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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
go on...
robosteven
Smash Lord
are we seriously talking about fox again
Akhenderson
Smash Apprentice
People give lots of fox about that character you know.
On a more serious notes, I don't know what you'd do to make shine less broken. I do like the idea of making shine deal like, super minimal damage to weaken its attributes as a pressure tool due to block stun scaling with damage.
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robosteven
Smash Lord
Giving other characters moves that start on frame 1 would help.
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not really. that just pushes the impetus onto even more offense and more powerful (shield)pressure games. that doesn't necessarily increase counterplay or create more interaction between the moves, it just means everyone's able to do stupid stuff, but not necessarily play against/play around/counter said stupid stuff.
@
DMG
i'm still waiting, man!
@
DMG
i'm still waiting, man!
robosteven
Smash Lord
Sounds like Marvel if you ask me.
...which in retrospect sounds like something we shouldn't strive for so never mind forget what I said
If Shine KB is flat increased, but no growth otherwise:
Shine still may not knockdown heavier characters (if you're trying to make it impossible for him to waveshine people, or get stronger follow ups after shine onstage), and increasing knockback so much that it floors even the heaviest character would likely make floatier chars really fly away. Offstage shine spikes would likely be noticeably buffed under those terms.
If Shine KB has growth depending on character %:
This can cause varying %'s for characters on whether they get knocked down or not. Under the current move, shine is at least consistent on what it does vs which character: under this, Marth may suddenly get floored past 35% OR maybe 36% if Shine is stale? I don't know if Shine can get stale, or if it would get stale if it had KB growth? If so, that could leave 1-2% differences on the threshold where a character passes over from "standing up" during shine KB, into "falling over" from shine KB just due to staleness. CC may also affect that in weird ways...
With growth based on character %, this also buffs shine spikes once characters take some % (which is not hard to accomplish, this is Fox). Floatier characters, or ones with decent recovery, might find themselves struggling more vs Shine offstage if it sends people further
If Shine needs something, it may be an angle change on the KB, not trying to manipulate the KB values.
Shine still may not knockdown heavier characters (if you're trying to make it impossible for him to waveshine people, or get stronger follow ups after shine onstage), and increasing knockback so much that it floors even the heaviest character would likely make floatier chars really fly away. Offstage shine spikes would likely be noticeably buffed under those terms.
If Shine KB has growth depending on character %:
This can cause varying %'s for characters on whether they get knocked down or not. Under the current move, shine is at least consistent on what it does vs which character: under this, Marth may suddenly get floored past 35% OR maybe 36% if Shine is stale? I don't know if Shine can get stale, or if it would get stale if it had KB growth? If so, that could leave 1-2% differences on the threshold where a character passes over from "standing up" during shine KB, into "falling over" from shine KB just due to staleness. CC may also affect that in weird ways...
With growth based on character %, this also buffs shine spikes once characters take some % (which is not hard to accomplish, this is Fox). Floatier characters, or ones with decent recovery, might find themselves struggling more vs Shine offstage if it sends people further
If Shine needs something, it may be an angle change on the KB, not trying to manipulate the KB values.
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ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
Honestly I'd much rather have Pit get back everything he lost in 3.5 with the exception of losing all but 1 jump out of Air Glide and the reduced reach of Up B.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Fox's edgeguard game sans ledgedrop/jump backair and super deep, soft, early nairplanes would be pretty gutted without shinespike. All of his aerials except upair are out for a long time.
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Life
Smash Hero
If you're going to nerf Fox and Falco, just nerf their kill moves and call it a day. Even after the nerfs, Fox usmash kills like 20-30% too early (although that might partially be a function of me playing few fastfallers). Doesn't really make sense that the characters who have the strongest neutral games have to win neutral less often than their peers.
ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
I think Falco was nerfed well. Intang on shine had to go. Laser % nerf doesn't affect his gameplay. And having to time your Dair to not trade and hit with your toes is noticeably harder but doesn't change his game plan.
I think Fox is okay. His Usmash could be softened a bit more, and his Uair could be as well.
I'm happy with changing things to make them better. Marth plays almost identically outside of Brawl tech, but it's not like you'll try something in PM and it doesn't work like it does in Melee. You can do extra things (like fun stuff with Bair IASA).
