Foo
Smash Lord
Because not every gameplay issue is a balance issue.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
JOE!
Smash Hero
The only cool thing about Sheilda is that Down B is a recovery boost for shiek, and down B auto-detonates Dins for Zelda.
Both of those things could be done with a new Down B like with the PT pokemon
Both of those things could be done with a new Down B like with the PT pokemon
Rizner
Smash Ace
I would not like that to be removed. Keep mastery of both being beneficial - it's not super necessary for balance (realistically, how many Zelda Sheiks do you see placing well against competent opponents) and the design makes sense and isn't something crazy that they randomly decided (like dins)
Eisen
Smash Ace
I don't think it's ever been an "issue" but is one of those things that could stand to be removed for the sake of there being less "dumb" things in the game.
I mean, imagine how hard people would cry if Lucas could transform into Ness on the fly mid-match. Lucas himself is already extremely viable, but switching to Ness could either give the opponent an MU they don't know as well, or counter a counterpick that was intended for Lucas, theoretically.
Again, it's not something OP, but I do find it stupid how Zelda/Sheik mains complain about how bad transform is when they should be grateful it's there at all. Though, I do understand how some people only want to play one or the other, and I can understand how transform limits moves that Zelda/Sheik has.
Sheik already has enough tools so I don't think she'd need something crazy good like Smash 4's bouncing fish, but Zelda could probably use something besides "lol character psyche".
I mean, imagine how hard people would cry if Lucas could transform into Ness on the fly mid-match. Lucas himself is already extremely viable, but switching to Ness could either give the opponent an MU they don't know as well, or counter a counterpick that was intended for Lucas, theoretically.
Again, it's not something OP, but I do find it stupid how Zelda/Sheik mains complain about how bad transform is when they should be grateful it's there at all. Though, I do understand how some people only want to play one or the other, and I can understand how transform limits moves that Zelda/Sheik has.
Sheik already has enough tools so I don't think she'd need something crazy good like Smash 4's bouncing fish, but Zelda could probably use something besides "lol character psyche".
JOE!
Smash Hero
I always thought a sort of "vanish in place" could be neat as a Sheik down B. Some start up, "poof" hitbox, but then she can act with the bit of smoke obscuring what she does.
Zelda could have a down B that manually detonates a din's mine, or have Down and Side B be used in tangent with Dins for different functions almost like magical Sanic:
Side or Down B can summon a Din's. (B) again will place a din's, Side B will boomerang it back to you, while Down B will make it explode and delete it. Or somethng
Zelda could have a down B that manually detonates a din's mine, or have Down and Side B be used in tangent with Dins for different functions almost like magical Sanic:
Side or Down B can summon a Din's. (B) again will place a din's, Side B will boomerang it back to you, while Down B will make it explode and delete it. Or somethng
Quite a few, actually. We were discussing it at Nebulous and how when people start to realize the potential that character combination has, how broken it will really be. Hell, even in melee, Ice would switch to Zelda to kill Puff at medium percentages. Now, imagine you can switch to another extremely viable character that can counter certain MU's better? It's way too good of a mechanic.
@~Dad~ Soooo many instances.
@
JOE!
Yeah, I think if they remove transform entirely, something unique for Sheik could be a boost jump similar to ZSS, but I'd say provide A LOT less distance. Zelda could just detonate Din's, but I'm sure there's something different that could be added.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Down B for sheik could be a "vanish jump" without the vanish part? Sort of a 3rd jump with a hair of invuln and a bit later IASA/ledgegrab
ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
-slaps buzzer- WHAT IS ADVANTAGE THROUGH UNPOPULARITY!!
I won, right?
really though, imo i think it has to do with how prevelant sheiks been for years and the Zelda MU even if in their favor still has to be played with more info behind it than the melee sheik scenario. BUT I COULD BE WRONG. Sorry Dad.
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UGHH I was about to post that; stupid afk interruptions.. lol
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Rizner
Smash Ace
It's something Zhime uses well and very few people are making waves with it. How far in bracket do these people get in larger tournaments? Who are they beating? It sounds good in theory, but I wouldn't say it's broken or overpowered by any meansQuite a few, actually. We were discussing it at Nebulous and how when people start to realize the potential that character combination has, how broken it will really be. Hell, even in melee, Ice would switch to Zelda to kill Puff at medium percentages. Now, imagine you can switch to another extremely viable character that can counter certain MU's better? It's way too good of a mechanic.
