Tier List Speculation

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

as a melee zelda player and pm sheik player, i hate transform and always have. any way you look at it is poor design and inconsistent with the rest of the cast

Pretty sure I read from a fairly recent PMDT post that they have no intention on removing transform from Zelda/Shiek, but I could be wrong. Anyone have confirmation on this? If that's true, I hope they give it some more thought and reconsider.

 

[eideeiit]

Anyone feeling like ranting about G&W?

Because I sure as hell do but it's late and I don't feel like writing

I guess I'll just make a quick "**** all these" list:

-up-b: **** it

-throws: **** em

-dair: **** it

-nair: **** it

-ftilt: **** it, it's not even that good, just braindead

-dtilt: **** it

-hammer: **** it

-jab: **** it, it's not even that good, just ****ing annoying and I suck

-DACUS: **** it

I know he isn't that good and probably deserves some ridiculous tools, but **** is he an annoying son of a ***** to play against.

 

[.alizarin]

Pretty sure I read from a fairly recent PMDT post that they have no intention on removing transform from Zelda/Shiek, but I could be wrong. Anyone have confirmation on this? If that's true, I hope they eventually change their minds.

did they have a reason lol

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

did they have a reason lol

ehh, I don't remember. Pretty sure they had some kind of reason. And this might not be the entire PMDT's opinion on the matter.

 

[Binary Clone]

Anyone feeling like ranting about G&W?

Because I sure as hell do but it's late and I don't feel like writing

I guess I'll just make a quick "**** all these" list:

-up-b: **** it

-throws: **** em

-dair: **** it

-nair: **** it

-ftilt: **** it, it's not even that good, just braindead

-dtilt: **** it

-hammer: **** it

-jab: **** it, it's not even that good, just ****ing annoying and I suck

-DACUS: **** it

I know he isn't that good and probably deserves some ridiculous tools, but **** is he an annoying son of a ***** to play against.

GnW's throws should be changed. Having them all look identical is silly.

 

[Soft Serve]

GnW's throws should be changed. Having them all look identical is silly.

I agree with this. The throws were okay being ambiguous when the character was really bad anyway. Now that GnW is a good character I don't feel like he needs the silly throw animation, and it doesn't really add anything to him either. Maybe setting the throw animaiton to the same speed no matter the weight and then giving a direction indication with a light or something would be healthier.

GnW is a pretty good character design wise right now though, other than throws. People complain about up-b making things too safe, which generally I dont think is much of a problem. He is still putting himself above you which isn't a good situation for him, yeah he can come down with dairs but thats telegraphed, can be outspaced since his drift isn't too good, and you can shield grab it (landing hitbox is -8 on shield iirc). I kinda wish that if you hit him out of up-b he would lose his jump, so that way there was more reward for baiting it out and punishing it.

 

[jtm94]

Anyone feeling like ranting about G&W?

Because I sure as hell do but it's late and I don't feel like writing

I guess I'll just make a quick "**** all these" list:

-up-b: **** it

-throws: **** em

-dair: **** it

-nair: **** it

-ftilt: **** it, it's not even that good, just braindead

-dtilt: **** it

-hammer: **** it

-jab: **** it, it's not even that good, just ****ing annoying and I suck

-DACUS: **** it

I know he isn't that good and probably deserves some ridiculous tools, but **** is he an annoying son of a ***** to play against.

UpB is objectively amazing. SDI can break it's combos > anything
Throws are objectively amazing. Always lead into uair, but against SDI uair and he can't land UpB out of it.
Dair meteor is only active for one frame. Landing hitbox is amazing and if it were safe on shield it would need chainged.
Yeah nair is Strong Big.
Yeah.... ftilt lasts half a set. Still active in character select screen.
Dtilt wouldn't be as annoying if the animation matched the hitbox and it didn't hit aerial opponents so easily.
Hammer is whatever.
Jab is actually good. Like really good. It has weird KB though and can't jab reset opponent's at higher %, it just makes them airborne.
DACUS is good, but upsmash still takes 25 frames.

