Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

Wasn't LTC2 m2k's? What Hbox won in PM was Paragon I think.

 

[steelguttey]

jiggs is a secondary character. maining jiggs will make you lose against brawl characters but she still beats melee

 

[steelguttey]

boy smashboards on mobile is dandy

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Hbox won Forte 2

 

[AceGamer]

Even if people think Peach and Jiggs are good(a decent amount of people think Peach is good in PM at least), doesn't mean they're gonna be used that much more. They're not exactly the coolest characters in the roster

 

[steelguttey]

who the **** cares if theyre cool

besides, i think theyre cool characters in terms of gameplay

 

[AceGamer]

who the **** cares if theyre cool

besides, i think theyre cool characters in terms of gameplay

yeah they're cool in that sense I guess, oh and I swear not that many people think those 2 are bad? More people think Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness and Pit are bad if anything because of 3.5 nerfs I feel. Although Lucas gets less flack than the other 3

 

[InfinityCollision]

Pit is legitimately underpowered. Lucas and Mewtwo are still good, and Ness is okey.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wasn't LTC2 m2k's? What Hbox won in PM was Paragon I think.

I think M2k won Paragon Orlando, but could be wrong. Hbox won Forte 2 beating Sethlon and Oracle, among others.

 

[eideeiit]

Yeah. I began thinking and remembered M2k beating Plup in some GF and it couldn't have been anything but Paragon.

 

[Pwii]

yeah they're cool in that sense I guess, oh and I swear not that many people think those 2 are bad? More people think Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness and Pit are bad if anything because of 3.5 nerfs I feel. Although Lucas gets less flack than the other 3

Lucas is still high tier. The only real difference is he has flaws now, and he's harder to use. Neon and pink fresh have picked him up again as well.

His main weaknesses are how he gets edgeguarded and techchased. Also if you Don't get a kill at the right percents, it's hard to kill opponents safely, a little like marth.

He still has good shield pressure, great combos, pretty good matchup spread, especially against spacies. Solid character, but not top tier

 

[ChiePet]

@ ChiePet Think people are ready to believe us that Peach is good yet?

Even if they won't, I'll always continue to preach that Gospel~.

Speaking of; Blew my mind that Armada was playing Peach in PM at Sandstorm. If he drops her in melee for fox I will easily regain respect for him as a Peach god for playing her in PM.

and **** people who like cool over cute, cute always wins. especially when they're that ridiculously stronk.

 

[JOE!]

Did Oracle go zard vs hbox? He destroys jiggs lol

 

[Rachman]

@Idostuff @Boiko Or anyone else who is interested, C-rez and I took hand cams of GFs (StereoKiDD vs Hero of Time) and I posted them to my channel (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBHynxN-R-7eLeGC7K7iPaSA7Q-tfqoy or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTvF1AM4Rkw for the two different hand cams). I believe we had a hand cam for Mr Lz vs Hero of Time as well but it's on Mr Lz's phone and I haven't reached out to him yet. I apologize for no proper stream for PM, Sm4sh took 11 hours when it was supposed to take 5-6 and it ruined our stream schedule. I also apologize for the screaming dude in the videos, that is me and I was heavily sleep deprived. Hope this is decent enough quality and next time we will have a proper set up to record many more of our PM matches.

 

[didds]

funny/goofy > cute and cool

 

[ChiePet]

funny/goofy > cute and cool

Blasphemy.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pit is legitimately underpowered.

 

[AceGamer]

Badass/sick >>funny/goofy>>>>>>cute/cool lol

 

[The Baron]

Badass/sick >>funny/goofy>>>>>>cute/cool lol

Badass Wolves >= Pretty Princes >>>>>>>>>>>> peasants who aren't either

 

[Player -0]

The Social thread is over there ---->

 

[AceGamer]

Sorry we got off track lol. What did guys think of Sandstorm, did change your opinions on some characters placings??

 

[The Baron]

Sorry we got off track lol. What did guys think of Sandstorm, did change your opinions on some characters placings??

Nope. Jiggly might be better than we give her credit for but honestly it just felt like arizona feat. Hungrybox and Westballz though the Hungrybox part is pretty significant I guess

 

[Ariyo]

Here's my tier list.
Characters on the same row are considered more or less equal.

S(hine) Tier




No Secondaries Tier



Not Too Shabby Tier




Why Is This Character Good Tier


Wishing They Were Fox Tier



Wishing They Were Sheik Tier



They're Alright I Guess Tier



Lmao




Feel free to refute.

