Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

stop whining you get cool spikes

 

[Chevy]

No disrespect to headcrab, but his game still needs an awful lot of polish, especially in terms of punish game and regular fundamentals. He's a super talented player (and did very well against me in friendlies!), but doesn't yet appear to have the experience necessary to take Ganon to the next level.

Everyone in Washington sucks, our scene is weak because our only good players don't put any time into PM. I will say that despite his 4th place finish, Headcrab looked worse than he is at NWM. It sucks that his most notable set was beating PewPewU 2-0, when he played like absolute trash the whole match. That was a really bad set.

Also Bowser is super OP so you can't judge anyone's skill.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Except high-pressure water is used in industrial applications to cut steel. I'm fairly sure that would screw you up pretty hard if you were blasted with it.

The media made this one up.

 

[Binary Clone]

Except high-pressure water is used in industrial applications to cut steel. I'm fairly sure that would screw you up pretty hard if you were blasted with it.

Those cutters are scary as ****. You do not wanna get touched by one. If that kind of cutter touches you, it can shred you on the inside. Even apparently small lacerations can be brutal once you look under the skin because of the way the kinetic energy disperses inside your body. Besides that, the stream can deflect off of your bones and continue shredding you at a different angle from the entry angle, which is just kind of scary in general.

TL;DR water is scary, therefore Squirtle is OP



Really though, I think tech rolls are one of the things that needs to be looked at. Is there currently a rationale as to why everyone has the tech roll that they do? A lot of them just seem the way the are because "that's the way they were" either in Melee or in Brawl.

 

[steelguttey]

binary stop being smart this is the tier list thread

 

[Frost | Odds]

I will say that despite his 4th place finish, Headcrab looked worse than he is at NWM

This I can confirm. Like I said, he did very well against me in friendlies.

Also Bowser is super OP

 

[JOE!]

Oh, you can't technology. I thought you were just trolling me.

Bit of both

I put him beneath DK because I can think of few things Zard can do that DK can't (kill floaties SUPER easily, I suppose) but DK's grab game helps to mitigate his fatty weakness (huge hitbox, easy to pressure) by increasing the risk 10-fold. And I think that's a pretty good reason for DK to be a mostly better Zard.

But the tiers in this game are all super close so meh. Both are fine.

Zard is the 5th fastest character on the ground, and with his Down B can be pretty much anywhere on the screen he wants in the blink of an eye to chase people. He has a grab game that may as well be on par with DK with faster speed to take advantage (he tech chases, raw KO's or sets up semi-true combos from his throws with Bthrow or can just get huge positioning via Fthrow if not kill some FFers with it), and unlike DK has disjoints.

 

[4tlas]

Zard is the 5th fastest character on the ground, and with his Down B can be pretty much anywhere on the screen he wants in the blink of an eye to chase people. He has a grab game that may as well be on par with DK with faster speed to take advantage (he tech chases, raw KO's or sets up semi-true combos from his throws with Bthrow or can just get huge positioning via Fthrow if not kill some FFers with it), and unlike DK has disjoints.

All valid points for strengths he has that DK doesn't. But DK also has a smaller hurtbox, a better shield (due to size and grab game), a faster fall speed (which leads to great combos, a decent shffl, and the ability to drop out of juggles with good DI), faster aerials, and more things I could list but I don't play DK. Perhaps I overestimate the strength of having a smaller hurtbox due to mainly playing Zelda, but that also makes me underestimate the shield grab, so idk.

Zard is a good character, and maybe he is on DK's level. Maybe I shouldn't put DK above everyone else down there. So now the question is why is Zard better than all those other characters by enough of a margin that I should bump him up?

 

[JOE!]

I'm not sure if he has a smaller hurtbox...

The fall speed also means he is juggled more

 

[4tlas]

I'm not sure if he has a smaller hurtbox...

The fall speed also means he is juggled more

Are we talking about combos or juggles? When I say juggles I'm referring to vertical strings, essentially. Charizard gets stuck in the air and can't get back down. Donkey Kong DIs away and gets low enough to be hit with horizontal moves, at which point he upBs back to the stage. Of course until then he's being combo'd, but the combo ends earlier than the juggle would.

I'm pretty sure he has a smaller hurtbox. Maybe I just respect his zone more? Hmm.

 

[Binary Clone]

Ok I'd like to post a tier list despite being some random scrub. I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak and be disregarded no matter what I say, and I am fully aware that I will be wrong somewhere.

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half

Is...

