Tier List Speculation

[Brim]

shoutouts to me for pointing that out. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/30tv89/roys_upb_changed_in_36/

So @ Soft Serve , would simply not have a tier list for Doubles? Since according to your post, it seems like you think that it is a pointless idea.

In the doubles instance I believe the pointless part about it is how many combinations there really are.

 

[Eisen]

I don't understand Roy and ROB being at the top there, but I don't know those characters terribly well. But Lucas in D? I thought Umbreon was credible...????

 

[Deleted member]

3.6 trailer shows what looks like a nerfed recovery.

3.6 Trailer shows another Roy nerf but no one has noticed yet

Do you know what it is? I'm curious if anyone else saw.

 

[Player -0]

I saw the *All gameplay showed is subject to change.

I'd assume you're referring to Roy's D-Tilt tip while not looking at the video.

 

[nimigoha]

3.6 Trailer shows another Roy nerf but no one has noticed yet

Do you know what it is? I'm curious if anyone else saw.

I don't see how radically better SFX is a nerf ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

It kinda looks like his Dtilt has a bit less knockback but it's hard to tell without a % gauge at the bottom.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see how radically better SFX is a nerf ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

It kinda looks like his Dtilt has a bit less knockback but it's hard to tell without a % gauge at the bottom.

D tilt properly matches melee (90bkb -> 70bkb). If you compare the footage from his tip d tilt to melees, they're identical

 

[Player -0]

Wow, looking back there are a lot more nerfs I didn't see. Of course they might be changed but it looks like Ivy's Bair and Zard's Up-B hangtime were nerfed. I wasn't looking at Ivy's Bair hard so I could be wrong but it looks like less range.

 

[nimigoha]

Looks like it could be a fast fall for Charizard but can't be sure until changelist.

And Ivy's Bair looks the same, assuming you're talking about the part on WW.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm just gonna copy the tier list and delete every character that I think is in or around the right spot

A
(I hate rob so much. But he isn't this good. If the tier list was based off fox matchups alone, then rob would be here 100%, but even with his dumb MU spread and overwhelmingly good moveset I don't agree at all with this spot.)

C
(I don't think that tink is the same level as wario or marth. Call me biased, but considering how deadly a combo that projectiles and fast is, I can't see him anywhere below B tier.)

(I spent ages trying to say why squirtle is bad, but I can't find the words. Nerf bubble )
D
(Considering the fact that squirtle is placed higher than this pair (most likely due to technical potential) it seems odd to have these two so far down. Multiple Lucas mains made is clear that he is still a good, probably C+ tier character. Not as sure about Mewtwo, but going by squirtle, he should be at least a tier up)
(Underrated from what I heard, but I can't really confirm. Perhaps people with better peach knowledge could comment)
(Bowser is weird, and also has a pretty poor MU spread. Considering the poor performance of some very good bowser mains, I'm more convinced that he is a little lower. I also don't know enough about this character, but I fell like hes low tier bait.)

E
(this is salt) (also zard is pretty ok)
(IDK man a link made top 8 at aftershock I can't really argue with that)

Behold my awful scrub tier opinions (ganon and kirby are good but people mentioned that)

Yes, lets nerf the alrwady nerfed bubble that everyone and their mother can still hit through

 

[Binary Clone]

D tilt properly matches melee (90bkb -> 70bkb). If you compare the footage from his tip d tilt to melees, they're identical

How much does this affect his play?

 

[Deleted member]

How much does this affect his play?

Significantly. 2 Main things come from this:
1. Crouch Cancel is now a stronger/better option vs tipper D tilt
2. Even if you don't crouch cancel tipper d tilt, Roy often can't get a followup due to not being popped high enough. It often resets the situation instead of giving roy a conversion (in 3.5, Roy can tipper d tilt fsmash people at 0% if they don't CC)

 

[941]

I feel like very few people actually understand Ice Climbers in relation to the rest of the cast, and most seem to write them off as being bugged, then throw them in the tier list somewhere. I'll give my thoughts on the ICs strengths and weaknesses, and try to define how strong the character actually is:

Neutral Game: ICs are fairly infamous for being bad in neutral, and in PM, their neutral game is among the worst. They do have some solid options for dealing with grounded options from most of the cast, but their options against characters with a strong aerial or platform game are very limited. In addition, many neutral options (desyncs) are relatively unsafe due to the nature of requiring the player to place one of the Climbers in an unfavorable position. Using Nana as bait is certainly a viable option, but due to the nature of the Nana AI in PM, this creates a scenario with a much larger risk than reward. In addition, Sopo is much worse against the majority of the relevant characters than in Melee or Brawl.

