Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

can we talk about how ****ing dumb it is that gnw has the same throw animation for all of his throws and three of them are di mixups with eachother? who thought that was ok?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Styling on people with bad moves is cool, yeah. Unfortunately it almost always means that the guy getting styled on has messed up horribly. There's almost no reason to ever use any of those moves.

@ steelguttey Yeah, it's a huge pet peeve of mine. If I DI one throw wrong in that MU I'm probably dead. Even dthrow is functionally a DI mixup because often you can't afford to DI away from the stage because it might result in you tech-rolling in place and thereby getting usmashed or something.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm not sure if you read the entire thread or not, but this point was addressed time and time again. You literally have a built in character select mind game that diminishes the effectiveness of counter picking.

That's the same excuse that's been brought up again and again, yet it leads to nowhere, and for good reason. You want it gone under the burden of absolutely no more proof than has existed since PM began 5 years ago, which is stupid. Dumbing down a fun mechanic that some players partake in because of something that "might" happen but has had plenty of proven time and experience to show that it hasn't is not good fanservice.

If you don't know your opponent's capabilities on how they can use a character's full toolkit or at least have some expectancy of it, you have room to be outplayed regardless of who they're using or whether or not they have a Transform. The way you and others talk (complain) about it you'd think that the fact that Zelda and Sheik have a Transform is some newfangled technology. It's precisely why any complaints about it existing are a tired subject year after year and an issue of "know your opponent" which can go both ways. Smart players who are in it to genuinely do their best don't sit there and whine about it, but lab it out and realize it's really not nearly the issue it seems. This is honestly something I miss about playing fighters that don't have continued development compared to PM's spoiled crowd after my 14 years of Smash. Get better and deal with it.

 

[Foo]

Wait, am I the only person who doesn't think samus needs buffs? Samus is already REALLY friggin good, I don't think she needs to be made better. If you want buffs to her worse moves, you'll need to pay the toll. If you buff those other moves, what would be nerfed to compensate?

That's the same excuse that's been brought up again and again, yet it leads to nowhere, and for good reason. You want it gone under the burden of absolutely no more proof than has existed since PM began 5 years ago, which is stupid. Dumbing down a fun mechanic that some players partake in because of something that "might" happen but has had plenty of proven time and experience to show that it hasn't is not good fanservice.

If you don't know your opponent's capabilities on how they can use a character's full toolkit or at least have some expectancy of it, you have room to be outplayed regardless of who they're using or whether or not they have a Transform. The way you and others talk (complain) about it you'd think that the fact that Zelda and Sheik have a Transform is some newfangled technology. It's precisely why any complaints about it existing are a tired subject year after year and an issue of "know your opponent" which can go both ways. Smart players who are in it to genuinely do their best don't sit there and whine about it, but lab it out and realize it's really not nearly the issue it seems. This is honestly something I miss about playing fighters that don't have continued development compared to PM's spoiled crowd after my 14 years of Smash. Get better and deal with it.

In every iteration of PM and in melee, sheik has been wildly better than zelda, and it's less so in 3.5. However, in 4.0, sheik is getting nerfed for absolute certain and the cast will be better balanced overall, so sheik and zelda will probably be roughly even. What makes that busted is that they cannot be counterpicked. Zelda will like almost all of sheik's bad matchups and vice-versa, and zelda will like all of sheik's bad stages and vice versa.

By playing sheik and zelda, you would immune to the concept of counterpicking and that is busted. When making changes, you have to balance for the hypothetical next patch, so of course it's all "what if's." If you look at the 3.5 changelog and looked at each change in a vacuum, and pretended it was the only change made, almost all of them would be really stupid. If you heard R.O.B. was getting nerfed during 3.02 you'd be like, wtf, R.O.B.? Why?! But thank god he was.

Also, please get that last part out of here. This is a game where things can be changed so there is nothing wrong with suggesting change. It's only whining when someone is saying stuff like that when it can't be changed and they KNOW it can't be changed. Mostly, however, just because we are suggested said change doesn't we aren't "dealing with it." There are a few sheilda players near me and I've never lost to one. You don't learn to deal with a bad mechanic OR suggest it be changed; you can easily do both.

EDIT: Thought of a better way to say this. Let's say there were 5 (because I'm not doing 40 lol) non sheik/zelda characters and this is what their matchup spread could look like.


