Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

I don't think so nor do I think that would be desirable. It would result in things like heavier characters being able to SDI down (untrue CC) even better than they can already, and would probably be visually jarring seeing them teleport due to SDI.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What about increasing fat characters' weights a bit in order to make them slightly harder to combo, as well as improving some of their defensive options, like rolls and spotdodges?

The intent wouldn't be to make those options great - merely to provide viable counterplay and reduce some polarization. Mind that even if their spotdodges are better than some other characters' (read: CF) in terms of frame data, the fatties' dodges will still be necessarily worse in some respects due to the sheer size of their hurtboxes, and the ease of hitting them with lingering/traveling hitboxes.

Hell, I don't think I've seen a single complaint about Ganon's new spotdodge, anywhere - even though he's easily the strongest of the fat characters in the current patch, and the smallest in terms of horizontal space occupied. Though that's probably due in part to the brilliant work by the animation team, it's a solid precedent.

 

[Strong Badam]

Making them heavier does not make them harder to combo, silly.

 

[Frost | Odds]

No? My understanding was that increased weight -> decreased knockback -> decreased hitstun; hence why it's so much more of a pain to combo Samus than Jigglypuff.

quantum_leap_mental_challenges.gif

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

No? My understanding was that increased weight -> decreased knockback -> decreased hitstun; hence why it's so much more of a pain to combo Samus than Jigglypuff.

quantum_leap_mental_challenges.gif

That makes it harder to kill not harder to combo. Also how is Jiggs easy to combo?

 

[Strong Badam]

Unless you change their falling speed as well, the fact that they go less far means that combos work for longer. A weight increase is only an objective buff in one regard, and that's vs weight-dependent speed throws. They end up having more endlag, so they can't combo as well.

 

[Player -0]

Weight reduces hitstun still, right?

One of the main reason Samus sucks to combo is her super fast/pretty big Nair. Her being floaty helps too as if she was a fast faller then people wouldn't have to travel to hit her again in a combo as much. It would kill her recovery and stuff too.

 

[CORY]

What about increasing fat characters' weights a bit in order to make them slightly harder to combo, as well as improving some of their defensive options, like rolls and spotdodges?

The intent wouldn't be to make those options great - merely to provide viable counterplay and reduce some polarization. Mind that even if their spotdodges are better than some other characters' (read: CF) in terms of frame data, the fatties' dodges will still be necessarily worse in some respects due to the sheer size of their hurtboxes, and the ease of hitting them with lingering/traveling hitboxes.

Hell, I don't think I've seen a single complaint about Ganon's new spotdodge, anywhere - even though he's easily the strongest of the fat characters in the current patch, and the smallest in terms of horizontal space occupied. Though that's probably due in part to the brilliant work by the animation team, it's a solid precedent.

people already covered the weight not necessarily conveying protection from combos, but i actually agree heavily with giving fat characters, overall, better defensive options.

quicker characters don't really *need* faster spotdodges and (tech)rolls, since they have a good overall defensive option in being able to more easily pick their battles. give the less mobile characters better actual defensive options (spot dodge, rolls, techs, etc...) since they'll probably be put into positions to use them more often.

especially since many fat characters seem to have shield issues, due to their frame size (or am i misconstruing stuff here?).

/all imo

 

[jtm94]

@Bazkip
Still can't sweetspot past Ike eruption or fair.

Also Sheik's recovery is pretty free to edgeguard, she must be B A D.

@ Frost | Odds
Uhh, I have an incredibly hard time recovering against Bowser.
Any character that has good invincible nairs/bairs from ledge can just send him back. And half the moves that would send him off stage outright KO him half the time.
His UpB isn't disjointed enough to beat out things even without invincibility. There's a point where he's upside down and that's towards the end of it through and the hitbox is centered above him in a disjointed fashion. You can use that to go through projectiles.
Frying pan is safe on shield. You can do frying pan > jab just like Sheik can do AC fair > jab. You can also do frying pan > UpB, but you are left above them and well... You can't be too sloppy about it though, need the pan hitbox to come out close to the ground.

Even just regular DI can get you out of GnW combos. People get hit by things like GnW pillars and they're pretty situational on both % and DI. If people can escape Falco pillars then GnW isn't nearly as threatening. When I uair someone like multiple times in a row and they don't move, that is a problem. He has silly things, I think bacon is one of them being fairly low commitment and high quantity, but it's still hard to predict, though we are making breakthroughs to use it consistently. His dash attack hits through ledge pretty far and sends at a strange angle with a lot of stun and DACUS is amazing.

