Tier List Speculation

[robosteven]

Bowser will remain garbage-tier until he gets a 360-command-grab.

 

[Frost | Odds]

As a side note: My PM has taken Frozen to game 5 in a Bo5, beaten Boss, Plank, Jewchainz, and SearingArrow. When will I be crowned king of the koopas?

When your Bowser beats anyone good.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm inclined to think he's a bit better overall than I did before the tournament, though his MU spread may be even more polarized than I previously thought. ICs seem truly unbeatable (sorry @ Hylian I should've believed you 6 months ago), Wario is deeply awful, and the spacies seem to have a much bigger edge than I thought. I think I'd put Bowser around 6th-10th worst now, rather than bottom 5.


A couple reasons.

1. I'd like to be PMDT and help effect positive balance changes for the game. I've got a ton of top-level competitive gaming experience in several genres, including balance testing, and am pretty confident that my experience would be valuable to the project. If I'm visible as a public, helpful, knowledgable figure, worst case a bunch of people get better at playing as, and against Bowser, and best case it helps me accomplish my goals. Everyone wins in either case.

2. Trash talk is fun.

3. Darkblues is that completely fraudulent punk Bowser. For real, guys, why does anybody think he's good? :D


EDIT: and yeah I've crushed every event I've attended in Alberta and Saskatchewan for months now.

EDITEDIT: forreal @ DrinkingFood do you still want to team at LTC3 or am I going to have to struggle to find a doubleswaifu

Hey, if you want to dish the trash talk, then that's cool. Just be ready to take it.

I pretty much only get aggressive with people who brag about their play--otherwise, i'm a friendly non-trashtalking guy. Probably because I can't take it *shrugs*.

Keep doing you, my brother. Just have fun when the **** slinging....slings.

 

[trash?]

Here's the thing--why are you calling yourself the best Bowser? Did you win a national? Have you consistently been top at every weekly of your region and are you THAT guy to watch out for? Are you even a top 16 player yet alone a top 45 player or however many characters are in this game?

If you are the best, other people will talk about you FOR you, and if they aren't doing that then who really gives a **** how good you are in the first place? When you start winning, they will notice. It's as simple as that.

With that said, if some punk bowser comes out and says "I'm the BEST guys! Seriously!" then you go ahead and tell them they're a nobody and you've got a far better argument for the #1. But this whole building a mural out of your own blood and begging people to pray to it is so ****ing played out.

dude just because you haven't bothered interacting with the rest of project m for several months doesn't mean everyone else was also living under a rock

 

[Deleted member]

As a side note: My PM has taken Frozen to game 5 in a Bo5, beaten Boss, Plank, Jewchainz, and SearingArrow. When will I be crowned king of the koopas?

You went diddy g5 vs froz and still lost

stop lying you wanna be bowser main

 

[The_NZA]

Pidgeot's here, must be Seagull!

@ The_NZA , what say you to also making it so fulljump PK Fire doesn't cause Ness to go into cooldown?

Because it's hella predictable as it is anyway, and the 3.5 nerfs make landing PK Fire in the first place not that big of a reward.

I don't really think Ness needs pkfire to be more useful when he can be designed to benefit more from being aggressive. Pkfire is also pretty strong if you are willing to learn how to frame perfect ex fire aka the lagless grounded pk fire.

 

[Deleted member]

i dont actually think highly of myself, i just like saying stupid **** and popping off because i dont take myself seriously at all

i love when NZA leaves unforgettable gems about how marth gets better on bigger stages, or how falco laser/dair nerfs are irrelevant, or how snakes grenades are a good option in neutral LOL

you crack me up IRL, i sent your post to all my friends and they cracked up too

real talk though odds is pretty clearly the best bowser, like to save you from future embarrassment, hes godly, look it up

 

[The_NZA]

dude just because you haven't bothered interacting with the rest of project m for several months doesn't mean everyone else was also living under a rock

My point wasn't to take away from Odds' accomplishments or to badmouth him.

My point was to say if he's doing really awesome things, his homies and other good players will come out of the woodwork and talk about how good he is for him, like they are right now. He shouldn't have to rep himself to prove he's impressive.

On the other hand, if he's fiending for the trash talk then i'm not stopping him. This isn't the moral imperative I think the world should run on...its just my preferred way for myself. Philosophically, I don't see the point of declaring yourself number 1 until other start suggesting the idea before you. And if they are suggesting it, then you don't have to.

 

[Frost | Odds]

On the other hand, if he's fiending for the trash talk then i'm not stopping him. This isn't the moral imperative I think the world should run on

I'm not really fiending for anything. I just have a moral imperative to keep Darkblues's ego in check.

SO HOW ABOUT THAT TIER LIST GUYS

 

[Deleted member]

best tier list

1.
2.
3.

 

[MLGF]

I consider myself a pretty strong ike player, and I dont really think that poor DI off a throw as fast as fthrow should be a stock. If it was a strong meteor, ike would still be forcing the opponent into an edgeguard situation where I'd kill them anyway. I mean, Ike has such strong edgeguards to begin with.
I can see what you mean though, I personally think ike is kind of perfect the way he is.

