Tier List Speculation

[Player -0]

Lucas = Combo'ing spacies is hellll. You wanted DJC Up-Air to Up-Tilt? Too bad the sweetspot is hellll. His grab is also too slow to regrab so lol.

Changing Bowser's crawl to be better sounds disgusting.

Switch Ness' and Fox's Up-B, seems legit.

 

[Eisen]

You don't really regrab spacies with Lucas grabs. The risk isn't even worth it, but if you did try it I'd advise trying upthrow on them instead. Idk, I don't think he should have free chaingrabs just cause other characters get it on spacies. I don't mind the uptilt sweetspot very much actually. I think spacing it properly and being rewarded for that is better than rewarding you for just using it. It's different with fair because fair is more for approach and putting up walls, idk maybe it was too good defensively and not offensively?

When was the last time you saw someone able to use Bowser's crawl? Literally all it does is armor through some stuff (very slowly, and can still be grabbed) and it's very easy to punish. The things it's best for is tanking weak aerials and punishing with something of Bowser's. I don't see why a slow movement option couldn't have some light hitboxes on each "thump" of his crawl at his inner arms/claws/belly. The screen shakes when he does it for crying out loud. Bowser's and spikey, so it'd make sense that him running into you would do some damage. Bowser has big time problems comboing well, not that I think he needs to be fox, but it would definitely do him some good to give him a mobility option that combos, which is currently something he lacks besides maybe dash attack?

Or, if not the crawl itself, at least give bowser his own mobile crawl attack like Samus. It just needs to be slow and not shine levels of combo potential.

 

[Player -0]

@ Frost | Odds Bowser talk go.

 

[ChiePet]

Changing Bowser's crawl to be better sounds disgusting.

Make him crawl like a cat, pls dear god do it.
Meowser.
#IWannaBelieve ~

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I assume the chances of a cat item Bowser costume from 3D world is entirely out of the question cuz it isn't present in Brawl, right? Cuz that's the first image that popped in my mind.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I assume the chances of a cat item Bowser costume from 3D world is entirely out of the question cuz it isn't present in Brawl, right? Cuz that's the first image that popped in my mind.

Arts and alts that way ->

http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-arts-and-alts-thread.340857/page-247

(bottom of the linked page is what you want)

 

[Jacob29]

@ Frost | Odds Bowser talk go.

He hasn't covered everything yet!?

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Eisen
1. SmUsh ROB is garbage
2. 3.02 ROB is better than SmUsh ROB
3. 3.5 ROB is better than 3.02 ROB
4. ROB is good in this version

 

[Eisen]

1. SmUsh ROB is garbage

lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

He really is. He's a worse brawl ROB basically, he lost a lot of tech brawl ROB had and a lot of important move properties like lingering fair, and didn't gain much in return

 

[Deleted member]

Well, comparatively speaking, rob losing what he had in brawl isn't a big deal since nearly every brawl character lost things going into s4.

But yeah uhh please don't buff rob in pm, its x10 easier to argue for nerfs than buffs lmao

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The only "buff I would ask for would be longer duration on gyro and/or a lower throw height. Nerf whatever else, but I would enjoy a more useful gyro.

 

[Deleted member]

Gyro is kind of silly right now, since it goes across the entire stage + his amazing glide toss. Other items like bombs, turnips, and bananas don't go as far/those characters often don't have as good of a glide toss

 

[Eisen]

He really is. He's a worse brawl ROB basically, he lost a lot of tech brawl ROB had and a lot of important move properties like lingering fair, and didn't gain much in return

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he got:

- Killing with upair/Robo-Hoo Hah
- more range on fsmash
- Lots of kill power on side B (even if a bad move)
- More range/power on Upsmash
- insanely low IASA on dtilt

In general I just feel like Smash 4 ROB is pretty equipped to deal with the Smash 4 meta. I'd argue he's top 10 in that game. Mechanics like ledge stealing and whatnot work out in his favor. Also I think he combos better, but then, there weren't really combos in Brawl to begin with, so....

