Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

squirtle is such a dumb character because the only reason he is any good is because he is the most mobile character in the game. he has bad killing options, small hitboxes and dies really early but just because his neutral is so good because he doesnt get hit by anything if youre good. hes just so slippery and hard to touch.

yea, shielda is dumb and shouldnt be in the game. the only reason we kept it is because its been in smash games but even sakurai noticed its stupid and its out of smash 4 lmao

 

[JOE!]

I was actually serious (except ivys booty shake) about Zard and Squirtle getting their melee moves

I mean come on, they were in melee and we love putting things the way there were there

 

[otheusrex]

You crazy. I haaate the Zelda MU as Samus, even with ice mode. ;(

You're playing against a competent Sheik, you start to learn their habits, approaches, etc. You beginning to punish decently well, and have an overall solid neutral game. Well, your opponent did the same thing, they learned your play style, they adapted to your habits, etc. So now, they know your habits, how you respond to pressure, how you attempt to control the pace, and they switch. Now they're playing an entirely different character. They already know what your habits are, and good luck switching that up on the fly just because they're playing a different character. They don't need to relearn how you play your character halfway through, but you do..

wow, what a whiner

Personally, I don't care if they remove transform because I'd be curious to see what new down B they gave Zelda. But I'll scream if they made it something to do with Dins instead of giving her a new move. Dins fire doesn't need to be even more centralizing to her playstyle by having 2 of her specials deal with it.

 

[Boiko]

wow, what a whiner

Personally, I don't care if they remove transform because I'd be curious to see what new down B they gave Zelda. But I'll scream if they made it something to do with Dins instead of giving her a new move. Dins fire doesn't need to be even more centralizing to her playstyle by having 2 of her specials deal with it.

Yeah, because a sensible post explaining the player to player dynamic of the game and how it is dramatically swayed when a character change is implemented, mid-game or not, is whining.

Thanks for your contribution?

 

[Shadic]

squirtle is such a dumb character because the only reason he is any good is because he is the most mobile character in the game. he has bad killing options, small hitboxes and dies really early but just because his neutral is so good because he doesnt get hit by anything if youre good

USmash, UpB, and Aquajet are powerful killing options, and all kill off the top. Nair is a solid gimping option (25 degree angle why also armor), Fair has generic damage/KBG (13 damage, 100KBG), but an immense 35 BKB, and he can shell-sling these aerials across the stage like a tiny, incredibly frustrating Falcon.
(Also all aerials except Dair are frame 5)

If a high-level pro put some solid work into Squirtle, I think people would be pulling their hair out.

 

[PlateProp]

squirtle is such a dumb character because the only reason he is any good is because he is the most mobile character in the game. he has bad killing options, small hitboxes and dies really early but just because his neutral is so good because he doesnt get hit by anything if youre good. hes just so slippery and hard to touch.

yea, shielda is dumb and shouldnt be in the game. the only reason we kept it is because its been in smash games but even sakurai noticed its stupid and its out of smash 4 lmao

>squirtle
>good
pick one

USmash, UpB, and Aquajet are powerful killing options, and all kill off the top. Nair is a solid gimping option (25 degree angle why also armor), Fair has generic damage/KBG (13 damage, 100KBG), but an immense 35 BKB, and he can shell-sling these aerials across the stage like a tiny, incredibly frustrating Falcon.
(Also all aerials except Dair are frame 5)

If a high-level pro put some solid work into Squirtle, I think people would be pulling their hair out.

Medium armor removal when?

srsly tho, pls remove medium armor from squirtle

 

[otheusrex]

>squirtle
>good
pick one

Medium armor removal when?

srsly tho, pls remove medium armor from squirtle

^^^^^

 

[Life]

USmash, UpB, and Aquajet are powerful killing options, and all kill off the top. Nair is a solid gimping option (25 degree angle why also armor), Fair has generic damage/KBG (13 damage, 100KBG), but an immense 35 BKB, and he can shell-sling these aerials across the stage like a tiny, incredibly frustrating Falcon.
(Also all aerials except Dair are frame 5)

If a high-level pro put some solid work into Squirtle, I think people would be pulling their hair out.

Neon was going to IIRC, along with Wolf. Don't know what exactly happened, but judging by which of those two characters ended up on top of his tier list...

Also, usmash is a bit of a read to get it to work (RHUS helps tho), you have to combo into upB and even then there's plenty of time to SDI it (going for just the kill hitbox only works on spacies AFAIK, and ideally Squirtle wants to gimp those anyway), and AJ requires either a decently hard read or a setup of some kind (usually for me it's crawl attack).

