Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

honestly why do mk players underrate him so hard

hes ****ing amazing

"I hate his Dair now, it doesn't belong in PM!"

*Looks at 3.02 MK Dair*

 

[steelguttey]

honestly mk players are the hugest *******

just because you lose your stupid divekick doesnt mean you have tos top playing your stupid character

 

[Boiko]

I don't think Meta Knight is amazing by any means. I think he has too many weaknesses and not enough strengths. If you're playing against a character that can't really be gimped, he'll have an extraordinarily hard time killing. He's a bad combo weight and doesn't have the best recovery tools. I mean, his recovery is good, but it's somewhat easy to predict and shut down. He only has one move to stop projectiles, so getting through campy projectile walls is difficult because you literally need to shield and weave rather than just lolfoxnairing through. His best kill option against floaties, up airs > shuttle loop is easy to SDI. Plus he's stupid weak to crouch cancelling. More so than a lot of other chraacters. I don't think he's bad. But just mid tier.

 

[DMG]

He can still play left right left right better than a lot of chars, hard to write off a character totally when they still have that to work with

 

[Boiko]

Yeah, he can, but that doesn't mean much when he doesn't get a lot out of it because you can just CC everything but his grab.

 

[jtm94]

His aerials are kind of fast or something.... All of his options are kind of fast or something.
Also is nair is good or something. Just nair at them harder.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't think Meta Knight is amazing by any means. I think he has too many weaknesses and not enough strengths. If you're playing against a character that can't really be gimped, he'll have an extraordinarily hard time killing. He's a bad combo weight and doesn't have the best recovery tools. I mean, his recovery is good, but it's somewhat easy to predict and shut down. He only has one move to stop projectiles, so getting through campy projectile walls is difficult because you literally need to shield and weave rather than just lolfoxnairing through. His best kill option against floaties, up airs > shuttle loop is easy to SDI. Plus he's stupid weak to crouch cancelling. More so than a lot of other chraacters. I don't think he's bad. But just mid tier.

Oh pfffff

MK's made of recovery moves, it's only fair that they're easy to intercept. He still has a powerful mix-up in terms of DC to the ledge, which is short-distance but has comparable start-up to Mewtwo's teleport and is pretty much impossible to intercept too. Still in the top 10 for recoveries in PM, easy.

The only characters he can't gimp that he'd struggle against are Mewtwo and Zelda because of range/din's respectively. He's stil got a lot of confirms into both Shuttle Loop and DC and I've yet to see MK players make good use of the new dair. MK is very much top 15, hovering close to the top 10 probably.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think he's great, but probably not top 15

I don't Think he's better than tink/falcon/marth/diddy/lucas/mewtwo/samus/yoshi/zss/peach/wario/mario, who are all floating around that end of top 10 to top 20 ish range.

His super left right Bros and his edgeguarding is amazing, and I'd think he still has a great MU chart. I think he's in a similar spot as Diddy in that he has a lot of good mus, but then struggles vs spacies and floaties you cant gimp.

 

[FreeGamer]

how is wario still that good

he's been nerfed considerably every build since 2.6

 

[CORY]

it's all relative. if the cast around him was nerfed as well, then he's likely at least the same position as he was before.

if the changes were better for wario than they were for the cast around him, he can end up better in the end.

3.5 was a large tone down patch, overall, so if your character came out of it less changed than others, your character probably got better, relative to the cast.

 

[FreeGamer]

idk man, kirby was supposed to be only slightly nerfed but he struggles a lot more in 3.5 than in 3.02

 

[Boiko]

If the (arguable) top three 3.02 Meta Knight mains all dropped him in 3.5, I think there's a reason for that.

 

[MLGF]

How is Ike still good? He's been nerfed every version since 2.0!

And MK is solid, like damn you guys sleep on him. I'm still labbing him and I feel like he has so much potential that I haven't even begun to tap despite putting a lot of focus on him.

 

[Ripple]

maybe because they were so greatly carried by the character and didn't want to put in more work to edgeguarding with more than nair and bair covering every characters' every option for recovery.

or they just wanted a free back to the stage option when above all characters

or they liked obscene grab stuff.

 

[Strong Badam]

how is wario still that good

he's been nerfed considerably every build since 2.6

He got a few buffs in 3.5 amidst a couple nerfs. He's a pretty capable character overall despite his flaws IMO.

 

[supascoot]

how is wario still that good

he's been nerfed considerably every build since 2.6

It a massive stretch to call the 3.02 -> 3.5 changes to wario large nerfs. Compared to other chars he was spared the removal of some of his best options, while the changes that were made were just to fine tune his already balanced moveset. While he has some polarised MUs, overall wario seems to be one of the most well put together brawl characters on the entire roster.

Wario also remains good because he has decent representation at a tournies, which is extremely important to tier position in such a broad game. It makes me wonder is characters like squirtle are low tier worthy, or if its just the lack of representation putting them there

 

[Boiko]

maybe because they were so greatly carried by the character and didn't want to put in more work to edgeguarding with more than nair and bair covering every characters' every option for recovery.

or they just wanted a free back to the stage option when above all characters

or they liked obscene grab stuff.

Lol @ Plup being carried by his character.

 

[DabBen]

YOU CAN CHARGE WARIO'S FOWARD THROW, NUFF SAID.

 

[CORY]

that doesn't say anything, actually.

i'm glad you're so enthused about your second post, though.

 

[Ripple]

I said maybe

 

[trash?]

