Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

This is the exact reason yeah.

 

[un.dead]

Never mind

 

[JOE!]

I play swordies.
As such, Olimar appears even worse to me then other people.
Poor ******* can't even get in, much less recover.

I read this in Dickson's voice and it sounds 300% better.

@FOX and why he's good: Its because he has an outstanding neutral -and- punish game -and- the ability to both camp or approach very effectively in nearly every MU. So whereas say, Marth may have MUs where he is pushed into a corner figuratively due to his gameplan being limited... Fox can just switch to a different gameplan that works just as well as his others.

 

[Frost | Odds]

EVERYONE LAUGHED WHEN I PUT ROB IN TOP TIER

AND LOOK AT YOU GUYS NOW

>=[

I didn't say it was super difficult, but everyone missing it(including those who I've played hours of my Bowser against indicate that it's not "very, very, easy". This is also evidenced by world class players like Bladewise missing it every time at NWM(yes he doesn't know the matchup at all, but I'm sure he understands how angles and DI works).

I can't say the thought occurred to me, but I wouldn't count Bladewise as evidence. He was playing really badly (or seemed to be), was incredibly salty and seemed to refuse to actually learn how to play the MU. It's not the kind of thing most people can pick up over the course of a game or two, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly easy in the context of other matchup-specific things players need to do in other MUs (such as rest Sheik's dash attacks, for example).

It wasn't a coincidence that I didn't MM anyone I was terrified of before the bracket. I didn't want to give anyone a chance to learn the matchup. Kinda grimy, but it certainly helped.

I'm just trying to make a point of a move that you criminally underrate being very good.

It's alright in the context of a Bowser that has the awesome heavy-armored nair and flame cancel on top of the Klaw - the mixup potential is too great right now, and that sort of makes Klaw better by extension. You're still criminally underrating the value of matchup knowledge and experience: there's a very limited number of situations where Bowser can get the Klaw off, and it's very possible to spotdodge it on reaction in every one of those barring tech chase situations and when the Bowser player armors through something with the grounded version.

I think it's one of those instances where your practice partners matchup knowledge is the Odds matchup, not necessarily the Bowser one.

That's possible, but again, there's a very limited number of situations where the Klaw is a meaningful option - namely, when falling on someone's shield at very close range. The mixup is very discrete and very easy to see coming. Even if you fail the spotdodge, again, there's no DI mixup most of the time and both the grab and the fthrow are fairly slow, meaning that there's no real excuse for missing the DI.

Additionally, it's much much easier for Bowser to edgeguard spacies than the opposite. His up-B hitbox is very very good, and they have little baby robot legs that have a hard to not getting sucked into the swirling spiky deathtrap, vs. nair->dead.

Strongly disagree. Bowser has nowhere near the vertical air mobility of the spacies, nor does he have a mixup that all but instantly places him directly onstage with no endlag. All any spacie player ever has to do in most edgeguarding situations is ledge grab -> bair.

And it's not salt, I have no reason to be salty. I don't miss Klaw DI(aside from a few times in our friendlies, at the time I didn't know why yours was so fast). It's more that I feel guilty for piloting this powerhouse of pure brutality against poor unsuspecting spacy players that have to play much better to match Bowser's absurd punish game.

I'd definitely agree that the effort:results ratio for Bowser at low levels is tremendously skewed. Against high level players who understand the matchup, however, it's still skewed, but in the opposite direction.

TL;DR: I agree that Bowser needs redesigned pretty bad, despite him being incredibly fun to play right now.

He is fun to play, but I think at the moment he's a bit shallow. An awful lot of his options are completely redundant and don't provide a lot of decision tree depth or breadth either in the neutral or punish game.

Sorry for being argumentative, heh

 

[Deleted member]

Same, but with Ness.

no one thinks ness sucks except nza and we all ignore him

edit:

EVERYONE LAUGHED WHEN I PUT ROB IN TOP TIER

AND LOOK AT YOU GUYS NOW

>=[

rob was in my top 5 literally the first day that 3.5 came out. as was roy.

edit 2:

I think sheik beats IC's in PM... >_>.

you're crazy. actually crazy. do not pass go, do not collect $200, cold ****ing nuts.

 

[DMG]

On second thought, nevermind. Judging by the first and only useless reply I'd be better off going somewhere else for an answer.

???