 

[Life]

I also feel like GnW is pretty good, but I'm biased for two reasons:

1. I'm a Squirtle main and GnW has all the tools it takes to make Squirtle's life a pain (large persistent hitboxes and good CC options)

2. Due to a very old Brawl habit, I frequently DI and SDI bair up. In Brawl, GnW bair hit repeatedly and you could reasonably expect every hit to connect, which meant that you could get out of the strong bair hit and smack GnW during endlag if you played it that way. In PM, this just gets you combo'd, so it's better to DI away. Trying to work on this but I don't always get it.

 

[robosteven]

is there a spotdodge tier list

 

[Player -0]

Yes, There are like, 5 categories. Not sure where it is though, I've seen it.

Link's spotdodge being top tier ftw. Fox's is top tier too because lol.

 

[Ripple]

Someone should explain why they purposefully made ddd's spot dodge **** tier instead of just making it average.

I know it was godlike in brawl but why make it ****?

 

[robosteven]

Yes, There are like, 5 categories. Not sure where it is though, I've seen it.

Link's spotdodge being top tier ftw. Fox's is top tier too because lol.

I'm still unsure why a basic mechanic like spot-dodging hasn't been at least slightly normalized. Not to say that the good ones should be nerfed, but the fact that there are characters where spot-dodging essentially doesn't work because of how bad it is for a certain character (like Bowser) seems wrong. To me at least it seems comparable to if shielding activated on a later frame for certain characters.

I'd mostly just like to see who the characters in the category of "garbage spotdodge" are so that I can complain about them not being as good as Fox even more.

edit: after reading Ripple's post it has been made clear to me that spotdodges were in fact changed. Someone feel free to correct me on spotdodge info pls

 

[Deleted member]

Someone should explain why they purposefully made ddd's spot dodge **** tier instead of just making it average.

I know it was godlike in brawl but why make it ****?

my guess is that it's because ASDI out of that weight class is already obnoxious as ****

 

[Saproling]

is there a spotdodge tier list

http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/
Im not sure if this is correct but this is what I found.

 

[Player -0]

Doesn't DDD's spotdodge still have the dumb Z-Axis thing making it not as bad?

PMDT should probably fix these problems though. The Ganon spotdodge/roll was a really cool change that wasn't overbearing.

 

[Ripple]

DDD's sot dodge was "fixed" so that he can be hit. Hence why I asked why it was made bad instead of averageaverage or even above average.

And so what @Umbreon ? Just because a character has a good ability to asdi doesn't mean they should automatically get a bad spot dodge

 

[robosteven]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/
Im not sure if this is correct but this is what I found.

As mentioned with Ripple's post, it seems that they were changed in PM but I really have no idea.

Characters having a spotdodge worse than 2-20 / 25 seems like really stupid design to me though. Rolls I understand because of distance differences, but I don't understand spot-dodge differences even a little.

 

[G13_Flux]

Fatties more or less not having access to important pieces of counterplay as you approach top level gameplay is the main reason I dropped DK as my main in late 2013. It feels so helpless and frustrating to be unable to improve your gameplay.

& yeah I think Lunchables has the best SDI in PM right now.

do you guys have any plans to kind of thin out that problem with fatties? in terms of design and future patches?

If you connect the Pan on shield, you have to go through hitlag so idk how safe it is on shield. I don't know what you mean by land cancels, are you asking if it auto cancels? If so, yes, why wouldn't it?

i think hes referring to the fact that his neutral b land cancels. also, hitlag happens for both of the characters, so wouldnt that not factor into the frame advantage of a move? since frying pan cancels with 4 frames of landing, and the pan hit does 9%, that would give it ideally a +2 advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

i think hes referring to the fact that his neutral b land cancels. also, hitlag happens for both of the characters, so wouldnt that not factor into the frame advantage of a move? since frying pan cancels with 4 frames of landing, and the pan hit does 9%, that would give it ideally a +2 advantage.

I don't think you'd be able to just make the pan hit not land cancel, its still apart of the rest of the move lol

Also, hitlag and shield stun are completely different from eachother. Hitlag is dependent on the hitlag modifier, as to where shield stun is based on the % of the move hitting the shield. Its stuff like compare roys tipper fair vs his fsmash on shield. Both have normal hitlag modifiers (x1.0) but they do different %, aka different shield stun.