MK's boring to play

he's not even remotely bad (at worst, his weight's a bit silly, but that's about it), but the reason people dropped him en-masse is because all the changes made him from a mobility-heavy character that can find ways around everything into a fast-falling jigglypuff

source: I was the one telling you all he was fantastic since 2.6

 

[MLGF]

Maybe DDD is fraudulent and only frauds use him.
I'm not saying whether he is or not, but maybe. I dunno.

But seriously, I do agree with Ripple about MK. I tried telling MK players that he's solid right now and they need to rethink how to use him, oh god the backlash I got...

And I think he was really boring in 3.0 because you kinda did the same thing over and over. His gameplan consisted of a lot of the same stuff every game and he could usually get away with it every match. Sure, his tools are less over the top, but at least I have to think now.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

all the changes made him from a mobility-heavy character that can find ways around everything into a fast-falling jigglypuff

Half agree with this. He had his powerful mobility mix-ups taken away but he's more than a fast-falling jigglypuff. Marth/Jiggs hybrid is a good thing to be in this game, just ask DDD.

 

[trash?]

1) a "marth/jiggs hybrid" is basically how melee jigglypuff played to begin with, bairtrain and all

2) again, being a fast-falling jigglypuff is not a bad thing balance-wise, but it's pretty clearly not what people want out of MK

 

[wiiztec]

DDD is heavy though

 

[FreeGamer]

He got a few buffs in 3.5 amidst a couple nerfs. He's a pretty capable character overall despite his flaws IMO.

pardon my scrub question, but what was buffed aside from d-smash and the universal dacus timing?

 

[Strong Badam]

The most notable ones are more powerful Waft, the change to Chomp throw KBG, and the decrease in endlag his Bair got. Wario's DACUS did not change in frame window; only characters who had a jumpsquat of 4 (Wolf, Marth, Roy, G&W) got easier DACUSes. Changelist is public on the PM website btw.

 

[941]

Yoshi has representation, Ice Climbers have representation.

Sonic, Samus, Olimar, (MK, Pit) are very arguable for not much mid level and above rep though.

There are really only 2 notable ICs players, and neither of them have attended any majors, and the only notable player either of them have played against is Metroid. I suppose it's more representation than some characters have, but I wouldn't say it's enough to classify how good/bad ICs really are.

 

[Juushichi]

Fumbles got 17th/333 at BH4 in 3.02 and took a game off of Armada. Beat Tagless Kyle (Silly Kyle?) in losers side Top-32. Unsure about his pools results, though.

Loses to Armada (7th) and Oracle (9th) respectively.

Not sure what you're talking about.

EDIT:

Nobody talks about Midwest East, but we (Michigan, Ohio, somewhat Kentucky) are stronger than a lot of people realize. Took 6+ (none ranked higher than 5th in Ohio) players to Shots Fired and only 2 drowned. 3 had to drop to get home in terrible weather in bracket.

Oddly enough, people still kinda sleep on Ripple but two members of Columbus took Rip to the brink in Losers in his last two trips to this part of the midwest. One missed a rest (Pech), one choked a lead (Carls). But that's okay, I guess lol.

 

[jtm94]

Fumbles was using the infinite too. You have to be good to even set it up in the first place, let alone execute it vs another person. I heard a lot of people talking about him after the tourney.

 

[Rizner]

Fumbles was using the infinite too. You have to be good to even set it up in the first place, let alone execute it vs another person. I heard a lot of people talking about him after the tourney.

lol, he was actually telling me the other day that he'll go to a random tournament and people will say "Oh, I heard you took a game off of Armada" and he doesn't understand how/why they know that because it wasn't streamed or recorded or anything.

He's also gotten the infinite on Heysuess's DDD in bracket, but lost that set. I think he took a game? Maybe not? idk.

But yeah, he is good with Ice Climbers and some people in the Cincinnati/Columbus have picked up secondaries to go against him iirc.

 

[supascoot]

Odds stop being good i thought bowser was bad or something nvm bowser is bad pack it up people

So far some really cool things have been going on at NWM. Amazing of upsets, obscure charcters and a high pm character bracket. Lots to discuss after the fact

 

[didds]

I try not to think about bowser, his design makes my PM hurt

 

[941]

Fumbles did some impressive stuff, but that was before 3.5. I'm sure he's still good, but I don't think he's gone to many tournaments since 3.5 was released. When I said ICs have little representation, I was referring to 3.5 where the meta is very different from 3.0. Most of the changes (at least the intended ones) in 3.5 should benefit ICs, but because they were pretty bad in 3.0, and very few people are playing them now, it's hard to say where 3.5 ICs really should be in a tier list.

 

[xFumbles]

Ice Climbers are broken...in different ways. They have many glitches in movement and Nana's AI that a player must get used to, but they're infinites have expanded and are possible anywhere on the stage rather than just near the ledge. REALISTICLY...ICs are low tier, however, a great player could learn to 0 to death from a grab in any situation. I myself have been waiting to practice hand-off until the next patch, knowing that most of these regrabs are glitches and near impossible to pull off.

 

[Deleted member]

the only true issue ive noted from MK is a lack of a way to establish stage control in the face of a good projectile game. id probably play MK if i wasnt so hardcore stuck on sheik but atm i have no idea how the character is supposed to negotiate characters like samus.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

the only true issue ive noted from MK is a lack of a way to establish stage control in the face of a good projectile game. id probably play MK if i wasnt so hardcore stuck on sheik but atm i have no idea how the character is supposed to negotiate characters like samus.

Movement + Dimensional Cape mixups? Air camping?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

@Odds_ just 3-0'd this thread GG

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

this tournament just doesn't really like tierlists

 

[Deleted member]

keeping sleeping on DDD smashboards, GG