Not sure what you asked for since posts were edited

Also Ripple you should play Samus. Not because she covers D3 well, but because she is mad bitchin yo. You can be the guy to actually use her crawl well

 

[Deleted member]

rob was in my top 5 literally the first day that 3.5 came out. as was roy.

I've said Rob and Roy are ******** forever

Everyone always agrees with me on the roy part though, and for a long time the rob people were like "Uhh robs perfectly fine and you just suck because you lose to df/oracle" while ignoring the characters obvious bad design/busted ****

In general I kind of hate when I get flack for saying "nerf etc character" after I lose to them, because people ALSO forget that I constantly ask to nerf both of my own characters, and nerf characters that I consistently beat (Such as Hamyojos Yoshi). Its really stupid how some people are like "Well if hes a good player and hes winning, his character is obviously not busted. Your character is only busted if you're bad and you're winning." Good players pick ******** characters, too. /rant

 

[Hylian]

you're crazy. actually crazy. do not pass go, do not collect $200, cold ****ing nuts.

Nah man, played optimally IC's just really have a rough time ever grabbing her or getting in or living or anything when she plays super needle campy against them. I usually like it when people play campy against me because it gives me lots of chances to grab them and IC's have high damage output, but needles just passing right through blizzard and iceblocks lets her disrupt almost all of their desynch set-ups and just shuts their WD game down. Similar to why Ivy beats them but not nearly as bad.

I mean..I think it's close to even either way lol, and I think IC's win if sheik plays normal and not match-up specific, which requires the sheik to understand quite a bit about IC's.

 

[Chevy]

Strongly disagree. Bowser has nowhere near the vertical air mobility of the spacies, nor does he have a mixup that all but instantly places him directly onstage with no endlag. All any spacie player ever has to do in most edgeguarding situations is ledge grab -> bair.

This works assuming Bowser has to come from level with the stage or below, in which case yeah he's easy to hit with invinciblity. But if he still has his big old double jump and can threaten recovering high, it's pretty hard to intercept. Or at least your spacing has to be really on point. And spacies recover high mix-up doesn't work great when Bowser is under 100% because of his monstrous ledge jump to cover going high on reaction.

 

[Frost | Odds]

When recovering high, it's still super easy to bair bowser. He has literally the biggest hurtbox in the game, and not a lot of aerial mobility.

He can go very high with his ledge jump, but it's still not as fast as spacies' jumps, often requires hard reads on whether the spacie is doing upB or sideB (and, if the former, which direction), and of course requires him to be coming from the ledge.

He has amazing edgeguarding tools, but at high level play you're seriously overrating them with respect to the spacie matchups.

 

[Chevy]

When recovering high, it's still super easy to bair bowser. He has literally the biggest hurtbox in the game, and not a lot of aerial mobility.

He can go very high with his ledge jump, but it's still not as fast as spacies' jumps, often requires hard reads on whether the spacie is doing upB or sideB (and, if the former, which direction), and of course requires him to be coming from the ledge.

He has amazing edgeguarding tools, but at high level play you're seriously overrating them with respect to the spacie matchups.

You would know better. I just feel so powerful when I can actually cover near every option. My character is too damn slow and awkward to get those little ******** most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah man, played optimally IC's just really have a rough time ever grabbing her or getting in or living or anything when she plays super needle campy against them. I usually like it when people play campy against me because it gives me lots of chances to grab them and IC's have high damage output, but needles just passing right through blizzard and iceblocks lets her disrupt almost all of their desynch set-ups and just shuts their WD game down. Similar to why Ivy beats them but not nearly as bad.

I mean..I think it's close to even either way lol, and I think IC's win if sheik plays normal and not match-up specific, which requires the sheik to understand quite a bit about IC's.

in general mid-level players tend to overrrate the neutral game and underrate the punishment game. needles are only good on stage for shutting down mediocre approach options (approaching with ICs specials is okay but obv far from optimized good play) but better players just block them and force sheik to negotiate her position. trust me if just spamming needles was that easy we would be doing it for a LOT more situations than we already do which is basically just harassment and checking to see if you're bad before fishing for AC fair conversions that we don't really deserve. play neutral normally with WD in and out of shield and avoid using desynchs pre-conversion because you can inadvertently get nana separated for no particular reason for giving sheik things to exploit that you dont have to. the MU is basically the same as melee except ICs have a lot more for sheik to deal with and sheik gets... a better transform? when your best option in the MU is to switch away from the character you're playing then its def not a winning MU.