That said, Squirtle's gimp game on fastfallers is insane--less so without bubble being OP, but it still works. I just have to figure out how to get them there.

 

[Soft Serve]

Neon was going to IIRC, along with Wolf. Don't know what exactly happened, but judging by which of those two characters ended up on top of his tier list...

Also, usmash is a bit of a read to get it to work (RHUS helps tho), you have to combo into upB and even then there's plenty of time to SDI it (going for just the kill hitbox only works on spacies AFAIK, and ideally Squirtle wants to gimp those anyway), and AJ requires either a decently hard read or a setup of some kind (usually for me it's crawl attack).

That said, Squirtle's gimp game on fastfallers is insane--less so without bubble being OP, but it still works. I just have to figure out how to get them there.

He got dthrow tech chased by SS's wario for 4 stocks and dropped squitle right after

 

[PlateProp]

He got dthrow tech chased by SS's wario for 4 stocks and dropped squitle right after

LOL
I knew he wouldn't go through with it

 

[Rizner]

I think you're missing the point, and maybe that's my fault, but I felt like I've been pretty clear.

Would it be fair if Fox could switch into Wolf? What if Samus could switch to ZSS? Or if Ness and Lucas could quickly swap?
If you even think about saying yes, you're dead wrong. These characters are strong enough to stand alone, just like Sheik and Zelda. The only reason we look at transform as "normal" is because it's the way it's been since it was introduced. That doesn't need to be the case anymore. If Zelda still sucked like she does in melee, it would be fine. But she doesn't, she's a very good character (in my opinion, highly underrated). Giving a player access to two viable characters at once makes zero sense.

If you're making a list from individual match up perspectives, which it seems you are, 70 percent of the characters you listed lose to Sheik with others being ambiguous.

It depends. Right now, I would be fine with ness/lucas as far as balance (definitely not design) because I don't see it as that crazy. I think there's a balance vs character trait issue atm with pm and the future of it. Exact balance doesn't happen until everybody is the same. Homogenization can help balance but make the game lose flavor. I don't see transform being op until it covers a lot more than what I believe it currently does. It changes their mu spread and makes counterpicking harder, which maybe isn't a bad trait for a character.
Realistically, what matchups is it worth changing to Zelda for in your opinion?


Edit: also yeah, az has a toon link

 

[robosteven]

Aside from the obvious of the two being from different games, I'm genuinely curious as to what makes Sheilda different from Gen and why we don't hear Gen outcry like we seem to be hearing of Sheilda.

...even though I ****ing hate Sheilda and don't care about Gen.

 

[Sardonyx]

Yeah, because a sensible post explaining the player to player dynamic of the game and how it is dramatically swayed when a character change is implemented, mid-game or not, is whining.

Thanks for your contribution?

I feel like with Transform being a thing, it's up to the player to know how to fight Zelda and Sheik. They're both characters you may encounter entirely separately(people playing sheik and not zelda and vice versa), so if they change mid match you should know how to deal with the other character. As of right now, transform is a good move. It can make it harder for people to play against the other person, but it is up to you to learn the MUs of both Sheik and Zelda so you can also adapt.

On a side note, I like the points you brought up about ness/lucas and samus/ZSS. It helps to see your point of view somewhat :D

 

[Boiko]

It depends. Right now, I would be fine with ness/lucas as far as balance (definitely not design) because I don't see it as that crazy. I think there's a balance vs character trait issue atm with pm and the future of it. Exact balance doesn't happen until everybody is the same. Homogenization can help balance but make the game lose flavor. I don't see transform being op until it covers a lot more than what I believe it currently does. It changes their mu spread and makes counterpicking harder, which maybe isn't a bad trait for a character.
Realistically, what matchups is it worth changing to Zelda for in your opinion?


Edit: also yeah, az has a toon link

It's not strictly match up related. The question isn't necessarily, "What match up would be worth switching for" (although, some are so bad, it's worth just playing one form the entire time), but rather, "What instance is it worth switching for." Individual match ups play a role, sure. For example, I feel like if your Zelda and Sheik are the same level, you can get away with going Zelda the entire time against Samus. Should you though? Probably not.

