Tier List Speculation

[Binary Clone]

Fox can also sh bair ac in pm (still I think?) Which is crazy good.

Fox can SH bair autocancel, and so can Falco, who can also autocancel SH uair.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I don't think fox could sh bair ac in melee. @ SpiderMad knows more, but I think something weird lets fox ac his bair like Falco could in melee (and believe its very close to frame perfect though).

 

[Binary Clone]

I don't think fox could sh bair ac in melee. @ SpiderMad knows more, but I think something weird lets fox ac his bair like Falco could in melee (and believe its very close to frame perfect though).

He explains the differences in this video:

For the lazy, essentially it's because of the lack of the Melee gravity quirk, which caused characters to land sooner if they did an aerial very early in their jump; and also because of the 1-frame physics delay in PM, which allows an extra frame for early aerials.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I thought the physics delay was a factor, but I want sure and people tend to get pretty upset if you make that as a cause when it isn't. That's interesting about that melee quirk though, I've never heard of that.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-frame-data-3-5.387348/
SH Air time 22 (physics delay)
Bair AC <3,>23 (1 frame sooner from Melee, due to PM saying **** matching everything exactly)
Melee Quirk N/E
http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/
SH Air time 21
Bair AC: <3 24>
Melee Quirk Existent: Doing Bair 1st airborne frame will reduce your air time by 1 or 2 frames (usually 2, depends on if the aerial messes with your ECB or something).

What if Melee didn't have the physics delay? Still wouldn't work
What about now you also lower the window for the AC by a frame like PM did (possibly due to leaving it like Brawl or w/e)? Close but still wouldn't work because of the Gravity Quirk existing.

Things like SH Bair AC are a mix of this stuff that makes stuff that's far from possible in Melee exist.

For the longest time when I was first discovering this stuff I thought it could be the Landing detection code still not matching Melee exactly: but that could STILL be another thing (at least for Aerials).

_______________________________________________________________________________
Open every link

Things you couldn't do in Melee with Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gyIS-HdUgw Lot of stuff (but missing SH Bair Dair?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=90 Bair Fair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1J176yjTN8#t=54 Bair Fair
[Watch completed Combo video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhJUOzWK05k ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9EllNfEZ-8#t=867 Bair Uair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=70 Marth Section

Early realizations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGHCzl_RMM#t=201
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0sqGLVvFEI#t=120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=verC4r-bmkE
http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-364#post-16580648
_____________________________________________________________________________

Your knowledge of the new opportunities with Early Aerials is still limited not only due to your knowledge of such things now existing, but because of the tight windows for some of these techniques.

Using Melee's Gravity Quark can help you show when you time your Aerials/Specials frame perfect for practice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pch2er2zx9s&t=166 (in Falco's case you can notice it with his head, explained through-out the video)

Even with extensive practice, some of the tougher stuff is still hard to perform in tournament: given the consequences if you mess up. Often nerves will have you input some of the tighter window stuff too early to be successful as well. Here's an example of a hard not so useful one in Melee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-zI5EIpAn4&t=350 (and doing the Bair frame perfect is possibly lowering your window a frame since your air time is reduced 2 frames, kind of counter-intuitive due to the Gravity Quirk in Melee). Things in PM are like Marth's SH Bair Dair, Lucario's SH Fair Dair, MK's SH Uair Bair Squirtle's SH Fair, are all like close to 1 frame windows. Then there's like other hard stuff and so on with different trials I've had people try blah blah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gBDctEu8Hg&t=198 blah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhozZY8GHrE&index=18&list=PLovBMkMLex7wYg0HcCVfW1g-cdrSXy51M

Brawl had 10 frames of buffer, and Smash 4 has some amount similar. This allows in both games for you to input Early Aerials within your Jumpsquat so that they come out frame perfect, along with linking Aerials frame perfect easily. Beyond a thousand other things.

Brawl+ (the mod PM is based off of) had buffer as a custom control option over DMG Display. PM had this feature in 1.0, and 2.1 replaced it with Stock Control (and instead then added a 3 frame option that applied to all players called Input Assist). This was due to players like Reflex and Wizzrobe (primarily Wizzrobe) using buffer (usually near the max amount). Along with people and the PMBR themselves being reluctant to let crazy stuff ruin the game or make it like Brawl: also with TOs having to deal with this as choice for their tournaments, possibly splitting up the fan base.