 

[Hylian]

in general mid-level players tend to overrrate the neutral game and underrate the punishment game. needles are only good on stage for shutting down mediocre approach options (approaching with ICs specials is okay but obv far from optimized good play) but better players just block them and force sheik to negotiate her position. trust me if just spamming needles was that easy we would be doing it for a LOT more situations than we already do which is basically just harassment and checking to see if you're bad before fishing for AC fair conversions that we don't really deserve. play neutral normally with WD in and out of shield and avoid using desynchs pre-conversion because you can inadvertently get nana separated for no particular reason for giving sheik things to exploit that you dont have to. the MU is basically the same as melee except ICs have a lot more for sheik to deal with and sheik gets... a better transform? when your best option in the MU is to switch away from the character you're playing then its def not a winning MU.

Have you played any PM IC players? Just curious. I'm also not really talking as much about aerial needles, grounded needles by the ledge give IC's more problems, and cause nana to do really weird dumb stuff for some reason. I mean when I thought about the match-up before I played a bunch of sheiks I also though IC's won, but I find the match-up a lot easier in melee after playing it in PM a good amount.

 

[941]

I could be wrong, but I believe there is less landing lag on Sheik's Up-B in PM than in Melee, and that makes Sheik ICs a lot better for Sheik than it was in Melee. Needle camping could always give ICs players trouble, which is why ICs players usually strike/ban Dreamland and Battle Field, but ICs always excelled at edge-guarding Sheik because they could take the ledge and force Sheik to up-B on stage. From there it's really easy to just ledge-dash back onto the stage and D-smash. This is made much better for Sheik without the same landing lag on Up-B. Stages also make this MU better for Sheik, because ICs could always start on a small stage (usually Yoshi's Story, or Fountain of Dreams). Now Sheik can strike all of the small starting stages, and game 1 is usually played on a stage no smaller than Battle Field.

 

[Deleted member]

Have you played any PM IC players? Just curious. I'm also not really talking as much about aerial needles, grounded needles by the ledge give IC's more problems, and cause nana to do really weird dumb stuff for some reason. I mean when I thought about the match-up before I played a bunch of sheiks I also though IC's won, but I find the match-up a lot easier in melee after playing it in PM a good amount.

i havent played many good ICs but i have enough melee exp vs chu to know that you never have to use anything but movement to negotiate needles in neutral. needles off stage will just ****ing kill you but thats basically any character. most of the PM sheiks are pretty bad tbh (and the ICs are too) so its basically impossible to get a good high level sample of how the MU should play out. but for real the tl;dr is that its the melee MU where sheik already won, but ICs are more resilient to sheik in the ways that matter in PM (nana gimps mostly, but having a vertical kill option helps a lot too the tradeoff is that sheik can snap ban GHZ and FD but its still a net loss.

 

[Narpas_sword]

You can be the guy to actually use her crawl well

I spend so much time crawling and jab resetting with boost ball =(

but, i'm not high profile.

e/ not so much jab resetting, but punishing missed techs i guess.

and getting under projectiles =D

 

[Beorn]

I've said Rob and Roy are ******** forever

Everyone always agrees with me on the roy part though, and for a long time the rob people were like "Uhh robs perfectly fine and you just suck because you lose to df/oracle" while ignoring the characters obvious bad design/busted ****

In general I kind of hate when I get flack for saying "nerf etc character" after I lose to them, because people ALSO forget that I constantly ask to nerf both of my own characters, and nerf characters that I consistently beat (Such as Hamyojos Yoshi). Its really stupid how some people are like "Well if hes a good player and hes winning, his character is obviously not busted. Your character is only busted if you're bad and you're winning." Good players pick ******** characters, too. /rant

This is probably my favorite post in smashboards.

 

[Bazkip]

Wait @ Hylian , that's because of Blizzard being transcendent, no?
I thought that the transcendent property was removed from PM needles but you seem to have implied that's not the case.

 

[jtm94]

Pretty sure needles are not transcendent. I've seen in multiple locations saying how they aren't.
I can confirm Blizzard being transcendent still but needles not being so is why the needles ignore blizzard. So the Sheik nerf to needles makes them better against ICs and removes one of her bad MUs. Haha, I like this.

 

[941]

Pretty sure needles are not transcendent. I've seen in multiple locations saying how they aren't.
I can confirm Blizzard being transcendent still but needles not being so is why the needles ignore blizzard. So the Sheik nerf to needles makes them better against ICs and removes one of her bad MUs. Haha, I like this.