 

[G13_Flux]

I don't think you'd be able to just make the pan hit not land cancel, its still apart of the rest of the move lol

Also, hitlag and shield stun are completely different from eachother. Hitlag is dependent on the hitlag modifier, as to where shield stun is based on the % of the move hitting the shield. Its stuff like compare roys tipper fair vs his fsmash on shield. Both have normal hitlag modifiers (x1.0) but they do different %, aka different shield stun.

well yeah.. thats kind of exactly what i was saying lol. Odds_ was asking about the frying pan hit land canceling (his original quote is below). in your response post, you mentioned stuff about going through hitlag and not knowing how safe itd be, and not understanding what he meant by the land cancel. my post was just to bring up the fact that the hitlag didnt factor into how safe something is on shield, and to actually give the frame data that points to the safety of the move, based on the shieldstun (6, because 9% is done) and the landing lag (4, from the land cancel).

Does the pan actually land cancel / is it safe on shield?

 

[DrinkingFood]

because no fatties are high/top tier characters

Ganon ... easily the strongest of the fat characters in the current patch,

Rest in RIP in Pieces, ROB
Top tier: November 14th, 2014 - April 12th, 2015

 

[Player -0]

When will some rapid jabs be able to be SDI'ed up and down? G&W's and M2's are dumb because you can't.

 

[Deleted member]

Rest in RIP in Pieces, ROB
Top tier: November 14th, 2014 - April 12th, 2015

Rob is basically a heavy/floaty with 0 of the negatives from being a heavy/floaty. It makes me really upset.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Rob is basically a heavy/floaty with 0 of the negatives from being a heavy/floaty. It makes me really upset.

Yeah, I don't think of him as being 'fat' because he doesn't actually have any weaknesses associated with fat characters.

Maybe he has a kinda weak spotdodge or smth?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Being a giant square is an inherent downside, I'm sorry your salt doesn't let you see that lunch
Keep in mind ROB is also just as close to being a semi-floaty as he is to being a floaty
http://i.imgur.com/L2PGvSg.png

 

[Deleted member]

Being a giant square is an inherent downside, I'm sorry your salt doesn't let you see that lunch
Keep in mind ROB is also just as close to being a semi-floaty as he is to being a floaty
http://i.imgur.com/L2PGvSg.png

he's basically a floaty combo weight when you want to set up a kill so if you dont have a hard kill move in neutral hes basically going to live forever, but then hes also heavy af when you want to circumvent crouch at low %. so the same as samus pretty much. only diff for chars like samus is you can get her in the air and kinda pin her because she doesnt have options to do much about it, so she becomes a low tier as soon as she jumps. rob retains or gains options from being airborne and doesnt particularly care so long as he doesnt punt and respects his opponents with good clean play. it's like a win/win/win situation thats exclusive to one character.

as an aside, i dont dislike rob, so no salt here. hell, part of why i wanted to team with one for a major is because i know hes so obnoxious for large chunks of the cast to deal with which leads to a ton of free win margin, particularly vs melee players trying to walk into PM. on that note, good job obliterating westballz lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

as an aside, i dont dislike rob, so no salt here. hell, part of why i wanted to team with one for a major is because i know hes so obnoxious for large chunks of the cast to deal with which leads to a ton of free win margin, particularly vs melee players trying to walk into PM. on that note, good job obliterating westballz lol.

True facts. I'd actually love to team with @ DrinkingFood if we ever found ourselves at the same major

edit: oh crap this isn't the social thread

uh

Anyone done a doubles tier list for 3.5?

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone done a doubles tier list for 3.5?

1. @Dakpo and Lunchables ()

Who cares about the rest

 

[DrinkingFood]

True facts. I'd actually love to team with @ DrinkingFood if we ever found ourselves at the same major

Sure, we'll try that, if I ever get to go anywhere



Also ROB isn't totally immune to juggles. side-b doesn't even start moving until frame 6, and even once it does he's fat so you have a couple extra frames to hit him in that same area. You can juggle him in such a way that his only option is to boost away, putting him offstage usually or near the edge. Or with platforms you can carry him up. Dizzy got me with it. Sethlon has gotten me with it tho I don't remember if it was aftershock or the first time we played. Sure he's less vulnerable to it than, say, samus. But it seems like you compare it to samus every time. Yoshi also has an easier time of it than samus with armor+DJC+Nair, MewTwo also does because teleport+DJC+fair, DDD (Tho he's kinda mid fall speed) has multiple jumps so he can risk multiple jump out attempts and will eventually catch a non-frame tight juggle and escape. And there's also horizontal carries which ROB is super vulnerable to, all those characters are, because DIing down and away just puts you further offstage and DIing up probably won't put you up high enough unless you're high percent. ROB may even be MORE vulnerable to that then some of them because his quick aerial option isn't frame 3 like Yoshi's nair or frame 5 like M2's fair or Samus's nair, it's fair frame 7.

