Tier List Speculation

[Chevy]

No. Vocal minorities get stuff done. I'm a vocal minority of one, so I figure if I make an obscene amount of reasonable-sounding noise, I might be able to do the work of a normal vocal minority.

I've been practicing an absolutely ridiculous amount because I really want to establish myself as a credible source by placing well at (winning?) NWM7 so I can actually help get Bowser fixed. My passion is irrational as hell but it's also pretty damn real.

pmdt pls let me fix this character

@Akhenderson ... huh. That's interesting.

I appreciate your drive to fix King Koopa up right. It's a lot easier for me to appreciate cheesin' with Bows when I don't main him.
Let's make sure to play at NWM7.

 

[Strong Badam]

However, in 4.0, sheik is getting nerfed for absolute certain and the cast will be better balanced overall, so sheik and zelda will probably be roughly even.

Wait, what? This is entirely unsubstantiated. Speculation on what changes should happen or are likely to happen is acceptable as an aside to actual tier list discussion, but actually stating that X change will happen is very clearly misleading and doesn't belong here or anywhere on SmashBoards.

 

[otheusrex]

In my eyes, it's not even a major change. It forces a player to pick one character per game just like everyone else.

Sorry but that's about the dumbest thing I've ever read on this boards.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Okay, so instead of talking about why it shouldn't be there, why not instead explain why it should be there in the first place?
"Because its been there" isn't gonna fly.

 

[Foo]

Wait, what? This is entirely unsubstantiated. Speculation on what changes should happen or are likely to happen is acceptable as an aside to actual tier list discussion, but actually stating that X change will happen is very clearly misleading and doesn't belong here or anywhere on SmashBoards.

Alright, fine, I'll amend it then (even though I'd be shocked if sheik wasn't nerfed at all). In a patch where zelda isn't awful and sheik isn't vastly better than zelda, transform would be busted.

 

[Boiko]

Sorry but that's about the dumbest thing I've ever read on this boards.

If next to NOBODY uses it in competitive play at this moment. What makes it major? If they got rid of Fox's shine, that would be a major change. Marth's tipper sweet spot, major change. An extremely underused tool that's in the game, "because it's been that way," removing that is not major.

Edit: And to clarify, it by no means "defines" the character.

 

[Player -0]

The better question here is do YOU have a video example to substantiate how easy it is?
I'm a known good Samus player, playing against known good Zelda players. I know the character's strengths and weaknesses.

If Zelda is recovering high, you can't just shoot a missile or a charge shot to intercept her, and if you choose to, you sacrifice the ledge position. Any smart player would recognize you getting off of the ledge, cut Din's short and zip to it. Or, they can cut Din's short, make you rush back to ledge, and then go mid stage. There are a lot of mix up options here that you're neglecting.

Samus does not do a great job of threatening Zelda's space because without a charge shot, she doesn't have many answers to telecancel. She needs to be in Zelda's face to cut off the option, and the end lag on her ftilt is punishable by a kick. It sounds like you're the one who doesn't know the MU and you're just stating over generalizations that don't actually work.

As Samus you can stop teleporting with Zair from a decent distance.

If they cut Din's (which has quite a bit of endlag when you factor in teleport startup) then they'll either get hit by the missile if you put the missile in the right spot or you retake ledge if they cut it as soon as they see the ledgejump animation.

Don't use F-Tilt/normal spacing?

Going to check of videos of you vs. a Zelda, do you have any recommendations?

 

[Boiko]

As Samus you can stop teleporting with Zair from a decent distance.

If they cut Din's (which has quite a bit of endlag when you factor in teleport startup) then they'll either get hit by the missile if you put the missile in the right spot or you retake ledge if they cut it as soon as they see the ledgejump animation.

Don't use F-Tilt/normal spacing?

Going to check of videos of you vs. a Zelda, do you have any recommendations?

Zair isn't like, this godlike move that you can just use to remedy every situation. No vids, sorry, otherwise I would link them.

Either way, I'm not going to go through a back and forth about a situation. There's a theoretical answer to everything so the exchange will never end. At the end of the day, Samus still has a hard time with Zelda no matter what way you slice it.

Going all Samus at Nebulous next time so more vids will be up after that.

 

[Player -0]

Get a match of you vs. a Zelda.

It can be used for quite a bit of situations. Especially when the move has a startup (Zelda's Up-B) or a move with a long duration that beats out most of your long/midrange options (Nauru's). I obviously agree it isn't a cure all but it's still abusable to quite a degree.

 

[Chexr]

Woah ddd is low here. Move him up pls

He's really not that great. He could possibly be up in C but not much higher. He's big, slow out of shield, he can't combo very well, he's pretty easy to rack on damage edge guarding. His big range helps him against a lot of slower floaty characters but he struggles against almost everyone higher up.

