Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

are we talking about how op dk is and ignoring that someone just said fox isnt even top 10

what the **** happened to this thread

 

[FreeGamer]

zelda is bottom 10

is she going to be less-gutted in 3.6?

 

[eideeiit]

Zelda is top 3. She has down-b.

 

[PlateProp]

Everyone is top 10

Except squirtle

He sucks

 

[Ningildo]

We PM Social now, apparently.

Pit is decent. Aerial side-b>Nair to chase onstage is fun, Fair sends of at a great angle for gimping, has controllable arrows for said gimping as well.

Only real issue is being too reliant on tech chases for damage on low percent spacies.

This is an opinion from someone testing the character for one evening, so take that as you will.

 

[Rachman]

are we talking about how op dk is and ignoring that someone just said fox isnt even top 10

what the **** happened to this thread

"Doesn't stand out" was making the point about how I don't think he is good enough to be in a tier of his own, as I believed there are around 10 characters I could lump into "S" tier with him. Upon actually counting out the characters I realized that the characters I would lump into a tier with Fox would be something like R.O.B., Lucario (dunno how passionate any of you all are about theorycrafting and frame-by-frame analysis but Lucario seems completely absurd in many aspects), Wolf, Roy, Falcon, Sheik with Yoshi probably being up there too but his placement being contingent on a few other factors such as the popular characters being those he does well against (Roy, Marth etc). It's entirely possible that I'm extremely far off but your intelligent and informative input didn't exactly do much to sway my opinion.

I didn't mean to say DK was OP if that was in reference to me, I just wanted to hear some the community's opinion on him. He's incredibly interesting to me as I'm not exactly sure what to think about him.

Also curious if it's legitimately possible to react to the DI mix up on Sheik's throws in this game. If anyone knows the # of frames between when the throws are distinguishable and the DI input is read that would be great to know.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I know that my thoughts come with a lot of salt and I'm sure he reciprocates it towards my characters. I've been working on my Falco shield pressure and I'm able to beat his shield grabs more often now. It just sucks because it's literally a death sentence to him getting grabbed, regardless of percent.

I think he's a lot better than people rate him, and is another example of why people with more than 4 tiers in their tier list are misrepresenting the character viability.

 

[Soft Serve]

If dk still had 3.0 upb and invincibility on his arms on nair, he'd be stupid good.

"Doesn't stand out" was making the point about how I don't think he is good enough to be in a tier of his own, as I believed there are around 10 characters I could lump into "S" tier with him. Upon actually counting out the characters I realized that the characters I would lump into a tier with Fox would be something like R.O.B., Lucario (dunno how passionate any of you all are about theorycrafting and frame-by-frame analysis but Lucario seems completely absurd in many aspects), Wolf, Roy, Falcon, Sheik with Yoshi probably being up there too but his placement being contingent on a few other factors such as the popular characters being those he does well against (Roy, Marth etc). It's entirely possible that I'm extremely far off but your intelligent and informative input didn't exactly do much to sway my opinion.

I didn't mean to say DK was OP if that was in reference to me, I just wanted to hear some the community's opinion on him. He's incredibly interesting to me as I'm not exactly sure what to think about him.

Also curious if it's legitimately possible to react to the DI mix up on Sheik's throws in this game. If anyone knows the # of frames between when the throws are distinguishable and the DI input is read that would be great to know.

Fox is easily top 3, if not the best. Lucario is complete utter horse **** design wise, Probably top 10, I want to say top 3 but i think he loses to all the other characters fighting for top 5. Wolf is really good but also has a lot of very simple counterplay around his nair/shine game that hurts him quite a bit if people ever started doing it. You can ASDI down/tech the shines, and you can SDI out of nairs pretty easily and then most characters can come down with a move. Great, but relies on blaster WL a lot.

IIRC, you don't have enough time to react to shiek's throw mixup. Its really fast and the animation is ambiguous at first like marth's fthrow/dthrow mixups. You just have to make a guess.

 

[steelguttey]

"Doesn't stand out" was making the point about how I don't think he is good enough to be in a tier of his own, as I believed there are around 10 characters I could lump into "S" tier with him. Upon actually counting out the characters I realized that the characters I would lump into a tier with Fox would be something like R.O.B., Lucario (dunno how passionate any of you all are about theorycrafting and frame-by-frame analysis but Lucario seems completely absurd in many aspects), Wolf, Roy, Falcon, Sheik with Yoshi probably being up there too but his placement being contingent on a few other factors such as the popular characters being those he does well against (Roy, Marth etc). It's entirely possible that I'm extremely far off but your intelligent and informative input didn't exactly do much to sway my opinion.

I didn't mean to say DK was OP if that was in reference to me, I just wanted to hear some the community's opinion on him. He's incredibly interesting to me as I'm not exactly sure what to think about him.