@~Dad~ Soooo many instances.
@
The issue there is it's two different people - it doesn't make sense. Zelda and sheik are the same, so it's not breaking character or causing anything ridiculous. The argument could be samus vs zss, but it comes down to character identity and design. Zelda turning into sheik makes sense imo
GabPR
Smash Lord
When you think about it... Zelda does benefit a lot to the switch for egeguarding, since she does not seem to have any sureway kill offstage besides maybe a dins setup. Maybe zeldas should incorporate that more into their game for free stocks with needles or long lasting aerials sheik offers.
Rizner
Smash Ace
Zelda can edge guard - if you have time to transform and get out there, you have time to disrupt with dins or something else. Nair is decent for a hitbox (tethers) and you can usually work around those longer recoveries
GabPR
Smash Lord
Sheik edge guards are easier, more reliable and effective than zeldas. she is known for her gimp game after all.
Rizner
Smash Ace
Right, but that's because she can quickly get there. It takes some time to switch over
JOE!
Smash Hero
At that point it is sheik, not zelda, netting those advantages. Why not stay sheik if its better for the MU?
That's way too one dimensional of a way to think about it. If you kick someone across the stage, you have plenty of time to transform and then threaten them at the ledge with Sheik, who has significantly more potent edge guarding than Zelda. Alternatively, you can transform into Sheik a bit earlier in the set, hit them off stage, and then edge guard.
As far as players using it optimally. Give it a bit more time. Face, the Zelda player that 2-0'd Poob at Shots Fired uses it. VaNz has an amazing Zelda and Sheik, now he can incorporate them both, Malachi is a high level Sheik and has an extremely good Zelda, he was actually the one who I was primarily talking to about the mechanic being way too strong, and you already mentioned Zhime.
You literally have two characters at once. You can almost completely negate the effectiveness of counter picking against the entire cast besides absolute top tiers, and even then, its effectiveness is still diminished.
@
JOE!
Here's an example. Say you're playing against a Fox on Smashville. As Zelda, you have chain grabs and up smash chains, all which can convert into kicks or other good moves. So, say you get Fox up to 115%, where you don't have as many follow ups anymore, or even if you do, they're off of grabs, and Fox is kind of camping you out a bit. So you switch to Sheik. Charge up some needles, threaten his space with needles and immediate fairs, you're overall punish game is weaker, but your ability to approach and seal the stock is enhanced. This is sort of the opposite in a case like Ness, where Zelda has an easier time killing with spacing her kicks, and can get out of combos at high percentages, but at lower percentages, Sheik can rack up damage much more quickly.
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GabPR
Smash Lord
Zeldas has hard hitting moves that usually sends the opponents rather far. Thanks to that she would have no problem switching to sheik in the meantime.
I think the theoretically worse case scenario for Sheilda being op is when it comes to character counter picks. Lets just say, and this is completely made up, that 3 years from now as the meta develops, it is discovered that Sonic has a very good MU against Zelda, and a very bad one against Sheik. Game one, double blind char pick, I chose Zelda and my opponent picks Sonic. Now if Zelda was any other character, this would be a very favorable situation for the Sonic player. However, since Zelda can just change into Sheik at the very beginning of the match, the MU swings to the Sheilda players favor.
This is obviously theoretical, and maybe won't happen, but if the meta develops to the point where Sheik and Zelda perfectly, or even partially, cover each others bad MU's, then Sheilda has a huge advantage over other players who have a traditional main/secondary combo.
This is obviously theoretical, and maybe won't happen, but if the meta develops to the point where Sheik and Zelda perfectly, or even partially, cover each others bad MU's, then Sheilda has a huge advantage over other players who have a traditional main/secondary combo.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
It's making me laugh how this (racking up damage with one, killing with the other) was supposed to be how Sheik and Zelda played in Melee by Sakurai. PMDT does what he was aiming for without even trying to. lol
Eisen
Smash Ace
Personally I feel like if that's the design choice, then the character who racks up damage should have a bit of trouble killing, and vice-versa. It's not like playing both characters is required at this point to win, so why are they one character?
eideeiit
Smash Ace
I'm not trying to make a point one way or the other. Just threw out something I found funny. Whether it really is that or my sense of humor just sucks is a whole another matter.
