Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

which is already less than every characters up-b except bowser, DK?, and G&W

 

[Boiko]

which is already less than every characters up-b except bowser, DK?, and G&W

Ness is equal, but w/e, same ****.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

I'm just pointing out that it's a big difference in punishability compared to the absurdity of firefox's 6 frames of landing lag.

 

[PlateProp]

i have a harder time edge guarding wolf than fox/falco but thats probably because im still not used to it. huge lack of good wolf players.

Play moar marth

 

[Deleted member]

S Tier

1. 2. 3. 4.

A+ Tier

5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15.

GnW being > Roy makes me spit milk out of my nose continually.

Is this seriously neons list? Theres a lot wrong here outside of gnw being above Roy.

 

[steelguttey]

neon's tier list is 100% produced by arizona, not neon honestly.

az has people who plays those characters, simple as dat

 

[Zigludo]

neon's tier list is 100% produced by arizona, not neon honestly.

az has people who plays those characters, simple as dat

then why is Wolf on top and where's the Pikachu? lol

no seriously though. why is Wolf on top?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

then why is Wolf on top and where's the Pikachu? lol

no seriously though. why is Wolf on top?

cuz neon plays wolf

 

[Soft Serve]

neon's tier list is 100% produced by arizona, not neon honestly.

az has people who plays those characters, simple as dat

Not really
Our PR is spacies, marths, a pika a DDD,a Lucas, a ZSS, a zard/shiek, a wario, and a Link (with Silly Kyles peach but he was too inactive to be PR). I can see that the bias for Link being good, but pretty sure the GnW being so high is just because neon thinks he is broken


Wolf is on top because wolf is busted as ****

 

[Zigludo]

Wolf is on top because wolf is busted as ****

maybe I'm just a noob, but I don't see what Wolf does that Falco doesn't do better. besides falling

 

[Narpas_sword]

maybe I'm just a noob, but I don't see what Wolf does that Falco doesn't do better. besides falling

I don't remember wolf ever having a problem with his G-Diffuser for one.

 

[Deleted member]

maybe I'm just a noob, but I don't see what Wolf does that Falco doesn't do better. besides falling

Wolfs initial dash is the best in the game, giving him an amazing dash dance. His overall mobility is very strong, which means that he is overall less polarizing in matchups. Falco has either very strong, or very weak matchups in 3.5 due to new stages and pm characters. This makes Falco significantly more vulnerable to counter picking and lowers his viability from top to arguably high tier.

 

[Zigludo]

I don't remember wolf ever having a problem with his G-Diffuser for one.

Oh, gee, I've been saved by Fox. How swell.

 

[zman804]

neon's tier list is 100% produced by arizona, not neon honestly.

az has people who plays those characters, simple as dat

Not really. We don't have any really good Tinks, Mewtwo's, GnW or Diddy's. And our best Peach (aka the BEST Peach) has been super inactive recently. Neon just sees the theory future or something, idk.

 

[Player -0]

Can someone explain dash speed vs. run speed? If there's a character with a faster dash but the second character has a faster run then the character with a faster dash moves faster while dashing?

 

[Deleted member]

Not really. We don't have any really good Tinks, Mewtwo's, GnW or Diddy's. And our best Peach (aka the BEST Peach) has been super inactive recently. Neon just sees the theory future or something, idk.

Afaik SS plays toon link now. Although, he still has some things to learn.

Can someone explain dash speed vs. run speed? If there's a character with a faster dash but the second character has a faster run then the character with a faster dash moves faster while dashing?

Initial dash is how you are at the beginning of your run, run speed is how fast you are after youve fully accelerated.

Im on my phone so I cant get you exact numbers, but sonics initial dash is like 2.3 and his run is 4. If his initial dash was 4 then we would all main sonic


Edit: **** i double posted because phone johns

 

[GP&B]

Can someone explain dash speed vs. run speed? If there's a character with a faster dash but the second character has a faster run then the character with a faster dash moves faster while dashing?

Dash is your initial movement while run is the state you enter after being in dash long enough. A fast dash and long dash period results in a better dash dance. This is also how Sonic can have a nerfed dash dance while still having the fastest run speed in the game.

EDIT: Dammit DMG-
wait what the hell.

The important point though is

If his initial dash was 4 then we would all main sonic

It's also good to mention that run speed is the maximum speed a character gets out of a run, but achieving that is based off the character's acceleration. Again, this is how Sonic's run isn't as abusively overwhelming as it could get.

 

[Player -0]

So typically dash is slower than run speed because it's the character "accelerating." Okay.

I know the difference between dash and run, just wasn't sure about the speed thingy.