Fair, honestly I think the fact that F-Throw and B-Throw being so fast and being DI mixups on some characters is also an issue however. Perhaps adding a frame or two to those two throws would justify his throws setting up to those things better.

I know I said Ike was perfect before, but I'm going back on myself because I'm never even sure what I want

I love how Ike players all want some single nerf, but no one ever wants the same one. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[Foo]

As much fun as this has been, I think this is getting a little out of hand. Let me inform all of you guys on a cool way to fix this. It gets a little complex, but please bear with me.
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First, we are going to need to locate a button with a strange up-side down triangle on top of a square, as seen here.

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Second, mouse over it like so.

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Third, click "Start a new Conversation"

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Fourth, enter the targets you wish to trash talk, call out, or otherwise "put in their place."

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Fifth, type in a suiting title and message to articulately and meaningfully debase your target(s) in the message section below.

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Sixth, locate the "start a conversation" button. Hover over it cautiously, but ultimately don't press it. Instead, find this button in the bottom left corner of your screen. Click it.

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Finally, hover over the arrow next to "shut down" and then find the sleep option. Take your computer's advice and GO THE **** TO SLEEP

___________________________________________________________________________________

 

[FreeGamer]

uh...
um...
wow....
uh...
damn...

So... How's Kirby?
...Remind me not to get on your bad side...

Cute and cuddly. :3

 

[Bazkip]

@ Foo I hope you didn't take your advice and actually sent that message.

 

[SnT Trash]

Cute and cuddly. :3

The true Kirby main.. all the pink cotton candy balls you can get are right here! ^^
What do you guys think of buffing Kirby in PM?

 

[FreeGamer]

The true Kirby main.. all the pink cotton candy balls you can get are right here! ^^
What do you guys think of buffing Kirby in PM?

He could use a few small ones, but anything more would be silly.

 

[Deleted member]

As much fun as this has been, I think this is getting a little out of hand. Let me inform all of you guys on a cool way to fix this. It gets a little complex, but please bear with me.

 

[bec]

As much fun as this has been, I think this is getting a little out of hand. Let me inform all of you guys on a cool way to fix this. It gets a little complex, but please bear with me.

im just really proud of literally all the effort you put into making that post

 

[Deleted member]

LMAOOOOO ****ING GOOOOTTEEEEEEEEEEM

In actuality though uhh yeah this thread went down a poop hole.

Strong Bad and I have best tier lists end of discussion we win +99999999999999999 points to us

 

[MLGF]

I mean, I never even imagined that this thread could get any worse.
But then today happened. So today I learned to never set any expectations, because someone will **** them up.

 

[SnT Trash]

He could use a few small ones, but anything more would be silly.

Yeah, but which specifically? I feel like he gets very little mileage off of his throws.. his uthrow you can just react and DI away.. he might be able to get in one hit, but other than that it's nothing strong. His fthrow isn't too good either because they can hit you before you hit them/hit you at the same time while you try to go for a follow up.. his bthrow you can't get anything off of other than throwing them offstage (Kirby is good at edgeguarding). and dthrow you can tech easily and the techchase isn't too strong imo.. his utilt is good and you can get multiple (usmash once they start DIing well I suppose).. bair is good, dtilt is good, fair is alright and I think a lot of moves beat it out.. uair is alright for a kill option, but it's slow as hell. I would say nair/bair is good oos mainly.. but I feel like Kirby can use a very minor buff to get something off of his grabs. Then again, I haven't played Kirby a whole lot, but that's what I understand what Kirby is when it comes to moves. Side b is strong obviously, but it's pretty laggy.. up b is fine in terms of recovery.. not so sure about offensive use (I never tested it out). I've seen it used as a gimping tool since it's a semi spike iirc. swallow isn't as good as it was in 3.02 (forgot the changes, but it's not as strong now) and I feel like down b is fine when trying to get back to stage. This is what I think about Kirby.. I'm not sure what they can do to make him a bit better and again, I'm not 100% sure if it is necessary.

 

[Idostuff]

Since our almost agreement on a singles tier list has left us so bored that we have devolved into madness waiting until 3.6 comes out (pls based PMDT). Here i go w. doubles tier list round 2. Disclaimer: i have very little experience w. doubles, and i know i could be wrong about everything, but we clearly need something new to talk about here. Tiers are not ordered.

S:
A:
B:
C:

 

[mimgrim]

Bowser is SSSSSSS tier doubles character.

 

[Phan7om]

This has got to be the most ridiculous, craziest, and most random page of this thread.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser is SSSSSSS tier doubles character.

I don't know about that, but I think he's far better in doubles than in singles, provided he has a good teammate.

 

[MLGF]

MK in doubles is sick, he can play almost every single role extremely well. I feel as if he may be S tier in doubles based on how versatile he is.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't know about that, but I think he's far better in doubles than in singles, provided he has a good teammate.

