Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

kirbytalk: kirby's punish game hasn't even been close to fully complete yet

most of kirby's punishes can be converted into moving the opponent off-stage (fair is great, y'all) and I don't fully believe there's any character that doesn't get wrecked offstage vs. kirby, between dair, reverse up-b always taking the ledge (which is THEN used in tandem with his downward cutter being a legit meteor) and his ten million jumps, the little ball of fluff has a whole bunch of options to work with

also, grounded sidecutter is amazingly safe, so it's not like his neutral is even remotely bad. odds got me motivated to make me want to do more stuff with him, except the van PM scene is still awful and I have no money to go to out-of-province tourneys, boo

e: also inhale is a flat gimmick, cut that **** out

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

also inhale is a flat gimmick, cut that **** out

But-mu-muh chudat kills

 

[jtm94]

I agree on Ganon's UpB oos being meh at best. You can pretty much do whatever to his shield and he eats it.

GnW is no less than mid tier. There's a lot of counter play to be had involving him. Too many people in general get hit by things that you can escape, sdi out of, or plain DI out of. I have realized that I overrated bacon as a projectile slightly, it's still amazing, but hard to tame. Still godly against big characters because you throw it in their direction and know it will hit them.

Kirby is neat. He gets hated on for being "lame," but to me he's a pretty basic character that rewards you for playing well. I don't really know how much is left to expand upon with Kirby, just overall getting more skillful with the character. I've seen Kirby's wall of pain with bairs into the blast zone, that move is amazing. Kirby has the capacity to turn the tables while he's being edge guarded because one mistake = bair > grab ledge and you're down a stock.

Gimmick - an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal or an important feature that is not immediately apparent.

Kirby players are attracted by inhale, but they stay for the back air. Inhale is not something that is problematic, you can avoid the situation entirely. It may catch you off guard once, but it's your fault if you play into it again. Yes it means you have to be cautious when standing extremely close to the ledge, but you can stand just beyond it's distance and still punish Kirby for doing whatever.

 

[FreeGamer]

In my experience, Kirbycide works best when it's least expected (aka not camping for it Chu-style).

Is grounded Cutter Dash really that good? The hitbox is mostly below him, so unless you're doing it from a platform you're kinda giving up its range. Plus don't you still lose your jumps if you get hit out of it? TBH I don't see why you would use it over Dash Attack...

 

[Warzenschwein]

Out of curiosity:

What's with R.O.B? I know he's seen as Top 5 material atmo but is there a need for n3rfs? Anything that NEEDS to be toned down? Want to heard some of your 100% qualified opinions yo.

 

[Foo]

Out of curiosity:

What's with R.O.B? I know he's seen as Top 5 material atmo but is there a need for n3rfs? Anything that NEEDS to be toned down? Want to heard some of your 100% qualified opinions yo.

Dtrhow needs some nerfing and maybe a few other small tweaks to boost.

 

[GmJn]

No one here really wants balance, they just want nerfs to things they don't like. Quite frankly it is disappointing.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Out of curiosity:

What's with R.O.B? I know he's seen as Top 5 material atmo but is there a need for n3rfs? Anything that NEEDS to be toned down? Want to heard some of your 100% qualified opinions yo.

Could probably start with uair and throws

 

[supascoot]

No one here really wants balance, they just want nerfs to things they don't like. Quite frankly it is disappointing.

Because everyone here is a dum balance whiner who wants to nerf that one character that wins all of their locals.

Really, this post has contributed nothing to the conversation and only serves to make yourself look like a **** Smart person. I'm fairly sure we've had these exact same posts before and everyone ignored them then too, so if you want people to talk about "balance" then you're gonna need to try harder

 

[GmJn]

Anyone thinks they should remove all the meteor hitboxes of Aether except the one where Ike descends?

 

[FreeGamer]

Aether is fine. Ike's throws are what should be looked at.

 

[GmJn]

Aether is fine. Ike's throws are what should be looked at.

His down throw is only a DI mixup, and up throw only works on spacies/fast fallers so you must be referring to forward and back throw? I guess they could use a fix, but you can react and DI them unlike other throws in the game.

 

[FreeGamer]

I thought F-Throw to F-Air was guaranteed on a lot of characters/percents? Feel free to prove me wrong if you have any data. >__>

 

[GmJn]

It is guaranteed on a lot of characters, but here are times when people could avoid it but don't. although I dare say it is guaranteed more often than not on most.and if you react to slowly to the back throw fthrow mixup it'll mostlikely always hit. But I make use of these combos quite rarely so if another ike main could provide data it would be a big help.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It is guaranteed on a lot of characters

No.

I thought F-Throw to F-Air was guaranteed on a lot of characters/percents? Feel free to prove me wrong if you have any data. >__>

DI down and away. Every other throw is slow enough to react to so Ike's doesn't have a true mix-up. Mostly he throws for position.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ike throw game = panadora box

 

[GmJn]

No.



DI down and away. Every other throw is slow enough to react to so Ike's doesn't have a true mix-up. Mostly he throws for position.