 

[MLGF]

Shine as a hard knockdown?
That's brilliant. I hate how I never thought of that myself.

 

[The Baron]

Shine as a hard knockdown?
That's brilliant. I hate how I never thought of that myself.

Your Dikkson pic makes it hard for me to know if this is sarcasm or not (D i ckson is censored apparently)

 

[MLGF]

What? I'm being completely serious, open your ears boy.

No, but seriously, I honestly love that idea.

 

[foxygrandpa]

The main issue I have with fox isn't that he's overwhelming, but that he still plays identical to melee fox, meaning you could play him the same in this game as melee. Sheik peach and marth have retained similar edgeguard and punish games, but all play (slightly) fundamentally different.
Taking away shine combos would make fox kinda boring and too different. Because his damage output would be lower, it would also encourage a greater amount of DD abuse and lasering since racking up damage, which would still be difficult to combat with a lot of slower characters and pm's big stages.
I don't mind the shine so much as I mind his effectiveness in neutral. They should tone down his dash, or maybe shrink nair's hitbox a little so that his approach is easier to stuff.
I think taking away uthrow upair might be a good fix. It would force players to have to use upsmash instead for a vertical kill, which wouldn't be as detrimental on floaties due to pal nerfs.
The stage list also just kinda favors him. It would be nice to see another legal GHZ or FD style stage where chain grabs are more free on him, but that would be difficult due to a lack of standardized ruleset in pm.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Fox isn't an issue at all. He isn't dominating the metagame at all. Oh wait, this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_X_IR7T3LQ

Speaking of fox, if I were in charge of changing fox (the mod would spiral into oblivion...), here's what I would could consider.
Shine changes. I am fine with jump cancel, damage, and angle, I would make it have KBG. It wouldn't even need a lot, just some so that it isn't a guaranteed up smash etc at kill percents. This would be a mixed bag because it would make later percent shine spikes better, while weakening early ones as others have said. The philosophy behind this is mostly the easy kills it provides. I personally believe that small, quick, and light characters should struggle more for kills then a big, fat, heavy. It just seems so backwards and it is part of why I think big characters are usually way worse than they should be. Back to fox though.
Up smash changes. Maybe make it a bit slower or and a touch of extra endlag.
Nair/Dair changes. Shrink their hitboxes so they are easier to beat out or trade with.
Up air changes. Nerf the damage and compensate the knockback. Its absurd how much damage this move does.

That's it. I would love to change lasers, but there is no good ideas that I have heard. I am fine with his dash as well. If you want to nerf him in neutral without drastic changes to laser, I think decreasing hitbox sizes is the way to go.

To be on topic. Somebody a page or 2 back asked who would see the biggest jump when 3.6 dropped. Since we don't know hardly any changes, this will obviously be speculation, but I think Meta Knight has a chance to make some leaps (obviously depending on where you put him on your current list). I think he is being underrated currently, but give him slightly better low percent throw game and I could see someone take him far.

 

[Deleted member]

real talk why does everyone put ICs in bottom

its a movement bug, and a lot of people dont even know what it is or that its even there

ICs are still scary as ****

 

[DMG]

Not that many strong players with IC's imo. If you want that character to be truly represented, you'd have to ask Melee IC gods to come and also figure out the Brawl character MU's + stage variety differences imo. Hylian's only one dude, he can't be in every region getting vids recorded vs the top players of all the characters, on all the stages.

Just look at Ripple with D3: he does phenomenal with the character, has exposure to a lot of the country, and 95% of the population probably has no clue what the real D3 MU's are.

 

[nimigoha]

I love ICs so much. They're broken with an infinite in 3.5 which sorta (not really) balances out their pivot glitch, but Hylian has told me that both will be removed in 3.6. Both needed to go but I'll miss 0-999ing Bowser.

Even without the infinite you can do some stupid stuff.

Personal favourite is P-dthrow N-footstool, which is techable and they can SDI the jab reset but if they do neither then it's hilarious.

Plus there's the secret god tier kill move they have that almost no one knows about.

And anyone putting Bowser in the bottom tier along with broken ICs and incomplete Olimar is just playing their friends with a joke Bowser and doesn't know how to avoid grabs and hasn't seen a Bowser main ever.

 

[UltiMario]

A big reason why none of the ICs players are playing is why should they when ICs is better in Melee? Players don't have any reason to come over to PM when their character is net nerfed. This isn't like Fox where he's far and beyond the best character in the game regardless of the nerfs, this is having everything your character was about shredded to pieces for the sake of "objectively good game design".