The more important dynamic to look at is how Sheik/Zelda, in tandem, counter character play styles and fill niche weaknesses the other has. For example, let's say you're playing against Samus as Sheik. You rack up a moderate amount of damage, put Samus in the air, and you fade back, giving her room to come down. As she's coming down, you switch to Zelda. Now, Samus' space doesn't really mean much, because Nayru's negates missiles, and since it's a reflector, and not a power shield, 18% high knockback missiles coming back at you really slow down your projectile wall. So Instead, Samus will try to space in the neutral, close the ground. It works for a bit, but eventually as Zelda, you land a kick, and now Samus is far off stage. We all know Samus has a slow recovery, so you telecancel over to the ledge, and transform. Now you're edge guarding becomes significantly more potent as Sheik. Needles destroy her bomb jumps, gimp her tether, and hurt her up+b. She's pretty much dead at this point and free to transform to counter the style the Samus player displayed in the first stock.

This is kind of a rough example, but the point I'm trying to convey is that when used properly, in tandem, they greatly cover each other's weaknesses. It's knowing how to use their individual strengths, and not just playing an entirely different match up.

For the record, I don't expect you to change your opinion, and I'm sure you don't expect me to change mine. I'm happy to just provide a discussion.

I feel like with Transform being a thing, it's up to the player to know how to fight Zelda and Sheik. They're both characters you may encounter entirely separately(people playing sheik and not zelda and vice versa), so if they change mid match you should know how to deal with the other character. As of right now, transform is a good move. It can make it harder for people to play against the other person, but it is up to you to learn the MUs of both Sheik and Zelda so you can also adapt.

On a side note, I like the points you brought up about ness/lucas and samus/ZSS. It helps to see your point of view somewhat :D

Sure, and that's definitely true. You should really know all match ups when it comes down to it. But why do you get to select two viable characters at once, but I can only pick one?

 

[Sardonyx]

It's not strictly match up related. The question isn't necessarily, "What match up would be worth switching for" (although, some are so bad, it's worth just playing one form the entire time), but rather, "What instance is it worth switching for." Individual match ups play a role, sure. For example, I feel like if your Zelda and Sheik are the same level, you can get away with going Zelda the entire time against Samus. Should you though? Probably not.

The more important dynamic to look at is how Sheik/Zelda, in tandem, counter character play styles and fill niche weaknesses the other has. For example, let's say you're playing against Samus as Sheik. You rack up a moderate amount of damage, put Samus in the air, and you fade back, giving her room to come down. As she's coming down, you switch to Zelda. Now, Samus' space doesn't really mean much, because Nayru's negates missiles, and since it's a reflector, and not a power shield, 18% high knockback missiles coming back at you really slow down your projectile wall. So Instead, Samus will try to space in the neutral, close the ground. It works for a bit, but eventually as Zelda, you land a kick, and now Samus is far off stage. We all know Samus has a slow recovery, so you telecancel over to the ledge, and transform. Now you're edge guarding becomes significantly more potent as Sheik. Needles destroy her bomb jumps, gimp her tether, and hurt her up+b. You're pretty much dead at this point and free to transform to counter the style the Samus player displayed in the first stock.

This is kind of a rough example, but the point I'm trying to convey is that when used properly, in tandem, they greatly cover each other's weaknesses. It's knowing how to use their individual strengths, and not just playing an entirely different match up.

For the record, I don't expect you to change your opinion, and I'm sure you don't expect me to change mine. I'm happy to just provide a discussion.



Sure, and that's definitely true. You should really know all match ups when it comes down to it. But why do you get to select two viable characters at once, but I can only pick one?

I think it's one of those things that just comes down to it being a part of her character, honestly. I play as Sheilda every now and then and it is easier to get edgeguards on characters.

On the otherhand, finding time to transform and not get punished for it can be difficult since you can't buffer moves out of it anymore. It's really only good to use out of hitstun kinda like when love jump was a thing, but even then you'll end up above your opponent or offstage, so you can get hit and potentially punished depending on their speed/projectile capabilities, or like what you said as a response to Riz. If a Sheik/Zelda is just randomly transforming though they should get punished for it.

 

[Boiko]

I think it's one of those things that just comes down to it being a part of her character, honestly. I play as Sheilda every now and then and it is easier to get edgeguards on characters.

On the otherhand, finding time to transform and not get punished for it can be difficult since you can't buffer moves out of it anymore. It's really only good to use out of hitstun kinda like when love jump was a thing, but even then you'll end up above your opponent or offstage, so you can get hit and potentially punished depending on their speed/projectile capabilities, or like what you said as a response to Riz. If a Sheik/Zelda is just randomly transforming though they should get punished for it.

