Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

Oooohh I didn't realize he asked who ROB struggled against, I mentally blocked that out somehow and just read "Who are the top 5 characters"
that explains the confusion hopefully

Yeah, thats exactly why I was like "You don't like rob vs roy or samus?!!?! Are you nuts?"

we all make mistakes, 2.5 sonic was in a public build.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, thats exactly why I was like "You don't like rob vs roy or samus?!!?! Are you nuts?"

we all make mistakes, 2.5 sonic was in a public build.

wizzrobe thought it was fine.

 

[pkblaze]

So, scrub level soap box incoming, but I don't think Melee samus is in any way even or better with either melee spacey. This probably has something to do with being better than any samus main in my city, but w/e.

I think Samus is notable vs spacies cuz she isn't at a significant disadvantage vs their shield pressure, but that her ability to contest their shield pressure is vastly overrated in terms of importance. Spacies that play less mindless agro/in samus's face and play more based on stage control and baiting options out in a mid-range game will dumpster samus. She sucks balls at covering the range outside of her WD tilt range.

Obviously that changes in PM so IDK how the MU works here.

 

[Boiko]

So, scrub level soap box incoming, but I don't think Melee samus is in any way even or better with either melee spacey. This probably has something to do with being better than any samus main in my city, but w/e.

I think Samus is notable vs spacies cuz she isn't at a significant disadvantage vs their shield pressure, but that her ability to contest their shield pressure is vastly overrated in terms of importance. Spacies that play less mindless agro/in samus's face and play more based on stage control and baiting options out in a mid-range game will dumpster samus. She sucks balls at covering the range outside of her WD tilt range.

Obviously that changes in PM so IDK how the MU works here.

That's why Samus has to threaten their space, which she's good at, because she has options for cutting out escapes.
Watch Hax vs. Plup. Hax does just that, camps super hard with lasers. Then Plup closes the gap, and threatens with his presence, and it begins to limit Hax's options. He makes some bad plays and loses because of it.

You're definitely right, that's how the match up SHOULD be played. But don't forget to consider that she has great zoning tools as well as anti pressure options.

 

[G13_Flux]

He definitely has an amazing backwards glide toss and a relevant forward glide toss, and can make other moves available while holding an item, and still one of the easiest powershields
Definitely not looking good for ROB from where I'm standing

what makes his powershield easier might i ask? does it have something to do with the size of the inner reflect bubble? i know you need to hit shield within 2 frames of a projectile colliding with it, so other than that I dont really understand what would make it easier.

So in pm has there ever been a consensus on what it a real pivot grab? Its strange that two different techniques go by the same name (grabbing on the pivot frame and grabbing then immediately turning around).

I think since theyre generally used in the same exact situations, people just refer to them as the same. it just depends on the character and the range/speed/lag of their standing grab versus their pivot grab when deciding which one you want to use.

It's never really been about the tethers for me, but rather that she has a guaranteed dsmash if you and your opponent land on top platform from an UpB, which makes her threatening in shield. That, combined with the changing platform heights which generally only help her, her utilt covers almost an entire platform, cutting off recovery options.

Idk, Minty actually thinks it's in Samus' favor last I heard (Saturday). I'm inclined to disagree and call it closer to even. Camping with lasers can give her a hard time, and that's why I don't like Falco on Dreamland, but her safeness in shield basically negates Falco's pressure, and you obviously can't sleep on her ability to gimp.

Idk, that's all melee though, and we're not here to discuss that.

whats this guarenteed dsmash situation youre talking about? up has a lot of lag on the end of it, cant see any way she could get a guarenteed follow up from that. could you just clarify please?

 

[941]

we all make mistakes, 2.5 sonic was in a public build.

And 3.5 Ice Climbers are still in a public build. Seriously though, I really think they need some changes oriented toward making them closer match Melee Ice Climbers, because right now they seem to have all the weaknesses of Melee ICs, but a lot of the small differences make it really difficult to play them in both games (plus it might inspire more than 5 people to play them and we can get an idea of how balanced the character actually is).

 

[Chevy]

Except for her edge game being worse, the rest of those aren't really even significant in light of the buffs she received tbh

And I'm certainly not trying to argue that she's worse in PM. But she's not strictly better, and other than up-smash and extender, all of those nerfs are relevant.

 

[Life]

So, scrub level soap box incoming, but I don't think Melee samus is in any way even or better with either melee spacey. This probably has something to do with being better than any samus main in my city, but w/e.

I think Samus is notable vs spacies cuz she isn't at a significant disadvantage vs their shield pressure, but that her ability to contest their shield pressure is vastly overrated in terms of importance. Spacies that play less mindless agro/in samus's face and play more based on stage control and baiting options out in a mid-range game will dumpster samus. She sucks balls at covering the range outside of her WD tilt range.