ICs and Jiggs are really the only 2 Melee chars where PM significantly hurts you for playing them. Jiggs is just a function of PM having better recoveries and Jiggs not really being tweaked yet to deal with that (hopefully something 3.6 fixes), but trying to play ICs in PM is brutal compared to Melee because of how vastly different the characters are, and how ineffective their grab game is compared to Melee because of both the increased number of high-mobility characters and their heavily watered-down options once you get a grab. Even if ICs isn't as bad as everyone says they are, they're STILL worse than Melee ICs in a game with a median power level way above Melee, and that's a problem.

They're not unfixable, but there's absolutely a design philosophy behind Project M, and ICs is completely incompatible with it. Either ICs gets to break the rules and get a "flawed" design in order to mesh better with how the character plays in previous titles, or there has to be some very strong buffs to truly compensate for everything they lost in Melee.

 

[trash?]

they do have great buffs, though (closer together for more consistent hits needed for a separation, a thousand times better AI so nana will actually be tolerable once separate, etc)

they just also still have a movement glitch that can basically destroy nana at random, so any consistency issues solved from melee to PM was dismantled. once they're consistent enough where their constantly desyncs and movement options work 100% of the time, they're objectively buffed

 

[941]

A big reason why none of the ICs players are playing is why should they when ICs is better in Melee? Players don't have any reason to come over to PM when their character is net nerfed. This isn't like Fox where he's far and beyond the best character in the game regardless of the nerfs, this is having everything your character was about shredded to pieces for the sake of "objectively good game design".

ICs and Jiggs are really the only 2 Melee chars where PM significantly hurts you for playing them. Jiggs is just a function of PM having better recoveries and Jiggs not really being tweaked yet to deal with that (hopefully something 3.6 fixes), but trying to play ICs in PM is brutal compared to Melee because of how vastly different the characters are, and how ineffective their grab game is compared to Melee because of both the increased number of high-mobility characters and their heavily watered-down options once you get a grab. Even if ICs isn't as bad as everyone says they are, they're STILL worse than Melee ICs in a game with a median power level way above Melee, and that's a problem.

They're not unfixable, but there's absolutely a design philosophy behind Project M, and ICs is completely incompatible with it. Either ICs gets to break the rules and get a "flawed" design in order to mesh better with how the character plays in previous titles, or there has to be some very strong buffs to truly compensate for everything they lost in Melee.

Just to add to this: ICs play differently in Melee than they do in PM, and because of this, most Melee ICs players aren't going to pick them up in PM. The Nana AI, desyncing, and kill options, are all very different in both games and many players don't think it's worth it to make the transition. On top of that, the lack of people playing the character has caused ICs to have a fairly stagnant meta-game, which means players have to go through a lot of trial and error to learn the character.

I wish I could like this post more, because you really seem to understand the issues with the character, and I was typing a similar, but worse, post when I saw this.

 

[Comeback Kid]

If the character ends up in a good place but few people play them due to differences, does it really matter? It's up to the player base to take them up.

Melee players can't get everything that they want and can pick up a different character.

 

[Hylian]

real talk why does everyone put ICs in bottom

its a movement bug, and a lot of people dont even know what it is or that its even there

ICs are still scary as ****

IC's are scary as **** yes, but the movement glitch REALLY sucks lol. They can't turn around. Some of their most important tools in like every match-up are wavedash -> turn around jab which leads into dsmash or grab and that option is just completely gone because of the glitch. They also are really scary to play as on the edge, because turning around to get away from it can just fling nana to her death so you need to commit to an action like jumping/rolling/wd etc to get away from the ledge, which can really suck when you are being pressured. If you are really good at playing around the glitch though they can be super good yeah, they have a ton of great options that weren't really available to them in melee that people don't really understand yet. I've only gone 100% ics at two tournaments (my last two) and got 2nd/5th(regional size). I do feel like I lost my matches because of the glitch but I don't john about it haha I am just waiting for 3.5 to start showcasing their stuff.

Not that many strong players with IC's imo. If you want that character to be truly represented, you'd have to ask Melee IC gods to come and also figure out the Brawl character MU's + stage variety differences imo. Hylian's only one dude, he can't be in every region getting vids recorded vs the top players of all the characters, on all the stages.

Just look at Ripple with D3: he does phenomenal with the character, has exposure to a lot of the country, and 95% of the population probably has no clue what the real D3 MU's are.