Is nobody going to mention that he put Ivysaur over Falco?

What?

I mean, Falco is the least of the spacies in my opinion, but there's no way that he's #15+

 

[Chevy]

This I can confirm. Like I said, he did very well against me in friendlies.

I learned yesterday that if you press A immediately after grabbing someone with Koopa Klaw, the animation plays at double speed. What the random why is that? It makes the move difficult to DI properly if you play a lighter character. I went mostly Bowser at our little weekly yesterday and spacies cried.

 

[4tlas]

Is...

Is nobody going to mention that he put Ivysaur over Falco?

What?

I mean, Falco is the least of the spacies in my opinion, but there's no way that he's #15+

Would you care to elaborate?

Falco has a worse combo weight and a worse recovery, but his strengths are in his lockdown projectile and super consistent combo game. I think Ivysaur can approach and force approaches with well spaced bairs (almost as good as laser, if not better in some scenarios), and any characters she can't combo she can usually zone out or juggle. And she does this without getting touch-of-death'd.

Edit: Oh, and its important to mention that Ivysaur has fallback options if her gameplan doesn't quite work out. Falco has...bair and fsmash? He's a solid character, but I don't think he's in the top 10 for sure. Also remember I threw Sheilda in there, in case that matters.

 

[Frost | Odds]

View attachment 50371
I learned yesterday that if you press A immediately after grabbing someone with Koopa Klaw, the animation plays at double speed. What the random why is that? It makes the move difficult to DI properly if you play a lighter character. I went mostly Bowser at our little weekly yesterday and spacies cried.

The default animation is very slow to give the Bowser player time to choose which throw he wants to use.

It's still very, very easy to DI the fthrow away. Koopa Klaw is one of the slowest grabs in the game, and the throw animations are quick, but not atypically so. I almost never get fthrow followups (or Klaw grabs in general) against my regular practice partners.

Bowser's punish game against spacies is dumb, but they still beat him matchup-wise as long as they play intelligently. They can 0-death him just as hard as he 0-deaths them; and their neutral game is much stronger.

 

[Boiko]

I think Bowser is the hardest MU in the game if you don't have MU experience. Once you know what he can do it's a lot easier.

 

[Binary Clone]

Falco has a worse combo weight and a worse recovery, but his strengths are in his lockdown projectile and super consistent combo game.

This is only partially true. Yes, Falco covers less distance with his recovery, but he also has more options and his recovery is much less punishable. His strength in his lockdown projectile is really a strength in an overwhelming neutral game.

I think Ivysaur can approach and force approaches with well spaced bairs (almost as good as laser, if not better in some scenarios), and any characters she can't combo she can usually zone out or juggle. And she does this without getting touch-of-death'd.

That's a pretty huge stretch. I don't think anyone can really say that spaced bairs are anywhere near as good as Falco's laser. Falco's laser is free pressure, stage control, and approach. Ivy's bair controls a little bit of space in front of her. I agree that her bair is great and underutilized, but it still doesn't compare to laser.

Edit: Oh, and its important to mention that Ivysaur has fallback options if her gameplan doesn't quite work out. Falco has...bair and fsmash? He's a solid character, but I don't think he's in the top 10 for sure. Also remember I threw Sheilda in there, in case that matters.

Uh, I think you're forgetting that Falco has one of the best dairs in the game and a frame 1 move that also happens to be one of the best combo starters in the game, which also happens to combo into his dair, or his bair. He has actual shield pressure, unlike Ivy, and a decent grab game. Oh, and he also has a very good shorthop and a sex kick.


Ivy doesn't have the tools to make up for her shortcomings. Her grab is too slow for her to effectively punish decent shield pressure, she has next to no pressure herself, and has extremely limited OoS options. Ivy's problem is that she breaks down under pressure. She can wall people out with bairs fairly effectively, but once that breaks down, she struggles a lot. That combined with her btether recovery means that against many, many characters, if Ivy has to recover from below the stage, you get a pretty free stock if you play even decently.

Characters that are both very common and top tier, like Fox and Falcon, destroy Ivy in many scenarios, and other common characters like Marth also give her trouble. With so much of the top tier and just popular characters in general making her struggle, along with her problems dealing with pressure and recovering from below the stage, it's tough to say that she's anywhere above upper mid.

 

[4tlas]

This is only partially true. Yes, Falco covers less distance with his recovery, but he also has more options and his recovery is much less punishable. His strength in his lockdown projectile is really a strength in an overwhelming neutral game.