Thank you for I was sure I was spewing non sense

 

[DMG]

The underlying egregious part about ROB seems to be that opponents fundamentally have their DI and mitigation tools strongly limited by his versatility.


It's not uncommon for strong character to have a throw or setup that almost entirely ignores DI if you execute well, but ROB goes a bit beyond that and has the potential to turn many scenarios into "lose-lose" for the opponent.


One example would be Marth: everyone knows he is lethal with Uthrow CG on Spacies, and sometimes Fthrow chains at low %. But say past a certain point on mid-lighter characters, you're given the opportunity to DI his throws in a way that can mitigate your circumstances. With Captain Falcon, despite how fairly easy and free his followups are, there are ways or situations that occur where you can mitigate some of the losses. DI down-away on Dthrow is the most obvious one: in some cases near the edge he has to give up any true follow ups for not having enough room to running jump with momentum to punish that DI.


If you take ROB and place him in those same spots however, nuances like DI down/away to avoid follow ups or mitigate disaster turn into really bad ideas (especially once the edge is concerned). Laser distance, speed, and angles can cover many different DI paths of people who get tossed or smacked offstage. The ability to go lower or further out than the average character can stifle recovery mixups that might seem more reasonable to attempt even against other "good" edgeguarding chars like Sheik. The ability to launch himself vertically, with decent hitboxes to cover above him, means you can't often attempt to recover from higher up.


Like if you strapped a jet pack to Sheik or Falcon, that's kind of what ROB's stifling potential is like when executed well. What makes it weird is that onstage, he mostly looks and operates like a fairly decent, non-crazy character. It's only past that surface glance that you start to see the quaint, understated brutality he dishes out.


All just IMO. Old Pit was similar to this: DI inside leads to longer aerial strings and punishes, DI away sets up for more lethal edgeguards and difficult recovery choices.

 

[Ripple]

Rob doesn't really seem to have the ground mobility to get tons of grabs easily. he lands grabs an ok amount, which I think is pretty fine.

the only "problem" with his throws are f-throw and b-throw are too fast. but they don't seem to kill even with bad DI, just put you in bad positions, like marths.

 

[Life]

So we're complaining about free followups out of throws now?

 

[Frost | Odds]

No one here really wants balance, they just want nerfs to things they don't like. Quite frankly it is disappointing.

Uh, I want nerfs to things I don't like ... about my main. Does that count?

 

[DMG]

Uh, I want nerfs to things I don't like ... about my main. Does that count?

I say PMBR nerfs you, and buffs Bowser.





Player nerfs when PMBR? Soon™?

 

[BlackMamba]

I'd be okay with ROB's dthrow getting nerfed a bit (maybe more KBG or something so followups past like fifty or sixty are harder to get, and you could start the CG on Fox earlier but it'd end earlier too). I'm also okay with them making bthrow and fthrow slightly slower since bthrow laser in particular can lead to ridiculously early deaths on some characters. What I don't want are changes to his aerials; Nair/Bair/Dair are all terribly slow but very potent kills that usually require some thought/skill to land (assuming your opponent is playing intelligently and is anyone other than like). Fair is his fastest aerial and even that isn't terribly fast (Frame 7, I believe). Sure it's an excellent edgeguarding tool and some characters can't really deal with it, but the same is true of D3, and his fair covers more space, plus he has an even easier time getting back to stage after going for the edgeguard. I don't necessarily understand what people want changed about upair. It covers a ton of space above him, but I feel that's more the move being really good than it being OP, it doesn't kill for a long time and generally ends combos strings.

 

[trash?]

I want MK to stop being boring

or maybe not, because MK being boring means I feel more compelled to focus solely on kirby. idk man

ROB got silly grabs, I'm okay with that change over nerfing his cool booststuff, that's what makes him unique

tier list and future changes speculation thread

 

[Frost | Odds]

The Tell The PMDT What To Do With Their Own Damn Game Thread

Seriously though I think it's a bit sad the state MK is in right now; however justified and understandable due to his busted nature in 3.0. He can definitely do stuff, but it just feels like he's a way, way inferior version of Wolf at the moment. wtb nado buffs and stuff pls

 

[trash?]

I still think y'all underrate the hell out of metaknight, even in his snorefest mode

still has s-tier recovery despite his recovery being completely reasonably nerfed across the board, just because literally every special he has is a recovery option, which says a whole lot about how amazing it was in 3.0

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I mean, MK may be underrated (and I very much believe he is), but I think what everyone says about him being flavorless now is completely valid. Ike's not unviable without QDJC or his walljump, with a decent DD, amazing range, good initial dash speed and his throw game giving him enough tools to at least survive - but if they took those things away you'd be damn sure his mains wouldn't want to play him anymore. Even I'd probably switch and I actually MK and Pit this path due to my hard on for all swordies.

He needs something cool, even if it's just an extra jump and faster dair.