Once people start SDIing like Lunchables I think GnW could drop off a bit.

His throws being ambiguous is really good because it's a mixup that lets him combo far easier. It's much easier to UpB > things when the opponent is directly above you. I don't think he really needs that though. It'd probably be perfectly fine if they just generically threw you to the side in a not comboing fashion to maybe toss someone off stage. At that point they wouldn't really benefit to DI anywhere but up so they could probably have a different animation.

 

[trash?]

just a dearest reminder to this thread that transform is fundamentally broken, as a shielda player's usefulness depends entirely on how fast your PM loading device of choice is

I'd see it as a better strategy, in a better world where you don't need to ask someone "hey, how fast is read/write on that SD card because that literally changes how safe my transform is", but until then you are too setup-dependent to function properly, and are too inconsistent to be of any use

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nair is -1/-2 on shield because of the landing hitbox, unless it was changed more than just what they told us

I just tested, it's -5. I'm pretty sure it's always been that. 7 frames landing lag, 2 damage landing hitbox=2 frames shield stun.

 

[Soft Serve]

I just tested, it's -5. I'm pretty sure it's always been that. 7 frames landing lag, 2 damage landing hitbox=2 frames shield stun.

My testing/what the wolf chat tested simultaneously is getting it as -3. If it was -5 I'd completely change how I feel about wolf

Still though, -3 makes it the same as late dair. I dont know if I respect wolf's shield pressure as much now

 

[Player -0]

In exchange for more ice mode stuff make Samus' Down B the transform thing and remove bombs.

If you're really having that much trouble with Zelda stopping your missile spam you could just like, Zair? Sounds like a player problem.

ZSS from Samus was just an easter egg thing. If you want that then we should remove Samus' Side B?

PKT was 3 different characters, switching between would take forever and be kinda dumb.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Why?

She has to taunt, which isnt invulnerable, and can't be done in the air.
She also cant start in Ice mode <biggestsadface>

And for the record, id rather fight zelda than sheik. But i can cope with either.
Flatmate plays both. I'm all for transform, i think it's unique and great.

All i want is ice buffs =p

 

[Eisen]

In exchange for more ice mode stuff make Samus' Down B the transform thing and remove bombs.

If you're really having that much trouble with Zelda stopping your missile spam you could just like, Zair? Sounds like a player problem.

ZSS from Samus was just an easter egg thing. If you want that then we should remove Samus' Side B?

PKT was 3 different characters, switching between would take forever and be kinda dumb.

Who are you even talking to and what gives you grounds to talk about Samus? Pretty sure it's just a joke/troll post but it's so... out there... Remove Samus' bombs? Lmao.

 

[Player -0]

If ice is changed significantly to the point of transform then why would it be kept as a taunt instead of a move?

What are the specifications to talk about Samus and why do they exist.

50% of my post was hypothetical anyway.

 

[standardtoaster]

Samus cannot taunt transform in PM. The only way for her to transform is with her final smash.

 

[Boiko]

"Just zair" doesn't work. And why is 2 arbitrarily better than 3?

Regardless, it's funny you make all these mentions of trading things off to compensate for buffs which is the exact point I'm making.

And FTR more moves doesn't necessarily equal better character.

 

[trash?]

also, if we're making the comparison to samus' transform, then zelda/sheik needs to be able to ledge cancel it in the same way you can taunt cancel samus' taunt and still get the change with good timing

 

[Jolteon]

I just tested, it's -5. I'm pretty sure it's always been that. 7 frames landing lag, 2 damage landing hitbox=2 frames shield stun.

Fairly sure Wolf's nair landing hibox has a hitlag multiplier on it, which would affect its frame advantage on block.

 

[Player -0]

"Just zair" doesn't work. And why is 2 arbitrarily better than 3?

Regardless, it's funny you make all these mentions of trading things off to compensate for buffs which is the exact point I'm making.

And FTR more moves doesn't necessarily equal better character.