Buffer isn't understood well by the community in general, even Brawl/Sm4sh players are ignorant mofos when it applies to their game in drastic ways.

I could show you these unreleased videos (need to be viewed in 60fps), one with a frame perfect multi-shine and the other with a PM specific Double one that increases the rate (view in 60fps then view each in .25x). But without my further knowledge on the two: you're unaware of the implications.

Various people, like in this page of the Social thread, are easy to agree now with 1 frame of buffer possibly being a good thing. Years ago on Smashmods and even on Smashboards the general consensus would be more reluctant. The thing is though people like DrinkingFood and such only changed on their moral views on game design surrounding the fact that Buffer eases windows; they didn't increase their knowledge on what the actual and hidden applications of Buffer means in various amounts.
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1471#post-18384349

You need to spend months or so on dedicated Buffer examination beyond having a Smash technical background already, along with playing with the various amounts yourself to determine real time implications. Something you can't do in PM without the Wifi version.

My conclusions on the subject have been the same for the last year or so now.
- PM allowing Buffer anything more than 1 frame changes the game too much for mostly detrimental reasons
- PM allowing Buffer of 1 frame is the only acceptable amount. I'm for it, but not crazy for it. Still very unearthed for its implications sort of like L-cancelling.

One of the many reasons lies with 2 or more frames leading to Brawl's Buffer having the ability to carry multiple inputs. This has many implications, some of which I've been keeping unrevealed. One of the main reasons though is 1 frame of buffer is enough to make 1 frame windows into 2 (and 2 into 3 and so on), which makes performing stupid strict stuff (that might have two different 1 frame strict windows needed, such as a Double Aerial) more do-able and usable in tournament: but that's met with its own questions of whether you want to make certain things more possible or left in the realm of difficult obscurity to be mind blown when someone does accomplish it once (which so far I've tested many of ya'll for the longest time: and few if any come close to acceptable prowess).

Non-tournament PM is another story, and having Custom Buffer and Custom L-cancel would be nice for all the casuals out there. Not having time to fully practice games is a real thing, due to real life..

but yeah real life.. that has something called ergonomics. I already got a job that wears down my hands, like many others out there might as well. Beyond my hands already being on the somewhat worn-out prone side. You can't exactly fix how draining Fox and such can be on your hands, but you can fix two things about Melee
- One is SH being read early for some reason, which was indeed fixed in Brawl and now kept so in PM.
- The other is Hard Press on the GCC being straining on your common controller.

You can either tamper with the controller's parts (weakening the springs and hard press rubber), or replace shoulder parts themselves with other classic/older controllers. Modification is the best and only option for Melee. Same with PM, but pursuing "Light Press Air Dodge" as a custom controller option is the most ergonomic and easy. So much so, that I prefer (need) it even with its negative implications (which are the same implications people are currently enduring that have removed their springs, which achieves what light press air dodge does but in a different and in my view inferior way).
http://smashboards.com/posts/17071426/

 

[PlateProp]

So basically if they ever actually fix the 1 frame physics delay it destroys a bunch of pm specific things

Arguments have been destroyed

 

[SpiderMad]

So basically if they ever actually fix the 1 frame physics delay it destroys a bunch of pm specific things

Arguments have been destroyed

It's one of the many differences in PM, that all combine to create various new new/different things. In regards to the two other things I talked about in the Differences video: I explain a brief (brief in regards to how long you can talk about this stuff) summary in a comment. Which I don't know how to link directly..

Spoiler

Reply · 1


Kyoto771 3 weeks ago
which of these differences do the PMDT plan to work on to match Melee?
Reply · 1


PMDepot 3 weeks ago (edited)
For now it's just the Physics delay they want to remove. I'm sure Magus has some opinion on the other two though which I'll have to ask; otherwise nobody really talks/knows about them. I can give you what I know though =O!!..

