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Tier List Speculation

trash?

witty/pretty
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pit was dropped by "top players", if by top players you mean "people that needed a character that punishes painlessly", because that's basically how armada and zero played him. his arrows are still amazing enough to make him more than good enough, don't kid y'all on that

coincidentally those top players immediately went to fox permanently after 3.5 FUNNY HOW THAT WORKS OUT
 

ChiePet

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General talk is that Samus is anywhere from above average to near the top. You could definitely enter a tournament without being too worried about character choice hindering your results.
That said, She's Good against Spacies, so besides the skill-gap if there even is one the biggest concern for most isn't as much of one in this instance, so Samus is agree-ably a Great starting point for a dedicated Main.
 

mimgrim

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You know, sometimes it really sucks living in a region dominated by Foxes and Falcos and Falcons and Marths. It feels like such an uphill battle trying to play Tink here when over half the people you are playing against are playing some of your worse MUs. ;-;
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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You know, sometimes it really sucks living in a region dominated by Foxes and Falcos and Falcons and Marths. It feels like such an uphill battle trying to play Tink here when over half the people you are playing against are playing some of your worse MUs. ;-;
That's almost every region. :/
 
D

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You know, sometimes it really sucks living in a region dominated by Foxes and Falcos and Falcons and Marths. It feels like such an uphill battle trying to play Tink here when over half the people you are playing against are playing some of your worse MUs. ;-;
This is why I have a secondary Roy. At the most recent IaB, I went Roy only, but not intentionally. Usually with that type of stuff, people decide before the tourney to go Roy only, but my bracket just had like 80% Melee vets lol
 

CyberZixx

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That is a reason why I stopped trying to main Wario. Too many Marth/Foxes in the world to be playing him like that. I like playing only one character.
 

steelguttey

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..if hes your secondary you shouldnt have to drop him for his bad matchups. thats the point of a secondary lmao
 
D

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I'm fairly certain both link and toon link are awful vs spacies. Toon Link might be slightly better vs them anyways lol
 

Sadface

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This is why I have a secondary Roy. At the most recent IaB, I went Roy only, but not intentionally. Usually with that type of stuff, people decide before the tourney to go Roy only, but my bracket just had like 80% Melee vets lol
How do you feel roy does vs Falcon? I struggle vs my friends falcon but it is reasonably close, I just never can clutch it out.
 

Boiko

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Just to comment on Samus. I think she's one of the hardest characters to play optimally at a top level and do well with. She's not extreme tech heavy in terms of inputs per second, but she requires a firm understanding of spacing and approaching. If you're coming from an experienced melee background, the transition would be easier. But considering how easy it is for so many characters to approach in PM, trying to take the same route with Samus won't work. Just some food for thought.
 

PlateProp

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You know, sometimes it really sucks living in a region dominated by Foxes and Falcos and Falcons and Marths. It feels like such an uphill battle trying to play Tink here when over half the people you are playing against are playing some of your worse MUs. ;-;
Pls.
 

mimgrim

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This is why I have a secondary Roy. At the most recent IaB, I went Roy only, but not intentionally. Usually with that type of stuff, people decide before the tourney to go Roy only, but my bracket just had like 80% Melee vets lol
I'm trying to work on a secondary Falco in friendlies and stuff like. But I just don't feel nearly as comfortable as playing him and just play TL in tourney as a result. Plus I'm still at the skill level where it is better for me to mostly focus on one character rather then 2.
 

CORY

wut
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You know, sometimes it really sucks living in a region dominated by Foxes and Falcos and Falcons and Marths. It feels like such an uphill battle trying to play Tink here when over half the people you are playing against are playing some of your worse MUs. ;-;
Just move to dfw. There's a reason our first big pm tourney was called low tier city.
 

Blazing Ambition

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I'm trying to work on a secondary Falco in friendlies and stuff like. But I just don't feel nearly as comfortable as playing him and just play TL in tourney as a result. Plus I'm still at the skill level where it is better for me to mostly focus on one character rather then 2.
The key is to have a pocket low-tier that nobody knows how to fight, so that way you can win a ton of locals and throw the tier list thread into chaos.
On a slightly more serious note, I respect the effort to branch out and pick up technically demanding characters. It does however, make me feel like a big baby for maining falcon.
 

ChiePet

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Just to comment on Samus. I think she's one of the hardest characters to play optimally at a top level and do well with. She's not extreme tech heavy in terms of inputs per second, but she requires a firm understanding of spacing and approaching. If you're coming from an experienced melee background, the transition would be easier. But considering how easy it is for so many characters to approach in PM, trying to take the same route with Samus won't work. Just some food for thought.
Replace every instance of the name Samus with Peach and you have why my Main has so few active reps ;~;

acknowledging the most recent SINGLE videos posted by VaNz, Bladewise, and SillyKyle; Peach boards are nearly dead no matter how I try and i'm certain its both the High Tech ceiling she has as well as the sheer amount of active Melee Peach players who can't or won't use her in Project M.