Obviously that changes in PM so IDK how the MU works here.

If Fox gets too far from Samus, Samus can just walk forward, and eventually at some point Fox has to jump over her or he will run out of room; this is why Dream Land is so good for Fox, because it's the safest stage to do that on AND Fox has to do it less often due to having more room to run (which in turn is presumably a pretty big reason why Logan was complaining about how Samus mains overvalue DL in spacie matchups). Staying far enough from Samus to not get hit by her and close enough to Samus that she can't just walk forwards and reset the situation is easier said than done.

Samus-Fox is very close to being even; Samus-Falco is apparently harder (IIRC it was Plup who picked up Sheik for that matchup specifically, which is kind of hilarious considering that matchup isn't much better); Samus-Marth and Samus-Sheik are relatively hard, as far as I'm aware. Samus' success in Melee right now is mostly based on a relatively pretty good Fox matchup. You might say she's a side beneficiary of 20XX in the same way Marth is.

At least that's my understanding of the situation. Anyone care to correct me?

 

[DrinkingFood]

what makes his powershield easier might i ask? does it have something to do with the size of the inner reflect bubble? i know you need to hit shield within 2 frames of a projectile colliding with it, so other than that I dont really understand what would make it easier.

He has a slim frame (in the front anyways) and a large shield (which usually corresponds to powershield size) so there's a lot of space in front of him a projectile can travel through without hitting him, during which he can pull up his shield and powershield since the projectile will be in the powershield bubble during the first frame.
The projectile only has to be in contact with the shield (a digital input on the trigger btw) during the first two frames, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a two frame window, if the projectile traveled instantly then yeah it'd be a two frame window, but afaik no projectile travels instantly. Even ROB's laser doesn't- it travels about a ROB width per frame for the weak laser.

 

[Boiko]

StereoKiDD, who has officially moved to Florida, attended his first tournament there.

A 44 man bracket featuring some great players you may know, like Plup. Stereo won, winner's side, never dropped a set. Ness sux tho.

 

[Player -0]

How did he win the Samus MU?

 

[Boiko]

Does Plup play Samus in PM?

 

[eideeiit]

Match up inexperience, duh.


(For reals tho, this is awesome.

Also Plup's gone Sheik the few times I've seen him in PM 3.5)

 

[Player -0]

I know Plup played MK in 3.02 but I figured he'd play Samus in 3.5

 

[eideeiit]

I know very little about item play, but as far as I can tell Pit's glide tosses are frigging huge. Has anyone ever used these in any way? I'd like to see them in action.

 

[Player -0]

Pit's glide tosses. I'd like to see them in action.

Pit's glide tosses.

Pit

Your first mistake was assuming anyone still plays Pit

 

[Frost | Odds]

I like Pit, have tried a bunch to make him work. He just isn't very fly, even for a white guy.

 

[Deleted member]

@Lunchables beat me with roy again

****

 

[Deleted member]

hey

I have to play losing matchups as well

@ Strong Badam picked fox vs my TL and went 1-2 vs me HAH

 

[Deleted member]

i saw DK vs roy that was hype

 

[Deleted member]

i saw DK vs roy that was hype

Actually just "Touch of Death: The MU"

 

[Deleted member]

one time at apex 2014 me and SB were playing throw-away matches and we did sheik vs DK on YS and it was literally 7 death combos, and he just got 4 to my 3 and won lmao. best match i ever played yet

 

[Sartron]

StereoKiDD, who has officially moved to Florida, attended his first tournament there.

A 44 man bracket featuring some great players you may know, like Plup. Stereo won, winner's side, never dropped a set. Ness sux tho.

yeah this guy was amazing but MrLz played really fierce 2-3 sets.

 

[Boiko]

yeah this guy was amazing but MrLz played really fierce 2-3 sets.

Is that the G&W? And if you think he's amazing, you should see the rest of NYC.

 

[jtm94]

Ness is good. Gets too much hate.

MrLz actually best GnW. It's crazy. Were the sets recorded? What tourney?
Beaten some really good people.

 

[Boiko]

Ness is good. Gets too much hate.

His biggest weakness is his terrible recovery. He's basically dead when he has to use up b. Almost the entire cast can edge guard him with forward smash.

 

[Life]

The main issue with Ness is that while he has great punishes, there are many other characters who also have great punishes that don't get edgeguarded as easily and are stronger in neutral as well.

He's a decent character in a roster full of characters that are all slightly better than him. This puts him low on the hypothetical tier list, but doesn't mean he's unplayably bad like it would in previous Smash games.

 

[Bazkip]

What's up with ledge grab boxes like this

I know ledge grab boxes generally extend past the body of the character, as otherwise sweetspotting would be prohibitively difficult, but to not even overlap with it at all strikes me as questionable.

 

[eideeiit]

One more reason to hate G&W.