Sheik
A. 60/40
B. 40/60
C. 50/50
D. 30/70
E. 70/30

Zelda
A. 30/70
B. 60/40
C. 40/60
D. 70/30
E. 50/50

They have identical overall matchups spreads, but the matchups for individual characters is different, so shielda would effectively have a matchup spread of:

Shielda:
A. 60/40
B. 60/40
C. 50/50
D. 70/30
E. 70/30

 

[Boiko]

That's the same excuse that's been brought up again and again, yet it leads to nowhere, and for good reason. You want it gone under the burden of absolutely no more proof than has existed since PM began 5 years ago, which is stupid. Dumbing down a fun mechanic that some players partake in because of something that "might" happen but has had plenty of proven time and experience to show that it hasn't is not good fanservice.

Fan service works both ways. And once again, you're citing past instances which mean nothing. Go look at tier lists from 3.0 and tell me where you see Sheik and Zelda. Low. Now? Each character has amazing strengths. In this case, you can't cite the past to fortify your argument. There have been too many rapidly changing variables. If the PMDT's goal is to make it so that every character is standalone viable in some way, having Sheilda defeats that purpose. My sense here is that a lot of people don't understand the substantial weight of counter picking in Project M. In order to win in this game, you almost always need to counter pick; stage, character, or both. Certain characters are ill suited to handle others and it will always be that way. By allowing Sheilda to be in this game, you're giving a player a midgame counter pick, that must be considered when stage striking. It makes zero sense and is ultimately a poor design..

If you don't know your opponent's capabilities on how they can use a character's full toolkit or at least have some expectancy of it, you have room to be outplayed regardless of who they're using or whether or not they have a Transform. The way you and others talk (complain) about it you'd think that the fact that Zelda and Sheik have a Transform is some newfangled technology. It's precisely why any complaints about it existing are a tired subject year after year and an issue of "know your opponent" which can go both ways. Smart players who are in it to genuinely do their best don't sit there and whine about it, but lab it out and realize it's really not nearly the issue it seems. This is honestly something I miss about playing fighters that don't have continued development compared to PM's spoiled crowd after my 14 years of Smash. Get better and deal with it.

This is a pitifully weak argument, and your "get better and deal with it" mindset is toxic and invalidates your credibility. Should we have just let 3.02 Mewtwo and Lucas run rampant and tell everyone to "get better and deal with it"? Do you want to make the argument, "well, it wasn't complained about for years, it's a new thing"? In the past, Lucas wasn't broken, so why complain about it now? Well, simply put, he is (or rather, was) now, he's a dominating force that delineated from the design purpose of the game. No, transform is not newfangled technology, as you put it. But it's relevance in a rapidly evolving meta game is. If you miss playing fighters that don't have continued development, then play those. If you can't deal with the opinions of the community on said games, stay off the boards. If you want to have a reasonable discussion and keep your 14 year old mindset where it belongs, great, I encourage it. But you accomplish nothing by dismissing people as whiners, and applying 14 year old logic to an advancing game.

 

[steelguttey]

the smashboards classic: coming into a thread for the first time in a huge amount of time, not read anything about the topic and talk down to someone because i have a bigger post count and ive been playing for longer. also "get gud"

 

[Juushichi]

Bowser's usmash and fsmash
Not saying I disagree - I'd love those moves to get some love. They're not alone is all I'm saying.

Please no.

I think GnW throw animation mixup is kinda cool, but I can understand why people hate it. idk, i wouldn't change it personally but I can empathize with the irritation.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

In every iteration of PM and in melee, sheik has been wildly better than zelda, and it's less so in 3.5. However, in 4.0, sheik is getting nerfed for absolute certain and the cast will be better balanced overall, so sheik and zelda will probably be roughly even. What makes that busted is that they cannot be counterpicked. Zelda will like almost all of sheik's bad matchups and vice-versa, and zelda will like all of sheik's bad stages and vice versa.

As someone in the PMDT, this is news to me.

Also, please get that last part out of here. This is a game where things can be changed so there is nothing wrong with suggesting change. It's only whining when someone is saying stuff like that when it can't be changed and they KNOW it can't be changed. Mostly, however, just because we are suggested said change doesn't we aren't "dealing with it." There are a few sheilda players near me and I've never lost to one. You don't learn to deal with a bad mechanic OR suggest it be changed; you can easily do both.