Eisen
Smash Ace
Oh I know you weren't making a point, I just thought of that as like a middle ground kinda thing for the people who think Sheilda should be separated versus the people who want to be able to play both. Whether or not PMDT goes that direction is up to them.
Rizner
Smash Ace
I can understand the one dimensional beginning argument thing. Makes sense.That's way too one dimensional of a way to think about it. If you kick someone across the stage, you have plenty of time to transform and then threaten them at the ledge with Sheik, who has significantly more potent edge guarding than Zelda. Alternatively, you can transform into Sheik a bit earlier in the set, hit them off stage, and then edge guard.
As far as players using it optimally. Give it a bit more time. Face, the Zelda player that 2-0'd Poob at Shots Fired uses it. VaNz has an amazing Zelda and Sheik, now he can incorporate them both, Malachi is a high level Sheik and has an extremely good Zelda, he was actually the one who I was primarily talking to about the mechanic being way too strong, and you already mentioned Zhime.
You literally have two characters at once. You can almost completely negate the effectiveness of counter picking against the entire cast besides absolute top tiers, and even then, its effectiveness is still diminished.
@
But for those you've listed, what about their success makes it too strong? Is that giving them their success in your eyes?
And your last arguments seem valid to me, but I don't see that as overpowered. It's a tool she has to negate some matchups, yes. It's something only she has, yes. But I guess I just don't see it as game breaking as you do.
TBH i don't see it as any different to Samus having 2 beams.
Except there are more differences between skeik/zelda than there are between the beams.
and also You cant select Ice beam at start up (plz PMDT)
Except there are more differences between skeik/zelda than there are between the beams.
and also You cant select Ice beam at start up (plz PMDT)
Eisen
Smash Ace
Also the point isn't to stop things that are too good after it's proven they're too good, but to nip it in the bud before that happens based on reasonable character design.
I mean, let's face it, Lucas was hardly winning tournaments compared to Melee characters when he got nerfed. Yet it was obvious that what he was capable of once people got a hold of him was toxic to the game. Again, the point is to design the game intelligently before it breaks, not to trial-and-error every single issue.
I mean, let's face it, Lucas was hardly winning tournaments compared to Melee characters when he got nerfed. Yet it was obvious that what he was capable of once people got a hold of him was toxic to the game. Again, the point is to design the game intelligently before it breaks, not to trial-and-error every single issue.
Eisen
Smash Ace
Zelda vs Sheik:
- Fall speed differences
- Weight differences
- hurtbox differences
- All aerials re different
- All specials except down B are different
- completely different play styles
Ice mode vs Fire mode:
- slightly different play style--plays mostly the same but kills differently and has some different tools to make up for what she usually lacks
- only 5 moves work slightly differently (missile, downtilt, upsmash, fsmash, fair)
- Missile still zones/used with missile cancel, but is just slower/weaker/goes further in homing missile mode
- up smash still kills, just a bit more vertical range, but less horizontal range/less time with hitboxes than fire upsmash
- ice fsmash is weaker but has a chance to freeze at proper percentages
- ice fair kills instead of being FAIRly (hah) useless
- ice dtilt is... not as good.
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Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
Also, transform isn't all that punishable. Startup isn't that huge, endlag is basically nonexistent, and between those you can't get hit. Not because you're intangible, but because you literally don't even exist. The game unloads one character and loads in the other.
Which also means that if you do try to punish the tiny endlag, you can't do it consistently, because the time transform takes is dependent on the method of loading PM.
Having a move that changes even a little depending on boot method just strikes me as weird.
Which also means that if you do try to punish the tiny endlag, you can't do it consistently, because the time transform takes is dependent on the method of loading PM.
Having a move that changes even a little depending on boot method just strikes me as weird.
Eisen
Smash Ace
Wait, seriously? that's a thing? That may be why Sheilda randomly desyncs me on wifi or freezes. I load through Neogamma, I have an ISO of Brawl and the PM codes on an SD card.