Chexrs why is Marth in S tier

May I direct you to last weeks Wavedash Wednesday? If twitch would ever want to start working again. Darts set with SFAT at about 1:35. Then later Dart vs. Kels

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/641548690

Marth is fast and smooth with a big range to keep people out. His grab game is probably the best in the game as he is able to 0 - death a lot of people. He can gimp characters easily. In a nutshell he is one of the best characters all around. Fast, powerful, good grab game, easy to gimp with, great neutral with his large sword/dash dance.

@ Frost | Odds QUICK STOP HIM

What do you think Bowser has over everyone below him? He has some real bad as hell MU's

Basically Bowsers unwinable match ups amount to Sheik, Captain Falcon, Sonic. Everyone else is at least beatable. Fox and Falco have to be really on point and its such a dangerous match up for them on medium/small stages. Bowser's weight is his best asset as it allows him to win games where he loses in the neutral. His combo game is actually pretty decent as two or three hits will get you up to 60% and generally can kill you around 50-80%. His heavy armored nair allows him to break out of any combo that's not a true string. His up-b out of shield helps him a lot defensively against the most agressive characters. Though he has to be careful not to over use it because it can be predicted. His aerial command grab works great as a mixup. The only problem is that bowers is very vulnerable to being grabbed then combo'd and that a lot of his moves can be spot dodged. Bowser is a very threatening character and he's no gimmick. Play smart and you can win just like any other character. The fact that people are still sleeping on him is very scary. If they buff him anymore I'd probably have to start maining him.

DDD and DK aren't D tier get real

I mean maybe they could be in C tier, but for real they aren't that great. DK's ability to 0 - death people off grabs is pretty much what he has going for him. Plus his nair is real good, but his dash dance is just too slow for a character based around his grab game to put him that much higher. His spacing tools aren't really that great. He needs something else going for him other than just his grab.

 

[fAtomsk]

Wolfs initial dash is the best in the game, giving him an amazing dash dance. His overall mobility is very strong, which means that he is overall less polarizing in matchups. Falco has either very strong, or very weak matchups in 3.5 due to new stages and pm characters. This makes Falco significantly more vulnerable to counter picking and lowers his viability from top to arguably high tier.

Why do you say that? What aspect of his dash makes it the 'best in the game'?

 

[PlateProp]

I like the way all the transform keepers vanished after Aura asked them to explain why it should be kept

 

[Frost | Odds]

Basically Bowsers unwinable match ups amount to Sheik, Captain Falcon, Sonic. Everyone else is at least beatable. Fox and Falco have to be really on point and its such a dangerous match up for them on medium/small stages. Bowser's weight is his best asset as it allows him to win games where he loses in the neutral. His combo game is actually pretty decent as two or three hits will get you up to 60% and generally can kill you around 50-80%. His heavy armored nair allows him to break out of any combo that's not a true string. His up-b out of shield helps him a lot defensively against the most agressive characters. Though he has to be careful not to over use it because it can be predicted. His aerial command grab works great as a mixup. The only problem is that bowers is very vulnerable to being grabbed then combo'd and that a lot of his moves can be spot dodged. Bowser is a very threatening character and he's no gimmick. Play smart and you can win just like any other character. The fact that people are still sleeping on him is very scary. If they buff him anymore I'd probably have to start maining him.

Please stop with the misinformation.

1. Sonic loses to Bowser.
2. CF is kind of a crappy matchup at high level, but I don't buy that it's unwinnable. Regardless, he's not even in Bowser's top 5 worst MUs.
3. Sheik might be in the top 5, but she's certainly not his worst.
4. Bowser's weight is not his best asset.

The rest of this is mostly true I guess. He's not exactly "strong", but on my most optimistic days I might consider placing him as high as low-mid tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do you say that? What aspect of his dash makes it the 'best in the game'?

If you look at wolfs file, he has an initial dash of 2.1 which is the best in the game.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Nintendo/Sakurai didn't seem to have any qualms with removing all three transformations (two of which were introduced in Brawl) for Smash 4.

To be fair the removal of the transformations was mostly backed up by the fact that the 3DS couldn't handle them properly as much as it couldn't handle Ice Climbers.

 

[Rizner]

I like the way all the transform keepers vanished after Aura asked them to explain why it should be kept

At work, will give legitimate responses later. Much discussion has happened so I want to actually have proper time to give to stay caught up with it all.

 

[GP&B]

To be fair the removal of the transformations was mostly backed up by the fact that the 3DS couldn't handle them properly as much as it couldn't handle Ice Climbers.

Is that so? I figure that type of thing wouldn't be an issue.