That's a pretty huge stretch. I don't think anyone can really say that spaced bairs are anywhere near as good as Falco's laser. Falco's laser is free pressure, stage control, and approach. Ivy's bair controls a little bit of space in front of her. I agree that her bair is great and underutilized, but it still doesn't compare to laser.



Uh, I think you're forgetting that Falco has one of the best dairs in the game and a frame 1 move that also happens to be one of the best combo starters in the game, which also happens to combo into his dair, or his bair. He has actual shield pressure, unlike Ivy, and a decent grab game. Oh, and he also has a very good shorthop and a sex kick.


Ivy doesn't have the tools to make up for her shortcomings. Her grab is too slow for her to effectively punish decent shield pressure, she has next to no pressure herself, and has extremely limited OoS options. Ivy's problem is that she breaks down under pressure. She can wall people out with bairs fairly effectively, but once that breaks down, she struggles a lot. That combined with her btether recovery means that against many, many characters, if Ivy has to recover from below the stage, you get a pretty free stock if you play even decently.

Characters that are both very common and top tier, like Fox and Falcon, destroy Ivy in many scenarios, and other common characters like Marth also give her trouble. With so much of the top tier and just popular characters in general making her struggle, along with her problems dealing with pressure and recovering from below the stage, it's tough to say that she's anywhere above upper mid.

Those are fair points. Falco's dair and shine require him to get in close, and I suppose I have never been personally bothered by it so I figured it wasn't that effective against other players as well. I also play a character that has great difficulty punishing a b-tether, so that is something I hadn't considered fully.

I suppose the argument that the good characters are her counters has a lot of merit that I hadn't considered. I think you've made a fair argument that I've put Ivy too high, but I still don't think Falco is too low. Is there anything else you feel should be reconsidered?


Edit: So I would edit my list to this for now

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half

 

[Chevy]

The default animation is very slow to give the Bowser player time to choose which throw he wants to use.

It's still very, very easy to DI the fthrow away. Koopa Klaw is one of the slowest grabs in the game, and the throw animations are quick, but not atypically so. I almost never get fthrow followups (or Klaw grabs in general) against my regular practice partners.

Bowser's punish game against spacies is dumb, but they still beat him matchup-wise as long as they play intelligently. They can 0-death him just as hard as he 0-deaths them; and their neutral game is much stronger.

I don't think a single person I played against DI'd it all night, very, very easy it clearly is not. I'm not trying to claim that Bowser beats Fox, but I could definitely believe he beast Falco and beats or goes even with Wolf. Any time they are offstage they're dead. Ledge drop double jump n-air covers every option they have, unless they happened to be launched to the corner, which is unlikely, given the angle all of Bowser's aerials send at. Hell, nair from ledge covers just about every recovery in the game.

 

[Agi]

I think Bowser is the hardest MU in the game if you don't have MU experience. Once you know what he can do it's a lot easier.

Maybe not the best thread to bring it up in, but I'm finding that to be the case with a huge chunk of the cast. Can't tell you how many times I've been dumbfounded by how a character functions and thought they were much stronger than they actually were until a DI trick or general strategy cropped up, I was able to integrate it, and the matchup made that much more sense. Fighting a character specialist of a character you've never fought before is basically a puzzle boss as you figure out what works and what doesn't, hopefully quickly enough to steal two games off a set before they do. It's what keeps me coming back to PM but also why I'm starting to understand those who don't appreciate its high level of "jank."

(And also why making a tier list or community-agreed upon matchup spreadsheet is so difficult, there's 40 whole characters you have to have a decent understanding of besides the one you play in order to have a meaningful conversation, it's ridiculous)

 

[Idostuff]

Is it me, or does everyone think that the character they main is weaker than everyone else does. Like you know your own character's weakness better than others. I know Hbox doesn't think that Jiggly is worse than people think, and that Zero wasn't completely sure that Diddy was the best in Smash 4.

Ganon is bad relatively, but at least he is fun to play. As far as other slow characters go, i don't ever see them being great. In a game so based off of movement, slow characters who hit harder will always lose. Melee Ganon vs Cpt. Falcon proves that, and 3.5 Link vs Tink proves that.

 

[ChiePet]

Falcon's nair is a combo ender?

Uhh, No. C.Falc's NAir as another 2-Hit Move/Tool that Often does not support the second hit or have adequate uses.
Still, I wish ZSSamus's FAir first hit would get the same minor amount of lock that Falcons does. His, although still not well, can at least combo both hits effectively, hers I use 9/10 times as a Fake first hit into the second, or as a visual Metronome for the Second kicks timing.