 

[Ogopogo]

Wolfs initial dash is the best in the game, giving him an amazing dash dance. His overall mobility is very strong, which means that he is overall less polarizing in matchups. Falco has either very strong, or very weak matchups in 3.5 due to new stages and pm characters. This makes Falco significantly more vulnerable to counter picking and lowers his viability from top to arguably high tier.

Does Falco really have any "very weak" matchups though? He's certainly not as dominant as he was in malaysia but he's still very strong. I also can't off the top of my head think of any stages where "yeah I'll just go here and Falco has no chance." (thats prob just cus I suck tho)

 

[Deleted member]

Does Falco really have any "very weak" matchups though? He's certainly not as dominant as he was in malaysia but he's still very strong. I also can't off the top of my head think of any stages where "yeah I'll just go here and Falco has no chance."

Falco does have some fairly difficult matchups, at least relative to fox/wolf. Wolfs only real bad mu is fox, and fox is fox

Falco suffers from larger stages + laser % nerf, so characters like puff, peach, samus, mario, etc can deal with him.

 

[GP&B]

So typically dash is slower than run speed because it's the character "accelerating." Okay.

I know the difference between dash and run, just wasn't sure about the speed thingy.

Typically yes, but not quite there (actually I'm looking at Link's attributes and he has a faster dash than run, probably not the only case either). Dashing has an initial velocity and running itself has an initial velocity. It then takes the acceleration stat into the equation when reaching max run speed (which I can't find for some reason). So Link will dash with a speed of 1.5 but will start out his run at 1.35 and then accelerate up to his max run speed.

Would really like some clarity on this though.

 

[Player -0]

Well this exists:

Spoiler

Apparently screw logic. Running also has acceleration. Because of reasons.

Also does your DJ ignore jump acceleration/has a higher one? I'm not sure why DJ'ing from the ground to a platform feels better (actually I don't know if I even DJ to platforms, lol autopilot movement. Pretty sure I don't typically though.) than a normal FH. Use Falco for this example.

Also ground -> air jump momentum. A character with a higher value brings more momentum to the air from their speed on the ground right? So even if there's a faster character as long as they're not too much faster and have a lower value they'll go slower in the air. This is probably negligible most of the time, you have to factor in air mobility too then? Does the grounded part ignore the max air drift value if it gets extra momentum from other types of moves or...?

 

[jtm94]

Peach UpB has very little landing lag as well.

Sheik is a character that runs fast until she jumps because her air speed puts on the horizontal brakes.

I'm glad everyone shut down Neon's list. I don't think Link is that good at all. Coming from 3.02 I never thought I'd see the day where I thought GnW was better than Link.

 

[GP&B]

Totally conjecture, but I'm gonna guess it replaces it with the DJ speed which is why you can do insta-DJ into NIL with platforms.

 

[ChiePet]

Peach UpB has very little landing lag as well.

True, but only if as the parasol opens and that "dip" happens she lands on a platform, insanely low lag, butt otherwise tho. Aerial ending lag on platforms is pretty fun for her already extensive movement options.

 

[Rᴏb]

 

[JOE!]

Wouldn't it be sick if the PT Pokemon had their Melee Pokeball moves?

Charizard has a super fast, multi hit disjoint that is one burst forward and cant be angled. (...wait)
Squirtle can charge up a hydro pump shot like Blastoise.
Ivysaur's new Dsmash has her shake her booty and get stoner eyes.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Fox is better on shield, than wolf.

 

[Zerudahime]

On the subject of Transform:

ok so now we are complaining about TRANSFORM?
gimme a ****ing break.
seriously get a grip and understand the concept of "Sheilda" vs Zelda or Sheik.
There is a specific way to play them as Z/S and a specific way to play them separately.
If you are losing because of down B, its due to ignorance and inexperience.
In which case, you deserve to lose shamefully and in the most disrespectful way possible.

This is the most optimized transform has ever been. And If this is something people are opting to take away from a truly tandem character, you should all feel extremely ashamed of yourselves for your blatant ignorance of an incredibly under utilized move by 90% of the community.

do some of you people even realize the amount of immaculate reads one needs to make in order for this to function and work properly?

I seriously cant believe this was even brought up...but as usual....

BLAME ZHIME.

SERIOUSLY THEY ARE THE ONLY CHARACTER WITH THIS UNIQUE ABILITY.
IF YOU TAKE THIS AWAY FOR ANY REASON I LOSE FAITH IN ALL OF YOUR ABILITIES.
NOT ONLY TO COMPETE, BUT BECAUSE YOURE DOING NOTHING BUT DESTROYING UNIQUE
AND VIABLE ASPECTS IN THS GAME. STOP IT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E91_wfIFnx8

#dontletgoofme #openupyoureyes

 

[Player -0]

Wolf has that sick 0 frame disadvantage because of his Nair on shield. Then shine and repeat for the max lols.

