets you specialize. you play someone as polarizing as bowser without any secondaries, I don't know how to not blame you when that inevitably bites you in the backside

@Odds_ Has mentioned he's thinking about picking up Olimar or Pit or some dude.