Tier List Speculation

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Ganon is a god in teams

Not even joking

 

[Leafeon]

I know the post about the doubles tier list was a joke, but i think it would be a fun discussion to actually have since we seem to pretty much agree on what the singles tier list looks like atm. So here we go, a doubles tier list based on very little experience and meta development. Note that chars are grouped into tiers, but not ordered within tiers.

S:
A:
B:
C:

i am very aware that this might be totally wrong, more of excuse to start a discussion.

Metaknight is amazing in teams.
Roy isn't very good in teams.
Snake is SS+ paired with kirby, metaknight, or charizard. And yes, I do mean a tier above fox jiggs sheik and falcon.
Game and Watch paired with any character that he can bucket moves from is in the same tier as SS+ snake.

 

[Idostuff]

what makes MetaKnight amazing?

ya know, i though snake wouldn't be very good since idk when he would have time to set up his mines, and he wouldn't be able to get confirms off the tranq since the opponent could get saved, but i do see how Snake and his partner could set up sweet team combos using the mine. Also, can Snake sticky people being held in a grab?

 

[Scaremonger]

I know the post about the doubles tier list was a joke, but i think it would be a fun discussion to actually have since we seem to pretty much agree on what the singles tier list looks like atm. So here we go, a doubles tier list based on very little experience and meta development. Note that chars are grouped into tiers, but not ordered within tiers.

S:
A:
B:
C:

i am very aware that this might be totally wrong, more of excuse to start a discussion.

Immediately noticeable things: Ganon and Bowser should move way up. Definitely a-tier characters. I've heard some **** about Bowser's strength as a support character.

Marth should be lower and Falco should be higher. Falco can be super good in teams in the right combinations, but Marth is just... bad.

idk how peach is B-tier. She's still a good teams character.

You're overrating Falcon. He's fast and powerful, but he's also a really big target and just does not work well with certain characters.

 

[Leafeon]

what makes MetaKnight amazing?

ya know, i though snake wouldn't be very good since idk when he would have time to set up his mines, and he wouldn't be able to get confirms off the tranq since the opponent could get saved, but i do see how Snake and his partner could set up sweet team combos using the mine. Also, can Snake sticky people being held in a grab?

High mobility for interrupts, nice teams-oriented throws, great edgeguard capability, high survivability, and upair teamsaves.

 

[Idostuff]

Ganon is a god in teams

Not even joking

please explain, as a Ganon main I am very interested to hear why.

 

[Jolteon]

MK is actually godlike in teams, way better than he is in singles. He has good positional throws to set-up team combos, is great at setting up 1v2 situations, amazing at capitalizing on said 1v2 situations with nair/bair, is amazing at team combo'ing, has good kill power, good at racking up dmg, is good at 1v2, great at covering options+space, is great at saving people and he can go far off stage for edge guards. He's really versatile so he can either hang back and support a character with great approaches like Fox, or take point himself. He's just really amazing at like... everything you need in teams.

 

[CORY]

please explain, as a Ganon main I am very interested to hear why.

I wouldn't say he's godlike, personally, but he puts on damage quickly in just a few hits, has really great moves for 2v1 edgeguard situations, and can outright kill easily if your partner can help set up the situation.

Downsides being that he's TERRIBLE in the 1v2, is easy to edgeguard, making him a sub par stock tank, and it's easy to have a stray hit outright kill your partner.

 

[Deleted member]

i think this is my tier list for 3.5

---

S


A




B



C




D




E




F


in terms of balance i pretty much only have issues with fox roy rob at the top and pit link olimar at the bottom

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Umbreon

Reading that list from top to bottom was like sipping a fine wine, and then slowly discovering that it was in fact 100% LSD

 

[eideeiit]

I'll be honest, this looks like the ****tiest tier list by a Texan here ATM.