Okay so: 1- the IASA difference Oddly enough Kadano felt Melee would have benefit as a game from allowing IASA to be used by Specials/AD. http://smashboards.com/posts/18604370 So if someone like him is for it, I'm gonna guess few to none of any PMDT would have any reason to restrict those actions again. The more I learn though the more I can see why Melee may have went with the choice to restrict them and consequently reasons why Brawl didn't. Brawl even allowed you to cancel hitstun and tumble with AD and similar crazy things. They also probly felt people would feel more comfortable when they get to use specials more given they can use them after aerials just as they do other aerials without any weird difference in timing throwing them off.Especially with how Brawl was super floaty where you'd be in the air a lot anyways, and they wanted to spice up the game of course while also taking out anything that could be seen as too odd in Melee: which this accomplished both. Melee was probably playing it safe gameplay wise as well as trying to have defined aesthetics to be realistic. By not allowing Specials and Air dodge to be used through IASA (which was in the game in the first place to allow it to be played fast while also being aesthetically sound) they probly thought Air dodge and Specials to be too dramatic of animation(s) for abruptly cancelling animations that they created for similar moves (Marth swinging sword into sword quickly; not turning Invincible abruptly like AD or some crazy special) besides it possibly making them too good of a thing to use for a badly spaced Aerial to be able to AD and so on. So Specials (and like-wise something special like Air Dodge which wasn't in Smash 64) were kept "special", and made the actual animation's end still means something rather than being able to do whatever through the IASA anyways.

2- The Gravity Quirk Dr.PeePee http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-554#post-18156712 http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-559#post-18461097 http://smashboards.com/threads/shortened-jumps-via-frame-perfect-aerials.322505/ Generally I see it as a decent thing in Melee, it can make your Aerial (like SH Bair AC with Falco) or Special (like SHDL with Fox) closer to the ground and all that. It also can make SHDF with Marth lower and such (shown in the description with Kadano's post). Thing is when it lowers your height by 2 frames, that's making early aerial's with a 2nd input be more strict. And then the strict early aerial combinations not exist that could exist with those 2 frames of air time not taken away.

So it's a trade-off; and of course a complicated one. And since no one talked about it in regards to PM like ever, I haven't heard any of their opinions yet (which only Magus and a few others would be able to form decently given their understanding of the implications).

and now the Physics delay: which is heard about often but only now through Magus' 3.5 Debug Menu people can see it clearly for themselves. It has a ton of implications just like the two others: but generally in a way that slows down game-play obviously. And then beyond that it plain messes up stuff which I forgot to mention an example (but did in the description). Some of the down-falls can be seen as a benefit; like the extra air time given you have that first airborne frame that didn't go anywhere yet. But that's just making your jump seem slower with every character..though possibly more realistic? Maybe that's why Brawl had it, just like Brawl's landing detection had you land when your feet touched the ground rather than Knees in Melee [which gave Melee a better air game with the ability to get moves to hit lower; which looks more realistic IMO. In conclusion: they definitely want to remove the Physics delay and for good reason. The other two things are more obscure, and generally more of a decision if you want to match Melee or try something new.

But yes the 1 frame physics delay removed would give you 1 frame less of Air time: killing anything that currently in PM relies on being frame perfect to get the Hitbox or WD/DJ out. Funny enough, the physics delay kills your last frame of leniency for WD/DJ anyways.
You input a DJ/AD the frame before landing in Melee: the next frame you perform it
You input a DJ/AD the frame before landing in PM: you land. You even hear the sound for it, but the game says nope you're landed and that's that. DJ doesn't work because your inertia wasn't changed the very next frame, and AD because w/e it chose to kill it if you landed.

Credit to @Frakture on some of this stuff by the way.

 

[Deleted member]

everything ive always wanted

 

[Blank Mauser]

uhh basically fox is just EZmode compared to melee so people nair spam a lot more, and like you can pivot grab and kill them but youre going to mess up and get killed right back sometimes

its just a different game man, you can draw parallels but its just not the same in a lot of ways

Its not like Marth didn't get stuff either. Dair's landing lag reduction makes a huge difference, more lenient dash dances in PM, DACUS and boost pivot grab. Marth is ezmode too now, and has a much easier time grabbing Fox with the shine nerf.

I can agree with stages though. Hell I've been cp'ing Marth to Norfair anywhere its legal, and I think the platforms are pretty awful for him.

 

[pkblaze]

As for the idea that Marth has to ban Dreamland, Norfair, Yoshi's Brawl and DP... lol what kind of godawful stage pool is your scene running? Just because certain stages are viable in a vacuum, doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them all legal at the same time.