Also curious if it's legitimately possible to react to the DI mix up on Sheik's throws in this game. If anyone knows the # of frames between when the throws are distinguishable and the DI input is read that would be great to know.

want an intelligent and informative discussion about fox? read this thread

go to any random post on this thread and i guarantee you will see something about fox. stop being lazy

 

[Idostuff]

I don't remember the exact frames on Sheik's back/down throw, but it is not humanly possible to actually DI on reaction for them, you just gotta guess.

As for DK, i think that one of the reasons that people rate him pretty low, is because Strong Bad claims to have developed DK's meta to the point where it he is a "completed" character. Meaning he has no more room to grow (according to SB). going by this theory, we know how good DK is ever going to be, but all other characters have the ability to get better. While everyone else grows, DK stays stagnant. This means that most people place DK very low on the tier list.

 

[Foo]

Yeah, seriously, just search "fox" on this thread only and you will be able to form a short novel on why fox is busted.

I'm not gonna tip toe and say fox is top 3 at least, He's AT LEAST top 1. There's really no getting around it. I would be absolutely shocked if another character dethroned him. I mean, he has what, 4-5 even matchups with only one being potentially a slight disadvantage?

@ Rachman

Here's what stands out about him

Pros:
Insane damage values
Great kill power
really quick kill moves
good recovery
insane disjoint on said recovery
all his moves either kill or combo into kill moves or both (yes, even his recovery)
he has very little lag on most of his kit
unbelievable shield pressure
great combo game
great projectiles
super quick
great platform movement
fast aerials
lingering hitboxes
obscenely good throw game
takes like 6 offstage in a row to get a low % gimp and he can sweetspot from anywhere in range or land on stage with next to no landing lag
can gimp at 0% and beyond
shine
good tech rolls and other defensive stats
great oos

Meh:
doesn't have the best range
lingering hitboxes means he use them offstage unless he is rising
can be combo'd really hard by select members of the cast due to fall speed and weight (but cannot be combo'd at all by select members of the cast)

Cons:
featherweight plus fast faller means you can die early off the side.
my fingers hurt ow

 

[941]

zelda is bottom 10

is she going to be less-gutted in 3.6?

The problem with Zelda is that She is generally considered not fun to play against, and in my experience, characters that people don't think are fun don't get a lot of buffs.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, seriously, just search "fox" on this thread only and you will be able to form a short novel on why fox is busted.

I'm not gonna tip toe and say fox is top 3 at least, He's AT LEAST top 1. There's really no getting around it. I would be absolutely shocked if another character dethroned him. I mean, he has what, 4-5 even matchups with only one being potentially a slight disadvantage?

@ Rachman

Here's what stands out about him

Pros:
Insane damage values
Great kill power
really quick kill moves
good recovery
insane disjoint on said recovery
all his moves either kill or combo into kill moves or both (yes, even his recovery)
he has very little lag on most of his kit
unbelievable shield pressure
great combo game
great projectiles
super quick
great platform movement
fast aerials
lingering hitboxes
obscenely good throw game
takes like 6 offstage in a row to get a low % gimp and he can sweetspot from anywhere in range or land on stage with next to no landing lag
can gimp at 0% and beyond
shine
good tech rolls and other defensive stats
great oos

Meh:
doesn't have the best range
lingering hitboxes means he use them offstage unless he is rising
can be combo'd really hard by select members of the cast due to fall speed and weight (but cannot be combo'd at all by select members of the cast)

Cons:
featherweight plus fast faller means you can die early off the side.
my fingers hurt ow

Don't forget that Fox's oft-touted 'punishability' due to his being a fastfaller is mostly negated since FD/GHZ isn't guaranteed on this stagelist; a lot of launchers can be converting into ground or platform tech chase situations meaning he has more opportunities than average to get out of combos than other characters, until mid percents. Characters that are ACTUALLY combo food:

- Ganon
- Link
- Bowser
- DK
- Ivy

There's a certain weight + fallspeed range that a bunch of characters fall into that result in them being absolutely murdered by like 80% of the cast.

 

[steelguttey]

also roy

roys weight makes him free lmao

 

[FreeGamer]

The problem with Zelda is that She is generally considered not fun to play against, and in my experience, characters that people don't think are fun don't get a lot of buffs.

3.02 Zelda was great to play as, but terrible to play against.

3.5 Zelda is trash to play as, and easy to play against.

Either way you go with her design, someone's jimmies will be rustled.

 

[Strong Badam]

As for DK, i think that one of the reasons that people rate him pretty low, is because Strong Bad claims to have developed DK's meta to the point where it he is a "completed" character. Meaning he has no more room to grow (according to SB). going by this theory, we know how good DK is ever going to be, but all other characters have the ability to get better. While everyone else grows, DK stays stagnant. This means that most people place DK very low on the tier list.