BUT, to not just steal your post for my own reasons; I think Samus deserves her High spot and she definitely has walls for people to overcome ,but its like you said put into my own words: Fundamentals = Stonk, or she doesn't Bop spacies as she should. Which is another reason to back up how making her his Main was great. Everyone needs fundamentals or else Tech Skill and MUs and such apply to very little degree. soooo, agreed lol.
 
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agree that roy vs CF seems pretty even

also agree that TL is awful vs fox
 

CyberZixx

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..if hes your secondary you shouldnt have to drop him for his bad matchups. thats the point of a secondary lmao
I only use Wario in doubles now. main reason I main roy over Wario is because he is more fun. Other reasons including Wario's persistence on poor match ups. I feel Wario needs a secondary, but I can Roy everyone well enough.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Can we talk about Ivysaur, of the characters who people think fell off in 3.5, I feel like she has been the least talked about here. I have seen a couple of Machiavelli's gfycat's on reddit, I probably go look at some of his matches, what YouTube channel are most of his videos?

The only thing I gather from the change list that seems relevant:
1. Tether nerfs suck, combined with Dair Nerf, recovery sucks when edgegaurded but goes a long distance for gimps which is nice.
2. Up throw and up b nerfs make killing a lot harder (this was learned from the Ivy boards). Without an easy confirm into kills, kill against strong recoveries is rough. Granted, the up throw change helps on non-fatties and and other characters who aren't easy to get solar beam charges, so there id that.
3. Back air is slightly less free, though it still usually results in a death on the worse recoveries.
4. Fair range sucks but probably isn't a huge deal.

I don't understand what forward/back throw changes do. Nair change is the same deal.
 

Soft Serve

softie
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I think ivy still has a good recovery. From watching mach, I learned she has options to threaten the ledge with seed bomb from really far away, it can be hard to challenge her recovery if she has time to recover from above and set them up.

Ivy is probably still really good, but I don't know what ivys MU spread is like at all.
 

eideeiit

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Ivy gets destroyed by Fox. He can camp her, kill her and I suppose also combo her easily. Keeping him out is a massive chore. She at least can punish and edgeguard him really well, so this is a MU where Fox actually is a glass cannon. But seriously, it's massively in Fox's favor. Ivy's also bad against shield pressure. She gets forced into shielding quite often because she just can't keep him away. Her grab is out frame 14 so the Fox really has to mess up to allow that to work. Her nair OoS is the fastest option and out on frame 9, but it has bad range and Fox can ASDI down and punish it till infinity (really, I didn't bother to test past 220% and it still worked).
 
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Eisen

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Ivy gets destroyed by Fox. He can camp her, kill her and I suppose also combo her easily. Keeping him out is a massive chore. She at least can punish and edgeguard him really well, so this is a MU where Fox actually is a glass cannon. But seriously, it's massively in Fox's favor. Ivy's also bad against shield pressure. She gets forced into shielding quite often because she just can't keep him away. Her grab is out frame 14 so the Fox really has to mess up to allow that to work. Her nair OoS is the fastest option and out on frame 9.
Wow, that's terrible. Frame 9? jfc. You'd think with how little range that move has compared to, say, her bair, it wouldn't come out so slowly.

Also, replace Ivy with a bunch of other characters in this scenario and you have a good portion of what's still wrong with this game.

hint: Fox
please don't hurt me ;_;
 
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Eisen

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Ah. That's not quite so bad then. It wouldn't have surprised me though because ROB kinda has similar problems.
 