I can see this making the MU better for Sheik, but not as much as other factors that I've stated before. I also find it unfortunate that ICs don't win this MU as much, given that almost all of their winning MUs are against fatties and other low-tiers.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm curious as to what Lunchables/Umbreons/whosever original proposed changelist for ROB was, and whether or not it compares to the potential change list fox/sheik/roy/wolf/other top characters should face to bring them all down to an arbitrarily defined "reasonable" position as opposed to just dragging them all/some/just ROB down to hell so we can repeat this stupid cycle of overnerfing/overbuffing->new top tiers->overnerf/overbuff->new top tiers

Is there a point at which it's decided that all characters are bad enough? If we're there already, do you Lunchables/Umbreon have proposed bufftweaks that help improve ROB's design just as much as you want to nerftweak him to improve his design? If not then we end up in the same cycle of not knowing how to fix characters and only knowing how to make them worse. If your problem is the way he violates aerial positioning, that's a lot of changes, mostly nerftweaks, that you have to make to even change that. You could take away two boosts and he'd still get be making life awkward for characters that aim to outreach you to carry you across the stage like marth instead of true comboing like falcon. You could make boost take 10 frames to start-up instead of 5, but then jump+boost still gets him out of situations where you cover his fall then come back up to cover a jump. And assuming you found a fix for that, whatever the perceived problem is (when the truth is every character handles escaping juggles/bad situations differently, and ROB's not the only character that does it well, see M2/Yoshi for two particularly egregious violaters), does he get compensation in another area or do we keep nerftweaking every character like that until we have nobody that operates noticeably different? It sounds like I'm making a slippery slope, but the statements I've heard from Lunch about ROB being hard to juggle haven't really taken into account that's he's not even the only heavy floaty that applies to, yet he already wants ROB to lose that aspect in favor of operating like other heavy floaties that do get juggled easily.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Smash 4 is the pinnacle of balance. We should rebalance pm to mirror the tr4sh tier list. Double the blast zones on every stage and remove l hacking and wave cheating. Make shield camping effective!!

 

[Ningildo]

I play swordies.
As such, Olimar appears even worse to me then other people.
Poor ******* can't even get in, much less recover.

Please elaborate. Does Ike's normals beat out a lot of Oli's kit? Does he care about pikmin toss at all? Does he get combo'd badly when Oli gets something going? Etc.

I know it's a bad mu due Ike being a swordie, but I'd like to know what exactly makes it a bad mu, so I know what to look out for and what to punish and so on.

 

[Boiko]

no one thinks ness sucks except nza and we all ignore him

My work here is done.

 

[DMG]

ROB thangs

For what it's worth, ROB's juggle escaping potential shouldn't bother people too much unless it's implied or discovered that he doesn't have enough flaws in other areas. How to quantify ROB onstage is weird, but doesn't seem to show that people cannot play Smash with him. I'm way less concerned about that, compared to figuring out exactly how characters are supposed to reliably recover/DI/escape from ROB.

With Laser, Gyro, and boosts, the underlying theme seems to be that it's not likely for the defending player's actions to matter that much if ROB executes well, after you get noticeably hit or thrown. That bothers me a lot more than whatever "can't combo ROB" issue people have. If we're not gonna address that, or talk about that, and instead make him Zard/Ganon/whatever combination weight and floatiness, might as well switch to balancing another character cause we're doing it wrong at that point.

 

[steelguttey]

Ok.

Let's talk Oli/(insert main here). I'm legitimately curious about various mu's that I haven't played, such as Diddy, IC's, Ike and more.

I would post a list of mu's I did play, but phone johns.

if you main oli and dont play shiek your kinda stabbin yourself in the foot at this point lmao

you dont even know how to play shiek, shes ****ing easy, at least in the matchups we care about

My only experience in the Oli/Diddy MU is getting bopped by SS's once in 3.0. I think Diddy wins pretty solidly though, expecially now with how hard he can **** on tether recoveries with z drop ledge grabs. Diddy has to play campy, he doesn't need to approach, and if he does try to force an opening he gets pivot grabbed and bodied. Popgun doesn't do much to olimar because he's small and has his own projectiles. Diddy can just dash dance with a banana in hand and probably punish side-bs/sh fairs on reaction. Haven't looked at the frame data for this yet though.

i can talk for days about this matchup. the mostimportant thing in this matchup is that olimar doesnt have a great glide toss or agt, but boy does have ridiculous conversions off of nanners. his agt is big enough that its similar to purple side b waveland without using a purple, crazy things like white side b waveland nanner throw just kills and leads to so much free ****. we still lose the matchup because of the reasons you mentioned but its pretty close to even.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You would know better. I just feel so powerful when I can actually cover near every option. My character is too damn slow and awkward to get those little *******s most of the time.