Of course, and if you can identify that the Sheilda player is feeling pressured and wants to switch, you can keep more pressure on them. It's adaptive, as are most things in the game. But I believe transform only has five frames of end lag, which isn't particularly punishable. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[JOE!]

If the pokemon and samuses had theirs taken away, why doeS sheilda keep it beyond "muh melee"?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Of course, and if you can identify that the Sheilda player is feeling pressured and wants to switch, you can keep more pressure on them. It's adaptive, as are most things in the game. But I believe transform only has five frames of end lag, which isn't particularly punishable. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

7. And you get the entirety of the transformation animation to get ready for it

 

[otheusrex]

Your points make sense, but I feel like they rest on this assumption that transform should only exist if it's not useful to matter anyways. If your statements are true concerning transform strategies, then you're also just pointing out why it works as a mechanic. If you're trying to say it's too good because it works, that's a weak argument, and I think balance wise, having transform total time being just under 2 seconds is counterbalance enough for having a reason to use it.

On the different point that keeps coming up. Should zelda/sheik be allowed to have something that others don't? That's something that is a matter of taste. On the one hand, as rizner points out, if we eliminated every character's unique capabilities for balance reasons it results in a homogenized and boring cast. On the other, if Zelda and sheik's unique mu strategy negates any bad mus whatsoever, then it's a legitimate concern. But if the reason it should be removed is because other character's don't have it but their unique abilities are fine, then it boils down to a popularity contest, which I'm not ok with at all.

With that said, being a member of the pm community for 3 years and watching its development swing back and forth over 5 builds has lead me to believe that there should be a better and more objective system for rating the power levels of characters. It gets tiring to have character's being thought horrible in one build, then boosted in the next, only to have people freak out and nerf them again.

And lastly, I think this discussion about the viability of shielda strategies would be a bit more authentic if we had something who actually mained shielda taking part in it.

 

[Sardonyx]

Of course, and if you can identify that the Sheilda player is feeling pressured and wants to switch, you can keep more pressure on them. It's adaptive, as are most things in the game. But I believe transform only has five frames of end lag, which isn't particularly punishable. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think it has 5 frames of end lag because on the Project M website the IASA was moved from frame 1 to 7, so there has to be more than 5 frames.

If the pokemon and samuses had theirs taken away, why doeS sheilda keep it beyond "muh melee"?

Pokemon had 3 different characters as opposed to 2 that were all radically different from one another, so it would be like fighting Sheilda, but worse pretty much, and samus and ZSS could only change because of a final smash, so I didn't know that was removed honestly lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wolf has that sick 0 frame disadvantage because of his Nair on shield. Then shine and repeat for the max lols.

But nair is like -4 or -5 in shield. It's good because it's consistent due to the landing hitbox tho. So shine still always beats out grab unless you nair too early for the landing hitbox

 

[Boiko]

Your points make sense, but I feel like they rest on this assumption that transform should only exist if it's not useful to matter anyways. If your statements are true concerning transform strategies, then you're also just pointing out why it works as a mechanic. If you're trying to say it's too good because it works, that's a weak argument, and I think balance wise, having transform total time being just under 2 seconds is counterbalance enough for having a reason to use it.

I haven't thought of a legitimate solution quite yet, and I'll address your other points a bit later.

On the different point that keeps coming up. Should zelda/sheik be allowed to have something that others don't? That's something that is a matter of taste. On the one hand, as rizner points out, if we eliminated every character's unique capabilities for balance reasons it results in a homogenized and boring cast. On the other, if Zelda and sheik's unique mu strategy negates any bad mus whatsoever, then it's a legitimate concern. But if the reason it should be removed is because other character's don't have it but their unique abilities are fine, then it boils down to a popularity contest, which I'm not ok with at all.

Agreed, and I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not my agenda.

And lastly, I think this discussion about the viability of shielda strategies would be a bit more authentic if we had something who actually mained shielda taking part in it.

Agree and disagree. There's always a degree of character bias when people talk about their mains. It's very hard to eliminate it.

7. And you get the entirety of the transformation animation to get ready for it

Don't forget to consider that the load times are inconsistent.