That's why he never went up on anyone's tier list, but he's low on people's tier lists because his peak isn't that great (compared to others).

 

[941]

3.02 Zelda was great to play as, but terrible to play against.

3.5 Zelda is trash to play as, and easy to play against.

Either way you go with her design, someone's jimmies will be rustled.

Even 3.5 Zelda has a lot of incentive to play campy or defensive. It would be nice if she had a float or a good wavedash to give Her some mobility, in exchange for her defensive options being toned down. I could also see that sort of change upsetting a lot of Zelda players though, because it might change what they liked about the character.

 

[mimgrim]

The thing I would take away from Fox, other then Shine but Shine is more on the basis that it has disgusting design to it and shouldn't exist and would be taken away from the other Faclo and Wolf to (god I have such a hate for this single move), is probably lasers so he can't force approaches on top of his god-like approach game and then tone down his defensive stuff.

But really, just get rid of Melee Shine (on all 3 Spacies and not just Fax) and things would become infinitely better in terms of design (or, at the very least, make it like the PK Kids' Magnets to where it comes out later then frame 1). Not that it will ever actually happen.

Shine is still incredibly stupid.

Otherwise I don't have much else to really say on Fox, or the other Spacies other then them being attached to a stupid move and Fox having a few other iffy things that bug me but aren't realy as big of a deal as Shine.

I should really stop ranting about this disgusting move

Anywho....

Someone talk about Mewtwo or something and get my mind off of Shine now pl0x.

 

[FreeGamer]

Even 3.5 Zelda has a lot of incentive to play campy or defensive. It would be nice if she had a float or a good wavedash to give Her some mobility, in exchange for her defensive options being toned down. I could also see that sort of change upsetting a lot of Zelda players though, because it might change what they liked about the character.

I'd want to remove the stupid return arc gimmicks from Din's Fire and replace it with a simple mine that still explodes even after it's touched once. A significant ground speed boost would make the most sense, for the sake of her neutral and because giving her better air speed would be kinda silly considering her aerials.

 

[jtm94]

I love DK, but I kinda wish he actually had to work for his kills out of grabs a bit more. It's kind of silly that he can kill like 3/4 of the cast off of a grab at 50% with no escape options.

Sounds like Wario.
And GnW.
I see a trend Strong Bad.

Zelda can't play campy if her opponent plays campy. And anyone with a projectile or better run speed can out neutral her. I think she's incredibly fun to play against. I just pick fast characters and time them out. Just think of how riveting Sonic vs Zelda is. Dins fire actually does nothing, it just means free grabs for the opponent.

 

[MagnesD3]

That's why he never went up on anyone's tier list, but he's low on people's tier lists because his peak isn't that great (compared to others).

So DK buffs?

 

[Rizner]

So DK buffs?

What? No. I feel like you haven't been listening. Fox buffs.

 

[JOE!]

Let's talk about dash cancelled stuff. Zard has the craziest dash cancelled jab IMO.

 

[Ripple]

If people actually believe that sb actually peaked dks game or that he has a completed character, then are are a fool.

I do stuff right now that sb or poob never did/ do and I know of stuff i could push further but I want to focus on ddd

 

[Strong Badam]

Wall of text inc:

When I say that I peaked DK's game, I mean that there aren't new "things" to incorporate into his gameplay, unlike other characters who are still being explored. People are finding new followups, different and better ways to recover, are being further rewarded for high-level optimizations such as SDI/shield dropping, etc.. Any improvements you can make that would result in the ability to place higher with DK, or beat players/characters that were previously difficult to beat, come exclusively from improving as a player and outplaying your opponents by larger margins, not pushing the character's metagame (which would be shrinking what is needed to "outplay" your opponents) by any relevant margin. Better decisions, reads, quicker adaptation. I already work on those naturally by playing top level players every week, sometimes multiple times a week when they come over for a practice session.

The reason I basically only use DK exclusively for Fire Emblem characters (basically the only relevant subset of chars that DK does better than Wario in) is that it's unreasonably frustrating as a top level player to show up to play, your opponent has new things to bring to the table, and you literally can't. The margin by which you have to outplay them grows, and you haven't magically improved as much as a player to counterbalance that, so the cycle continues and your chances of winning continue to go down. Any time I pick DK against someone who is good here that isn't Sethlon or Lunchables' Roy it takes like a stock or two before I'm reminded why I don't do it. And I am NOT better with Wario than I am with DK. Wario's nuanced gameplay means there are nearly infinitely many things I can improve with him, and I despite the fact that most people feel I'm the best Wario player, I don't yet feel qualified to write a guide on him like I did DK. Wario is just a better character.

Ripple, let me know when you're willing to put your money where your mouth is by traveling to several majors and entering with all DK for over a year like I did. Until you give it some bite, I have no real reason to believe your bark

So DK buffs?