Punish Game: This is where ICs have previously been viewed as godlike. Their respective infinites in Melee and Brawl gave the character what was arguably the best punish game in all of Smash. Now that those infinites have been removed (at least the more doable ones), ICs still have a good punish game. They still retain many strong grab/re-grab combos, and have strong smash attacks. The downside, is that many of their punish options aren't very strong against a lot of the cast, and they provide opponents with a lot of opportunity to DI/SDI out. This leaves ICs with very few solid KO setups, the most notable of which, is the ledge hand-off(s) into F-air spike, which can KO most characters at low or medium percents. The problem with this setup, is that it requires both Climbers, a grab near the ledge while also facing the ledge, and an opponent with enough weight to reliably execute the hand-off. To summarize, ICs punish game is OK, but there are quite a few characters with an equal or better punish game, but without the terrible neutral.

Recovery: Ice Climbers have what is possibly the best recovery in PM. However, that recovery is significantly worse when not synced (which is usually the case when ICs are off-stage). Synced ICs can safely cover a lot of distance with side-B as well as up-B. When not synced, side-B still covers a fair amount of horizontal distance, but not much vertical distance, as well as becoming much less safe. ICs solo up-B is nearly useless, as it only gives a small amount of vertical distance, and causes ICs to lose horizontal momentum.

Conclusion: Ice Climbers do have tools to compete with most of the cast, but their punish game is currently not good enough to compensate for their neutral game. This leads to the character having some polarizing MUs, as well as being outclassed by many of the top characters.

 

[Binary Clone]

Significantly. 2 Main things come from this:
1. Crouch Cancel is now a stronger/better option vs tipper D tilt
2. Even if you don't crouch cancel tipper d tilt, Roy often can't get a followup due to not being popped high enough. It often resets the situation instead of giving roy a conversion (in 3.5, Roy can tipper d tilt fsmash people at 0% if they don't CC)

So the bkb reduction is only for the tipper dtilt, right?

That's a very sensible nerf, though.

 

[Soft Serve]

shoutouts to me for pointing that out. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/30tv89/roys_upb_changed_in_36/

So @ Soft Serve , would simply not have a tier list for Doubles? Since according to your post, it seems like you think that it is a pointless idea.

I dont think its pointless. I think there are very clearly characters who are much better in teams than others, but in general there are so many combinations of viable characters who are good in teams that trying to even attempt to list specific tiers is rediculously hard. In melee teams is centered around fox/shiek/peach with a bit of puff, with falco/falcon/marth having some importance but no where as much impact. Its a lot easier to identify which combinations of the top 8 or so characters are amazing when almost half of them aren't the best vs the good teams characters (and its also easier to identify the outlier teams like puff/samus or double peach because of this).

I don't think Fox is central to PM teams meta (although he is probably still the best teams character) because I think in teams is the only time the whole "Spacies are fragile glass canons" thing is even relative to discussion. In PM doubles fox has to fight TWO characters who can kill him from one grab near a ledge, who ALSO have tools to fight him on stage, and these two characters are probably better in teams in general than just for that specific purpose.

Its not pointless but PM teams is so deep its too hard

 

[Deleted member]

Edit - @Lunchables Tips for punishing mediocre-ly spaced D-Tilts from Roy? If you don't have at least a decent grab range it seems to be really hard to punish. Probably Wi-Fi bias because frame-tight OoS options are hellllll on Wi-Fi. I should get out more. Probably just Wi-Fi but any tips anyway?

True crouch cancel beats it until 60% (So if you know its coming you can true CC into a fast move like dsmash), outside if that you need to respect the move and learn when you can and cannot punish the whiff.

So the bkb reduction is only for the tipper dtilt, right?

