Tier List Speculation

[4tlas]

I think it may be easier to try and list Doubles characters by their relative strength to their Singles selves. Finding the traits that make a doubles character good is way easier than going through all the possible combinations.

Quick characters are flexible, and slow characters don't have to worry about faster footsies because opponents get zoned into them by the presence of 2 extra players. Huge hurtboxes are more likely to get accidentally hit by the teammate or extra opponent. Huge hitboxes are more likely to accidentally hit your teammate. Combo-centric characters can be interrupted. Characters with limited recovery options or recoveries that take forever (eg. Samus, Luigi) are either easily edgeguarded or leave their teammate vulnerable to a 2v1, respectively. Characters that are hard to kill due to weight or a good recovery can tank stocks. Characters with precise hitboxes, especially projectiles, can support a teammate very well. Characters with weak upairs/nairs can try to save teammates who can't reach the stage, and characters with weak projectiles can do so while zoning opponents from the ledge and without risking their own stock.

Some characters have multiple of these traits. Then of course you have some very specific strengths such as Rest, Bucket, PSI Magnet, Copy, Sing/Tranquilizer, and Transform. So obviously this gets very complicated quickly. Would it be a good idea to start with whether an individual character is improved, hampered, or unaffected by a doubles environment?

 

[robosteven]

Can confirm, Olimar is a doubles tank even in 3.5.

 

[4tlas]

Can confirm, Olimar is a doubles tank even in 3.5.

I suppose being just plain hard to hit is a valid way to tank stocks. Small hurtbox, strong neutral game, run away forever, etc.

 

[steelguttey]

yea olimar in doubles is still good because you just play brawl

 

[Vashimus]

If you play a conservative, campy stock tank style, your opponents will end up ignoring you and butt****ing your teammate instead. They'll then just stop you from coming to help them and the team falls apart quicker. Even if you're playing a good defensive characters, they still need to be relatively aggressive and play around what the teammate is doing. And there are hardly good many Olimar players do the first one right.

 

[Boiko]

Jiggs is still really good in doubles like she is in melee. Safe rests are way too strong to be ignored. It can entirely change the flow of a game and depending on your partner, it's not always hard to hit. Plus she can stock tank.

 

[Foo]

yea olimar in doubles is still good because you just play brawl

I feel like olimar can't be too good in doubles because of his recovery. (or lack thereof)

 

[steelguttey]

i mean at top levels of doubles recovery is never an issue

 

[Vashimus]

Tell that to Marth.

 

[GabPR]

Sonic can get from one side of a stage to the other faster that any other character, making every seperate 1v1 into a 1v2 at any time in the game.

 

[Life]

Sonic can get from one side of a stage to the other faster that any other character, making every seperate 1v1 into a 1v2 at any time in the game.

But how long for Sonic's opponent to catch up?

If Sonic is fighting someone like Fox or Falcon who also runs fast, he's only going to have like a second of 2v1 advantage; consider that it requires situational awareness of your partner's situation on top of everything it already takes to face an opponent 1v1, and it seems like a pretty balanced trait to have.

I agree that Sonic seems better in doubles than singles, but for more reasons than just that (his combos can rack up damage super quickly and may be hard to interrupt since they involve a lot of traveling; spring is one of the safest edgeguarding tools in a doubles situation, and may also save certain floatier partners e.g. Jigglypuff)

 

[GabPR]

But how long for Sonic's opponent to catch up?

If Sonic is fighting someone like Fox or Falcon who also runs fast, he's only going to have like a second of 2v1 advantage; consider that it requires situational awareness of your partner's situation on top of everything it already takes to face an opponent 1v1, and it seems like a pretty balanced trait to have.

I agree that Sonic seems better in doubles than singles, but for more reasons than just that (his combos can rack up damage super quickly and may be hard to interrupt since they involve a lot of traveling; spring is one of the safest edgeguarding tools in a doubles situation, and may also save certain floatier partners e.g. Jigglypuff)

I made it short since Im on cellphone and dont want to do walls of text atm, but a Second is all you need to land a hit or grab (fthrow is really quick) to get back to the 1v1. And Sonic is also great for Singles.

 

[Soft Serve]

But how long for Sonic's opponent to catch up?

If Sonic is fighting someone like Fox or Falcon who also runs fast, he's only going to have like a second of 2v1 advantage; consider that it requires situational awareness of your partner's situation on top of everything it already takes to face an opponent 1v1, and it seems like a pretty balanced trait to have.