Nobody is gonna run all 4. Most regions probs have 2 or 3. Mine doesn't run DP anymore cuz of laser camping w/ fox lol.

But you basically either have a small stagelist or you're unable to ban all 3 big stages.

 

[Player -0]

Calling dash dancing more lenient is kinda eh. The mechanics of how dashing works is different in P:M than Melee but unless it's explained how "it's more lenient" then I'm not taking that.

Fox gets a lot more off of easier tech skill than Marth does.

 

[Binary Clone]

Calling dash dancing more lenient is kinda eh. The mechanics of how dashing works is different in P:M than Melee but unless it's explained how "it's more lenient" then I'm not taking that.

Fox gets a lot more off of easier tech skill than Marth does.

Dash dancing is much easier in PM than in Melee. The windows for dash dance timings is just much wider. I'm not really sure where the ambiguity is; I thought most people were aware of this. It's incredibly easy to tell this just by picking up Melee Falcon and dashdancing a while and then picking up PM Falcon and dashdancing a while.

 

[Player -0]

I'd like to see some frame data/mechanic explanation. I played Melee Falcon and I usually play solely P:M and there was a difference I put off to being the difference in how dashing works.

 

[Binary Clone]

Yeah, I don't think there's any major frame data available specifically on that type of difference right now.

 

[GP&B]

I didn't think there was any explicit changes in dash lengths to make DD-ing easier, just that the changes in dash inputs between Melee and Brawl/PM make dashing easier to execute (IIRC, Melee requires a Smash input and Brawl/PM bases it on how far the stick is moved when the stick is displaced out of neutral).

 

[Player -0]

That's what I thought. Would still like a confirmation from someone like @ Strong Badam just in case lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

The main difference in dashing mechanics is that dashing backwards has a 2 frame window in PM and a 1 frame window in Melee. Dashing forward is a 2 frame window in Melee. Otherwise, yeah the sensitivity of how far you have to press the stick is a lil different. Going back to Melee feels terrible to many PM converts because of this, including me. Moving feels like a chore in that game. That doesn't actually change how good characters are in neutral or make characters better/worse, though. Just how the game feels.

 

[Player -0]

The main difference in dashing mechanics is that dashing backwards has a 2 frame window in PM and a 1 frame window in Melee. Dashing forward is a 2 frame window in Melee.

What do you mean by this?

Edit - Do you mean people can dash backwards for 2 frames? That doesn't sound right.

 

[Strong Badam]

Example: Do a move whose first actionable frame afterward is frame 20. You can press dash as early as frame 19 if you're dashing forward and the game will still read the dash and have it occur frame 20, but only as early as frame 20 if dashing backwards.
At least that's my understanding of how it works in Melee.

 

[Player -0]

So there's a 1 frame less buffering time for dashing back vs. forward in Melee?

 

[Magus420]

No. The main difference is that to dash behind you when not currently in the dash action (not DDing already) Melee requires you to move the stick from neutral to past the dashing threshold (0.80) in a single frame, or else you get stuck in a slow turning animation for 5-9 frames (depends on character) before you actually start the dash behind you. If you press it in 1 frame the turn lasts for 1 frame instead. It's really stupid and if your controller is responsive near the neutral position or has more resistance than looser control sticks you need to slam the **** out of it to guarantee the fast turn. Dashing forward, however, you need to go from neutral to past the dash threshold in 2 frames (it allows 1 frame of walk). In PM it allows being in turn for 1 frame before you need to pass the dash threshold to fast turn, so you need to go from neutral to dash threshold in 2 frames.

Another difference is in Melee the re-dash threshold during dash is higher than the run threshold. If you dash, then go to dash again in the same direction you will go into run instead if the stick happens to get read while it's past the run threshold but not yet at the dash threshold. In PM the dash threshold during dash action matches the run threshold (0.62) so that issue doesn't come up.

Threshold to pivot in Melee is also the same as it is to dash during the turn, so to pivot you need to go past that for only 1 frame to turn then be back less than it to not dash. In PM the turn threshold during dash is less than it is to dash out of the pivot so there's a distance you can tilt to trigger the turn but not dash. Makes pivoting tilts a lot more doable.

 

[GP&B]

Ewww, so that's why dashing the opposite direction out of a crouch feels so awful in Melee. I was wondering why I could do it so easily in PM.

 

[Player -0]

Weird.