Cancels Nayru's and they get hit by the missile. I see no problems. If were talking about recovery then you can literally just ledgehog -> nB/F-Smash/Up-Smash. Again, a player problem.

2 is arbitrarily better because you don't have to switch between the unwanted character to get to the wanted one. In addition to it only being usable on the ground.

"Make Din's explode." 10/10, not like it doesn't already do that.

Not necessarily but as long as it fits into the kit and is usable it adds more options, especially if it added more options in the area the character lacked in.

 

[PlateProp]

Who ever said that lucario was 2nd on their tier list ( I think it was lunchables) is right. The ability to just chain into a grab on shields makes them useless, like srsly

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fairly sure Wolf's nair landing hibox has a hitlag multiplier on it, which would affect its frame advantage on block.

O ok in a bit I'll test actually hitting a shield instead of just testing for the numbers and doing the math

 

[DrinkingFood]

NEVERMIND I didn't account for the hitlag multiplier, it's -2 on shield
man **** hitlag multipliers
mess everything up

 

[941]

I finally broke down at one of my local weeklies and played Marth. This was the first time I played a character that I didn't main in tournament, and I actually had more success despite my only Marth experience being a few friendlies in Melee. Now I can't decide if Marth is really easy, or Ice Climbers are really bad.

 

[Chevy]

@ Boiko I think I've come around on the Marth matchup, don't think it's that bad for Samus any more. Crawl/up-smash/z-air help all of her matchups from Melee so much. I might remake my chart at some point.

Daily reminder that tethers are horrible, and fighting Fox is soul crushing now(not that it's that bad, but shine spike is way too easy).

Agree on buffing ice d-tilt, and f-smash, moves that bad aren't really on characters in this game anymore. Like, her worst move in 3.02(Ice f-smash) got NERFED. The ice block is hilarious, but bad. I'd like to see it not send the opponent into space without killing them on the rare occasion it ever connects.

I'd like to see bomb cancel z-air come back, it's not that good but it's another fun thing that would make help complete the giant kit Samus had in Melee. Standing grab matching Melee length would be nice too, given that there's no reason to ever use her standing grab as it is. It has more endlag and less active frames than her dash grab.

I don't think Samus needs any of these buffs, but they're all very minor or just questionable aspects of her design that I'd like changed.


Also, on the RNG discussion a while back: just had the best Grand Finals set in recorded PM history at ePG weekly against Bladewise's Peach. I'll post the video when it's up on Youtube, stream seems to have lost it. Suffice to say, Star Wars happened, everyone had a good time. RNG is fun.

EDIT: Tether mechanics are bad, tethers themselves are still a good recovery tool. It's just that the mileage you get from them depends so drastically on whether or not the opponent know to edge-hog, and whether they have a move that covers both drift options. It makes them very inconsistently good/bad, and it's frustrating to not have true mix-ups or player interaction at a certain point in your recovery. It takes so long for Samus to recover in the first place; bomb jumping all the way back to stage, air-dodging in to range and then hanging helplessly because you know when you pull up you're going to die isn't fun for anyone.

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

I finally broke down at one of my local weeklies and played Marth. This was the first time I played a character that I didn't main in tournament, and I actually had more success despite my only Marth experience being a few friendlies in Melee. Now I can't decide if Marth is really easy, or Ice Climbers are really bad.

3.51 will fix Ice Climber's bug(s), so they'll be better once it comes out.

 

[941]

3.51 will fix Ice Climber's bug(s), so they'll be better once it comes out.

This is true, but it's been almost 5 months since 3.5 was released, and since nobody seems to know when 3.51 will be released, I'm seriously considering dropping the character. Also, 3.51 will remove an ICs infinite, which is a significant nerf against heavy characters.

 

[Chexr]

Posting my tier list cause I think most that have been posted are off. Don't really feel like forming thoughts or arguments cause I'm lazy. Characters are ranked within respectable tiers.