I agree that Sonic seems better in doubles than singles, but for more reasons than just that (his combos can rack up damage super quickly and may be hard to interrupt since they involve a lot of traveling; spring is one of the safest edgeguarding tools in a doubles situation, and may also save certain floatier partners e.g. Jigglypuff)

often all you need to help a partner is to fly in with a weak nair and reset the situation/disrupt the opponents rhythm. You don't have to go in to make a huge combo, even just a flying nair can start quick team combos with a spacie bair, etc.

 

[PlateProp]

Sonic can get from one side of a stage to the other faster that any other character, making every seperate 1v1 into a 1v2 at any time in the game.

Only by half a second. Both Squirtle and Falcon can cross FD in a second and a half, and approach way better than Sonic. Falcon cuz falcon, Squirtle cuz invincible tail bair at mach 2 from super rar

 

[Deleted member]

Tell that to Marth.

i dont like marth in teams and i think he sucks at it, but in all fairness i basically make it back with his recovery every time. i dont like marth in teams because he cant hold position, has no fast non-situational kill move like say fox upsmash, cant place the tip well in a 4 player environment, offers basically no teams support, his combo weight being bad is extra brutal, and the list goes on and on. but his recovery is fine.

 

[trash?]

jigglypuff will never not be good in doubles

even in brawl, where the worst character in the game was basically a tie btwn her and ganondorf, she was pretty good in doubles. it's kind of inevitable, when you have the biggest drawback to your best move being negated by your partner just jabbing you afterwards

 

[ChiePet]

A lot of characters have solid anti-Peach tools. I'm not sure I'd put her that high and definitely not inside the top 10.

As I agree to that, She still even considering those tools has nothing but Even MUs across the board, Fox and C.Falc will always give her issues, but I'd still say it's 50:50, 55:45 in their favor in certain scenarios (ex; Never take Fox to Dreamland. He and Charizard gain instead of lose in that scenario.) She has more than enough tools ported from Melee and attributes from Brawl that gave her nothing but Buffs into Project M, I still think she's top 10, always will, Melee gives me that drive; she's starting to get well represented but for the majority of PM she's gone under-played and suffered for it. So although I understand/respect your standpoint, I just have to disagree.
-Shrug-


EDIT: Thought about it for a while, and imo this is what I value in PM as far as Tiers are considered; obviously still only imo.

S: Fox, Wolf, Falco, Roy, Sheik, Lucario

A: ROB, C.Falcon, Peach, Ike, Diddy, Samus, Yoshi,

B: Marth, Mario, ZSSamus, Mewtwo, TLink, Wario, Lucas, MetaKnight

 

[TreK]

edit : wrong thread, please delete

My B.

 

[Broccoli]

while teaming with someone who routinely goes 0-2 at Nebs.

Not sure if me.

 

[Cia]

Jigglypuff D Tier in doubles -_-

 

[jtm94]

Sonic GnW pretty good team can vouch.
You actually can't 2v1 Sonic, and that's why he's potent. Along with good recovery and a lot of moves that force the opponent in shield he can effectively keep someone in check while slowly racking up damage with the potential for low % gimps while the other teammate dies.

 

[ChiePet]

I'm assuming Peach and Sheik are still ridiculous as a Doubles Team.
I also like the idea of ROB and Zelda or ZSSamus.

 

[Boiko]

Not sure if me.

Lol, no. We didn't play Prof and dizz. But you can vouch that Ness(I) is(am) the goat of 2v1s.

As I agree to that, She still even considering those tools has nothing but Even MUs across the board, Fox and C.Falc will always give her issues, but I'd still say it's 50:50, 55:45 in their favor in certain scenarios (ex; Never take Fox to Dreamland. He and Charizard gain instead of lose in that scenario.) She has more than enough tools ported from Melee and attributes from Brawl that gave her nothing but Buffs into Project M, I still think she's top 10, always will, Melee gives me that drive; she's starting to get well represented but for the majority of PM she's gone under-played and suffered for it. So although I understand/respect your standpoint, I just have to disagree.
-Shrug-

I almost completely agree with you that people are underselling Peach. I'm just going to call it lack of character exposure. But I do think she has a few more bad match ups: Zelda, Tink, Lucas, Meta Knight, to name a few.

 

[Juushichi]

I know you guys have VaNz out there now, but idk seems Zelda is still pretty easy for her. MK can't trade and can't kill her (iirc it was hard for him even w/ dive kick), Lucas idk but I am skeptical and Tink is definitely his favor in the MU.

 

[Foo]

I personally think zss has an edge on peach, but no one on the ZSS boards seems to agree with me so idk.