TreK

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Yay, people talking about my character :V
4. Fair range sucks but probably isn't a huge deal.
Fair range is actually a pretty huge deal : full hop fair was one of Ivy's standard pokes, and now it only works on tall characters (which is an odd decision, considering the fact that 3.5 was supposed to tone down polarizing traits, but I digress). Its loss is especially felt in the Marth matchup, which was already bad, because it now loses to tipper fsmash, when it didn't before.
@Nominate10 was the 3.02 Ivy with the crispiest fairs in the neutral, I'm sure he'll be able to give you more details
I think ivy still has a good recovery. From watching mach, I learned she has options to threaten the ledge with seed bomb from really far away, it can be hard to challenge her recovery if she has time to recover from above and set them up.
Yeah you can't just hold the ledge for 8 seconds and still get a guaranteed punish, thanksfully. (you can if you pushed her offstage during a juggle after she had spent her dair stall or her double jump, but that's pretty standard)
If she has all of her recovery options, go offstage to make her waste them, and then edgehog. You don't have to aim for the kill, making her waste resources is already enough. But yeah it does require a bit of interactions.
In the ditto I usually do a bair ledge cancel against both the razor leaf and an early reel in, it's pretty difficult to go through. But it's kinda specific to Ivy's bair.
Ivy gets destroyed by Fox. He can camp her, kill her and I suppose also combo her easily. Keeping him out is a massive chore. She at least can punish and edgeguard him really well, so this is a MU where Fox actually is a glass cannon. But seriously, it's massively in Fox's favor. Ivy's also bad against shield pressure. She gets forced into shielding quite often because she just can't keep him away. Her grab is out frame 14 so the Fox really has to mess up to allow that to work. Her nair OoS is the fastest option and out on frame 9, but it has bad range and Fox can ASDI down and punish it till infinity (really, I didn't bother to test past 220% and it still worked).
Fox's shield pressure works regardless of the opponent, so Ivy having a bad oos does not make such a huge difference. It only makes a difference in matchups where the opponent almost has good shield pressure, but not quite. Moves that are -4 to -8 on shield, that wouldn't usually be safe, but are against Ivy.
Ivy actually has a bit of trouble comboing Fox early in his stock, which doesn't really fit the glass cannon thing. Fastfallers have a tendency to provoke tech chase situations, and Ivy's slow ground speed and high startup on her anti-CC moves (except for dash attack) makes her a pretty bad tech chaser. It's possible, eh, but impractical. Usually weight is what determines the effectiveness of CC, but when CCing against multihit moves, what you want is falling speed, and Fox has plenty of that. Once Fox is in the air ****'s free though. Ivy can just uair x10, deal 80%, set up an edgeguard, and heal 20% in the process. And unlike 90% of the cast, she actually gets to edgeguard Fox :V

The rest is pretty accurate imo. The general consensus in 3.5 is that Fox is her current worst matchup, followed pretty closely by Marth. And then there are a bunch of "pretty bad ones" but not bad enough that they'll make me whine on Internet forums :V
There has been some matchup chart sharing going on over the past month or so in the Ivy subforums, if you're interested.
That post, and pretty much the rest of the page
 
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Foo

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Ivy gets destroyed by Fox. He can camp her, kill her and I suppose also combo her easily. Keeping him out is a massive chore. She at least can punish and edgeguard him really well, so this is a MU where Fox actually is a glass cannon. But seriously, it's massively in Fox's favor. Ivy's also bad against shield pressure. She gets forced into shielding quite often because she just can't keep him away. Her grab is out frame 14 so the Fox really has to mess up to allow that to work. Her nair OoS is the fastest option and out on frame 9, but it has bad range and Fox can ASDI down and punish it till infinity (really, I didn't bother to test past 220% and it still worked).
Your character gets destroyed by fox? Welcome to the club. It's called "everyone" and we meet at the bar.

Seriously though, someone should make a fox matchup chart. I want to look at it and laugh and then cry.
 

Boiko

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Anyone else agree that Zelda/Sheik's transform absolutely needs to go?

Considering how viable each character is, and how one could cover the other's bad match ups, I think it's an extremely overpowered tool that should just be gone.

Say your Zelda playing against Captain Falcon, that's a decently hard match up. Just switch to Sheik and now it's in your favor.
Fox counter picks to your Sheik to PS2? Switch to Zelda and chain grab him/combo him to death, switch back to Sheik to tech chase him in the neutral until his damage is high enough that he dies from a kick.

Playing against a very good Sheik at Nebulous, and I'm playing Samus. I have a two stock lead. He switches to Zelda, one of Samus' more difficult match ups, and manages to bring it back. It forces your opponent to adapt to two entirely different characters, both being independently viable, that cover each other's weaknesses way too well.

I mean, how OP would it be if ice mode made Samus a fast faller? It's a similar concept.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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yea it should be removed.

not only that it gives shiek a really good option for recovering (changing to zelda then up-bing)
 

Chevy

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Anyone else agree that Zelda/Sheik's transform absolutely needs to go?

Considering how viable each character is, and how one could cover the other's bad match ups, I think it's an extremely overpowered tool that should just be gone.

Say your Zelda playing against Captain Falcon, that's a decently hard match up. Just switch to Sheik and now it's in your favor.
Fox counter picks to your Sheik to PS2? Switch to Zelda and chain grab him/combo him to death, switch back to Sheik to tech chase him in the neutral until his damage is high enough that he dies from a kick.