I mean it's not ALL bad, but the salt is so real and there're too many WTFs for me to take it seriously

 

[Deleted member]

hey im just one opinion like the rest of you

id love to discuss it amicably thought

edit: i'm from pennsylvania, ive only been in texas for two months

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

i think this is my tier list for 3.5

---

S


A




B



C




D




E




F


in terms of balance i pretty much only have issues with fox roy rob at the top and pit link olimar at the bottom

I was honestly with you until D tier. Mewtwo? Lucas? Peach? Snake?

And then I saw E tier and was like "..."

Ivy, Chu, Jiggs and Zard aren't that bad. Nor is Kirby. Honestly C and down the tiers pretty much blur together and it;s ****ing impossible to tell because the balance is pretty close there. Oli and ICs need bugfixes, Link needs some actual conversion options back and Pit is *actually fine* but if y'all want to buff him slightly go right ahead. If 3.6 polishes this all up we'll all have the game balance we want.

 

[Deleted member]

i dont think those characters are bad either, more like the top 25% of the cast is disproportionately good. but we all knew that already.

 

[Boiko]

MK is actually godlike in teams, way better than he is in singles. He has good positional throws to set-up team combos, is great at setting up 1v2 situations, amazing at capitalizing on said 1v2 situations with nair/bair, is amazing at team combo'ing, has good kill power, good at racking up dmg, is good at 1v2, great at covering options+space, is great at saving people and he can go far off stage for edge guards. He's really versatile so he can either hang back and support a character with great approaches like Fox, or take point himself. He's just really amazing at like... everything you need in teams.

These are some of the exact reasons Ness is also super good in teams. Especially since he shouldn't have to worry nearly as much when being edge guarded. And I swear a legit strategy is throwing out PK Flashes across the stage. That alone allowed me to take a game from Prof and dizz while teaming with someone who routinely goes 0-2 at Nebs.

Plus, Ness is good at walling characters out. So if your teammate is winning a 1 v 1, Ness is super good at keeping the other character from getting to their partner. He just has a ton of tools in teams.

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle is SS in Teams becauae he can be anywhere on the stage extremely quickly, and is basically the best support to have because of it.

 

[supascoot]

I'm just gonna copy the tier list and delete every character that I think is in or around the right spot

A
(I hate rob so much. But he isn't this good. If the tier list was based off fox matchups alone, then rob would be here 100%, but even with his dumb MU spread and overwhelmingly good moveset I don't agree at all with this spot.)

C
(I don't think that tink is the same level as wario or marth. Call me biased, but considering how deadly a combo that projectiles and fast is, I can't see him anywhere below B tier.)

(I spent ages trying to say why squirtle is bad, but I can't find the words. Nerf bubble )
D
(Considering the fact that squirtle is placed higher than this pair (most likely due to technical potential) it seems odd to have these two so far down. Multiple Lucas mains made is clear that he is still a good, probably C+ tier character. Not as sure about Mewtwo, but going by squirtle, he should be at least a tier up)
(Underrated from what I heard, but I can't really confirm. Perhaps people with better peach knowledge could comment)
(Bowser is weird, and also has a pretty poor MU spread. Considering the poor performance of some very good bowser mains, I'm more convinced that he is a little lower. I also don't know enough about this character, but I fell like hes low tier bait.)

E
(this is salt) (also zard is pretty ok)
(IDK man a link made top 8 at aftershock I can't really argue with that)

Behold my awful scrub tier opinions (ganon and kirby are good but people mentioned that)

 

[Brim]

i think this is my tier list for 3.5

---

S


A




B



C




D




E




F


in terms of balance i pretty much only have issues with fox roy rob at the top and pit link olimar at the bottom

Roy is now where near the top. I play him as my main and I can assure you he's anything but A tier. He really is mid-mid tier at best.
I agree with a lot of the list though. Fox I'm pretty confident is not by himself in S tier.

 

[Idostuff]

Dammit Umbreon, snuffing out my doubles talk.