 

[Life]

Sonic GnW pretty good team can vouch.
You actually can't 2v1 Sonic, and that's why he's potent. Along with good recovery and a lot of moves that force the opponent in shield he can effectively keep someone in check while slowly racking up damage with the potential for low % gimps while the other teammate dies.

Squirtle has similar properties; IMO Squirtle, Sonic, and Fox are arguably the best characters to be if you're on the wrong end of a 1v2 situation.

 

[Boiko]

I know you guys have VaNz out there now, but idk seems Zelda is still pretty easy for her. MK can't trade and can't kill her (iirc it was hard for him even w/ dive kick), Lucas idk but I am skeptical and Tink is definitely his favor in the MU.

We also have Malachi, who recently placed third at Nova behind Vanz and Zhime.
I really can't see Peach having an easy time with Zelda. She doesn't have the mobility needed to counter Zelda's play style. Plus, she doesn't really have the ability to outcamp Zelda like other less mobile characters, or kill her early for that matter. Maybe you could provide some other insight though. From what I've seen, it seems like it's pretty tough for Peach. Wasn't MK considered one of Peach's hardest match ups? In my mind, I see Lucas as kind of a floaty slayer. He's one of the only characters who can combo floaty characters hard into kill conversion, Peach is no exception. Of course, nothing is free, and it's contingent upon reading techs and following smash DI. With a charge, he's killing her at silly low percentages.

 

[steelguttey]

why did all of ny decide to talk in this thread out of nowhere

honestly pm peach is ridiculous

footstool, dacus and agt all make her soooooo much better

 

[Boiko]

why did all of ny decide to talk in this thread out of nowhere

honestly pm peach is ridiculous

footstool, dacus and agt all make her soooooo much better

If smashboards was blocked on my work computer, I would never post here. But it's not, so here we are.

On topic: Why do people think Squirtle is bad? I was playing him yesterday, and he feels like a faster but slightly less potent version of Sheik.

 

[steelguttey]

because people play amish squirtles

nobody with that much mobility can ever be bad

 

[iPunchKidsz]

so like whatever happened to this lmao

uh. lol

 

[Life]

The problem with Squirtle is that while he's incredibly mobile, his movement is somewhat telegraphed (there's like a solid 20+ frames before you can throw out a hydroplaned move for instance). Slingjump isn't that good in neutral because your opponent can see you flying at them from across the stage and just hit you. Wavedash is fantastic, but getting precision with it is difficult.

In terms of matchups, he mainly loses to people with large disjoints and/or strong persistent hitboxes--Marth, Roy, GnW, and Fox being examples. He also loses to characters that like to force trades, e.g. Peach, and his techroll is terrible so there's that too. He doesn't really have any radically good matchups to make up for it.

Squirtle has a TON of untapped potential thanks mainly to great gimping and edgeguarding. Someday, an Axe or aMSa figure is going to show up and surprise everyone. But that day is not today, and I'm not that hero.

 

[4tlas]

I think Peach vs. Zelda is pretty good for Peach. Float lets her space very well with low startup moves at a height where Zelda has to jump to hit anything laterally (which means getting naired before you can do anything or faired after a whiffed lightning kick), float cancels give Peach huge frame advantage out of this already good option, and her projectile lets her AGT all around Zelda.

Without the ability to preemptively place Dins at Zelda's current location and float height, I don't see how Zelda should really ever get a chance to space anything. But I'm definitely not as good as the Peach players I play, so take this for what you will.

 

[ChiePet]

We also have Malachi, who recently placed third at Nova behind Vanz and Zhime.
I really can't see Peach having an easy time with Zelda. She doesn't have the mobility needed to counter Zelda's play style. Plus, she doesn't really have the ability to outcamp Zelda like other less mobile characters, or kill her early for that matter. Maybe you could provide some other insight though. From what I've seen, it seems like it's pretty tough for Peach. Wasn't MK considered one of Peach's hardest match ups? In my mind, I see Lucas as kind of a floaty slayer. He's one of the only characters who can combo floaty characters hard into kill conversion, Peach is no exception. Of course, nothing is free, and it's contingent upon reading techs and following smash DI. With a charge, he's killing her at silly low percentages.