That's a very sensible nerf, though.

Yes, its only the tipper. The Down Tilt is matched to melee, since in melee its 90bkb on the entire sword and 70bkb on the tip.

 

[Strong Badam]

I dont think its pointless. I think there are very clearly characters who are much better in teams than others, but in general there are so many combinations of viable characters who are good in teams that trying to even attempt to list specific tiers is rediculously hard. In melee teams is centered around fox/shiek/peach with a bit of puff, with falco/falcon/marth having some importance but no where as much impact. Its a lot easier to identify which combinations of the top 8 or so characters are amazing when almost half of them aren't the best vs the good teams characters (and its also easier to identify the outlier teams like puff/samus or double peach because of this).

I don't think Fox is central to PM teams meta (although he is probably still the best teams character) because I think in teams is the only time the whole "Spacies are fragile glass canons" thing is even relative to discussion. In PM doubles fox has to fight TWO characters who can kill him from one grab near a ledge, who ALSO have tools to fight him on stage, and these two characters are probably better in teams in general than just for that specific purpose.

Its not pointless but PM teams is so deep its too hard

Fox is super central to PM teams because when you think of team compositions, Fox is extremely splashable. Think of a character, and then think to yourself what the best 3 characters to team up with are. Fox is almost always in that list. There are teamwork-oriented teams like say, ZSS healing Ness or Lucas or something, and then there are characters that are just generally super good at teams, and Fox is that character.

 

[Hylian]

I will never understand people saying IC's have a bad neutral. They have an amazing neutral game. Not many other characters can get ahead of projectiles which force options. They control space by just the threat of their grab and punish game and while they don't have the marth DD to capitalize on that space control they do it through wavedashing and desynching instead. They can punish you for hitting or grabbing them in neutral, and can bait you into hitting them for a punish. They have more options than any other character in the game in neutral as well considering there are ****ing two of them lmao.

What IC's lack is a good defensive game. Without the light/hard shield from melee they are much easier to shield poke and they crumble under pressure. They don't have fast ways to get out of combos or easy ways to get out of juggles, and while their recovery is ****ing amazing distance-wise it's one of the less safe ones among the cast considering you hitting them out of squall means 1 climber dies 100% if not both, and just grabbing the ledge against belay forces melee belay which is super easy to punish. People see IC's get blown up and punished super hard because of their lack of defensive options, not because of their lack of neutral options. If we are talking about aggressive options, IC's also have the best shield pressure in the game, unmatched by anything spacies can do, it just requires intricate knowledge of desynching. It is ****ing HARD to get in safely on IC's which is why people play so carefully around them, yet don't let up once they are in, in any sort of fashion.

Edit:

While I think lucario is overrated in singles, I think he's the one of it not the best character in the game in teams >_>. His lack of commitment and ability to cover space quickly is sooooo useful, and he is the best character in the game at 2v1.

 

[Soft Serve]

Fox is super central to PM teams because when you think of team compositions, Fox is extremely splashable. Think of a character, and then think to yourself what the best 3 characters to team up with are. Fox is almost always in that list. There are teamwork-oriented teams like say, ZSS healing Ness or Lucas or something, and then there are characters that are just generally super good at teams, and Fox is that character.

yeah I dont think I worded that correctly, or gave good reasoning. I meant more that the game was less "okay, deal with the at least one fox on screen" that happens so much in melee, for a lot of reasons in addition to the fact there are more characters so fox's aren't as saturated. Wasn't trying to say fox isn't amazing/the best splash-able teams character, just that he isn't as common or dictates teams as much just because there are other characters that are good now.

 

[941]

I will never understand people saying IC's have a bad neutral. They have an amazing neutral game. Not many other characters can get ahead of projectiles which force options. They control space by just the threat of their grab and punish game and while they don't have the marth DD to capitalize on that space control they do it through wavedashing and desynching instead. They can punish you for hitting or grabbing them in neutral, and can bait you into hitting them for a punish. They have more options than any other character in the game in neutral as well considering there are ****ing two of them lmao.