That's what uptilt does. Uptilt is a completely fine multhit move, as is up-b and (for the most part) side b (the hitbox closer to you doesn't link to the sweetspot on some characters even if they don't sdi or cc, but I bet it's impossible to make it work for every character.)

Not exactly sure UTilt can reach as High up as USmash can; I'd rather have them think they're safe being as high up as they are and catch them off guard instead of waiting them to drop down to UTilt's max reach. I guess you didn't understand what I was talking about when talking about Up B either, but It's not worth much more than wishing, still, that USmash wasn't s***.

EDIT: Topic wise; I think Squirtle players BIGGEST problem is until they have Wavedashing, Wave Landing, Shell-Sling, Hydro-pivot, Hydroplaning, and simply ALL their movement down completely, they look super predictable and linear. His movement has to be unpredictable, erratic as possible even, and make the opponent think the opposite is coming than what happens, because Squirtle's definitely not bad. He makes Jiggz look worse doing her walling for her. I think so far I've seen Dad use Squirtles movement best, not to say I've actively sought out squirtle players to watch though.

I think as far as Underrated characters go, aside from the obvious/obligatory Peach is still Melee Peach and you'll suffer for ignoring her, would have to be Mario or Luigi. It's been a while since I've seen a reaally good luigi, and Mario always seems amazing for such a simple character.

 

[Sardonyx]

Is it me, or does everyone think that the character they main is weaker than everyone else does. Like you know your own character's weakness better than others. I know Hbox doesn't think that Jiggly is worse than people think, and that Zero wasn't completely sure that Diddy was the best in Smash 4.

Ganon is bad relatively, but at least he is fun to play. As far as other slow characters go, i don't ever see them being great. In a game so based off of movement, slow characters who hit harder will always lose. Melee Ganon vs Cpt. Falcon proves that, and 3.5 Link vs Tink proves that.

Literally back when I used to main Zelda in 3.02 I would explain to people that she's not some impossible tank to get in on, you just have to play a bit smarter and don't blindly approach her, and yet people still screamed broken so

 

[Strong Badam]

Is it me, or does everyone think that the character they main is weaker than everyone else does. Like you know your own character's weakness better than others. I know Hbox doesn't think that Jiggly is worse than people think, and that Zero wasn't completely sure that Diddy was the best in Smash 4.

Yeah, players tend to underrate their characters, at least marginally. "No dude, you're just not playing the matchup right, my character instant-loses to X option" is thrown around frequently, and even if there's some truth to the incorrect approach to a MU concept, you can only see good players encounter the matchup so many times and fail to reach this apparent level of correct play before you come to a different conclusion. Fox mains, lol.

Notable exceptions to that trend that immediately come to mind include Lunchables (He thinks Roy is top and Tink is high tier, and thinks both should probably be nerfed in some way) and ESAM, who thinks every character he ever mains is better than most other people think. He said Samus was the best in 3.0 until he ran into Mewtwos, then he said Samus was the 2nd best. He also put Pikachu in Brawl higher than most and felt he had an even MU with MK for a really long time, and also said Smash 4 Pika was top 3 pre-patch and 1st post-patch (no customs). Umbreon has also said Sheik is top 5 in PM for a really long time.

I'd like to think I'm generally fair/accurate when it comes to gauging my own characters' capability. I tend to wait a good amount of time after a set, and rewatch it if I can, before I try to draw conclusions from it. I also try to account for my own local meta (two best Roy players and the best Tink, among others) not necessarily being representative of the meta as a whole, and rather consider their MUs against likely tournament threats on a national stage where all the big names are present. Like I think Toon Link is Wario's worst MU by a significant margin, but there's 1 top level Tink so like it's not a huge hit to his ability to perform in tournament; his poor MUs vs Fox and Marth are far more relevant due to the frequency of those characters. I don't let Toon Link's immediate relevance to my Wario's local success dictate how viable I think he is in the metagame as a whole.
Contrarily, DK is usable vs both of those Roy players locally, but many of the matchups you would face deep in bracket are not Roy and do not favor DK. So I rate DK lower on my list than his usability in my local metagame would suggest. [/random rant/thought]

 

[Foo]

Uhh, No. C.Falc's NAir as another 2-Hit Move/Tool that Often does not support the second hit or have adequate uses.
Still, I wish ZSSamus's FAir first hit would get the same minor amount of lock that Falcons does. His, although still not well, can at least combo both hits effectively, hers I use 9/10 times as a Fake first hit into the second, or as a visual Metronome for the Second kicks timing.