I just spam Fsmash and kill everyone. And I mean everyone.

No discrimination.

**** works. xD

 

[Idostuff]

I don't know about that, but I think he's far better in doubles than in singles, provided he has a good teammate.

Why do you say that? Just curious.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser's neutral game blows, but his punish game is off the chain.

And neutral game doesn't matter nearly as much in doubles.

There's a lot more detailed reasons, but that's the extreme tl;dr version

 

[Strong Badam]

I leave the thread for 36 hours and this happens... I don't plan to go through the entire past ~3 pages and issue infractions (but that doesn't stop the other mods from doing so, nor is it a promise that I won't), but I will say I'll be monitoring this thread a bit more closely. Less spammy off-topic/flamey stuff please.

 

[POOB]

I remember back in the day when Ness-DK was thought to be unwinnable for DK. Good times

 

[Deleted member]

3.5 Doubles Tier list v1

Tier 1 - You can put these characters on most teams and your team will get better. Great mobility and/or proper grasp of the neutral game in doubles

Tier 2 - Also very solid doubles characters, either have small flaws such as not being fox or are unintuitive in a doubles environment

Tier 3 - These characters do have some fairly relevant problems, but can still be on a good team

Tier 4 - Obvious problems start to occur such as being unable to handle a cluster f*ck, or not being able to reliably kill

Tier 5 - Sad, sad day.


This list isn't perfect, and will likely receive updates, but this quick sketch I made along with asking @ Strong Badam and @Umbreon their opinions on Skype.

Some additional information on characters:
: Although he's an amazing doubles character, hes not very "splashable". Your understanding of general items, more specifically bananas, has to be very accurate or else you won't understand his options whatsoever.

^^(The ability to be a "splashable" character is also very relevant with other characters as to whether or not they're high/low. Having to develop synergy is one thing, but general character information is also what makes or breaks some characters in doubles)^^

:He's a solid Tier 3, unless he teams with Ivysaur. Then he can neutral B for solar beams and oh god please help us all (aka becomes a Tier 1)
: Mixed opinions on Lucario. He's probably one of the best 2v1 characters in the game, but he still has a poor combo weight for doubles and no immediate support/kill options.

You may also be wondering what about link/samus/other projectile users, but what really matters in doubles is your mobility and support. It doesn't matter if you have a ton of projectiles when you're slow af and can't reliably do anything else while Tier 1/2 characters are rushing you down. You also need immediate kill options, and your neutral game/combos need to be done without requiring the entire stage or more than like 10 seconds.

Now Discuss

 

[Deleted member]

why is samus so low?

 

[Deleted member]

why is samus so low?

I wasn't sure whether to put her in Tier 2 or Tier 3, but her poor mobility is very obvious. She's excellent support, but I'm sadly not familiar enough with the character due to the only relevant samus (ESAM) dropping smash aka not developing her meta

probably should move her up to tier 2 idk

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why is Ivy so high? Not disagreeing, I'm just still pretty bad with her.

 

[DrinkingFood]

bruh double samus is the best team
you can like
double missile camp
they'll never be able to approach

@ Frost | Odds give me a link to LTC3 info so I don't have to look for it
I need to make sure I'll have adequate time to anxiously mull over putting in for that day off work because I know I probably won't get it and instead will have to just call in sick or something so I can go

 

[Deleted member]

Why is Ivy so high? Not disagreeing, I'm just still pretty bad with her.

Ivysaur plays an incredible support role. All of her problems of being slow or being out mobility'd in neutral are solved, and as a result her positives over flow. Incredible gimp game, huge disjoints, ability to disrupt/support whenever, and her control of the stage and punish options are never too committal. She usually goes well with another very fast character like Fox, because they can constantly maintain stage control and get it back if they lose it.

To quote Umbreon, "Ivy is so ridiculously gay in doubles"

Edit: I didn't realize I had Samus in Tier 4, I thought I put her in Tier 3. I'm a ****ing idiot, ignore me.

 

[Hylian]

I think lucario is EASILY top tier in doubles if not the best character. That character is sooooo insane in doubles.

I only have to randomly look 40 seconds into one of my last tournaments double matches to see me comboing two characters to the top of the screen at once lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmcE_mAUxQ&t=41s

He just has so much to hit that he rarely ever has to commit to things, and can get easier kills with all the team set-ups and ease of approach in teams.

Edit: Look how he can just disengage from a combo to sandwich his opponent with his teammate, and even immediately move the combo towards there to set up for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmcE_mAUxQ&t=1m32s

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah that was one of the few characters I legit had no idea about, I heard 2 pretty different sides from SB and Umbreon.

I'll probably move him up as well

 

[Agi]

ZSS is the huge kicker in there for me, I'd have expected her a fair bit lower. More opportunities to land DSmash/extend team combos with DAir or what?

EDIT: Also Puff being Tier 3, wha? Isn't she gdlk entirely due to being able to lovetap a teammate out of rest?