A direct quote from VaNz was "Zhime trashed me in the Zelda v Peach match up tho. just by spacing around my approaches and reflecting turnips. "

She has a lot of problems unexpectedly in PM vs. Zelda; Honestly, she's one of her worst 3 MUs (Fox and C.Falcon to an extent are the other 2)

from experience and from other perspectives, you get camped out of camping, Turnips get turned around on you, can't chase zelda when shes in hit stun in fear of BAir/FAir stinging you, normal float and neutral game has to be retweaked to hep with Din's, Nayru's, and even those Farore's where people Up B > Hold Down > B Cancel to use it as a combo tool. Her weight makes the most tools harder to use. still, 50:50 imo, maybe besides Fox the only potential 55:45 MU, but she's really, really rough to face.

That said, with Fox being so dominant lately, Peach has been out of the spot light too long. seriously. CG UThrow forever, Easy off stage edge guarding/gimping, dash attack is the ultimate anti-spacie tool, and so on.

It never made sense to me why she became such a quickly ignored character in PM when she gained nothing but buffs, she's beyond slept on.

EDIT: Lucas is even, maybe even in her favor; Silly Kyle said going against Neon in long sets he got 2/3rds of all sets won. Tink maybe, MK I can see but still even honestly.

 

[Boiko]

The problem with Squirtle is that while he's incredibly mobile, his movement is somewhat telegraphed (there's like a solid 20+ frames before you can throw out a hydroplaned move for instance). Slingjump isn't that good in neutral because your opponent can see you flying at them from across the stage and just hit you. Wavedash is fantastic, but getting precision with it is difficult.

In terms of matchups, he mainly loses to people with large disjoints and/or strong persistent hitboxes--Marth, Roy, GnW, and Fox being examples. He also loses to characters that like to force trades, e.g. Peach, and his techroll is terrible so there's that too. He doesn't really have any radically good matchups to make up for it.

Squirtle has a TON of untapped potential thanks mainly to great gimping and edgeguarding. Someday, an Axe or aMSa figure is going to show up and surprise everyone. But that day is not today, and I'm not that hero.

Yeah, but you don't necessarily need to use those telegraphed movement options. If you're using them to cover a tech, mix up an option, or reclaim stage control, that's good, but if you're just throwing it out in the neutral, it's the same as QD where any good player is going to see it coming, prep, and punish. I think it's more about his amazing WD combined with his overall quick attacks and combo potential. Plus, considering the length of his WD, it's much easier to tech chase opponents with slow tech rolls. I think you're right, he doesn't have too many great MUs, but I also don't think he has too many bad ones. His mobility, combos, and edge guarding are really solid overall.

 

[Life]

@ Boiko I think we're actually in agreement on some level? I guess you're a bit more optimistic than I am haha. I've been kind of weak at PM lately due to IRL stuff so that's probably why I'm so down on it all lately. My experiences =/= everyone's.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Forgot to also put lucario is my potential top 10 list I made earlier. I wish I'd gotten to play IPK at aftershock so i'd have a feel for that matchup (lucario vs ROB). I'd imagine it works very differently from most of the rest of ROB's matchups- shielding laser wouldn't be a good idea because lucario's PS is bad and he needs to conserve shield like ROB does, so ROB's projectiles could be really good in neutral in that matchup. But idk if I can actually CC lucario given how fast his moves chain together; since I can't input CC dsmash every other frame of being hit during his OHC chains, I'd have to react quick enough to get the dsmash to come out, but with lucario there's very little reaction time to what he's hitting you with.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Lol, no. We didn't play Prof and dizz. But you can vouch that Ness(I) is(am) the goat of 2v1s.



I almost completely agree with you that people are underselling Peach. I'm just going to call it lack of character exposure. But I do think she has a few more bad match ups: Zelda, Tink, Lucas, Meta Knight, to name a few.

Uhh peach isnt undersold whatsoever. She gets hit hard by the fact that characters in pm have generally better neutrals in terms of projectiles and zoning. Her counter play was a little underdeveloped in melee too, since people don't really realize how potent platform camping is against her.
On top of the matchups you listed, she also loses to pretty solidly to link sheik ike and slightly loses to ivy and marth.
She's still probably good enough that you wouldn't need a secondary, but I think she's about mid/upper mid.

 

[steelguttey]

i feel like brawl tech is enough to throw most of melee meta for peach out of the window and consider her matchups better. new utilt is STUPID fast anti air option. her agt is great too

 

[PootisKonga]

Quick dumb question that is probably obvious, but does Lucario's OHC mean he can negate his own attacks' hitlag with whatever is next in the magic series, or can he only cancel starting the frame after hitlag?

I only ask because I recall a gif where iPK comboed someone with ASC, some tilt, and Dsmash and repeated this multiple times. I was confused as to why the Dsmashes didn't send his target flying. Alternatively, does ASC come out fast enough to somehow cancel the KB of Dsmash?