S

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco


A

Roy
Wolf
Diddy Kong
Falcon
Ike
Lucario
Mario
ROB
Samus
Lucas
Sonic
Peach


B

Pikachu
Toon Link
Pit
Wario
Snake
Bowser
Metaknight
Zero Suit Samus
Game and Watch
Mewtwo


C

Jigglypuff
Ivysaur
Luigi
Yoshi
Zelda
Squirtle
Kirby
Link
Ganondorf
Charizard

D

Donkey Kong
Ness
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Olimar

 

[Narpas_sword]

I stopped reading at Sheik...

Seriously?

Top?

 

[Chexr]

Sheik is so good and easy to play at the same time. When you look at her matchups against the majority of the cast she has so many dominating match ups. At top top level play against other top tiers she dips a little bit below them but she is at least top 3 and I don't even think it's debatable to put her lower than that.

 

[Rizner]

Posting my tier list cause I think most that have been posted are off. Don't really feel like forming thoughts or arguments cause I'm lazy. Characters are ranked within respectable tiers.


S

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco


A

Roy
Wolf
Diddy Kong
Falcon
Ike
Lucario
Mario
ROB
Samus
Lucas
Sonic
Peach


B

Pikachu
Toon Link
Pit
Wario
Snake
Bowser
Metaknight
Zero Suit Samus
Game and Watch
Mewtwo


C

Jigglypuff
Ivysaur
Luigi
Yoshi
Zelda
Squirtle
Kirby
Link
Ganondorf
Charizard

D

Donkey Kong
Ness
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Olimar

Woah ddd is low here. Move him up pls

 

[Boiko]

Cancels Nayru's and they get hit by the missile. I see no problems. If were talking about recovery then you can literally just ledgehog -> nB/F-Smash/Up-Smash. Again, a player problem.

2 is arbitrarily better because you don't have to switch between the unwanted character to get to the wanted one. In addition to it only being usable on the ground.

"Make Din's explode." 10/10, not like it doesn't already do that.

Not necessarily but as long as it fits into the kit and is usable it adds more options, especially if it added more options in the area the character lacked in.

Things are never as easy as "just do this." What if she covers ledge with Din's, what if she burns you, what if there are platforms, what if she goes too far to follow up on? There are so many different circumstances for each individual situation. You can't just say, "just zair her to cancel Nayru's so she gets hit by the missile. That won't always work. It may work once or twice, and that's nice, but beyond that, no, probably not. Regardless of anything, Zelda forces Samus to play a more offensive game than she likes to, and that's a big component of what makes the MU difficult.

I do agree with down+b not making Din's explode, it'd be pretty lame. I haven't thought of anything else that would be a good fit for her though.

And one more thing, earlier I mentioned that either Zelda+Sheik should be balanced around each other, or they should be balanced independently. The biggest detriment to this, is if they are chosen to be balanced around each other, it forces the player to use both in order to play optimally, and not everyone may want to do that.

Stuff

Pretty much agree with everything Chevy said here. There's next to no reason to use standing grab, ice fsmash, or ice dtilt. Just seem like they have no real place in the game.

Also, really hoping you shot a bomb.

 

[Player -0]

If she's covering ledge with Din's then you can missile/nB her while she's using Din's. Zelda has no midgame options vs. Samus as long as Samus spaces vs. Zelda's kicks (she has no mobility) or even uses crawl.

Do you have a video example? Still sounds like a player problem.

 

[Juushichi]

By the way, if you're having problems with Mr. Game and Watch...

I would suggest probably dash dancing and camping him with the intention on forcing unsafe interactions.

Chexrs why is Marth in S tier

 

[Boiko]

If she's covering ledge with Din's then you can missile/nB her while she's using Din's. Zelda has no midgame options vs. Samus as long as Samus spaces vs. Zelda's kicks (she has no mobility) or even uses crawl.

Do you have a video example? Still sounds like a player problem.

The better question here is do YOU have a video example to substantiate how easy it is?
I'm a known good Samus player, playing against known good Zelda players. I know the character's strengths and weaknesses.