Well, falcon nair not being a combo finisher was my point. It's kinda silly to have a combo finisher that zss relies on to convert kills to be a multihit with so much time between hits (i.e. not like foxes) Faclon's multihit nair works very well for his purpose, as do characters like ganon and link, but zss fair realy doesn't make sense as a multihit move. Not saying fair is a useless move or anything of the such, I just think it's bad design for zss fair to be a multi hit in it's current form.

Not exactly sure UTilt can reach as High up as USmash can; I'd rather have them think they're safe being as high up as they are and catch them off guard instead of waiting them to drop down to UTilt's max reach. I guess you didn't understand what I was talking about when talking about Up B either, but It's not worth much more than wishing, still, that USmash wasn't s***.

Well, based on this quote from you that I quoted when making that statement

"Landing a move to land it aside, I like the idea of trying to keep an opponent airborn 1-2 times to throw Up B instead and have them get caught off guard being instantly thrown onto the ground in front of me vs being in the air trying to get away."

It sounded like you were describing a situation where you knock an opponent into the air and then up-b them back into the ground. On some characters, uptilt-uptilt-up-b-tech chase works or sometimes something like nair-uptilt-up-b-tech chase. Upsmash doesn't really work for that because it usually sends them high enough for you to have to jump and up-b to pull them down.

 

[Boiko]

^^That's because good players understand their character's strengths and weaknesses and bad players like to blame the character instead of themselves or inflate their ego by making it seem like they won an impossible matchup.

 

[Ningildo]

Yeah, SB is right.

Obviously Olimar isn't bottom. Not even being sarcastic.

I'm still wondering how people think Olimar sucks and whatnot when 90% of players have never even played one. Seriously.
Olimar is pretty good when you don't play against Fox or swordies...oh right.

But other then that, the only real problem Olimar has is a lack of representation. Need to find out what a perfect secondary is for Oli, too...

Speaking of which, I think that eventually secondaries will almost be mandatory to cover bad matchups (cause 41 characters and all that). With that said, what pairings of main/secondary do you guys think will be effective?

 

[Life]

It will never be impossible to solo main Fox.

Beyond that, other than the top 5-10 players, there will basically never be a matchup problem that can't be solved simply by getting better at the game. Sheik loses pretty hard to ICs (not sure about PM but definitely true in Melee) but I'm willing to bet the best Sheiks can beat any non-noteworthy ICs player.

 

[Ningildo]

I am 90% sure that relying on your opponent being worse then you is not gonna help when facing a player that is as skilled as you are, but has the mu advantage.

You SHOULD try finding a way to make a bad mu evenish, adding new things to your game and all (and every character is far, far away from being optimized), but if after that a mu is still bad, you should pocket a character for those mus to boost your chances of winning. No point starting on the backfoot if you don't have to, right?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't think a single person I played against DI'd it all night, very, very easy it clearly is not.

You literally just said yourself that WA's scene is terrible. Are you likely to get the DI the first couple times you play against it? Of course not. Once you're actually watching for the Klaw, though (ie. actually playing the matchup), it's incredibly easy. I never miss the DI in the ditto, and my old practice partners (who are bad, but familiar with the matchup) only miss it very rarely - maybe 1 in 10 times, if that.

I'm not trying to claim that Bowser beats Fox, but I could definitely believe he beast Falco and beats or goes even with Wolf. Any time they are offstage they're dead. Ledge drop double jump n-air covers every option they have, unless they happened to be launched to the corner, which is unlikely, given the angle all of Bowser's aerials send at. Hell, nair from ledge covers just about every recovery in the game.

Bowser has guaranteed edgeguards against the spacies most of the time and has some 0-deaths, but they all do the same in return to bowser, and are far stronger in the neutral game.

I'd absolutely buy that he beats spacies on FD, and maybe Fox on WW, but even then I'm pretty skeptical. This sounds like salt.

 

[Deleted member]

Like I think Toon Link is Wario's worst MU by a significant margin, but there's 1 top level Tink so like it's not a huge hit to his ability to perform in tournament[/random rant/thought]

you've never shared with me that you think toon link is warios worst MU

...

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

you've never shared with me that you think toon link is warios worst MU

...

Lucario has a bad neutral.

edit:

It will never be impossible to solo main Fox.