Edit: And yeah, I think ROB's best trait is how well he uses glide toss. My only complaint is that the airdashes feel seem pretty bad considering they take up half his specials, but that may be untrue.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I hate to talk about brawl in a PM thread but ROB effectively lost all his mobility options going into SmUsh, hit harder than most characters because he had one of the best glide tosses and up-b was interuptable with aerials very early. His punish game is marginally better in SmUsh but his ability to initiate a punish is waaay worse.

Either way tho, if you think ANY incarnation of PM ROB is worse than either SmUsh or Brawl ROB then you aren't playing PM ROB well

 

[JOE!]

1. SmUsh is garbage

Fixd

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds Bowser talk go.

Uh, jesus. I kinda wish crawl was a bit faster, but it's strictly better than standing if you're not against Peach or something. I've played a bunch of games against Quaff recently that should help demonstrate why crawl is good. Giving Bowser a crawl attack would probably be a bad idea, because the burden of matchup knowledge for his opponents is already pretty harsh. We should be simplifying him, if anything.

I could maybe see a crawl attack to fill some kind of niche that may be left open if Bowser were to be redesigned (ie. stripped of some silly armor stuff, etc), but I don't really see such a niche opening up.

 

[jtm94]

The Sheilda talk is funny because both Zelda and Sheik lose to Fox. I don't know why I would ever choose to go down a few tiers to Zelda, a slower character, against Fox. Also I don't think Zelda beats Jiggs at all in Melee, I'd rather be Sheik. In PM having a better projectile and moves in general does help. Zelda kick feels so strange to land now, I miss the old hitbox v.v I land more kicks in Melee.

lol ROB needs to be better...

Nothing important seems to be going on so discuss Neon's top tier list:

S Tier

1. 2. 3. 4.

A+ Tier

5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15.

GnW being > Roy makes me spit milk out of my nose continually.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Also I don't think Puff beats Jiggs at all in Melee,.

wat

 

[DrinkingFood]

Jiggs>Puff>Jiggly>Jigglypuff
IMHO

 

[steelguttey]

The Sheilda talk is funny because both Zelda and Sheik lose to Fox. I don't know why I would ever choose to go down a few tiers to Zelda, a slower character, against Fox. Also I don't think Puff beats Jiggs at all in Melee, I'd rather be Sheik. In PM having a better projectile and moves in general does help. Zelda kick feels so strange to land now, I miss the old hitbox v.v I land more kicks in Melee.

lol ROB needs to be better...

Nothing important seems to be going on so discuss Neon's top tier list:

S Tier

1. 2. 3. 4.

A+ Tier

5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15.

GnW being > Roy makes me spit milk out of my nose continually.

what he says about wolf > fox

"
Wolf has his Side B which kills half the cast at like 80%, and can be combo'd into off of shine, or a variety of other moves. I think Wolf's neutral is certainly comparable to Fox's. The only thing Fox has over Wolf is his nair, but I think Wolf has a much more useful projectile, and I'm pretty sure his shield pressure is just objectively better.

I also think his combo game is arguably better, just because Wolf has a greater ability to juggle people, and can combo into kill moves more easily. Plus he has a variety of moves that can kill easily out of neutral or off a blaster hit, like fsmash, dsmash, and his up smash which can hit from far away if you dacus.

Wolf also has an undeniably better recovery. His side b adds a lot of versatility to his recovery game since it can be angled upwards, and it does so much damage and knockback on hit that trying to edgeguard is much more dangerous against Wolf than it is against Fox.

In general I think Wolf has a lot of very underrated moves, particularly side b, fsmash, and nair, all of which are extremely good in a lot of situations."

remember this is the dude that put olimar in top 15 in 3.0

 

[jtm94]

Jiggs is obviously stronger than Puff. I have typing johns. I fixed it.

I agree with better combo game, but I haven't seen enough Wolf to say that he has better shield pressure than Fox. Idk man. Fox's nair is a pretty big deal, but I guess punish game is also huge, though it doesn't matter if you can't get in. I don't know what Wolf's approaches are outside of laser and then go in, I just treat his nair like Fox's dair and shine afterwards.