 

[PlateProp]

ROB's throws are a little ridiculous, but Robo Laser needs to be looked at before anything else.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just throwing stuff out there for the sake of it, but I think Tornado could actually stand to be nearly lagless; and to autocancel when you land out of specialfall from it. It's very, very easy to challenge that move and hit MK out of it, so I don't see why it should also be highly punishable upon ending. The Tornado is a highly iconic move for MK in general; I'd get pretty hype to see it used in combos in a fashion roughly similar to Mewtwo's nair, as well as for positioning.

MK's dash speed could also probably stand a buff, both to make him more entertaining to watch, and to help compensate for his butt-tier grab range and mediocre throws.

/tellingPMDTwhattodowiththeirowndamngame

I don't know if I'd place MK bottom 5 right now, but definitely bottom 10 in my opinion.

 

[PlateProp]

Just throwing stuff out there for the sake of it, but I think Tornado could actually stand to be nearly lagless; and to autocancel when you land out of specialfall from it. It's very, very easy to challenge that move and hit MK out of it, so I don't see why it should also be highly punishable. The Tornado is a highly iconic move for MK in general; I'd get pretty hype to see it used in combos in a fashion roughly similar to Mewtwo's nair, as well as for positioning.

MK's dash speed could also probably stand a buff, both to make him more entertaining to watch, and to help compensate for his butt-tier grab range and mediocre throws.

/tellingPMDTwhattodowiththeirowndamngame

I don't know if I'd place MK bottom 5 right now, but definitely bottom 10 in my opinion.

/actinglikeyoudontalreadydothatwithbowser

 

[Frost | Odds]

I absolutely do that with Bowser - I wrote a goddamn 22 page manifesto. Difference is I'm actually sort of qualified to speak about Bowser. Sort of.

What do y'all think about Ivy? After picking her up I keep flip flopping on whether she's perfect or maybe a tiny bit on the weak side. Definitely a design jewel at this point, in either case.

 

[trash?]

thing is, lagless 'nado = even easier recovery, the landing lag makes it punishable currently

I mean, I'm not against the thought, but you'd need a good counter-balance for it so it isn't a lazy get-back-on-stage-free option

e: I made a bunch of thoughts in the MK wishlist thread at their subforum, seems like a better place to plop it than here

http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-6-mk-change-suggestions.387945/#post-19118298

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I can't tell if its bad CPU DI, but Meta Knights throw game isn't centralized around one stupid good throw with other mediocre throws that are sometimes good. It seems every one of his throws has a definitive use. Would it be too different from what we are used to and try and emulate this with other throws? As much as we complain about throws like R.O.B. Dthrow, we as smashers don't know how to function with anything else. I know @Lunchables has a pretty radical view of throws, maybe he could weigh in?

 

[Deleted member]

my issue with rob is that his defenses are too good, not his offensive poweer which is 100% fine imo. dthrow is godly but i wouldnt change it at all. the real issue with rob is that you have no real punishment game on him due to his built in characteristics- hes a heavy floaty where his side b can reactively beat projectiles, boost escapes juggles and positioning traps, and the only good kill setups that work on him are ones that are already other broken things that are also subject to change like say shine upsmash.

to my wit @Lunchables and i have talked about rob at length, and he has proposed a handful of changes to address the character at large, and they were spot on, but at this point i pretty much just wish rob had a combo weight akin to link ganondorf lucario ish

 

[trash?]

I can't tell if its bad CPU DI

it probably is, DI'ing away from uthrow works every time on everyone except for maybe snake

 

[ChiePet]

I will miss Metaknights DiveKick/True "MKRevenge" DAir forever

Broke is one thing, it's the chaotic things the broken-ness of the move created that made them fun, win or lose. sigh.
#RIPInPiece

 

[Boiko]

In regards to tier list speculation, can we talk about how Ness is bottom five and Fox is broken beyond comprehension?

Spoiler

 

[Frost | Odds]

Cactuar is a shrub.

Seriously though good job. Is there a vod?

 

[trash?]

In regards to tier list speculation, can we talk about how Ness is bottom five and Fox is broken beyond comprehension?

Spoiler

counterpoint: people that main project m damn well better beat melee fox players that just do PM on the side since it's nearly the same character to them

tho @Umbreon already made that point earlier, and with far better wording methinks

 

[Deleted member]

I can't tell if its bad CPU DI, but Meta Knights throw game isn't centralized around one stupid good throw with other mediocre throws that are sometimes good. It seems every one of his throws has a definitive use. Would it be too different from what we are used to and try and emulate this with other throws? As much as we complain about throws like R.O.B. Dthrow, we as smashers don't know how to function with anything else. I know @Lunchables has a pretty radical view of throws, maybe he could weigh in?

I hate rob because of his D throw, but honestly his D throw isn't his main problem. Its his attributes/special moves. He has a lot of problems, but the character isn't relevant in many regions so I look like an idiot when I say hes pretty toxic

ALSO I WANTED TO LEAVE THIS THREAD STOP TAGGING ME AGAIN YOU IDIOTS