Looking at the actual posts that began this line of discussion, they are in fact little more than the same arguments based on some loosely defined standard of of what counterpicking is supposed to secure. To these jaded ears, it's whining. Suggesting the same reasoning against Transform's existence as if something suddenly changed about the move's validity in all these years of stabilizing development isn't breaking new ground. It's just annoying.

All I can diplomatically say regarding Transform over the many times over many years that this subject has been brought up is that "It's a concern. We'll keep an eye on it, but we don't want to butcher such an iconic part of the character unless absolutely necessary." Based on years of data, it hasn't come to that, and that's all there really is to say on the matter. For anyone to definitively say that the move is broken as an untapped breakthrough is insulting our intelligence.

 

[The Baron]

the smashboards classic: coming into a thread for the first time in a huge amount of time, not read anything about the topic and talk down to someone because i have a bigger post count and ive been playing for longer. also "get gud"

I'm saving this for future generatiions

 

[Boiko]

the smashboards classic: coming into a thread for the first time in a huge amount of time, not read anything about the topic and talk down to someone because i have a bigger post count and ive been playing for longer. also "get gud"

I was competitive in 2003, so like I'm not even far behind. I don't pretend it means anything at the end of the day though, because it doesn't.

 

[steelguttey]

i think the reason that no pm zelda/shiek players have started making use of transform is because pm players are historically lazy, consistantly.

 

[Boiko]

Looking at the actual posts that began this line of discussion, they are in fact little more than the same arguments based on some loosely defined standard of of what counterpicking is supposed to secure. To these jaded ears, it's whining. Suggesting the same reasoning against Transform's existence as if something suddenly changed about the move's validity in all these years of stabilizing development isn't breaking new ground. It's just annoying.

All I can diplomatically say regarding Transform over the many times over many years that this subject has been brought up is that "It's a concern. We'll keep an eye on it, but we don't want to butcher such an iconic part of the character unless absolutely necessary." Based on years of data, it hasn't come to that, and that's all there really is to say on the matter. For anyone to definitively say that the move is broken as an untapped breakthrough is insulting our intelligence.

1.) Being in the PMDT =/= all knowing. And it's not even the PMDT's design that's being criticized, it's Nintendo's, and the PMDT's decision to preserve it.
2.)

Suggesting the same reasoning against Transform's existence as if something suddenly changed about the move's validity in all these years of stabilizing development isn't breaking new ground.

RAPIDLY. EVOLVING. GAME.

 

[AceGamer]

i think the reason that no pm zelda/shiek players have started making use of transform is because pm players are historically lazy, consistantly.

That and maybe no one wants to use Shielda, just because a character is insanley good doesn't mean that any people will use that character. Not that many people like Zelda and Sheik to use both, people like Sheik more and I don't blame them

 

[RyokoYaksa]

the smashboards classic: coming into a thread for the first time in a huge amount of time, not read anything about the topic and talk down to someone because i have a bigger post count and ive been playing for longer. also "get gud"

For the record, I have read the Transform-based posts starting from a few days ago because someone brought it to my attention. It's nothing but the same stuff that's discussed every year in a game that, based on results, doesn't really rapidly evolve as much as we'd like to think. You get a post like from me anyway even though you missed my mark.

tl;dr Transform is not a problem now, hasn't been, and likely will not be. If it does come to that by some disastrous act of balancing (like the clearly overtuned 3.02 Mewtwo) we will get to it. Saying that it "absolutely has to go" now is far too premature since it's never garnered the data to back up such a claim, unlike 3.02 Mewtwo who did so very quickly for a character that wasn't already preexisting for years.

 

[steelguttey]

if you walk into a tier list thread talking about things that are anything but theory and expect people not to talk about theory then youre insane.

just because nobody is using it doesnt mean its balanced in the slightest, never has meant that.

 

[Boiko]

For the record, I have read the Transform-based posts starting from a few days ago because someone brought it to my attention. It's nothing but the same stuff that's discussed every year in a game that, based on results, doesn't really rapidly evolve as much as we'd like to think. You get a post like from me anyway even though you missed my mark.

tl;dr Transform is not a problem now, hasn't been, and likely will not be. If it does come to that by some disastrous balance decision (like the clearly overtuned 3.02 Mewtwo) we will get to it. Saying that it "absolutely has to go" now is far too premature.