What IC's lack is a good defensive game. Without the light/hard shield from melee they are much easier to shield poke and they crumble under pressure. They don't have fast ways to get out of combos or easy ways to get out of juggles, and while their recovery is ****ing amazing distance-wise it's one of the less safe ones among the cast considering you hitting them out of squall means 1 climber dies 100% if not both, and just grabbing the ledge against belay forces melee belay which is super easy to punish. People see IC's get blown up and punished super hard because of their lack of defensive options, not because of their lack of neutral options. If we are talking about aggressive options, IC's also have the best shield pressure in the game, unmatched by anything spacies can do, it just requires intricate knowledge of desynching. It is ****ing HARD to get in safely on IC's which is why people play so carefully around them, yet don't let up once they are in, in any sort of fashion.

Edit:

While I think lucario is overrated in singles, I think he's the one of it not the best character in the game in teams >_>. His lack of commitment and ability to cover space quickly is sooooo useful, and he is the best character in the game at 2v1.

Having a lot of neutral options doesn't mean much if most of those neutral options are bad. They may be able to get ahead of projectiles, but Ice Blocks are slow and beaten by just about everything, and Blizzard has low range and a lot of start-up. I agree that baiting an opponent into hitting one Climber is a viable option, but with their lack of defensive options, the risk of doing so is usually much greater than the reward. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of their aggressive options. In theory they should have great shield pressure, but I've yet to see it, and most players aren't going to sit in shield against them anyway. Getting in safely against ICs is difficult, but any character with good projectile/spacing options can get around that, and opponents don't need to be 100% safe to get in, as taking a trade is usually enough.

 

[Hylian]

They're neutral options are great, not bad at all. Their wavedash -> jab alone is super threatening to most of the cast and very hard to react to. You can easily bait people to try and punish blizzard and punish them for it. They don't have apparent huge hitboxes or anything like that, but they don't really need it with intricate play.

 

[941]

They're neutral options are great, not bad at all. Their wavedash -> jab alone is super threatening to most of the cast and very hard to react to. You can easily bait people to try and punish blizzard and punish them for it. They don't have apparent huge hitboxes or anything like that, but they don't really need it with intricate play.

Every character has the potential to outplay their opponents in neutral, that doesn't mean it's good. I will say ICs have good neutral options against most characters that will try to stay grounded, but against characters with a decent aerial game and/or characters that can utilize platforms, their neutral options are pretty outclassed by a lot of the cast.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually main roy now lol. I've used roy significantly more than I have toon link in the past 2 months, to the point where its 75% roy and 25% toon link. I won vs Sethlon and Strong Bad at 2 different tourneys this past week because of going Roy for the majority of my matches. If you go and watch my videos on TLOC from the past few months I more often than not am playing Roy. Roy is really, really ****ing good.

you've also roy'd me 3 times now.






;_;

 

[Leafeon]

I don't see how this applies to Olimar players, but okay. Now I see it never mind. My mistake.
Also, it's fair to point out at least Olimar has a relative tether recovery. And I must point out I did not call Roy's the worst recovery, I said one of the worst.
I just don't know how it could be much worse combined with what a blatant fast faller Roy is, and topping it all off how much end lag his aerials seem to have in the air.

Your dog wears a diaper.

 

[nimigoha]

Am I not allowed to like your comment unless I change my name to Flareon?

 

[Leafeon]

Am I not allowed to like your comment unless I change my name to Flareon?

Flareon plays smash 4 I think

 

[steelguttey]

stop letting tether characters back on stage

 

[ChiePet]

I'm just gonna copy the tier list and delete every character that I think is in or around the right spot
(Underrated from what I heard, but I can't really confirm. Perhaps people with better peach knowledge could comment)

Gaining nothing but Buffs from Melee to PM, she's still arguably imo in the top 12 minimum; Silly Kyle, VaNz/Jaden, Bladewise, HankyPanky, Irish Mafia, and lloD have been putting in lots of work to show she's going nowhere anytime soon.

 

[Brim]

Your dog wears a diaper.

 

[Yambotico]

So does the melee shield stun formula ((X + 4.45)/2.235)) still apply to pm? Also with the roy dtilt BKB reduction, does that only apply to the outermost hitbubble?