Sometimes in P:M if I derp hard when autopilot dash dancing vs. CPU's (combopractice lel) I stop in place and pivot back and forth really awkwardly even though I'm mashing back and forth. Is that related?

 

[Boiko]

Gallo is literally proving all tier lists wrong with Pit right now.

 

[GabPR]

Gallo is literally proving all tier lists wrong with Pit right now.

Vids or it didnt happen

 

[Juushichi]

Gallo is really good so I am not that surprised.

Granted, I mean even Ice Climbers and Olimar can win in this game so we don't have to go with EventHubs article titles here.

"Is Pit a weak character? Not if Gallo has something to say about it. Just wait until you see what he does!"

 

[zman804]

Gallo is really good so I am not that surprised.

Granted, I mean even Ice Climbers and Olimar can win in this game so we don't have to go with EventHubs article titles here.

"Is Pit a weak character? Not if Gallo has something to say about it. Just wait until you see what he does!"

"You Won't Believe What These Pikmin Can Do!"

 

[Cubelarooso]

"Incredible weight loss method! Found by a Bowser main!"

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Hey guys. I'm not new to Smash, (been playing casually since Melee) and as of late Smash 4 is what I've been playing competitively. However, after trying Project M, I've really been getting into it. I'm still learning all the cool techniques and movement options, but damn this game is fun. Just the way combos work and stuff. So yeah, I'm trying to pick a main, and I'm just curious as to who's viable and whatnot. Samus seems solid to me. Is she any good?

 

[steelguttey]

"NY Top Tier Player Realizes New Tech With Low Tier Character! Has Science Gone Too Far?"

 

[Frost | Odds]

Friendly reminder that a good player doing well with a bad character does not make the character good. By that logic, Melee Bowser is totally fine.

It's much more probable that

1. Gallo is playing very well, and
2. Gallo's opponents are spectacularly bad at the Pit matchup

than that Pit is actually good.

Anecdote != evidence

 

[Foo]

Link may be getting slept on a bit. I played a really good link yesterday, and he certainly didn't seem OP, but he was doing a lot of stuff I wouldn't have thought of. It seemed like he knew PM link inside and out and there's probably lots of stuff link can do that most people placing him in tier lists don't know about. I could be wrong, though. (though holy !@#$ his grab game is amazing lol. When he manages to grab you, that is).

No. The main difference is that to dash behind you when not currently in the dash action (not DDing already) Melee requires you to move the stick from neutral to past the dashing threshold (0.80) in a single frame, or else you get stuck in a slow turning animation for 5-9 frames (depends on character) before you actually start the dash behind you. If you press it in 1 frame the turn lasts for 1 frame instead. It's really stupid and if your controller is responsive near the neutral position or has more resistance than looser control sticks you need to slam the **** out of it to guarantee the fast turn. Dashing forward, however, you need to go from neutral to past the dash threshold in 2 frames (it allows 1 frame of walk). In PM it allows being in turn for 1 frame before you need to pass the dash threshold to fast turn, so you need to go from neutral to dash threshold in 2 frames.

Another difference is in Melee the re-dash threshold during dash is higher than the run threshold. If you dash, then go to dash again in the same direction you will go into run instead if the stick happens to get read while it's past the run threshold but not yet at the dash threshold. In PM the dash threshold during dash action matches the run threshold (0.62) so that issue doesn't come up.

Threshold to pivot in Melee is also the same as it is to dash during the turn, so to pivot you need to go past that for only 1 frame to turn then be back less than it to not dash. In PM the turn threshold during dash is less than it is to dash out of the pivot so there's a distance you can tilt to trigger the turn but not dash. Makes pivoting tilts a lot more doable.

SO THAT'S WHY I HATE MELEE SO MUCH. I knew the dashing was different and I can't move properly in melee, but now I understand exactly why. Thank you.

@ Frost | Odds idk man, I see most people play non top 8 characters matchups pretty badly overall. Meta is way too fresh and there are way too many characters. Pit is pretty unexplored both ways. Not gonna say it proves that pit isn't so bad, but it's certainly evidence.

 

[Boiko]

lmao, you guys say how Pit is unexplored and then when I say Gallo is putting in work with him, you're like, "No, it's just Gallo being good."