For a discussion standpoint, if something is noted to be a overpowered mechanic, and it seems the people agree (not saying this is the case for transform specifically, just saying, in general). What's the sense in letting players experience it, learn it, practice with/against it, and then just pull it away after people devoted time into it? I understand if it's somewhat unexpected, like Mewtwo. But if it's understood that it defeats a balance purpose of the game, why leave it in just because it's 'unique?'

And for everyone theorycrafting, you can't look at how Zelda and Sheik have changed over time when assessing transform's potency. You need to look at how the cast as a whole has changed over time and how their interactions with Zelda and Sheik independently have fluctuated.

 

[AceGamer]

if you walk into a tier list thread talking about things that are anything but theory and expect people not to talk about theory then youre insane.

just because nobody is using it doesnt mean its balanced in the slightest, never has meant that.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say it was balanced. Just that it's very unlikely that we'll ever see Sheilda used commonly

 

[.alizarin]

so it's a concern and you're preserving it because it's "iconic" and you believe that there's no reason to remove it?

iconic is subjective anyway, but let's say it is iconic. let's say it's the most iconic move that the zelda/sheik have and ignore the fact that it doesn't fit at all with the rest of the cast. with all that considered, are you telling me that it's worth keeping a literally broken and undependable mechanic? i don't see any benefit in character mains having to determine what strategy is optimal by the read/write speed of an sd card.

 

[steelguttey]

also, there is absolutely no fking way that pmdt went with the balancing philosophy of "nobody has used it in tournament so its fine"

3.0 link was stupid but absolutely nobody used him.

 

[PlateProp]

Please no.

I think GnW throw animation mixup is kinda cool, but I can understand why people hate it. idk, i wouldn't change it personally but I can empathize with the irritation.

GnW just needs not stupid animations everywhere, pls fix

For the record, I have read the Transform-based posts starting from a few days ago because someone brought it to my attention. It's nothing but the same stuff that's discussed every year in a game that, based on results, doesn't really rapidly evolve as much as we'd like to think. You get a post like from me anyway even though you missed my mark.

tl;dr Transform is not a problem now, hasn't been, and likely will not be. If it does come to that by some disastrous act of balancing (like the clearly overtuned 3.02 Mewtwo) we will get to it. Saying that it "absolutely has to go" now is far too premature since it's never garnered the data to back up such a claim, unlike 3.02 Mewtwo who did so very quickly for a character that wasn't already preexisting for years.

if you walk into a tier list thread talking about things that are anything but theory and expect people not to talk about theory then youre insane.

just because nobody is using it doesnt mean its balanced in the slightest, never has meant that.

TL:DR: basically fox

 

[MLGF]

Friend runs Shielda, it's honestly absolutely insane and has a lot of potential. I do agree they cover each other very, very, very well.

 

[Frost | Odds]

[Bowser's f- and u- smashes] Please no.

You play Sheik and GnW - two of Bowser's worst MUs. I'm not sure why you'd feel threatened by desperately needed Bowser design changes?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

so it's a concern and you're preserving it because it's "iconic" and you believe that there's no reason to remove it?

iconic is subjective anyway, but let's say it is iconic. let's say it's the most iconic move that the zelda/sheik have and ignore the fact that it doesn't fit at all with the rest of the cast. with all that considered, are you telling me that it's worth keeping a literally broken and undependable mechanic? i don't see any benefit in character mains having to determine what strategy is optimal by the read/write speed of an sd card.

In general we keep track of whether or not things seriously negatively impact the game enough to warrant a change. Transform has been designed around the possibility of slightly variable switch times - it's why the startup window is the punishable window instead of the endlag. In addition, SD loading is consistent enough now that this particular part of the mechanic hasn't been shown to be problematic. This issue of the move being a potential problem is overstated when installation instructions actually follow protocol, unless...