 

[didds]

Please stop with the misinformation.

1. Sonic loses to Bowser.

Can you go into more detail on this one? I find it hard to believe that anyone with speed and a grab button loses to bowser, it can't be worse than even. Is it a lack of anti-cc options?

 

[Foo]

To be fair the removal of the transformations was mostly backed up by the fact that the 3DS couldn't handle them properly as much as it couldn't handle Ice Climbers.

I'm for removal of transform, but nothing nintendo does is evidence. I mean, they made tripping...

 

[Frost | Odds]

Can you go into more detail on this one? I find it hard to believe that anyone with speed and a grab button loses to bowser, it can't be worse than even. Is it a lack of anti-cc options?

It's mostly the range of Bowser's dash attack. Sonic just has no way to ever really get in on Bowser. His DD is great, but because he doesn't really have any terribly threatening spacing options, the only things Bowser really needs to watch for are grab (which is very close range and necessitates that Sonic be far, far inside Bowser's threat zone) and aerials (with which bowser can trade very favorably and easily).

I could, of course, be wrong; and this is all theorycraft as I'm both the best Bowser and the best Sonic in my region by far ( =/ ), but it's not like that MU's meta is particularly advanced anywhere at all.

 

[Strong Badam]

If you look at wolfs file, he has an initial dash of 2.1 which is the best in the game.View attachment 44484

There are other variables, like dash length (frames). For example, Fox and Falcon have a similar dash speed, but Falcon's dash is longer by 4 frames so he can DD longer. I don't know off-hand what Wolf's is but if it isn't 16 frames then Falcon has the best DD.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm really upset by the fact that you constantly tell me that wolf has the best DD offline

and then we talk online and you're correcting me

I'm done taking advice from you, you're turning me into an old cat lady

 

[Strong Badam]

I do not recall specifically saying he had the best DD, just dash speed, which is true. His dash is 11 frames, so yeah his dash is probably less distance overall than Falcon's due to having 5 frames fewer movement time.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Having shorter dash frames isn't always a bad thing - means you can RAR sooner!

 

[Narpas_sword]

@ Player -0

With all this Zair talk, are you thinking of 3.02 zair?

Because in 3.5 Zair is bad.
Situationally ok. But nothing to rely on by any means.

Just checking.

Also, grounded nayrys has intangibility on some frames.
Quite often you can missile > Zair, only to have the Zair not hit and the missile come flying back at you while you're recovering from the Zair

 

[Magus420]

Wolf's dash is faster than CF's for literally a single frame. Dash Initial Velocity is almost negligible because they immediately begin accelerating to Dash/Run Terminal at Accel A+B which takes only a few frames at most usually. Sonic's DD works differently because he has a modified Dash/Run Terminal during initial dash that you can't see (2.5 iirc?) so he's not DDing at nearly double CF speed.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Okay, so instead of talking about why it shouldn't be there, why not instead explain why it should be there in the first place?
"Because its been there" isn't gonna fly.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Better?

People want the PMDT to do a lot more work because of personal preference and a side of theory fighting. All well and good, but if brokenness is really the issue, have someone prove it in the realities of a match. If nobody can do that you have no business demanding anything.

"Because I want it this way" isn't gonna fly.

 

[didds]

"Because I want it this way"

mind finding this quote?

 

[Mera Mera]

I do not recall specifically saying he had the best DD, just dash speed, which is true. His dash is 11 frames, so yeah his dash is probably less distance overall than Falcon's due to having 5 frames fewer movement time.

Do you mean there are dashes that have a different number of frames where you can fox trot / rar?

Maybe PM has changed this from Melee (?) but from what I can see on here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183
for Captain Falcon, dash can be HELD for a maximum of 15 frames w/o forcing a run, but the dash animation will last 28 frames, and can be canceled on (after?) frame 20.

Though maybe from frame 15 on he has stopped?

@ Magus420 (or SB)
Do characters stop moving as of frame X as a rule (see chart in the link)? Or do they just decelerate as a result of you returning the stick to center (assuming a dash)?

I guess another thing to ask: is more info known on dash since this post? Or is there a post that gives more info / detail?

 

[Comeback Kid]

mind finding this quote?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/summing-up

 

[Rᴏb]

The problem with keeping transform lies mostly in how much it clashes with the PMDT's design philosophy. Based on the fact that literally every other transformation has gotten removed, Zelda's/Sheik's seems out of place. Admittedly, I guess you can say that keeping transform could fall under the philosophy of "bcuz melee" that the PMDT likes to abide by seemingly randomly and I couldn't really call you wrong.

I mean I guess it could potentially be broken, but personally I don't see it.