I don't want Fox or Falco changed to a degree where a combo or mechanic that would work in Melee doesn't work in PM, outside of shine trading or a certain kill move. Altering any more of shine's properties seems too drastic.
To be honest I've always liked Falco's Brawl Fsmash. If they could make the active frames and KB the same I wouldn't be against bringing that move back. The difference in hitbox placement might annoy some people though.
I think Fox is okay. His Usmash could be softened a bit more, and his Uair could be as well.
I'm happy with changing things to make them better. Marth plays almost identically outside of Brawl tech, but it's not like you'll try something in PM and it doesn't work like it does in Melee. You can do extra things (like fun stuff with Bair IASA).
I don't want Fox or Falco changed to a degree where a combo or mechanic that would work in Melee doesn't work in PM, outside of shine trading or a certain kill move. Altering any more of shine's properties seems too drastic.
To be honest I've always liked Falco's Brawl Fsmash. If they could make the active frames and KB the same I wouldn't be against bringing that move back. The difference in hitbox placement might annoy some people though.
JOE!
Smash Hero
I think Fox's Uair bothers me more than the Usmash since it seems way more out of place (and also hits at a higher elevation thus in theory killing earlier than even Usmash)
Yambotico
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
- Messages
- 23
I was gonna say to just sdi out but then i saw you play charizard.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
IMO if we adjust fox's shine at all, it should be set up with KBG so that it has its current KB as 50%. That way it'll cause knockdown on characters from ~40-60%, and waveshine would never link directly into grab or upsmash at kill percents. But it'd also gimp better past 50%, and be able to waveshine any character up to like at least 40% depending on their weight, while gimping worse before 50%. It's not strictly a nerf, but he loses some ridiculously low percent gimps and guaranteed high percent kill set-ups in exchange for better gimps past 50% and more guaranteed damage on light characters at low percent.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
You can still SDI it, but at the same time when it does connect it still does 18% or 17% and has similar launch power to his Usmash.
Actually...
Usmash: hits frame 5 (wtf, but ok) // Damage 17 // Direction 80 // BKB 26 // KBG 108
Uair (strong hit): hits frame 12 // Damage 13 // Direction 85 // BKB 40 // KBG 116
The weak hit of Uair hits frame 9 and deals 4 damage, meaning it does 17% (same as Usmash) all together, but for power purposes we really only need to look at the strong hit. Ness is the most average-weighted character, and is currently locked onto my KB calculator anyway so I'm gonna test the moves at 100% on him:
Usmash Knockback: 218.696
Uair Knockback: 202.771
Uair Knockback at 104% (1st hit connected): 207.793
That is a difference of 15.925~10.903 units. For perspective on the amount of height that is:
The distance from the floor to the lower plats is 28 units, nearly double or even triple the difference from Usmash and Uair. Fall speed does drastically alter the actual distance traveled, but as does the angle given how DI works. Moves can be DI'd 18* back and forth, meaning Usmash can send you at a 62 / 80 / 98* angle, while Uair can send at a 67 / 85 / 103* angle. The difference is 5*, but hey that can matter when the arcs are concerned!
Given how Usmasn and Uair hit anyway, to match Usmash Fox essentially just has to space Uair from a short hop so that his feet hit about 10 units above the floor, or essentially above the dot resting above "28" on either marker on the platforms. Given he can easily attain further height with his jumps (or Uthrow->Uair), if he just lands the strong hit it will kill at sooner % than Usmash will in practice due to simply hitting closer to the vertical blastzone at a more vertical angle.
What makes Usmash really dumb is the speed lol.
Actually...
Usmash: hits frame 5 (wtf, but ok) // Damage 17 // Direction 80 // BKB 26 // KBG 108
Uair (strong hit): hits frame 12 // Damage 13 // Direction 85 // BKB 40 // KBG 116
The weak hit of Uair hits frame 9 and deals 4 damage, meaning it does 17% (same as Usmash) all together, but for power purposes we really only need to look at the strong hit. Ness is the most average-weighted character, and is currently locked onto my KB calculator anyway so I'm gonna test the moves at 100% on him:
Usmash Knockback: 218.696
Uair Knockback: 202.771
Uair Knockback at 104% (1st hit connected): 207.793
That is a difference of 15.925~10.903 units. For perspective on the amount of height that is:
The distance from the floor to the lower plats is 28 units, nearly double or even triple the difference from Usmash and Uair. Fall speed does drastically alter the actual distance traveled, but as does the angle given how DI works. Moves can be DI'd 18* back and forth, meaning Usmash can send you at a 62 / 80 / 98* angle, while Uair can send at a 67 / 85 / 103* angle. The difference is 5*, but hey that can matter when the arcs are concerned!