 

[Boiko]

On the subject of Transform:

ok so now we are complaining about TRANSFORM?
gimme a ****ing break.
seriously get a grip and understand the concept of "Sheilda" vs Zelda or Sheik.
There is a specific way to play them as Z/S and a specific way to play them separately.
If you are losing because of down B, its due to ignorance and inexperience.
In which case, you deserve to lose shamefully and in the most disrespectful way possible.

This is the most optimized transform has ever been. And If this is something people are opting to take away from a truly tandem character, you should all feel extremely ashamed of yourselves for your blatant ignorance of an incredibly under utilized move by 90% of the community.

do some of you people even realize the amount of immaculate reads one needs to make in order for this to function and work properly?

I seriously cant believe this was even brought up...but as usual....

BLAME ZHIME.

SERIOUSLY THEY ARE THE ONLY CHARACTER WITH THIS UNIQUE ABILITY.
IF YOU TAKE THIS AWAY FOR ANY REASON I LOSE FAITH IN ALL OF YOUR ABILITIES.
NOT ONLY TO COMPETE, BUT BECAUSE YOURE DOING NOTHING BUT DESTROYING UNIQUE
AND VIABLE ASPECTS IN THS GAME. STOP IT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E91_wfIFnx8

#dontletgoofme #openupyoureyes

I'm sorry but this argument literally makes no sense.
I've already made the point that there is a unique way to play them in tandem and when someone can perform that at a high level, such as yourself, it's an extremely strong mechanic that invalidates counter picking in both a character and stage dynamic. That's not fair, it defeats balance purposes, and it should be removed.

Zelda and Sheik, independently, are both strong characters, they do not need to be together even if it's "unique." Unfortunately, uniqueness =/= balance, and if something will clearly be overpowered, it should be worked on, even if it means sacrificing said degree of uniqueness.

Regarding your, "If you're losing because of downb, it's due to ignorance and inexperience."
Sure, this could be true to an extent. But the same argument can be made about any one mechanic in the entire game, so it really holds no weight. I mean, you said it yourself, it's underused by the community. But when the community starts utilizing it more, it's going to be clear how powerful it is. And it sounds like something you're just saying to make people feel bad about arguing your points.

Samus has a really awesome unique ability in ice mode. She's the only character in the game who has this. Lucas has a unique ability in OU. Even Olimar has a unique trait with Pikmin blooming. None of these, however, are worth complaining about, because they don't give you access to an entirely different character that adequately covers the other's weaknesses.

I'm not blaming you for anything, I've never even played you. I've also never lost to a Sheilda in tournament. It's no one's responsibility to validate their design choices to you.

 

[steelguttey]

just here to say your daily reminder that just because its hard to use doesnt mean its balanced in the slightest

 

[Rizner]

I'm sorry but this argument literally makes no sense.
I've already made the point that there is a unique way to play them in tandem and when someone can perform that at a high level, such as yourself, it's an extremely strong mechanic that invalidates counter picking in both a character and stage dynamic. That's not fair, it defeats balance purposes, and it should be removed.

Zelda and Sheik, independently, are both strong characters, they do not need to be together even if it's "unique." Unfortunately, uniqueness =/= balance, and if something will clearly be overpowered, it should be worked on, even if it means sacrificing said degree of uniqueness.

Regarding your, "If you're losing because of downb, it's due to ignorance and inexperience."
Sure, this could be true to an extent. But the same argument can be made about any one mechanic in the entire game, so it really holds no weight. I mean, you said it yourself, it's underused by the community. But when the community starts utilizing it more, it's going to be clear how powerful it is. And it sounds like something you're just saying to make people feel bad about arguing your points.

Samus has a really awesome unique ability in ice mode. She's the only character in the game who has this. Lucas has a unique ability in OU. Even Olimar has a unique trait with Pikmin blooming. None of these, however, are worth complaining about, because they don't give you access to an entirely different character that adequately covers the other's weaknesses.

I'm not blaming you for anything, I've never even played you. I've also never lost to a Sheilda in tournament. It's no one's responsibility to validate their design choices to you.

I think you consider more weaknesses covered than what really happens. You know the character can do this similar to knowing Samus can switch beams. Use that knowledge, take them to a stage which is bad for both, use a character who can deal with both. It's not super difficult imo.

 

[Boiko]

I think you consider more weaknesses covered than what really happens. You know the character can do this similar to knowing Samus can switch beams. Use that knowledge, take them to a stage which is bad for both, use a character who can deal with both. It's not super difficult imo.

Oh you mean Fox?

 

[SmashMax16]

Why is squirtle consider so bad?

Squirtle imo should be placed higher he has a great up smash and a pretty good neutral a hes a decent speed good jumps and good air attacks

 

[Rizner]

Oh you mean Fox?