And this is just a note for everyone. PM has 820 different character match ups. Very few characters are not viable in the most recent build. The game is heavily weighted on stage and character counter picks. Certain characters just counter others very well, it's just the way it is and I'm sure it's the way it will always be. If your Ness game one and you lose to Marth, suddenly you can be D3 the next game and have a better match up while still using a viable character. This dynamic is what makes the game interesting to me. When a character posses the ability to substantially mitigate the counter pick process, it defeats a key player vs. player interaction of the game. You literally have no idea if your opponent has a pocket Zelda/Sheik, and you need to assume that they do. If they don't, you end up wasting stage bans, or lessening the strength of your CP in a different way.

In my opinion, transform should either be gone, or Zelda and Sheik should be given notable weaknesses and balanced around each other, not balanced as individual characters. I think that's the key problem here.

 

[Broccoli]

wow, what a whiner

Personally, I don't care if they remove transform because I'd be curious to see what new down B they gave Zelda. But I'll scream if they made it something to do with Dins instead of giving her a new move. Dins fire doesn't need to be even more centralizing to her playstyle by having 2 of her specials deal with it.

They could give Sheik TWO CHAINZ

 

[Boiko]

Pokemon had 3 different characters as opposed to 2 that were all radically different from one another, so it would be like fighting Sheilda, but worse pretty much, and samus and ZSS could only change because of a final smash, so I didn't know that was removed honestly lol.

Samus can change to ZSS with taunt inputs, IIRC.

 

[Broccoli]

samus and ZSS could only change because of a final smash, so I didn't know that was removed honestly lol.

Not true, one of the taunt buttons in quick succession caused Samus to remove her armor and turn into ZSS, I don't remember which one though.

 

[otheusrex]

There's always a degree of character bias when people talk about their mains. It's very hard to eliminate it..

Agreed, but there's also a character bias when people are talking about players they fight against as well.

In my opinion, transform should either be gone, or Zelda and Sheik should be given notable weaknesses and balanced around each other, not balanced as individual characters. I think that's the key problem here

Actually, I agree pretty much 100% on this. I don't think transform is a well thought out mechanic at all. I'd rather have separate moves at this point since the fact that zelda can transform into sheik is something that comes up every now in then on why she shouldn't be more well rounded. Sheik should probably get something that aids her recovery, whereas Zelda something that aids in approaching.

 

[Broccoli]

Samus can change to ZSS with taunt inputs, IIRC.

Not true, one of the taunt buttons in quick succession caused Samus to remove her armor and turn into ZSS, I don't remember which one though.

WAVELEEEEEENGTHS

 

[Boiko]

Agreed, but there's also a character bias when people are talking about players they fight against as well.

I'm not blaming you for anything, I've never even played you. I've also never lost to a Sheilda in tournament. It's no one's responsibility to validate their design choices to you.

js.

 

[otheusrex]

I'm not blaming you for anything, I've never even played you. I've also never lost to a Sheilda in tournament. It's no one's responsibility to validate their design choices to you

Well ditto then, cause that goes both ways. Maybe it's no one's responsibility to validate transform design choices to you either. Yet you did, so I think it's fair game for a discussion about it then. Unless you're just looking for a place to vent

 

[Boiko]

Well ditto then, cause that goes both ways. Maybe it's no one's responsibility to validate transform design choices to you either. Yet you did, so I think it's fair game for a discussion about it then. Unless you're just looking for a place to vent

Lol, that was my reply to Zhime earlier.
Lost in translation I guess.

 

[Sardonyx]

Not true, one of the taunt buttons in quick succession caused Samus to remove her armor and turn into ZSS, I don't remember which one though.

Samus can change to ZSS with taunt inputs, IIRC.

Ah thanks. I never played as either in brawl so I didn't know.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Not true, one of the taunt buttons in quick succession caused Samus to remove her armor and turn into ZSS, I don't remember which one though.

You had to rapidly press up and down on the D-pad. could switch to , but not the other way around.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Lets be honest @ Boiko , we don't really care if zelda/sheik is changed.

What we really want is More Plasma/Ice Beam differences, and for both to be super viable.

Make Fire Upsmash not SDI-able (dont buff the kill power though)
Make Ice Fsmash Faster
Make Ice Dtilt...not ****.

Then when people complain, we can say 'nah, because Zelda/Sheik'

=D

Right?


(not srs...but it would be awesome to not have **** moves in ice.)

 

[eideeiit]

Why not let Shiek keep transform but not Zelda?

 

[Rizner]

It's not strictly match up related. The question isn't necessarily, "What match up would be worth switching for" (although, some are so bad, it's worth just playing one form the entire time), but rather, "What instance is it worth switching for." Individual match ups play a role, sure. For example, I feel like if your Zelda and Sheik are the same level, you can get away with going Zelda the entire time against Samus. Should you though? Probably not.