Being juggled isn't totally a floaty weakness either. It's a weakness to anyone not-spacie, or to spacies past certain percents depending on the move. Roy doesn't like getting marth upair'd. Marth doesn't like getting Roy upair'd. Neither like getting falcon upair'd. That floaties go higher means that getting a chance sooner to jump out a drift to the edge. Mid fallers/semi FFers eat more damage before they get a window to jump out. Floaties get to escape sooner. So I don't really see how this is a typical weakness of a floaty, it's a typical weakness of most characters, and ROB isn't the only one in his weight class that gets out earlier than most.

 

[JOE!]

Fatties more or less not having access to important pieces of counterplay as you approach top level gameplay is the main reason I dropped DK as my main in late 2013. It feels so helpless and frustrating to be unable to improve your gameplay.

& yeah I think Lunchables has the best SDI in PM right now.

Can't you guys throw them a bone tho?

 

[Soft Serve]

True facts. I'd actually love to team with @ DrinkingFood if we ever found ourselves at the same major

edit: oh crap this isn't the social thread

uh

Anyone done a doubles tier list for 3.5?

Fox/Gnw best team.

Rob+good floaties would be obnoxious too. Rob/peach feels like a top tier team

 

[eideeiit]

Snake and anyone small and quick enough sounds really good to me.

 

[Leafeon]

1. @Dakpo and Lunchables ()

Who cares about the rest

@Jolteon + @Professor Pro + The Omnigay > Lunchables and Dakpo

 

[Frost | Odds]

Sure, we'll try that, if I ever get to go anywhere

LTC3? I might be able to rob some banks or something and get a ticket out for that one.

Are there any really good links about doubles theory to watch/read? I (and my province) consider me a much better dubs than singles player (in Melee as well), but I have no idea if any of my thoughts about dubs are even remotely on the right track, relative to how top players approach it.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Can't you guys throw them a bone tho?

The public voices of the PMDT need to convince the others to make those kind of changes. Or any kind of change really.

That's why we get lamenting like, "I would love to change that, but I don't have the power to do it."

 

[Scaremonger]

LTC3? I might be able to rob some banks or something and get a ticket out for that one.

Are there any really good links about doubles theory to watch/read? I (and my province) consider me a much better dubs than singles player (in Melee as well), but I have no idea if any of my thoughts about dubs are even remotely on the right track, relative to how top players approach it.

http://textuploader.com/6akt

^written about Melee, but almost all of the concepts should still apply.

 

[Idostuff]

I know the post about the doubles tier list was a joke, but i think it would be a fun discussion to actually have since we seem to pretty much agree on what the singles tier list looks like atm. So here we go, a doubles tier list based on very little experience and meta development. Note that chars are grouped into tiers, but not ordered within tiers.

S:
A:
B:
C:

i am very aware that this might be totally wrong, more of excuse to start a discussion.

 

[eideeiit]

I know the post about the doubles tier list was a joke, but i think it would be a fun discussion to actually have since we seem to pretty much agree on what the singles tier list looks like atm. So here we go, a doubles tier list based on very little experience and meta development. Note that chars are grouped into tiers, but not ordered within tiers.

S:
A:
B:
C:

i am very aware that this might be totally wrong, more of excuse to start a discussion.

(All below is in my opinion from someone that doesn't know that much.)
Snake, Ganon and Bowser are good in teams if the teammate knows what he's doing. Especially Snake, the mines can mess up everything, and the two others have immense power.

Yoshi is probably C, he gets killed easy and Yoshi-stuff isn't that good in teams I imagine.

Why is Ness so high? Bair?

ZSS might suck, she has no kill moves.

Why Lucario so high? I guess he's one of those few characters that can whip up kill combos so quick the teammate can't help the victim, but still...

Why is Peach so low? Most people consider her a great teams character and I'm inclined to agree.

Why's Roy so high? He dies easy and can't combo that well.