Olimar isn't that bad. If it wasn't for grabs and attacks getting beat out because his pikmin are dying all over the place I don't think he's that bad, and in 3.02 I hated facing the character STRONGLY. I'd almost consider using him if his stuff was consistent. I just get salty when a Purple is lined up and I completely whiff a grab because why not have varying grab lengths.

 

[steelguttey]

varying pikmin lengths is really only a problem with purple but wavelanding purp side b gives you a free grab if it touches them.

yea olimar is good. people underestimate how stupid of a concept side b is, i feel bad using it

 

[Deleted member]

can we just agree to make olimar the new captain falcon so when anyone does absolutely anything with him we all just ****ing scream and pop off for no real reason

he is a captain

 

[Ningildo]

Give him a captain fabulous alt and we good, probably.

Purple toss on hit leads into so much, so trading in grab range for that seems fair to me. You'd keep track of your line anyway to know when to throw pikmin (whites mainly), when you can grab (any but purple) etc.

 

[Boiko]

The Sheilda talk is funny because both Zelda and Sheik lose to Fox. I don't know why I would ever choose to go down a few tiers to Zelda, a slower character, against Fox. Also I don't think Zelda beats Jiggs at all in Melee, I'd rather be Sheik. In PM having a better projectile and moves in general does help. Zelda kick feels so strange to land now, I miss the old hitbox v.v I land more kicks in Melee.

lol ROB needs to be better...

Nothing important seems to be going on so discuss Neon's top tier list:

S Tier

1. 2. 3. 4.

A+ Tier

5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15.

GnW being > Roy makes me spit milk out of my nose continually.

The combination of Zelda and Sheik literally loses to only Fox. I don't think anyone said Zelda beats Jiggs in melee, though. I said that Ice would switch to Zelda because she has more reliable kills on Jiggs. PM Zelda now has even more kill tools between, kicks, uair, utilt, fsmash. If you don't think there are any circumstances where switching to Zelda against Fox would be favorable, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that she can convert into insane percentages off of a single grab, or up smash out of shield is reason enough.

I don't even want to talk about Neon's tier list.

 

[King of Hoboz]

what he says about wolf > fox

"
Wolf has his Side B which kills half the cast at like 80%, and can be combo'd into off of shine, or a variety of other moves. I think Wolf's neutral is certainly comparable to Fox's. The only thing Fox has over Wolf is his nair, but I think Wolf has a much more useful projectile, and I'm pretty sure his shield pressure is just objectively better.

I also think his combo game is arguably better, just because Wolf has a greater ability to juggle people, and can combo into kill moves more easily. Plus he has a variety of moves that can kill easily out of neutral or off a blaster hit, like fsmash, dsmash, and his up smash which can hit from far away if you dacus.

Wolf also has an undeniably better recovery. His side b adds a lot of versatility to his recovery game since it can be angled upwards, and it does so much damage and knockback on hit that trying to edgeguard is much more dangerous against Wolf than it is against Fox.

In general I think Wolf has a lot of very underrated moves, particularly side b, fsmash, and nair, all of which are extremely good in a lot of situations."

remember this is the dude that put olimar in top 15 in 3.0

Awkward told me that Neon was talking about top 1 Wolf. Hmm..can't say I entirely agree with some of these points, but these points definitely make me the kind of person who want to put Wolf at top 2.

Recovery wise, Wolf's recovery isn't 'better' per say. The biggest reason it isn't is because of the risk of landing with Wolf over the other spacies. Wolf's advantage against the other spacies in recovery is having more/different options to hit the ledge when underneath, unlike Fox or Falco who get infinitely easier to edgeguard when they're below ledge. Beating Wolf's recovery is a matter of taking the ledge at the right time and forcing landing lag for landing on the stage like Sheik. Of course, it's not -aaas- simple as I say it is, but the lag makes his recovery more manageable than you think.

As for neutral, yeah, that blaster is totally more useful in forcing your way in, but Fox also has a speed advantage and his own blaster provide a tactic that Wolf doesn't get that's sooo much more risk free, aka non-interaction.

For the most part though, I agree with the rest; especially on Side-B, optimal Wolf will hit that **** almost all the time.