Anyway, im glad Boiko is here to put into words why i think Ness would be great in doubles.

 

[Boiko]

Roy is now where near the top. I play him as my main and I can assure you he's anything but A tier. He really is mid-mid tier at best.
I agree with a lot of the list though. Fox I'm pretty confident is not by himself in S tier.

You're the minority there.

 

[Brim]

You're the minority there.

Care to explain?

 

[supascoot]

Care to explain?

Many people now consider roy to be one of the top 5 characters in the game since the release of 3.5

 

[nimigoha]

I think any PM tier list with more than 3 serious tiers (really good, good, and okay) and a 'fix this character tier' (Oli and ICs in 3.5) is overstretching.

It's very easy to say who the best characters are. Fox is top tier no-brainer, same with Wolf, arguably Falco, and probably ROB. After that people start to disagree. Even within that people disagree.

But selecting someone like Ivysaur and calling them E tier is 100% misrepresenting the character. You make her sound literally unplayable.

My 3.5 Tier List, order within tiers not a factor.

Top tier:



"Still really good and there's no reason to not play these characters because this is PM guys" tier:



"These characters are either bugged or much worse than everyone else but you can still wreck people with them and get dank combos because this is PM guys" tier:




I'm seriously oversimplifying this. But I think some people are overcomplicating it.

Ivysaur in ****ing E tier smh...

 

[Brim]

Many people now consider roy to be one of the top 5 characters in the game since the release of 3.5

...I really didn't think I had to explain as to what I was implying when I asked: Care to explain?
I really don't think I had to spell out: Why is Roy top tier according to most players then?
I really expected people to actually know when a question is implied.
Now, why is Roy top tier? Because I strongly disagree.

I think any PM tier list with more than 3 serious tiers (really good, good, and okay) and a 'fix this character tier' (Oli and ICs in 3.5) is overstretching.

It's very easy to say who the best characters are. Fox is top tier no-brainer, same with Wolf, arguably Falco, and probably ROB. After that people start to disagree. Even within that people disagree.

But selecting someone like Ivysaur and calling them E tier is 100% misrepresenting the character. You make her sound literally unplayable.

My 3.5 Tier List, order within tiers not a factor.

Top tier:



"Still really good and there's no reason to not play these characters because this is PM guys" tier:



"These characters are either bugged or much worse than everyone else but you can still wreck people with them and get dank combos because this is PM guys" tier:




I'm seriously oversimplifying this. But I think some people are overcomplicating it.

Ivysaur in ****ing E tier smh...

Not that I technically disagree with what you're saying, I just think you're the only player I know of that puts ROB that high... I think he's a great character overall though.

 

[Life]

Practically speaking, Roy is considered top tier because Sethlon and Lunchables (I don't know of any others but feel free to chime in) have great success with him.

Theoretically speaking, I guess the general idea is that he's Marth, but with his best poke also being a combo starter? And yeah he gets punished hard, but so does Marth depending on the matchup? Something along those lines. Also, by the standards of a character that's explicitly supposed to have a bad recovery, his recovery is actually really good for some reason. Dat upB priority.

I think any PM tier list with more than 3 serious tiers (really good, good, and okay) and a 'fix this character tier' (Oli and ICs in 3.5) is overstretching.

I'm in agreement with the sentiment, although I don't know if the exact number is 3.

There are a lot of highly unexplored matchups, because there are fewer top players than there are good/worthwhile characters, so basing the tier list on matchups alone would be tricky.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i think when you disagree with a majority, it's up to you to provide the explanation for your opinion...

 

[Brim]

Practically speaking, Roy is considered top tier because Sethlon and Lunchables (I don't know of any others but feel free to chime in) have great success with him.

Theoretically speaking, I guess the general idea is that he's Marth, but with his best poke also being a combo starter? And yeah he gets punished hard, but so does Marth depending on the matchup? Something along those lines. Also, by the standards of a character that's explicitly supposed to have a bad recovery, his recovery is actually really good for some reason. Dat upB priority.