 

[Player -0]

Outermost hitbox is the tip so yeah.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So does the melee shield stun formula ((X + 4.45)/2.235)) still apply to pm?

Yes
But occasionally moves will have hitlag multipliers below 1 (ie x0.5) that effectively give the move more shield stun, because the opponents shield experiences normal hitlag (shields aren't affected by hitlag multipliers) while the attack experiences the reduced hitlag.
tl;dr **** hitlag multipliers

 

[Player -0]

So if I wanted a shield pressure move I would want the lowest hitlag modifier and higher damage, cool. We Wolf's Nair now.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wait why does zss have a bad mu against spacies I don't get it

her big daddy laser kinda disregards the little baby lasers of fox and falco, so even though she can't act out of it as quickly it doesn't really matter

side b seems like really good in general
and you can kinda just poop on spacies with dair until really high percents because they don't pop up high enough, it's basically just like reading falcon dair combos except they have less options because they can't tech because they're always in the air

 

[DrinkingFood]

Low hitlag also means a move is harder to react to getting hit, has less frames to SDI, and has an overlapping window for a single-press l-cancel timing. Can't think of anything good about high hitlag tbh

wait why does zss have a bad mu against spacies I don't get it
her big daddy laser kinda disregards the little baby lasers of fox and falco, so even though she can't act out of it as quickly it doesn't really matter
side b seems like really good in general
and you can kinda just poop on spacies with dair until really high percents because they don't pop up high enough, it's basically just like reading falcon dair combos except they have less options because they can't tech because they're always in the air

Her punishment game is kinda lacking on them
Like if marth didn't have his uthrow or his upair or his tipper fair or his spike

 

[Strong Badam]

High hitlag similary makes moves worse on shield, because the attacker is still in hitlag when the victim has begun shieldstun.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Gaining nothing but Buffs from Melee to PM, she's still arguably imo in the top 12 minimum; Silly Kyle, VaNz/Jaden, Bladewise, HankyPanky, Irish Mafia, and lloD have been putting in lots of work to show she's going nowhere anytime soon.

A lot of characters have solid anti-Peach tools. I'm not sure I'd put her that high and definitely not inside the top 10.

wait why does zss have a bad mu against spacies I don't get it

She has nothing free on spacies. No chaingrabs, hard time comboing them til mid percents, tech chases on them aren't particularly high reward, no momentum-shifting ****-you button like a tipper fsmash, knee, etc to net early kills, no way to establish or maintain control in neutral situations. Meanwhile she's light, semi-floaty, and subject to 3.5 tether mechanics. If not for Flip Jump and the ability to boost Plasma Wire she'd be dead every time she got knocked offstage, but at least with those she's pretty resistant to early gimps.

her big daddy laser kinda disregards the little baby lasers of fox and falco, so even though she can't act out of it as quickly it doesn't really matter

Meanwhile, why do spacies (or anyone) care about Paralyzer? It's hilariously easy to powershield, clank, or in some cases just hop right over, and there's not much reward for using it to begin with. Their projectiles matter far more to you than vice versa.

side b seems like really good in general

lol no

and you can kinda just poop on spacies with dair until really high percents because they don't pop up high enough

Dair actually isn't that good. You can only daircase if they don't DI. Dair->footstool is good at later percents if you catch them sleeping. Combos into other aerials don't really solidify until near mid percents. SDI prevents true followups for at least some percents iirc, maybe if you read their DI. It's also a lot harder to set up than Falcon's stomp due to her significantly lower horizontal air speed and slightly lower ground mobility. If she was faster it'd be more useful.

 

[Magus420]

High hitlag makes it hard or impossible to ground tech the move at high damage with most characters if it puts the hitlag over 10, which usually has their floor collision no longer touching the ground by being in the air for >10 frames. I've done some hilariously bad DI on knees forgetting that happens.

 

[Dakpo]

My Doubles 3.5 tier list

---

S


A



B



C




D




E




F


All completely subjective because character synergy>than anything else. Im also 100% sure fox GnW is the best team.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why do you have Snake listed so high? Is his tranq synergy with Puff that strong?

 

[Bazkip]

Why do you have Snake listed so high? Is his tranq synergy with Puff that strong?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/C4#The_Omni