I know you're joking, but I don't think the "issue" here necessarily needs or should be resolved with buffs. You could make the char better, but unless you change his skillset/options significantly his metagame progression won't change.

Sounds like Wario.
And GnW.
I see a trend Strong Bad.

Lol those characters had those attributes before I got to them. It's what I'm drawn to.

 

[trash?]

I know you're joking, but I don't think the "issue" here necessarily needs or should be resolved with buffs. You could make the char better, but unless you change his skillset/options significantly his metagame progression won't change.

soooo

DK redesign?

 

[Strong Badam]

Sooo Tier List Discussion and stop bothering PMDT about potential future changes they obviously can't talk about?

 

[PlateProp]

Sooo just repeat every argument about Fox for the billionth time and stop bothering PMDT about potential future changes they obviously can't talk about?

Fix'd

Edit: Tbh everyone should just pack up. After 4 years of his tyranny, it is obvious that the PMDT is not the savior whom will deliver us from the evil space animal, and is instead content to let him continue to frame 1 spike us into the abyss

 

[nimigoha]

Who thinks that a system of 4 tiers is good enough to represent the viability of the characters? S, A, B, and B-

 

[JOE!]

Clearly, DK is gonna be able to spawn and throw barrels

 

[Rizner]

Who thinks that a system of 4 tiers is good enough to represent the viability of the characters? S, A, B, and B-

Sooo Tier List Discussion and stop bothering PMDT about potential future changes they obviously can't talk about?

Now that you mentioned 3.6, can we have a new tier list thread when it launches where we promote not randomly assigning letters to tiers? Just make them numbered or something. Letters are so vague and everyone has different meanings for each one.

 

[Ripple]

Wall of text inc:

When I say that I peaked DK's game, I mean that there aren't new "things" to incorporate into his gameplay, unlike other characters who are still being explored.

if you actually believe this, then you really didn't look hard. There is something still out there that no DK's do right now and it would be extremely helpful in a number of MUs. admittedly, I can rarely do this either but claiming that there isn't anything new isn't true.

Ripple, let me know when you're willing to put your money where your mouth is by traveling to several majors and entering with all DK for over a year like I did. Until you give it some bite, I have no real reason to believe your bark

I already did this with D3.

When I say people can incorporate something new with him, you should believe it even if I don't want to waste my tournament time on that character

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

ehh.. regarding DK's game being peaked.. some of the DK stuff De La Seoul does in this set seems new compared to what I've seen from StrongBad's DK, but I could be wrong..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zri_TMzLky8

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Before the DK talk gets out back on the shelf to be revisited never (cuz fax is too important to put aside). Would it be too much to ask to have DK's down b hitbox actually represented by the quakes. The quakes make it look reasonable, but when you get hit with far hitbox, you realize just how insane it's teach is.

As for pit, the only times I can combo with him are when I play as dark pit. Zero played using dark pit. Coincidence? I think not. Also, I used to stuck s put. When I realized to stop using fair so much, suddenly it all started working a lot better.

 

[941]

I think Sonic, Yoshi, Samus, ICs, and Olimar deserve to be in the "No Representation" Tier. The tier for characters that are hard to classify because there isn't enough data to do so.

 

[POOB]

I discover new stuff with DK like every week idk what you're talking about SB lol. Also @ Ripple what are these things you speak of that other DK's don't do? You say you know things but you haven't actually gave examples. I'm curious what these things are. I remember you talking about b-reverse grounded up-b being really good and people don't use it enough, which is kinda true. It could prob be used more. What else you got?

 

[nimigoha]

I refuse to believe that in a game where Donkey Kong has 41 matchups to learn and perfect, Strong Bad (or anyone) has done them all and can't optimize anymore.

 

[POOB]

Real talk I think the character is underdeveloped even in melee. But hey I'm gonna keep quiet about that theory until I prove it with my gameplay. I'm in a melee phase right now lol

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

Just wanted to say this:

I think one of the important factors of how well a game does with it's design and balance is whether or not the developers, and it's community (assuming they play a role in it's development) are willing to admit they may be wrong about an opinion, no matter how well educated they think it is. Humility goes a long way for a game's development, and pride can stagnate it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Who thinks that a system of 4 tiers is good enough to represent the viability of the characters? S, A, B, and B-

I think you should get over your arbitrary hangups on tier list organization. See my last reply on the subject.

When I say people can incorporate something new with him, you should believe it even if I don't want to waste my tournament time on that character

Ehhhhh

If you actually demonstrate your point, sure. Doesn't necessarily mean you need to pull him out in bracket, but you're being awfully vague for nothing if you don't plan on actually doing any work with DK. Regardless of how he phrased it, SB has a point: put up or shut up.