Given how Usmasn and Uair hit anyway, to match Usmash Fox essentially just has to space Uair from a short hop so that his feet hit about 10 units above the floor, or essentially above the dot resting above "28" on either marker on the platforms. Given he can easily attain further height with his jumps (or Uthrow->Uair), if he just lands the strong hit it will kill at sooner % than Usmash will in practice due to simply hitting closer to the vertical blastzone at a more vertical angle.
What makes Usmash really dumb is the speed lol.
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
OH BOY FOX DISCUSSION?! TOTALLY GONNA FOLLOW THIS THREAD MORE
JOE!
Smash Hero
And for some salt:
Charizard's Sweetspot Up B (Aerial): hits frame 8 // Damage 12 // Direction 90 // BKB 70 // KBG 95
Vs Ness at 100%: 156.615 Knockback
At least it hits straight vertically, but then goes into lag that lasts till frame 62 then transitions to special fall.
Edit: To be fair, Zard can attain even more height than Fox can but still
Charizard's Sweetspot Up B (Aerial): hits frame 8 // Damage 12 // Direction 90 // BKB 70 // KBG 95
Vs Ness at 100%: 156.615 Knockback
At least it hits straight vertically, but then goes into lag that lasts till frame 62 then transitions to special fall.
Edit: To be fair, Zard can attain even more height than Fox can but still
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MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Fox's usmash does not hit frame 5. It hits on frame 7.
JOE!
Smash Hero
My B, still super fast for what it is tho
MonkUnit
Project M Back Roomer
Also, Fox's U-Air weak hit hits on frames 8-9 and strong hit on frames 11-14.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Welp, I'm in the right wiggle-room area for those lol. #workingonotherstuffatthesametimejohns
Besides, the point of what I was finding out was the power
Besides, the point of what I was finding out was the power
FOUREYES
Smash Journeyman
What if Fox's shine was CCable like Wolf's?
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
You would need to decrease the knockback. Its not just a switch you can turn on or off.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
It's actually mostly dependant on angle. You can true CC any move (2/3rds knockback reduction) but what he probably means is actually canceling hitstun like CCing most moves does. That would require a knockback angle above horizontal. Issue is, if you do that and don't raise it high enough, it'll auto-CC basically every time he shines you just because the angle will pick you up off the ground ever so slightly then drop you again, much like how CCing works. So you need to raise the angle drastically to allow that. But raising the angle drastically means fox starts working completely differently. If you did that he could probably waveshine aerial opponents above his head like an easier version of what you sometimes see in TASes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYgp2OxPVyA&feature=player_detailpage&t=46. Note that the fox there could have DI'd down to get out of that I believe, but if you raise the angle that wouldn't help at all.
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ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
I'll be honest, It doesn't phase me; The more I learn about Fax the better.
Until he gets nerfed and no one cares about him anymore [Pit] every tid bit is essential.
D
Deleted member
Guest
shine is a pretty easy fix tbh. we already removed invincibility, now we can make it so it always forces knockdown, remove the base knockback and give it reasonable growth. no infinites, no kills under 80, reliably edge guards at high%, no combos that work at any %, retains shield pressure and techy JC options. it just works
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Foo
Smash Lord
I love how shine is a frame 1 shield pressure tool that can be JC'd (with shine grab as an option) that is also electric, can combo into itself or really early kill moves that can also be used to gimp at crazy early %s, and reflects all projectiles, yet nerfing any of those things would "gut him." You know what's silly? You could straight up remove shine entirely and fox would still be extremely good. He would just use his insanely good jab for shield pressure mixups.
No it wouldn't. He would still have offstage shine, it just wouldn't be a spike.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
I literally have the bracket link copied and was here to post it. Hahahaha.@Boiko So StereoKiDD just placed first at our PM tournament, outplacing Colbol, Hero of time, Mr Lz, Cruz Control, Eikelmann and many more. Ness sux tho amirite
PlateProp
Smash Master
Warning Received