Will we ever run of these?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm still a little bit afraid to tell @ Strong Badam that I think he underrates G&W pretty hard, but it's also possible that my DI just sucks.

GnW just gets so much stuff guaranteed (especially in the vertical plane due to upB), his neutral really isn't that bad, and edgeguarding him is so, so difficult compared to most of the cast.

I don't think he's top tier, but maybe around the Samus/Yoshi/Falco zone just below top.

 

[Deleted member]

God no, GnW isn't even close to high tier

GnWs combos are guaranteed at mid level gameplay, but if you can actually SDI then Gnw gets basically nothing off of combos. Up Throw into U air/Up B combos have great counterplay options by smash DI'ing to the opposite direction hes going (hes u airing and moving right, SDI left and now he CANNOT followup).

GnWs Neutral is ok ish, but bacon serves 0 threat to most characters, he has an incredibly poor weight, and basically does roys neutral game but worse (dash dance, cc d tilt/fair).

Edge Guarding GnW isn't really a big deal as long as you look at it from the correct perspective. Instead of trying to ledge hog his up b and/or gimp him, you can instead pile on a **** ton of damage as he comes back or trade a kill move with his up b. Edge Guarding gnw is killing him, not edge guarding him.

 

[Ripple]

Fatties don't get out even with SDI. Is a rough life

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Lunchables that makes sense, I'm probably just biased because Bowser really doesn't get out of much, regardless of SDI.

Does the pan actually land cancel / is it safe on shield?

 

[JOE!]

Fatties are so frail yet are supposed to be the durable ones, what gives?

 

[Player -0]

@Lunchables Tips on SDI'ing moves? I typically don't bother SDI'ing individual moves because I get a random aerial or waste a DJ.

Spoiler: How I SDI rapid jabs

1. Be not in an actual match.
2. Be assuming I'm on the left and the rapid jabber person is rapid jabbing me from the right and I'm SDI'ing through them.
3. -> -> -> -> -> repeat, done in quick succession.
4. (Same time as 3.) -> -> (mash)

 

[Deleted member]

Fatties don't get out even with SDI. Is a rough life

Rip Fatties, just like Rip gnw being high tier because no fatties are high/top tier characters

@Lunchables that makes sense, I'm probably just biased because Bowser really doesn't get out of much, regardless of SDI.

Does the pan actually land cancel / is it safe on shield?

If you connect the Pan on shield, you have to go through hitlag so idk how safe it is on shield. I don't know what you mean by land cancels, are you asking if it auto cancels? If so, yes, why wouldn't it?

@Lunchables Tips on SDI'ing moves? I typically don't bother SDI'ing individual moves because I get a random aerial or waste a DJ.

Spoiler: How I SDI rapid jabs

1. Be not in an actual match.
2. Be assuming I'm on the left and the rapid jabber person is rapid jabbing me from the right and I'm SDI'ing through them.
3. -> -> -> -> -> repeat, done in quick succession.
4. (Same time as 3.) -> -> (mash)

My Smash DI is actually really ****ing good and its one of the few mechanics I've never actually explored/went into the lab on. All I do is whenever I'm getting hit by a move and I want to smash DI it, I smash the analog stick and cstick in the direction I want to go on the frame I feel like I'm going to get hit. It just kind of works, if you rewatch me vs. Strong Bad from the twitch vods on PMCentral I SDI 90% of his Fox U throw U airs.

BTW, it seems kind of worthless to smash DI single hit moves, but I think @ Strong Badam and I can both testify that at high level gameplay you need to SDI some single hit moves (mainly juggling moves like Roy, GnW, and DK U air) to escape bad positions. Hell, Strong Bad and I even smash DI kill moves so we don't die at as early of %s. Its a very helpful and subtle mechanic.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fatties more or less not having access to important pieces of counterplay as you approach top level gameplay is the main reason I dropped DK as my main in late 2013. It feels so helpless and frustrating to be unable to improve your gameplay.

& yeah I think Lunchables has the best SDI in PM right now.

 

[Soft Serve]

What's up with ledge grab boxes like this

I know ledge grab boxes generally extend past the body of the character, as otherwise sweetspotting would be prohibitively difficult, but to not even overlap with it at all strikes me as questionable.

Gnw has had that since melee Lol

A lot of characters have great magnet hands snap, but that luigi one is crazyyy

 

[Deleted member]

GAW is not even close to top tier lol

 

[CORY]

Fatties more or less not having access to important pieces of counterplay as you approach top level gameplay is the main reason I dropped DK as my main in late 2013. It feels so helpless and frustrating to be unable to improve your gameplay.

& yeah I think Lunchables has the best SDI in PM right now.

is it possible, hypothetically, to give different characters different sdi multipliers? (or just different distances, if that's not what the multiplier does?).