Definitely better edgeguards than Samus. I think Bowser can get guaranteed kills in most or all situations where the spacy opponent is below or level with the stage, and in many or most situations where they're above. It's just that Bowser himself is also really easy to keep offstage in those matchups (though pretty much everyone does it wrong). Is Samus able to come back against spacies? I have no idea.

@ Hylian can we please look at IC's side b? It really shouldn't be able to recover from as low as it does.

 

[Ripple]

you really shouldn't have a problem with super side-b as a recovery move since they both need to be near the blast zone without a jump and synced. which will hardly ever occur.

you still shouldn't even have a problem with it then since if you see popo jump off stage to save nana you can easily tell it'll be coming and intercept it. and if they don't use side-b, the up-b won't allow popo to act for like 30 frames before he then either snaps the ledge or launches up in the air

 

[jtm94]

Can we talk about how much of a pain it is to deal with ICs SideB on stage? It reminds me of Luigi DownB in a way... I don't know anything about it except that I faced it a while ago and was a move that made me dislike ICs.

ROB's ability to edgeguard is overwhelming. My training partner picked him up a while ago and the character is a pain to deal with if you don't have a KO throw or overly strong KO move, like Zelda kick. As Sheik I take the downthrow, DI out, get hit by the uair yeah I knew that would hit, still have to DI out because if I go in I get hit again and die, but I'm safe and have double jump, but wait... what's... I got hit by laser. I can't even recover with GnW against the character. If I make it past laser, I'm eating the dreidel and dying anyways. Dreidel at ledge can put on tons of pressure because you have to wait it out or agt through it. On an unrelated note I just don't like that I can't CC side B. Why does everyone have a useful sideb...

 

[un.dead]

never mind

 

[Deleted member]

I'm curious as to what Lunchables/Umbreons/whosever original proposed changelist for ROB was

lunchables has his own at this point. i merely want rob placed next to ike on this chart: http://imgur.com/zoNZgW0. rob is basically a heavy floaty that doesnt lose to projectiles or juggling atm. i think reducing the floaty part is all he needs. you could make a case for normalizing gyro like the rest of the thrown projectiles, but tbh i dont think that was necessary for links bombs either so i have no opinion on it.

Can we talk about how much of a pain it is to deal with ICs SideB on stage

you have to crouch and hit them with a fast move before the last hit knocks you over but yeah its super annoying. still not sure why everyone underrates the ICs so bad because they're not bad at all.

 

[Juushichi]

@ Hylian , both I and drephen have both played against Fumbles and lost.

I have always done better historically playing other characters vs Fumbles (Mario, GnW and most recently a 3-1 W with Diddy Kong). I agree with @Umbreon about the matchup. It feels like both neutral and the punish game is in ICs favor. But, idk I think I am not good so this can be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Chevy]

Definitely better edgeguards than Samus. I think Bowser can get guaranteed kills in most or all situations where the spacy opponent is below or level with the stage, and in many or most situations where they're above. It's just that Bowser himself is also really easy to keep offstage in those matchups (though pretty much everyone does it wrong). Is Samus able to come back against spacies? I have no idea.

I pretty much get guaranteed edgeguards when they have to come from below(but who doesn't?)

Recovering against them entirely depends on whether or not I can threaten screw attack. If I have my jump and can either screw attack or tether, Fox gets a 50/50 on shinespike, or he can just shine me out of screw attack if he spaces it well. If I'm ever forced to tether, I should be dead every single time from shine. Wolf and Falco actually have to try a little bit, but can punish bomb jumps too close to the stage with b-air(Wolf can go really deep for this). I rarely get edgeguarded by non Fox spacies, though. There's a lot of risk for them going down after me, a screw attack off stage or while they're hanging on ledge is usually an easy ledgegrab into aerial for Samus to close the stock.

The problem is Samus has no air speed and she jumps slow so I can't reasonably cover their high recovery without a hard read.

 

[Juushichi]

idk i think you can cover high recovery just like samus players do in melee + you have things like breverse charge shot which can lightly OS certain spots of recovery.

I think samus is probably more equipped than other characters to deal with high recoveries.

also MI has a pretty solid samus that I played who abuses the **** out of morphball, holy **** is that thing obnoxious.