Or Kirby, or ddd, or maybe falco and wolf, possibly toon link, there's always the ditto, diddy isn't bad, unsure how mewtwo is vs sheik now but works against Zelda, etc. If you want an exhaustive list I can actually go through the cast later today

 

[Foo]

On the subject of Transform:

ok so now we are complaining about TRANSFORM?
gimme a ****ing break.
seriously get a grip and understand the concept of "Sheilda" vs Zelda or Sheik.
There is a specific way to play them as Z/S and a specific way to play them separately.
If you are losing because of down B, its due to ignorance and inexperience.
In which case, you deserve to lose shamefully and in the most disrespectful way possible.

This is the most optimized transform has ever been. And If this is something people are opting to take away from a truly tandem character, you should all feel extremely ashamed of yourselves for your blatant ignorance of an incredibly under utilized move by 90% of the community.

do some of you people even realize the amount of immaculate reads one needs to make in order for this to function and work properly?

I seriously cant believe this was even brought up...but as usual....

BLAME ZHIME.

SERIOUSLY THEY ARE THE ONLY CHARACTER WITH THIS UNIQUE ABILITY.
IF YOU TAKE THIS AWAY FOR ANY REASON I LOSE FAITH IN ALL OF YOUR ABILITIES.
NOT ONLY TO COMPETE, BUT BECAUSE YOURE DOING NOTHING BUT DESTROYING UNIQUE
AND VIABLE ASPECTS IN THS GAME. STOP IT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E91_wfIFnx8

#dontletgoofme #openupyoureyes

Obligatory preface:

Unique doesn't equal good
Suggesting change doesn't equal complaining
Please stop with the ad hominem

Here's the thing with transform. As of right this second, it isn't OP because sheik is so friggin OP, there's almost no reason to switch to zelda. However, next patch, I bet we're going to see an even more balanced roster, and we're going to see more sheik nerfs. In a world where sheik and zelda, two extremely different characters, were equally viable, transform would be super busted. Because of how different they are, they will naturally succeed and struggle at different things. This means that if the matchup was bad for one character, it's probably not bad for the other, if the matchup is even for one, it may be great for the other, etc. etc. Not to mention, they both like completely different stage types.

In this hypothetical 4.0, you are rewarded for playing sheik and zelda by being COMPLETELY UNABLE TO BE COUNTERPICKED ON STAGE OR CHARACTER. It wouldn't matter if you won or lost, you would almost always have a favorable character/stage matchup. Since the hypothetical 4.0 is where this change would come in to play, we have to look at it from that perspective rather than from 3.5.

 

[Mean Green]

Why is squirtle consider so bad?

Squirtle imo should be placed higher he has a great up smash and a pretty good neutral a hes a decent speed good jumps and good air attacks

Why does everyone always know how to argue about how bad their main is, but when they don't know a character, they say some optimistic stuff, just like this?

 

[Life]

Why is squirtle consider so bad?

Squirtle imo should be placed higher he has a great up smash and a pretty good neutral a hes a decent speed good jumps and good air attacks

Been waiting for someone to bring him up. Didn't wanna do it myself for some reason.

I love Squirtle, and I think he's generally underrated by the PM community at large. That said, due to his general lack of priority, he has a few pretty difficult matchups (e.g. Marth, Roy, GnW) which prevents him from being high on the list. Given that PM has virtually no low-tier characters, a lot of people see that as condemning. Also, he has terrible tech rolls for some reason, so characters reliant on techchasing can get pretty substantial punishes on Squirtle.

I personally don't think Squirtle has any unwinnable matchups, as he has the sheer mobility to succeed in neutral. He is, however, in severe need of optimization in terms of gimping and techchasing. Needs an Axe- or M2K-like figure to show the world what he can do, and so far nobody's stepped up to the plate.

 

[Boiko]

Or Kirby, or ddd, or maybe falco and wolf, possibly toon link, there's always the ditto, diddy isn't bad, unsure how mewtwo is vs sheik now but works against Zelda, etc. If you want an exhaustive list I can actually go through the cast later today

I think you're missing the point, and maybe that's my fault, but I felt like I've been pretty clear.

Would it be fair if Fox could switch into Wolf? What if Samus could switch to ZSS? Or if Ness and Lucas could quickly swap?
If you even think about saying yes, you're dead wrong. These characters are strong enough to stand alone, just like Sheik and Zelda. The only reason we look at transform as "normal" is because it's the way it's been since it was introduced. That doesn't need to be the case anymore. If Zelda still sucked like she does in melee, it would be fine. But she doesn't, she's a very good character (in my opinion, highly underrated). Giving a player access to two viable characters at once makes zero sense.

If you're making a list from individual match up perspectives, which it seems you are, 70 percent of the characters you listed lose to Sheik with others being ambiguous.