Riivolution. We maligned it as a loading method for a while, in this absolute worst case scenario I made with someone:

There have been views and whispers of people using both Zelda and Sheik in tournaments matches by way of Transform that are observed, and people have always occasionally used both for as long as players had access to the move. Instances of Transform is something we're aware of people using precisely because it's not common. We want more people to test its potential outside the much smaller developmental testing bubble, even though after this long we have a very good idea of the potential it has on lines it doesn't cross compared to other things that have been changed. Though Transform's usage is not widespread, those who deign to use it in tournament are good at it. With the mod being out for this long with the intention to stabilize the game's development and actually retain players, major changes should be happening less, not more. There's more player interest to be retained by keeping the mechanic than there is for removing it based on what it currently does now.

 

[Chevy]

Also, really hoping you shot a bomb.

You just reminded me that I did in fact shoot a bomb, somewhere in the 5 games of madness.

Bowser's usmash and fsmash
D3's fsmash
Marth usmash
Sheik side b

etcetera.

Not saying I disagree - I'd love those moves to get some love. They're not alone is all I'm saying.

I would argue that all those moves are better aside from D3 fsmash and shiek side b. Not good, but situational at least. You obviously would know better than I, but I get away with Bowser f-smash constantly against people who at least somewhat know the matchup. One hard read or a missed sweetspot is all it takes to end a stock at 30%. Up-smash is probably less useful, but it covers platform tech chases without any risk, right? Also super easy to combo into on fast-fallers.

 

[Boiko]

There's more player interest to be retained by keeping the mechanic than there is for removing it based on what it currently does now.

Though Transform's usage is not widespread

Then what does it really matter? Preserve it because it's "iconic?"

In my eyes, it's not even a major change. It forces a player to pick one character per game just like everyone else.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Chevy utilt (or sh nair) is strictly better against fastfallers, and fsmash should never, never, ever work against a competent opponent. If someone misses a sweetspot badly enough to get hit by a bowser Fsmash, Bowser has a dozen other edgeguarding tools that he probably should have been using anyway - fsmash is a losing strategy long term; and if you're getting away with it, your opponent is terrible.

Fsmash doesn't even really work on hard reads, most of the time. Even middling-laggy moves have early enough IASA for the opponent to quickly bring up a shield after and thereby avoid the fsmash. Anything laggier will almost without fail have enough range to hit Bowser out of his windup animation. You pretty much have to predict the exact timing and placement of something like a Ganon fsmash in order to hit.

It's just a terribly designed move that punishes newbies for being new, and punishes Bowser players for picking Bowser at high levels. The ease with which it's shielded means that it doesn't constitute any actual threat, and Bowser's opponents don't have to play around it at at all. My understanding is that it's kept because it's 'iconic' or something, but I'm in the apparent minority that would prefer to have a kit that promotes healthy gameplay. It's kinda depressing that Kirby, for example, has vastly better grounded killing moves than Bowser.

Bowser sorta gets by at the moment because his fair and nair and dash attack (and upB, to an extent) are way, way too good, but I'd really like to be encouraged to use all of my tools instead of just 3 of them.

 

[Boiko]

@ Frost | Odds What if you break their shield? Or they whiff a rest? You've got a craaazy punish.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Boiko that's happened to me once in tournament, ever - over the course of maybe 100 or 150 sets with Bowser. It doesn't even bear discussing.

Bowser can't break shields of opponents who know what they're doing because his moves are so slow and laggy that it's incredibly easy for opponents to simply retreat and play keepaway the moment their shield becomes even the slightest bit threatened. Fsmash is a great example of this as well - it just barely doesn't break shields, but because it's impossible for Bowser to lead into or follow up from an Fsmash, that's functionally equivalent to doing no shield damage at all.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Then what does it really matter? Preserve it because it's "iconic?"

In my eyes, it's not even a major change. It forces a player to pick one character per game just like everyone else.

It's not widespread amongst competitive users of Sheik, or both of Zelda's. It's not the only crowd to cater to.

 

[GP&B]

Nintendo/Sakurai didn't seem to have any qualms with removing all three transformations (two of which were introduced in Brawl) for Smash 4.

 

[Chevy]

@ Chevy utilt (or sh nair) is strictly better against fastfallers, and fsmash should never, never, ever work against a competent opponent. If someone misses a sweetspot badly enough to get hit by a bowser Fsmash, Bowser has a dozen other edgeguarding tools that he probably should have been using anyway - fsmash is a losing strategy long term; and if you're getting away with it, your opponent is terrible.