Also lol at G&W animation johns. I guess having the exact same throwing animation for every throw is silly and not something he necessarily needs... but apparently messing with G&W's animations is basically impossible which means they have to be remade from scratch, so lol gg.

 

[JOE!]

I like the way all the transform keepers vanished after Aura asked them to explain why it should be kept

 

[Boiko]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/summing-up

And here's the counter argument people who want transform to stay have made:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nothing

 

[didds]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/summing-up

the past 3 pages or so of this silly thread have been full of people laying out legitimate concerns with transform.

your hole is just a little deeper now. You could try addressing some of their points though to try and get yourself out if you really do feel passionately on the subject.

 

[Player -0]

@ Player -0

With all this Zair talk, are you thinking of 3.02 zair?

Because in 3.5 Zair is bad.
Situationally ok. But nothing to rely on by any means.

Just checking.

Also, grounded nayrys has intangibility on some frames.
Quite often you can missile > Zair, only to have the Zair not hit and the missile come flying back at you while you're recovering from the Zair

3.5 Zair bad = Lel. You can still use it in all the situations I described even if it is bad.

Even if Zelda reflects RIGHT before the missile hits you can do stuff like AD through missile -> Zair (free damage), threaten while in crawl, or be bombing to threaten SWD.

 

[Comeback Kid]

You have concerns, but as Ryoko already said they are unsubstantiated at this time.

You can burn yourselves out on this for a few more pages, but as I already said you have the right to your personal preferences. That is why nobody is going to agree, some like it and others don't.

Trying to make this out to be more than that isn't all that convincing from the arguments put forward. And you can't convince someone to like something so nobody should be doing that in the first place.

 

[Boiko]

You have concerns, but as Ryoko already said they are unsubstantiated at this time.

You can burn yourselves out on this for a few more pages, but as I already said you have the right to your personal preferences. That is why nobody is going to agree, some like it and others don't.

Trying to make this out to be more than that isn't all that convincing from the arguments put forward. And you can't convince someone to like something so nobody should be doing that in the first place.

It doesn't necessarily need be substantiated as broken when numerous people have said things like, "clashes with design philosophy", "other transforms have been removed". "makes no sense."

People who have been for it have not addressed any concerns. All they have said is "It doesn't seem broken to me" or "it's been that way."
These replies mean nothing, contribute nothing, and aren't worth stating. Other's such as Rizner, have made more well thought out responses that showed a different side of the coin. Although it still feels as though the majority doesn't understand why transform is still around.

My question stands: Why is transform in this game when it is atypical of design philosophies? Support for this can be found on the past three pages.

 

[Narpas_sword]

3.5 Zair bad = Lel. You can still use it in all the situations I described even if it is bad.

Even if Zelda reflects RIGHT before the missile hits you can do stuff like AD through missile -> Zair (free damage), threaten while in crawl, or be bombing to threaten SWD.

This is theory yea, not your actual experience?

! im talking Zair. Not crawl or SWD (LOL @ using SWD when nayrus is on)
Crawl is the option ive mentioned, and it's much better than zair.

Missile>Zair vs Nayru works in theory, but the timing and spacing to make it work in your favour is so tight.

So yes. You CAN use it.
But you wouldnt.

 

[eideeiit]

How about crawling under the missile?

Can crawl attack clank them?

Could even rolling work?

Clanking the missile with ftilt or jab?

 

[JOE!]

It bothers me aesthetically that the Missiles don't have "bomb hitboxes". Like Marth can Fair a power missile, clearly be inside an explosion, but not even just take damage or whatever. [/microjohn]

Anywho, Transform on Sheilda bothers me tremendously after seeing Samus/PT lose this mechanic to focus more or less on removing jank (Samus) and building up each character as their own unit (PT). Sheilda just sorta still has the ability to transform despite other examples of the mechanic being purged, with the defense essentially being "oh, its not broken yet" or "legacy", to which I reply that the ZSS transform was not broken, and what about the "legacy" of the PT mons who were around for like 5 years before they were all available in PM? Those were all changed for design reasons, not necessarily balance ones, but it seems Transform is resistant to this train of thought.

Is it because Sheik and Zelda would need new down B's? Seeing as Zelda has already seen radical change, and a melee semi-favorite Ganon has received huge change as well, I don't see how giving Sheik a new tool that was like, I don't know... a Olimar Nspec hop to cover the "loss of recovery" or Zelda a means of manually destroying Din's in a grander fashion to mirror Transform's current use for her would hurt too bad for fans of each character. If anything, it would let Zelda have some breathing room to be worked on as swapping to the superior sheik wouldn't be a factor anymore.

TL;DR : It just seems incredibly inconsistent with the rest of the roster who had similar mechanics. Ice/Fire mode and Offense Up don't even compare to swapping to a whole other character.