If Zelda is recovering high, you can't just shoot a missile or a charge shot to intercept her, and if you choose to, you sacrifice the ledge position. Any smart player would recognize you getting off of the ledge, cut Din's short and zip to it. Or, they can cut Din's short, make you rush back to ledge, and then go mid stage. There are a lot of mix up options here that you're neglecting.

Samus does not do a great job of threatening Zelda's space because without a charge shot, she doesn't have many answers to telecancel. She needs to be in Zelda's face to cut off the option, and the end lag on her ftilt is punishable by a kick. It sounds like you're the one who doesn't know the MU and you're just stating over generalizations that don't actually work.

 

[Jacob29]

B

Bowser

@ Frost | Odds QUICK STOP HIM

What do you think Bowser has over everyone below him? He has some real bad as hell MU's

 

[robosteven]

DDD and DK aren't D tier get real

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I hear the Transform argument every damn year for Zelda/Sheik, and you know what? It all amounted to "the sky is falling" every time. Too many "what-ifs" and not enough actual evidence of their theoretical dominance.

Zelda and Sheik have always been balanced independently of each other with a Transform sort of there to use for anyone willing for tradition's sake. It hasn't been shown to be an actual problem in usage. For years and years.

Considering PM's somewhat legendary power creep among characters not already top tier, it's hard to peg Zelda as a bigger threat than Sheik when in almost all those matchups, you would have lost to an equally competent Sheik to begin with. Zelda can only be improved so much due to her limited mobility, while other characters can hold a candle to Sheik.

You might have an argument if the movesets were literally doubled and you could switch between Zelda and Sheik's moves instantly. It doesn't work like that of course, and Transform asks the same thing of the opponent as it does of the user regarding character and player familiarity. People selectively complain about how it could be "broken" against unsuspecting players... but never when the player using Transform gets blown up for it.

 

[Boiko]

I hear the Transform argument every damn year for Zelda/Sheik, and you know what? It all amounted to "the sky is falling" every time. Too many "what-ifs" and not enough actual evidence of their theoretical dominance.

Zelda and Sheik have always been balanced independently of each other with a Transform sort of there to use for anyone willing for tradition's sake. It hasn't been shown to be an actual problem in usage. For years and years.

It doesn't necessarily matter if for "years and years" its usage hasn't been a problem. In a constantly evolving game, looking at the past, specifically previous versions, doesn't mean much.

Considering PM's somewhat legendary power creep among characters not already top tier, it's hard to peg Zelda as a bigger threat than Sheik when in almost all those matchups, you would have lost to an equally competent Sheik to begin with. Zelda can only be improved so much due to her limited mobility, while other characters can hold a candle to Sheik.

One could say your initial statement about this: "Too many "what-ifs" and not enough actual evidence of their theoretical dominance."

You might have an argument if the movesets were literally doubled and you could switch between Zelda and Sheik's moves instantly. It doesn't work like that of course, and Transform asks the same thing of the opponent as it does of the user regarding character and player familiarity. People selectively complain about how it could be "broken" against unsuspecting players... but never when the player using Transform gets blown up for it.

I'm not sure if you read the entire thread or not, but this point was addressed time and time again. You literally have a built in character select mind game that diminishes the effectiveness of counter picking.

I've made a lot of points regarding transform. I'm done discussing it until an original counterpoint presents itself. Although I appreciate your input.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Agree on buffing ice d-tilt, and f-smash, moves that bad aren't really on characters in this game anymore.

Bowser's usmash and fsmash
D3's fsmash
Marth usmash
Sheik side b

etcetera.

Not saying I disagree - I'd love those moves to get some love. They're not alone is all I'm saying.

Chexr's list is not worth discussing.

 

[Boiko]

Bowser's usmash and fsmash
D3's fsmash
Marth usmash
Sheik side b

etcetera.

Not saying I disagree - I'd love those moves to get some love. They're not alone is all I'm saying.

Chexr's list is not worth discussing.

DEFF once used Bowser's up smash to spike someone, it was hella cool.