Fsmash doesn't even really work on hard reads, most of the time. Even middling-laggy moves have early enough IASA for the opponent to quickly bring up a shield after and thereby avoid the fsmash. Anything laggier will almost without fail have enough range to hit Bowser out of his windup animation. You pretty much have to predict the exact timing and placement of something like a Ganon fsmash in order to hit.

It's just a terribly designed move that punishes newbies for being new, and punishes Bowser players for picking Bowser at high levels. The ease with which it's shielded means that it doesn't constitute any actual threat, and Bowser's opponents don't have to play around it at at all. My understanding is that it's kept because it's 'iconic' or something, but I'm in the apparent minority that would prefer to have a kit that promotes healthy gameplay. It's kinda depressing that Kirby, for example, has vastly better grounded killing moves than Bowser.

Bowser sorta gets by at the moment because his fair and nair and dash attack (and upB, to an extent) are way, way too good, but I'd really like to be encouraged to use all of my tools instead of just 3 of them.

Kinda assumed on the up-smash, but they don't need to miss the sweetspot by much at all for f-smash to hit. Even in Melee, that thing hits at ledge level. I'm not saying it's great, but I think you undersell being able to kill that early. The fear it instills in cowards is enough to make it hit. It's magic.

 

[PlateProp]

It's not widespread amongst competitive users of Sheik, or both of Zelda's. It's not the only crowd to cater to.

If current zelda/shiek only players aren't using transform anyways, then why does it matter?

 

[Boiko]

It's not widespread amongst competitive users of Sheik, or both of Zelda's. It's not the only crowd to cater to.

You're not just to catering to the player of the character, but the players who play against the character. Otherwise the entire roster would just be stupid broken.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Kinda assumed on the up-smash, but they don't need to miss the sweetspot by much at all for f-smash to hit. Even in Melee, that thing hits at ledge level. I'm not saying it's great, but I think you undersell being able to kill that early. The fear it instills in cowards is enough to make it hit. It's magic.

It's magic against bad players, and just further polarizes Bowser at that level. Bowser has too many edgeguarding options as it is, adding fsmash to the mix just makes him frustrating to play against at low level, and doesn't actually help him at all at high level. I actually wish it didn't hit so low for that very reason.

EDIT: Just tested it on YI:B and I, uh

I stand corrected.

Do we think this is okay?

 

[Chevy]

It's magic against bad players, and just further polarizes Bowser at that level. Bowser has too many edgeguarding options as it is, adding fsmash to the mix just makes him frustrating to play against at low level, and doesn't actually help him at all at high level. I actually wish it didn't hit so low for that very reason.

EDIT: Just tested it on YI:B and I, uh

I stand corrected.

Do we think this is okay?

Quit trying to argue like an adult for reasonable changes. Bowser is all about beating guys up cause he's so big and tough.

 

[Akhenderson]

It's magic against bad players, and just further polarizes Bowser at that level. Bowser has too many edgeguarding options as it is, adding fsmash to the mix just makes him frustrating to play against at low level, and doesn't actually help him at all at high level. I actually wish it didn't hit so low for that very reason.

EDIT: Just tested it on YI:B and I, uh

I stand corrected.

Do we think this is okay?

I'm pretty sure that on slants, the hitboxes arent accurately represented on slants. (That might just be for disjointed hitboxes though so I dont know.)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Quit trying to argue like an adult for reasonable changes. Bowser is all about beating guys up cause he's so big and tough.

No. Vocal minorities get stuff done. I'm a vocal minority of one, so I figure if I make an obscene amount of reasonable-sounding noise, I might be able to do the work of a normal vocal minority.

I've been practicing an absolutely ridiculous amount because I really want to establish myself as a credible source by placing well at (winning?) NWM7 so I can actually help get Bowser fixed. My passion is irrational as hell but it's also pretty damn real.

pmdt pls let me fix this character

@ Akhenderson ... huh. That's interesting.

 

[Boiko]

Quit trying to argue like an adult for reasonable changes. Bowser is all about beating guys up cause he's so big and tough.

This is amazing and I'm putting the first half in my signature.

 

[Strong Badam]

Akhenderson is correct, hitboxes do not display correctly on slants. The graphical effects are rotated incorrectly compared to the character.

 

[JOE!]

"It's iconic"

"**** pokemon trainer, their swap isn't iconic"