I'm in agreement with the sentiment, although I don't know if the exact number is 3.

There are a lot of highly unexplored matchups, because there are fewer top players than there are good/worthwhile characters, so basing the tier list on matchups alone would be tricky.

I can't agree with that statement then. If Roy really was that great then Sethlon would've won bigger tournaments before 3.5 and before Project M was effectively booted from most big tournaments. Sethlon is just a great player overall. When 3.5 came out Roy actually had one of his biggest assets lessened: his up-air. Sure he got a spike, but that really didn't change very much.
And about Lunchables I don't disagree he's a fantastic player, but he doesn't play Roy that much aside from Vs.ing Sethlon. If he did his Roy would be on stream more.
Here's the official change log for Roy.
Aerials
-Down Aerial
--Sweet spot now spikes with the fire animation.
--Knock back and KBG changed to 40 BKB and 60 KBG.
-Up Air landing lag increased from 15 (7 L-cancelled) to 18 (9 L-cancelled).

Specials
-Forward Special (Double Edge Dance)
--Can now clank with opposing moves, including projectiles. This excludes Side Special Down Four.
--Down Four can no longer be absorbed.
--Received a few very small tweaks to properly match Melee's frame data on the first three hits.
--Changed input window for next attack from frames 20-29 to frames 22-29.
-Down Special (Counter)
--Now properly covers his feet after the counter frames become active.

Grab
-Dash Grab range has been shortened slightly.

Others
-Hit boxes have been altered minutely to better match animations.
-Slow walk speed significantly increased.

Source -

Honestly, most of the above changes ^
Were not necessarily bad or good, really next to nothing changed about Roy in 3.5

 

[Deleted member]

Roy is now where near the top. I play him as my main and I can assure you he's anything but A tier. He really is mid-mid tier at best.
I agree with a lot of the list though. Fox I'm pretty confident is not by himself in S tier.

As a moderately good Roy player, I can confirm that Roy is top 5. His d tilt tip being 90bkb and ******** up b are obvious problems along with other small things like Dair tip kbg, and DED x>>< IASA. Even if you fix/tone down all of these things, hes still an AMAZING CHARACTER due to his great normals and matchup spread vs the other relevant characters.

also lol fox is really dumb

And about Lunchables I don't disagree he's a fantastic player, but he doesn't play Roy that much aside from Vs.ing Sethlon. If he did his Roy would be on stream more.

I actually main roy now lol. I've used roy significantly more than I have toon link in the past 2 months, to the point where its 75% roy and 25% toon link. I won vs Sethlon and Strong Bad at 2 different tourneys this past week because of going Roy for the majority of my matches. If you go and watch my videos on TLOC from the past few months I more often than not am playing Roy. Roy is really, really ****ing good.

 

[nimigoha]

Not that I technically disagree with what you're saying, I just think you're the only player I know of that puts ROB that high... I think he's a great character overall though.

Go back a few pages and it was everyone saying ROB was really really good and DrinkingFood saying 'yes but' the whole time.

As much as matchups are very unexplored in PM, ROB (already being really good in a few areas) has the added bonus of having really good spacie matchups.

 

[Brim]

As a moderately good Roy player, I can confirm that Roy is top 5. His d tilt tip being 90bkb and ******** up b are obvious problems along with other small things like Dair tip kbg, and DED x>>< IASA. Even if you fix/tone down all of these things, hes still an AMAZING CHARACTER due to his great normals and matchup spread vs the other relevant characters.

also lol fox is really dumb

I don't disagree you're a good player Lunchables, I've seen you play on numerous occasions. Very few however were as Roy.
-
My argument for why Roy isn't very good is because next to none of his attacks are safe, but almost every character has more than one or two safe options: throw in his safe down tilt (mostly). Then you have ONE safe move where as many other characters have more than a couple safe moves. Like the obvious Falco, Fox, and Falcon, and quite a few more that I won't get into.
And then you add in one of the worst recoveries in the game where all it has going for it aside from some angling properties and some priority where that's easy to beat out. Sethlon and Lunchables don't win their games because of Roy's assets but because they themselves are great players. At least it's not the same Melee recovery though...