I've always found transform fairly punishable in my builds, but I guess that's not universal?? My best advice to punish transform is projectiles... if you have them. Or, meaty multi-hit moves (Lucas/Ivy Nair, Ness fair, etc).
Iirc the trasformations itself has no endlag. I don't know how it varies by load method, but I do know having alt costumes on the characters causes it too take longer.
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
Startup is 50ish frames for Zelda -> Sheik and ~37 for Sheik -> Zelda, and endlag is about 5 frames. But because the character model is obscured during those frames, it's very insubstantial. Plus, five frames is already very insubstantial.
It's definitely punishable by nice multihit moves, but even then because of the variance in transform time, many situations it isn't a guarantee by any means.
But I guess you shouldn't really be using transform when it's possible you could be hit anytime soon... Eh, still.
It's definitely punishable by nice multihit moves, but even then because of the variance in transform time, many situations it isn't a guarantee by any means.
But I guess you shouldn't really be using transform when it's possible you could be hit anytime soon... Eh, still.
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Exactly =)
Pretty much the same in theory, you can beam swap for a better matchup vs some characters (i go ice vs floaties)
Except, as i said, there are more things in the Zelda/Sheik Differences column.
Couple of corrections in the samus stuff though:
- Fire UpSmash doesnt really have that much kill potential anymore. And it is Super easily SDI'd out of.
- Ice FSmash Freezes on the second hit, not % based.
Rizner
Smash Ace
Iirc, the booting method was changed in the way it happened for a much less variant transformation. Still isn't perfect, but nowhere close to brawl. Someone else please verify with more details?
Also I think generally I'm able to punish transforms to sheik, but have a hard time to Zelda because nayru
Eisen
Smash Ace
I don't see how 5 moves being different on a character that don't change their base playstyle is anything like a move that gives you an entirely different character. It's literally like Samus switching to ZSS whenever she wants. It may be "the same" in some minor way, but the point I'm making is that the difference is so significant between those examples that it's not even worth comparing them, because Sheilda is a playstyle change that also completely changes how the opponent fights, whereas Samus beam change just lets Samus do things like kill from different positions or have a little more reach.
Meh, I kill with fire upsmash all the time, but I won't say it's great.
Yeah, I know it's the second hit of ice fsmash, but spacing and %s can be said to have something to do with it. You can't freeze Bowser with the second hit if he's at 130% and you hit with the first hit. That's all I was getting at. Trust me, I play Samus too. May not know everything, but I'm not that ill-informed about her.
I just z drop a banana and then react to the free trip. its not that hard to punish tbh, even if you cant punish directly if gives you forever to take whatever stage positioning you want.
also I love how the thread cycled back from fox+assorted talk about whoever just won, back to shielda. Nothing has changed much since SmashMods lol
Eisen
Smash Ace
Softie keepin' it real.
No but really, I could talk about Fox all day, but I think after many people trying many times to convince people more has to change about him, we've kinda grown tired. Fox probably has the highest complaints:actual changes ratio in the game.
More stuff I could bring up from personal experience:
- Bowser needs to be able to slowly walk with firebreath for a little extra reach on the cancel
- Allow Bowser's crawl to do minor damage below him so it's actually used for stuff
- As an aesthetic change, please give Bowser his old shoulder bash side-B animation for the forward throw. The new one where his head inexplicably detaches itself from the rest of Bowser's body bothers me.
- ROB needs to be better period
- Lucas' fair flub is ridiculously prominent. Landing the sweetspot on his fair is literally harder than landing a Falcon knee sweetspot because of it. Not only is the hitbox much smaller than knee, but the flub overtakes some of the tip box. Not to mention the flub is actually GOOD for Lucas because it's a low-launching hit that actually leads into more jank combos than he should be allowed to have.
- Fox's recovery needs to actually be somewhat risky or his power needs to be decreased
- Fox and Falco both need laser limits
- Give Samus a more aesthetically pleasing upthrow animation already, that **** looks ugly
There's honestly not a lot of complaints I have about this build so far because I've only faced a set amount of characters since 3.5, though I do feel there's been significant improvement since 3.02. Just a few things left that make me go "lol what".
Also this is random as all getout but what if Game and Watch could switch between Odd and Even numbers on Judge with one of his ringing taunts in exchange for slightly nerfing judge-9? Any Game and Watches (or others) care to chime in on that idea?