Playing against a very good Sheik at Nebulous, and I'm playing Samus. I have a two stock lead. He switches to Zelda, one of Samus' more difficult match ups, and manages to bring it back. It forces your opponent to adapt to two entirely different characters, both being independently viable, that cover each other's weaknesses way too well.

I mean, how OP would it be if ice mode made Samus a fast faller? It's a similar concept.
It's funny I actually like playing against Shielda, because when she switches characters, I switch beams. Fire for Shiek, Ice for Zelda.
 

eideeiit

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I think if PMDT is to remove it, it has to happen very soon. Changing hasn't been a part of Sheik's and Zelda's identities in Melee for obvious reasons. Now the new PM centric Sheiks and Zeldas are making it a part of their playstyles and as a consequence the characters' identities. Soon taking it out will be like removing bananas from Diddy or shines from the spacies.

Personally I wouldn't really mind either way, to be honest.

It forces your opponent to adapt to two entirely different characters, both being independently viable, that cover each other's weaknesses way too well.
I find this argument a tad stupid. You, the one playing against the Sheilda, should still know both MUs if you wish to be a good player. In a good match you're always adapting to different playstyles as long as your opponent is good and doesn't play a one dimensional character. Naturally I'll take Fox as my example: He's rushdowning you. He's camping you. He can switch between each style without the obvious transformation that a Sheilda has to do. Naturally Fox as a character doesn't change, but I'd say not having to telegraph what you're going for from miles away is a lot better than telegraphing and getting some changes to your weight as it happens. Your opponent also has to adapt when he switches. He has no idea what option you're likely to choose against an airborne Zelda as opposed to an airborne Sheik, for example. Or if he does, so should you.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that Sheilda is just one more match-up to learn. It consists of knowing how to fight a Sheik, how to fight a Zelda and the ability of switching between the two very quickly.

Whether the mechanic makes the duo OP is a completely other matter. No character in a game as large, deep, complex and intricate as PM deserves to have no bad MUs. If Sheilda goes against this, something should be done.

(Pls no one mention the one that we all know breaks that last rule.)
 

Boiko

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It's funny I actually like playing against Shielda, because when she switches characters, I switch beams. Fire for Shiek, Ice for Zelda.
You crazy. I haaate the Zelda MU as Samus, even with ice mode. ;(

I find this argument a tad stupid. You, the one playing against the Sheilda, should still know both MUs if you wish to be a good player. In a good match you're always adapting to different playstyles as long as your opponent is good and doesn't play a one dimensional character. Naturally I'll take Fox as my example: He's rushdowning you. He's camping you. He can switch between each style without the obvious transformation that a Sheilda has to do. Naturally Fox as a character doesn't change, but I'd say not having to telegraph what you're going for from miles away is a lot better than telegraphing and getting some changes to your weight as it happens. Your opponent also has to adapt when he switches. He has no idea what option you're likely to choose against an airborne Zelda as opposed to an airborne Sheik, for example. Or if he does, so should you.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that Sheilda is just one more match-up to learn. It consists of knowing how to fight a Sheik, how to fight a Zelda and the ability of switching between the two very quickly.

Whether the mechanic makes the duo OP is a completely other matter. No character in a game as large, deep, complex and intricate as PM deserves to have no bad MUs. If Sheilda goes against this, something should be done.

(Pls no one mention the one that we all know breaks that last rule.)
Regardless of HOW Fox is playing, he's still punished the same way, still has the same moves, still has the same weight, still has the same recovery, etc. Zelda and Sheik are ENTIRELY different characters. I should have phrased it better, you're not adapting to the character, you're adapting to the player.

Here's a scenario:
You're playing against a competent Sheik, you start to learn their habits, approaches, etc. You beginning to punish decently well, and have an overall solid neutral game. Well, your opponent did the same thing, they learned your play style, they adapted to your habits, etc. So now, they know your habits, how you respond to pressure, how you attempt to control the pace, and they switch. Now they're playing an entirely different character. They already know what your habits are, and good luck switching that up on the fly just because they're playing a different character. They don't need to relearn how you play your character halfway through, but you do.

And you can make the argument, "Well, you can play against Zelda a different way than you play against Sheik to throw them off" similar to the Fox playing rush down versus the Fox playing campy. But it doesn't change the fact that you're still playing the same character against something entirely different, you can only vary your play style so much, and some characters are quite a bit more one dimensional than Fox, so this doesn't always work. And it extends even farther because Zelda can play campy or aggressive and so can Sheik. You can theoretically play against four different play styles in one match.

Sheilda does have less than favorable match ups, sure...Fox, maybe Wolf. But that's probably about it.
 

eideeiit

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I'd say because you want to take advantage of your opponent not knowing the Zelda MU or failing to adapt to you switching (=not knowing the Sheilda MU)
 
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