Pit is good. Arrows are good, he has good set ups and combos, solid mobility, a good recovery, decent KO potential, amazing edge guarding. He just gets combed kind of hard. I'm literally there watching it happen. Vids will be up soon.

I also think Pit beats Ike.

 

[Paradoxium]

Friendly reminder that a good player doing well with a bad character does not make the character good.

The problem with this is that people pick and choose when its the player being good, or when its the character being good, and it always matches stupid tier list bias.

 

[Boiko]

The problem with this is that people pick and choose when its the player being good, or when its the character being good, and it always matches stupid tier list bias.

Good players can identify if a player is being strictly outplayed or if a good player is properly utilizing their character's toolkit well, or if the opponent is failing to adapt or what.

That's why tier lists exist in the first place...

If I get completely outplayed by an Olimar player by continually running into smash attacks/fair, it's not Olimar being good, it's me being bad, and any good player can identify that.

However, if there is a deep neutral game, smart exchanges, etc. It's easier to identify a character's overall strengths at a top level.

 

[Idostuff]

So leading up to Aftershock. What characters do we think are going to see a rise/fall in the Tier list from this tournament? Also i there a list of attendants and pools that i can look at?

 

[Frost | Odds]

lmao, you guys say how Pit is unexplored and then when I say Gallo is putting in work with him, you're like, "No, it's just Gallo being good."

Pit is good. Arrows are good, he has good set ups and combos, solid mobility, a good recovery, decent KO potential, amazing edge guarding. He just gets combed kind of hard. I'm literally there watching it happen. Vids will be up soon.

I also think Pit beats Ike.

I think you're confusing "Pit happens to have a good matchup against Ness because of how the arrows work" with "Pit is good".

I've watched a bunch of Gallo's games, and while the work he's putting is impressive, the results are not. While he's not maxing out Pit's potential or anything, his tech is extremely solid including niche stuff like edgecanceled glides and very precise arrows. Despite this, the only times I've seen Gallo win are against worse players, or when the other guy SDs a bunch, or when the MU is extremely favorable (such as against your Ness).

Arrows are good, or at least aerial ones are okay. Pit's 'set ups and combos' are mediocre at best (and mostly only work against terrible DI), as is his mobility - his DD is okay but that jumpsquat isn't doing him any favors and side-b is terrible onstage. His recovery isn't nearly as good as it appears against anyone who understands how to edgeguard against glides, and his lack of decent lingering hitboxes limits his edgeguard ability dramatically.

Good players can identify if a player is being strictly outplayed or if a good player is properly utilizing their character's toolkit well, or if the opponent is failing to adapt or what.

Yeah.

 

[Boiko]

I think you're confusing "Pit happens to have a good matchup against Ness because of how the arrows work" with "Pit is good".

I've watched a bunch of Gallo's games, and while the work he's putting is impressive - the results or not. While he's not maxing out Pit's potential or anything, his tech is extremely solid including niche stuff like edgecanceled glides and very precise arrows. Despite this, the only times I've seen Gallo win are against worse players, or when the other guy SDs a bunch, or when the MU is extremely favorable (such as against your Ness).

Arrows are good, or at least aerial ones are okay. Pit's 'set ups and combos' are mediocre at best (and mostly only work against terrible DI), as is his mobility - his DD is okay but that jumpsquat isn't doing him any favors and side-b is terrible onstage. His recovery isn't nearly as good as it appears against anyone who understands how to edgeguard against glides, and his lack of decent lingering hitboxes limits his edgeguard ability dramatically.


Yeah.

I don't play Ness against him. I play Samus.
Videos from yesterday will be up soon. I don't draw conclusions based on how someone plays against me alone.

 

[Hylian]

Recent winners finals tournament set of my IC's vs Metroids Ike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-l4zL-9BiA

Can't wait for glitch to be gone x.x.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Hey guys. I'm not new to Smash, (been playing casually since Melee) and as of late Smash 4 is what I've been playing competitively. However, after trying Project M, I've really been getting into it. I'm still learning all the cool techniques and movement options, but damn this game is fun. Just the way combos work and stuff. So yeah, I'm trying to pick a main, and I'm just curious as to who's viable and whatnot. Samus seems solid to me. Is she any good?

General talk is that Samus is anywhere from above average to near the top. You could definitely enter a tournament without being too worried about character choice hindering your results.