 

[Rizner]

The combination of Zelda and Sheik literally loses to only Fox. I don't think anyone said Zelda beats Jiggs in melee, though. I said that Ice would switch to Zelda because she has more reliable kills on Jiggs. PM Zelda now has even more kill tools between, kicks, uair, utilt, fsmash. If you don't think there are any circumstances where switching to Zelda against Fox would be favorable, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that she can convert into insane percentages off of a single grab, or up smash out of shield is reason enough.

I don't even want to talk about Neon's tier list.

Realistically, fox needs to mess up hard for Zelda to net that grab. A patient fox just wins that matchup. Sheik is better for fox once the fox stops giving you free stuff. Zelda bodies foxes who try to be aggro but don't have their tech skill down.

The only matchups I can think of where Zelda does better are like Ness and Ganon.

 

[Boiko]

Realistically, fox needs to mess up hard for Zelda to net that grab. A patient fox just wins that matchup. Sheik is better for fox once the fox stops giving you free stuff. Zelda bodies foxes who try to be aggro but don't have their tech skill down.

The only matchups I can think of where Zelda does better are like Ness and Ganon.

There are a lot more than that and you can't look at it from an individual match up perspective.
It's not like you just switch to one to cover the bad match up. Ideally, you would switch between them to utilize specific tools that provide a greater benefit in the specific situation.

 

[eideeiit]

The only matchups I can think of where Zelda does better are like Ness and Ganon.

Doesn't Sheik absolutely destroy Ganon? That's what I've heard but idk

 

[egumption]

RE: Neon's list -

I love playing Link as much as anyone else because he's not exactly the most skill-intensive, but I'd eat my johns if someone could actually give a compelling reason for Link being the 10th best character in this game. I don't think he's bottom five like some other people think, but man, top ten is an absurd placement for Link. In a game where Falcon is easily top 8, Samus is an easy top 15, alongside Ike, Rob and Yoshi.

Also, Wolf being better than Fox gives me a nice chuckle.

 

[Player -0]

Read opponent's jump in neutral -> Side B. Wolf tech ftw.

 

[Ripple]

You don't even have to read jumps, it hits some standing characters

 

[Strong Badam]

I find Wolf much easier to edgeguard than Fox. I can ledgestand edgeguard loop Wolf if I'm on point because his recovery actually has landlag.

 

[Boiko]

Agreed. Fox can land on stage and put out a hitbox/shield/run away faster than most characters can punish. Wolf pretty much needs to sweet spot or he's just going to be sent off stage again.

I respect Neon as a player, but his tier list doesn't really seem worth discussing. It carries similar trends to most of ours (Spacies, Roy, Sheik, Tink, Lucario, etc. all up high), but has some weird inconsistencies (Tink being 6th, G&W being above Roy, Link being in the top 15, no Samus, no Ike, No ROB). Not much more to say about it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I find Wolf much easier to edgeguard than Fox. I can ledgestand edgeguard loop Wolf if I'm on point because his recovery actually has landlag.

Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I say that Wolf's recovery is worse than Falco's due to not having any fast options to put himself onstage with no endlag. He's incredibly easy to edgeguard.

EDIT: also, Neon's list is terrible >.>

 

[Player -0]

I think startup hurts space based recoveries more than landing lag.

As Wolf you can DI up + get DJ back vs. Straight wrecked as Falco/Fox. It definitely hurts stage vs. Ledge mixups when using it high though.

 

[GabPR]

I Disagree. Take fox and falco for example, up b and side b are fairly linear and up b starting time takes a while so you have time to punish it. However, thx to having almost no end lag, if you somehow messed up then the tables are immediately turned against you as fox and Falco both have no endlag on both side b and up b, so they can punish fairly quickly or gain stage positional advantage. I guess Falco deserves this trait more since his recovery is wayyy more predictable short, but Fox leaves little room for mistakes. Wolf on the other hand, if he does not sweetspot the ledge and you made a mistake, the landing makes it so it sort of gives you time to say get back to the ledge and reset neutral or even punish them if you react quickly enough.

 

[Deleted member]

i have a harder time edge guarding wolf than fox/falco but thats probably because im still not used to it. huge lack of good wolf players.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Fox's side b has 20 frames of landing lag.