Edit: Also, put less endlag on certain judges/all judges?-- to allow for combos with it-- and have + or - above GW instead of * or ** to indicate whether the next number will be larger or smaller than the one being used. (1 would always display + and 9 would always display -).
Idk, I just have urges to play Game and Watch but then resist because I'm pretty sure he's bad. I feel like his judges need to be more consistent and trackable. I could see Judge 5 (electric) launching up and allowing for up B/Aeial/jump into judge again combos, 1 giving him the damage still, 9 being a kill move, 7 giving the opponent some damage and taking some from GW, 3 launching them backwards/to the ground to set up for tech chases, etc. 6 would be Even's kill move, 8 would be the combo move, 2 would be the "bad" move (keep as is?), and 4 would be another setup move. -shrug-
No but really, I could talk about Fox all day, but I think after many people trying many times to convince people more has to change about him, we've kinda grown tired. Fox probably has the highest complaints:actual changes ratio in the game.
More stuff I could bring up from personal experience:
- Bowser needs to be able to slowly walk with firebreath for a little extra reach on the cancel
- Allow Bowser's crawl to do minor damage below him so it's actually used for stuff
- As an aesthetic change, please give Bowser his old shoulder bash side-B animation for the forward throw. The new one where his head inexplicably detaches itself from the rest of Bowser's body bothers me.
- ROB needs to be better period
- Lucas' fair flub is ridiculously prominent. Landing the sweetspot on his fair is literally harder than landing a Falcon knee sweetspot because of it. Not only is the hitbox much smaller than knee, but the flub overtakes some of the tip box. Not to mention the flub is actually GOOD for Lucas because it's a low-launching hit that actually leads into more jank combos than he should be allowed to have.
- Fox's recovery needs to actually be somewhat risky or his power needs to be decreased
- Fox and Falco both need laser limits
- Give Samus a more aesthetically pleasing upthrow animation already, that **** looks ugly
There's honestly not a lot of complaints I have about this build so far because I've only faced a set amount of characters since 3.5, though I do feel there's been significant improvement since 3.02. Just a few things left that make me go "lol what".
Also this is random as all getout but what if Game and Watch could switch between Odd and Even numbers on Judge with one of his ringing taunts in exchange for slightly nerfing judge-9? Any Game and Watches (or others) care to chime in on that idea?
Edit: Also, put less endlag on certain judges/all judges?-- to allow for combos with it-- and have + or - above GW instead of * or ** to indicate whether the next number will be larger or smaller than the one being used. (1 would always display + and 9 would always display -).
Idk, I just have urges to play Game and Watch but then resist because I'm pretty sure he's bad. I feel like his judges need to be more consistent and trackable. I could see Judge 5 (electric) launching up and allowing for up B/Aeial/jump into judge again combos, 1 giving him the damage still, 9 being a kill move, 7 giving the opponent some damage and taking some from GW, 3 launching them backwards/to the ground to set up for tech chases, etc. 6 would be Even's kill move, 8 would be the combo move, 2 would be the "bad" move (keep as is?), and 4 would be another setup move. -shrug-
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D
Deleted member
Guest
You're dead to me.
Rob does not need buffs, he's fine, if not a little centralized on dthrow.
and Knee doesn't have a sweetspot, its a weak/strong hit, sex kick. Id agree though that the precision to land some of lucas's good hitboxes are pretty high, but i dont think thats a bad thing.
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Eisen
Smash Ace
He's better than 3.02 and I've had some success with him. Maybe Smash 4 ROB has spoiled me.
Then its still a tech chase and I have a huge time window to react to things. the banana covers one roll direction for me (away if I set up the banana right) so all I have to cover is tech in place and roll in and miss tech get up (attack), all which you can cover by shielding then grab or wd OoS on reaction. Its not a situation that comes up often, but its also a situation thats VERY similar to regular diddy tech chases so its not hard or specific.
Trips are literally just forced knockdowns that have a 12 or so frame forced animation before you can tech (which is mostly invincible still). If bananas just forced a knock down on grounded opponents instead of trip people would complain just as much lol.
*Imagines Ice Dtilt force-tripping*
I mean, it makes as much sense as a banana.
I mean, it makes as much sense as a banana.