 

[GP&B]

One really safe move that leads to pretty much all of your punish options, one which includes a finishing Bair.

Sorry, not seeing how Roy is anything other than fantastic.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't disagree you're a good player Lunchables, I've seen you play on numerous occasions. Very few however were as Roy.
-
My argument for why Roy isn't very good is because next to none of his attacks are safe, but almost every character has more than one or two safe options: throw in his safe down tilt (mostly). Then you have ONE safe move where as many other characters have more than a couple safe moves. Like the obvious Falco, Fox, and Falcon, and quite a few more that I won't get into.
And then you add in one of the worst recoveries in the game where all it has going for it aside from some angling properties and some priority where that's easy to beat out. Sethlon and Lunchables don't win their games because of Roy's assets but because they themselves are great players. At least it's not the same Melee recovery though...

Although I do appreciate you thinking sethlon and I are great players, the character is slightly to blame.

It doesn't matter the amount of safe moves you have, it matters what are the applications of those safe moves. Roys down tilt is very problematic due to the additional BKB on the tip, so you combine that with proper dash dancing (Which is something I feel that Sethlon should abuse more, Dash Dancing is the 20RR meta) and his neutral becomes dumb as a result. Roys down tilt is safe on shield, safe on whiff, breaks ASDI Down at 0%, breaks true CC at 60%, combos into fsmash from the tip at 0% (aka f throw d tilt fsmash is REALLY dumb), converts into combos, converts into itself, converts into grab, converts into kills, and even if they properly DI the move, you still obtain positional advantage.

Roys recovery is also dumb, the up b float is ridiculous and you can disrespect up b into people all the time. It's not one of the best in the game, but calling it one of the worst in the game is REALLY disrespectful to olimar players.

 

[Player -0]

Falcon has safe moves?

More than a couple safe moves? Can you name a few characters that have safe moves besides swordies, Samus, and like, idk, Ganon?

Edit - @Lunchables Tips for punishing mediocre-ly spaced D-Tilts from Roy? If you don't have at least a decent grab range it seems to be really hard to punish. Probably Wi-Fi bias because frame-tight OoS options are hellllll on Wi-Fi. I should get out more. Probably just Wi-Fi but any tips anyway?

 

[Soft Serve]

I know the post about the doubles tier list was a joke, but i think it would be a fun discussion to actually have since we seem to pretty much agree on what the singles tier list looks like atm. So here we go, a doubles tier list based on very little experience and meta development. Note that chars are grouped into tiers, but not ordered within tiers.

S:
A:
B:
C:

i am very aware that this might be totally wrong, more of excuse to start a discussion.

Olimar is amazing in doubles. Like fantastic. he just hits hard, controls space, walls out, can piggy back off teammates for easy team combos, kills. His recovery problems are fixed because bam, they can't always just hold ledge unless your teammate is ****.

Pikachu is also fantastic in doubles, think fox with a better recovery but slightly less threatening. quick stocks though gimps, has upsmash for team combos off a grab setup, etc.

Diddy is unreliable in teams. Great support, good stock tank, but needs a teammate with item play and confirming kills can be rough. E does add even more chaos to the game which a lot of teams/character combinations thrive on.

I think a lot of certain team comps break the idea of a "tier list" for individual character viability in doubles (like snake and a character with an izuna drop like throw), but generallyI feel like most of pm breaks the whole agressor=carry, passive=support thing that is a popular idea in melee at a lot of levels. Like, I think ganon/diddy is a really really good team. But Diddy is both the support and the aggressor, he's the one making plays and setting things up for the most part. Ganon is the carry and feeds off the chaos and setups diddy brings by hitting fast and hard.