 

[Hylian]

@ Hylian can we please look at IC's side b? It really shouldn't be able to recover from as low as it does.

What Ripple said. Not to mention if you jump into side-b they can't rise while hitting you with it, if you hit them out of it one of the climbers goes into special-fall and just 100% dies, and you need to be sycned, which almost always requires you to waste your double jump and use an aerial. Their recovery goes far but it's one of the riskiest(for them) and easiest to deal with in the game.

Can we talk about how much of a pain it is to deal with ICs SideB on stage? It reminds me of Luigi DownB in a way... I don't know anything about it except that I faced it a while ago and was a move that made me dislike ICs.

Ic's side-b isn't very good offensively, not nearly as good as luigis down-b. It's slow, can just be CC'd into any hit or shield, or can just be shielded and then punished by WD or jump OoS as soon as they stop touching it. If they land on your shield with squall every character in the game can punish OoS.

you have to crouch and hit them with a fast move before the last hit knocks you over but yeah its super annoying. still not sure why everyone underrates the ICs so bad because they're not bad at all.

It's not hard to understand why people underrate them..they have had the worst tournament results of any character in the game EVERY patch they've been in. They've always been at the bottom. Every other character people have said is bad(Olimar,jiggs,pika etc) have always had better results than IC's. It also has to do with match-ups...yeah IC's are good but they have some horrible match-ups, and against popular characters to boot which prevents them from performing well in tournament without a secondary. On top of that they are such a hard character that it's really hard to get good with them if you are spending time building a secondary. They are a niche character, and can be great for counterpicking but don't look too appealing to main when you have to deal with pretty much unwinnable match-ups like Peach/ToonLink/Ivysaur every tournament, and then a bunch of other not unwinnable but still really hard match-ups like Fox/Falcon/Ganon on top of that.

@ Hylian , both I and drephen have both played against Fumbles and lost.

I have always done better historically playing other characters vs Fumbles (Mario, GnW and most recently a 3-1 W with Diddy Kong). I agree with @Umbreon about the matchup. It feels like both neutral and the punish game is in ICs favor. But, idk I think I am not good so this can be taken with a grain of salt.

Yes, and in my posts I state that if you are playing sheik normally against IC's I think they win. Of course you do better with other characters because those other characters all beat IC's.

 

[Chevy]

idk i think you can cover high recovery just like samus players do in melee + you have things like breverse charge shot which can lightly OS certain spots of recovery.

I think samus is probably more equipped than other characters to deal with high recoveries.

also MI has a pretty solid samus that I played who abuses the **** out of morphball, holy **** is that thing obnoxious.

With ample time to set-up(assuming BF platforms) I can cancel a missile on mid platform to cover edge cancel side-b, and then drop and cancel a second missile, stand at ledge and threaten most other options. This still loses if they're close enough to go to top platform, and if they up-B a little above stage level and not in path of the second missile, I have to read them going up to a platform or straight to ledge. So I can cover a lot of options if I have time for a couple missiles, but I don't have the speed to cover up-b directions on reaction from certain ranges. So maybe it's better than most characters, Idunno. Point was that I wish I had Bowser's ledge jump and n-air lol.

 

[trash?]

few people play ICs even when they're the best in the game, since they require so much dedication that you can't really main anyone else along with them, why would anyone play them here when the consensus is that they're bottom 5 at best?

if tournament results is how we base them here, then beyond cali and AZ everyone should think ICs are horrible in melee

 

[Hylian]

Except..even though few people played them in brawl they still had some of the best tournament results.Yes, you shouldn't base things 100% off results, but ignoring them completely is also foolish. IC's have also had great results in melee, they never have in a PM tournament.

 

[Soft Serve]

few people play ICs even when they're the best in the game, since they require so much dedication that you can't really main anyone else along with them, why would anyone play them here when the consensus is that they're bottom 5 at best?

if tournament results is how we base them here, then beyond cali and AZ everyone should think ICs are horrible in melee

They are horrible in melee. One winning MU in the top 8? Most other MUs are terrible. Loses to ganon/samus as well? They are really bad lol.

east coast has more IC's do well tho, nintendude/dizzkidboogie/chu.

Pm ics are weirdd and I can't evaluate them until I can play the local IC players when thr turn momentum glitch gets fixed

 

[Ripple]

IC's have also had great results in melee, they never have in a PM tournament.

better get back to the lab Hylain