This is a really good point. Not only this though, the melee IC's god would also need to have played brawl because otherwise they aren't going to have any idea how to optimally play with nana and a lot of desync that are now available to them, as well as the other stuff you mentioned. I have played IC's without the glitch against a lot of good players (Sethlon/StrongBad/Metroid/Ripple) etc though and I feel like they don't underrate IC's as much as others.

A big reason why none of the ICs players are playing is why should they when ICs is better in Melee? Players don't have any reason to come over to PM when their character is net nerfed. This isn't like Fox where he's far and beyond the best character in the game regardless of the nerfs, this is having everything your character was about shredded to pieces for the sake of "objectively good game design".

ICs and Jiggs are really the only 2 Melee chars where PM significantly hurts you for playing them. Jiggs is just a function of PM having better recoveries and Jiggs not really being tweaked yet to deal with that (hopefully something 3.6 fixes), but trying to play ICs in PM is brutal compared to Melee because of how vastly different the characters are, and how ineffective their grab game is compared to Melee because of both the increased number of high-mobility characters and their heavily watered-down options once you get a grab. Even if ICs isn't as bad as everyone says they are, they're STILL worse than Melee ICs in a game with a median power level way above Melee, and that's a problem.

They're not unfixable, but there's absolutely a design philosophy behind Project M, and ICs is completely incompatible with it. Either ICs gets to break the rules and get a "flawed" design in order to mesh better with how the character plays in previous titles, or there has to be some very strong buffs to truly compensate for everything they lost in Melee.

This is the problem, your exact mindset about the character. This just tells me you haven't put time into PM IC's. They are very different from melee, not necessarily worse or better. They certainly have better neutral options, edgeguarding, recovery and punishes in this game than in melee aside from wobbling, and the have more options against floaty characters as well in their up-b/squall being used offensively. IC's will always break the rules because there are two of them, which leads to very fundamental differences from the rest of the cast. This doesn't mean they need broken aspects like infinites to be able to compete. If you've kept track of IC's development at all you've notice I've hardly given them any buffs at all(since I started suggesting changes for them), the main one I gave them being up-b as a kill move at high %'s. Despite everyone putting IC's at bottom tier there have been very little changes to the character, I've mainly been focused on working with the coders to get their ledge hand-offs just like melee and to work properly and to remove various infinites/bugs. I really don't think they need buffs at all, they just need to be flushed out as a character and have more than one or two good players pick them up to develop things. The amount I know about PM IC's is unrivaled I'm pretty sure, but there are certainly better players than myself that could put the knowledge to better use. For example, IC's actually have a lot of really good tools against Peach in PM that they didn't at all in melee. They have a lot of good tools against spacies, etc. They still have really hard match-ups with a lot of of characters (Falcon/Peach/TL) but overall I think those match-ups except maybe TL are winnable. Maybe I'm wrong and they just suck without broken aspects but I'd at least like to make a splash or attempt to before deciding that. I already know how I do against national level players with IC's, I don't think I'm just speculating completely. I just need to prove it to other people. The character is good.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What if ICs secretly counter ROB
I mean, Nana can take gyro while popo ****s ROB
makes perfect sense right
that's what I thought
go away lunchables

 

[Hylian]

What if ICs secretly counter ROB
I mean, Nana can take gyro while popo ****s ROB
makes perfect sense right
that's what I thought
go away lunchables

I played JCz at magfest and won a majority iirc. Ic's vs rob.

 

[DrinkingFood]

JCz was bad and always was
EDIT: That may have come off more rudely than intended. It's only supposed to be slightly rude. Please don't let him handle ROB anymore. But he was super overrated when he was playing, basically a placeholder til other players got to a decent level/good players showed up

regardless, if that's the only encounter of ROB v ICies you've had, the matchup is probably too underdeveloped/poorly understood to be analyzed
I actually would have said gut instinct ROB wins; the awkwardness of gyro and laser, as projectiles that can hit multiple characters, against a dual character who relies on not getting his AI partner ****ed, as well as one who moves around mostly with WDs such that you can't always shield or WD again right away to deal with my projectiles, is probably actually super relevant here. Most matchups don't even care about his projectiles in neutral that much, maybe Luigi since he WDs so much too, and Ike since his long range movement has start-up and moderate commitment

 

[Hylian]

The only thing I have to go off of is my brawl match-up knowledge lol.

Edit: Which rob won >_>. But it feels easier in PM.

Edit: Also gyros give me a ton of cool item desynchs .