The support/carry dichotomy isn't even that accurateimo. I feel like doubles fits better if you assign terms like "proactive/reactive" "agressor/waller" "disruption vs punish", and then stock tanker and stock taker. A lot of this is even just player based not character.

I love doubles. I think almost every pm character is amazing in doubles. Unless you're a character who needs a lot of room to work, you probably have a lot of layers of synergy with any other given character. I think marth/dk/wolf/zss/squirtle/ike are some of the characters who struggle more in teams, but are still good enough to make it work.


I think team wise, some of the best teams are
snake/metaknight
fox/gnw
Double floaties/fatties (puff/samus, rob/peach, ddd/bowser, etc)

I think falcon/mk might be really really good too. I'm just imagining all the tech chase knee followups off mks everything, then then two just taking turns nairin around


Doubles is the best meta in smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon has safe moves?

More than a couple safe moves? Can you name a few characters that have safe moves besides swordies, Samus, and like, idk, Ganon?

Falcons "safe move" isn't really a move, its more of just his dash dance

 

[nimigoha]

Roys recovery is also dumb, the up b float is ridiculous and you can disrespect up b into people all the time. It's not one of the best in the game, but calling it one of the worst in the game is REALLY disrespectful to olimar players.

3.6 trailer shows what looks like a nerfed recovery.

 

[Life]

There isn't really such a thing as "safe" moves because you do not have a perfect reaction time where you can just throw it out at the perfect frame where they'll run into it. A game with truly safe moves would be SUPER boring, because the optimal play would be to do nothing for fear of your opponents' safe moves.

There are moves that are safe SITUATIONALLY, but you can't rely on them.

It just so happens that Roy's safest move is also one of the best combo starters in the game.

 

[Idostuff]

3.6 trailer shows what looks like a nerfed recovery.

shoutouts to me for pointing that out. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/30tv89/roys_upb_changed_in_36/

So @ Soft Serve , would simply not have a tier list for Doubles? Since according to your post, it seems like you think that it is a pointless idea.

 

[Brim]

Although I do appreciate you thinking sethlon and I are great players, the character is slightly to blame.

It doesn't matter the amount of safe moves you have, it matters what are the applications of those safe moves. Roys down tilt is very problematic due to the additional BKB on the tip, so you combine that with proper dash dancing (Which is something I feel that Sethlon should abuse more, Dash Dancing is the 20RR meta) and his neutral becomes dumb as a result. Roys down tilt is safe on shield, safe on whiff, breaks ASDI Down at 0%, breaks true CC at 60%, combos into fsmash from the tip at 0% (aka f throw d tilt fsmash is REALLY dumb), converts into combos, converts into itself, converts into grab, converts into kills, and even if they properly DI the move, you still obtain positional advantage.

Roys recovery is also dumb, the up b float is ridiculous and you can disrespect up b into people all the time. It's not one of the best in the game, but calling it one of the worst in the game is REALLY disrespectful to olimar players.

I don't see how this applies to Olimar players, but okay. Now I see it never mind. My mistake.
Also, it's fair to point out at least Olimar has a relative tether recovery. And I must point out I did not call Roy's the worst recovery, I said one of the worst.
I just don't know how it could be much worse combined with what a blatant fast faller Roy is, and topping it all off how much end lag his aerials seem to have in the air.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I think any PM tier list with more than 3 serious tiers (really good, good, and okay) and a 'fix this character tier' (Oli and ICs in 3.5) is overstretching.

Dividing rankings into tiers is an inherently arbitrary exercise. 3 tiers is no less arbitrary than 1, 2, 7, or 41 tiers. The idea that drawing the line in certain places, or a certain number of times, is somehow clearly superior to an alternative configuration is foolishness.