Beyond that, other than the top 5-10 players, there will basically never be a matchup problem that can't be solved simply by getting better at the game. Sheik loses pretty hard to ICs (not sure about PM but definitely true in Melee) but I'm willing to bet the best Sheiks can beat any non-noteworthy ICs player.

pretty sure sheik vs ICs is you transform at the start of the match, try not to die for it, and then roflstomp them hilariously bad for 3 minutes with sparkles.

 

[941]

pretty sure sheik vs ICs is you transform at the start of the match, try not to die for it, and then roflstomp them hilariously bad for 3 minutes with sparkles.

Yeah, Zelda is pretty frustrating to play against with ICs. ICs have a slight advantage against Sheik due to having a D-throw CG that works to a pretty high percent. It's still very winnable for Sheik if She can platform camp with needles and space well with B-air. The only time Sheik loses hard to ICs is on FD, but that can be banned by Sheik in every game.

 

[DMG]

Conventional wisdom would be that you should play more than 1 character in PM if your character has legit MU flaws that will show up in tourney (which theoretically would apply to a bigger portion of the cast than most people currently seem to believe)

Practical application though tends to show that players do better when they focus on 1 character exclusively

Not many people can use more than 1 character at a level that's definitely ready for high level tournament play, so it's not entirely advisable to suggest they split up into 2 chars

Therefore, nerf Samus

 

[JOE!]

"Everyone says their main sucks"

Im just here talking about how Zard doesnt suck when everyone else says he does

 

[DMG]

I feel like this is a perfect time to talk about how much Charizard sucks

I mean really, why does he have to glide with his head sticking out so far? I didn't realize he was a flying Giraffe, I thought he was a Fire Chicken Dinosaur. Please buff his GHH : Gliding Head Hurtbox

 

[Boiko]

"Everyone says their main sucks"

Im just here talking about how Zard doesnt suck when everyone else says he does

Same, but with Ness.

 

[Player -0]

I've already given my opinions on my character.

Random button is op.

 

[Rawkobo]

Speaking of which, I think that eventually secondaries will almost be mandatory to cover bad matchups (cause 41 characters and all that). With that said, what pairings of main/secondary do you guys think will be effective?

I'm more curious about when the cutoff point is for needing a secondary, since one could argue you don't really need one for most top/high tiers in this game without a real need to worry about the matchups.

Mind you, I'm waiting for the ICs bugfix in 3.6 before I make any real opinion about any sort of tier list whatsoever, despite liking some of the ones I've seen. But I think if you're roughly A- tier, you can get by in this game without needing backup.

 

[Chevy]

You literally just said yourself that WA's scene is terrible. Are you likely to get the DI the first couple times you play against it? Of course not. Once you're actually watching for the Klaw, though (ie. actually playing the matchup), it's incredibly easy. I never miss the DI in the ditto, and my old practice partners (who are bad, but familiar with the matchup) only miss it very rarely - maybe 1 in 10 times, if that.


Bowser has guaranteed edgeguards against the spacies most of the time and has some 0-deaths, but they all do the same in return to bowser, and are far stronger in the neutral game.

I'd absolutely buy that he beats spacies on FD, and maybe Fox on WW, but even then I'm pretty skeptical. This sounds like salt.

I didn't say it was super difficult, but everyone missing it(including those who I've played hours of my Bowser against indicate that it's not "very, very, easy". This is also evidenced by world class players like Bladewise missing it every time at NWM(yes he doesn't know the matchup at all, but I'm sure he understands how angles and DI works). I also assumed it was weight dependent, and that it would be easier for Samus, than say Fox(I tested it and this is not the case). I'm just trying to make a point of a move that you criminally underrate being very good. I think it's one of those instances where your practice partners matchup knowledge is the Odds matchup, not necessarily the Bowser one. Additionally, it's much much easier for Bowser to edgeguard spacies than the opposite. His up-B hitbox is very very good, and they have little baby robot legs that have a hard to not getting sucked into the swirling spiky deathtrap, vs. nair->dead.

And it's not salt, I have no reason to be salty. I don't miss Klaw DI(aside from a few times in our friendlies, at the time I didn't know why yours was so fast). It's more that I feel guilty for piloting this powerhouse of pure brutality against poor unsuspecting spacy players that have to play much better to match Bowser's absurd punish game.

TL;DR: I agree that Bowser needs redesigned pretty bad, despite him being incredibly fun to play right now.

 

[steelguttey]

Same, but with Ness.

same, but with jetpacks!