The more important dynamic to look at is how Sheik/Zelda, in tandem, counter character play styles and fill niche weaknesses the other has. For example, let's say you're playing against Samus as Sheik. You rack up a moderate amount of damage, put Samus in the air, and you fade back, giving her room to come down. As she's coming down, you switch to Zelda. Now, Samus' space doesn't really mean much, because Nayru's negates missiles, and since it's a reflector, and not a power shield, 18% high knockback missiles coming back at you really slow down your projectile wall. So Instead, Samus will try to space in the neutral, close the ground. It works for a bit, but eventually as Zelda, you land a kick, and now Samus is far off stage. We all know Samus has a slow recovery, so you telecancel over to the ledge, and transform. Now you're edge guarding becomes significantly more potent as Sheik. Needles destroy her bomb jumps, gimp her tether, and hurt her up+b. She's pretty much dead at this point and free to transform to counter the style the Samus player displayed in the first stock.

This is kind of a rough example, but the point I'm trying to convey is that when used properly, in tandem, they greatly cover each other's weaknesses. It's knowing how to use their individual strengths, and not just playing an entirely different match up.

For the record, I don't expect you to change your opinion, and I'm sure you don't expect me to change mine. I'm happy to just provide a discussion.



Sure, and that's definitely true. You should really know all match ups when it comes down to it. But why do you get to select two viable characters at once, but I can only pick one?

Discussion is healthy as long as people don't get mad about it, so that's cool with me lo.

So you're talking about a character having an option that yours or any others don't have. That happens all the time, and adds uniqueness to the game. Whether transform, armor, solar beam/healing, lucario cancel stuff, shines, djc, etc it's all what you decide to prioritize in character choice that gives you options in the game. That isn't a fair argument to make imo.

The switch is a reward for good play if used in match, and a trade off to other options. If I rack up damage and get sheik to Zelda transform on you, it's similar to you creating space as Samus and being able to open up a projectile game against me. Then if I knock you off stage and transform instead of dins, that's a reward for knocking you super far back and having time to do that, as well as being on a stage that allows the space and time for it to happen. Similarly, you can charge a beam, ivy can heal and get his beam, Lucas can charge up, or Lucario can taunt to get aura back. All of those things change how matchups need to play, options you have, approach angles, moves to watch out for, ways you di, etc. The transform changes more, but I don't see it as changing so much to skew balance to a ridiculous level or give her options that are unreasonable.

 

[Boiko]

Lets be honest @ Boiko , we don't really care if zelda/sheik is changed.

What we really want is More Plasma/Ice Beam differences, and for both to be super viable.

Make Fire Upsmash not SDI-able (dont buff the kill power though)
Make Ice Fsmash Faster
Make Ice Dtilt...not ****.

Then when people complain, we can say 'nah, because Zelda/Sheik'

=D

Right?


(not srs...but it would be awesome to not have **** moves in ice.)

I would loooove if Ice Up Smash had more knockback. It's probably the most badass looking move in the game. Fair too, give it a spike hitbox at the bottom that sends the opponent at the same angle as Marth's dair! TOTALLY REASONABLE!!!

Really though, ice dtilt y so useless.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Agree on ice upsmash looking badass.

Like, only Ganons uptilt looks stronger.
The jet assisted jump and giant cannon swing is such a powerful looking move, it should at least be as powerful as fox upsmash.
Considering his is a pitiful backflip with metal feet.
Samus's cannon is more meaty than fox legs.

Ice Dtilt should do something unique. Like Subzero freezing the ground.
Lay an ice puddle that lasts like half a second longer after the move ends. opponents that walk on it go into their 'too close to the edge animation' and slide across it.

And fair late spike = drool.

 

[robosteven]

>ice Samus

they should give fair less cooldown so I can follow people off of the edge, immediately fair, and not plummet to my death

I don't think that would break the character

 

[Soft Serve]

But nair is like -4 or -5 in shield. It's good because it's consistent due to the landing hitbox tho. So shine still always beats out grab unless you nair too early for the landing hitbox

Nair is -1/-2 on shield because of the landing hitbox, unless it was changed more than just what they told us

 

[Deleted member]

as a melee zelda player and pm sheik player, i hate transform and always have. any way you look at it is poor design and inconsistent with the rest of the cast