Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

I've seen KirbyKaze talk about how the MU in Melee is actuallye even as long as the Sheik plays it right. It requires her to play in way she normally wouldn't, like more needle, more camping, less grab, more Nair. But I'm probably wrong anyway and you are more experienced then me so I'll take your word for it.

shroomed/hbox should be a set people watch to get an understanding of the more modern MU. it's slow as hell, almost brawl-like at times (which is a given for awkward jigglypuff matches, really, but especially so here), but it's not too bad for sheik anymore, just understand you're doing everything on-stage and going for kills off the top

 

[Ogopogo]

In all honesty I don't think there should be any characters at the bottom of the tier list since none of the characters are that bad.

PM is pretty balanced compared to Melee and Brawl but there's always gonna be characters that are worse than others, as long as they are different.

 

[ChiePet]

More often than not when characters are placed at the "Bottom" of a tier list, its usually they're Mid at the worst, just due to no blank place holders for the bottom tier levels that if a character is still regarded as Mid Tier but in the bottom 8 or so, they're just considered/referred to as Bottom tier. IIRC.

 

[trash?]

who's actually at the bottom of a tier list doesn't really matter, so much as the gaps of good-ness between tier spots

this is important, because as a player, you want a sweetspot between someone that performs well, and someone that fits how you play the game. when those gaps are so close where the only real worst character is bad because of a recovery bug (olimar), then you can fit into your comfort zone incredibly easily, without needing to care about who's top 5 or whatever

 

[Life]

There are very few outright low tiers in PM 3.5. There are two characters who don't function properly, Olimar and ICs, and people consider them low tier because their bugs can screw you over sometimes. Beyond that it's not obvious at all if there are any truly bad characters. (IMO the worst after them is Pit, but there are still a few people who believe in him--pretty much every notable 3.02 Pit dropped him so that doesn't help matters.)

 

[Giygacoal]

In all honesty I don't think there should be any characters at the bottom of the tier list since none of the characters are that bad.

I think it's more of a case that the lower tier characters simply have fewer advantageous matchups and even matchups than the higher tier characters.

 

[jtm94]

ICs and Olimar are labeled the worst and I still lose to them. This game is great.

Zelda vs Puff feels terrible. Fortunately Dins fire can kind of do things and Puff dies at 40.
Sheik vs Puff feels terrible. Nothing does anything, Sheik gets baired, but at least she isn't slow.
GnW vs Puff feels AMAZING. Almost makes me enjoy facing Puff. Just bacon into nair, it's great.

I agree with everyone who thinks Link dropped in 3.5. Really glad he got the better jumpsquat though, but dislike bomb changes. Who has a better UpB in Melee Link/Yink? Wouldn't it make sense for him to have Link's Melee UpB not Yink's?

 

[Beorn]

ICs and Olimar are labeled the worst and I still lose to them. This game is great.

Zelda vs Puff feels terrible. Fortunately Dins fire can kind of do things and Puff dies at 40.
Sheik vs Puff feels terrible. Nothing does anything, Sheik gets baired, but at least she isn't slow.
GnW vs Puff feels AMAZING. Almost makes me enjoy facing Puff. Just bacon into nair, it's great.

I agree with everyone who thinks Link dropped in 3.5. Really glad he got the better jumpsquat though, but dislike bomb changes. Who has a better UpB in Melee Link/Yink? Wouldn't it make sense for him to have Link's Melee UpB not Yink's?

Links Melee up-b is much worse than Y.Links. This was a buff to Link in PM, but a nerf from 3.02.

The jump squat was a great quality of life buff for Link. I actually love the bomb changes. I don't agree with the amount of knock back growth the bombs have. I would much prefer the more combo-centric knock back from melee with slightly more knock back growth to make bomb jumping as useful as it is atm. If you haven't already hit anything with your up-b air or ground.

 

[Idostuff]

So is this thread just over now? I feel as though we have come to a general consensus on a tier list for the most part.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Then someone will win a major with a non top tier and people will start screaming nerf...

 

[Ripple]

Then someone will win a major with a non top tier and people will start screaming nerf...

Aftershock is coming...

 

[NTG]

Aftershock is coming...

Just better hope dirtboy345 doesn't show up

 

[steelguttey]

Aftershock is coming...

lpag is going to aftershock?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would also point out that the lack of "evidence" makes it harder to have strong opinions compared to say last year where there were lots of high level matches. A lot more people are basing their opinions off of locals, which aren't the best quality so they are more reserved. Plus its a melee renaissance, so...

 

[PlateProp]

Just better hope dirtboy345 doesn't show up

Don't worry, i'm going in his place

So's Dad

 

[trash?]

there's no such thing as a solidified tier list. the fact that melee is still argued after all these years is proof of that, and if you need to go further, ST, a game older than a majority of the people reading this post, has had tier list changes only two or three years back

there should be a betting game for aftershock. which character will everyone complain about once it's over

 

[Boiko]

there's no such thing as a solidified tier list. the fact that melee is still argued after all these years is proof of that, and if you need to go further, ST, a game older than a majority of the people reading this post, has had tier list changes only two or three years back

there should be a betting game for aftershock. which character will everyone complain about once it's over

 

[Beorn]

there's no such thing as a solidified tier list. the fact that melee is still argued after all these years is proof of that, and if you need to go further, ST, a game older than a majority of the people reading this post, has had tier list changes only two or three years back

there should be a betting game for aftershock. which character will everyone complain about once it's over

I don't know guys... I don't feel like people cry op when someone wins now.

We all pretty much knew Ike was really good before Ally started winning stuff. I think it would be pretty hard to surprise people at this point. If I see an Ivy or Mk do well it wouldn't surprise me and I don't think anyone would be crying for nerfs. If a Roy or Falco or even Wario wins a major tournament, it wouldn't be crazy to suggest nerfs. I would hardly say calling for nerfs for good characters is whining or jumping to conclusions. We all know who is really good, and they probably do deserve nerfs. The people that would call for said nerfs just don't have evidence yet. A major tourney win would give them that ammo.

 

[trash?]

actually MK's been mid-low at best on most tier lists

why is he that low? iunno. I mean beyond "he now has to care about projectiles" I don't think the changes were that overbearing

 

[JOE!]

Some people are afraid to win a major since their character would get nerfed after

 

[941]

Some people are afraid to win a major since their character would get nerfed after

All of us bottom-tier mains are just sandbagging until everyone else gets nerfed, then we will rise to the top.

 

[Beorn]

actually MK's been mid-low at best on most tier lists

why is he that low? iunno. I mean beyond "he now has to care about projectiles" I don't think the changes were that overbearing

When I said Ivy and MK I was giving an example of characters that aren't considered amazing right now. When I said Wario, roy, and Falco I was referencing characters that probably need to be looked at. What I'm getting at is that if the not amazing characters (MK, Ivy ect) won I don't think people would cry nerf, and if the characters that are considered good (wario roy falco ect) won it shouldn't be surprising to see people come out of the crevasses of smash boards to bring up possible nerfs. I just don't think is uncalled for that people want the best characters nerfed a bit and the bad ones buffed a bit. I wouldn't call it "crying for nerfs" or "whining" It just makes since in a game striving for balance.

 

[Hylian]

I specifically haven't made a tier list in 3.5, feels like there is too much match-up variance and overall balance to place them in order, tried a couple of times but eh.

 

[Zigludo]

if this was melee it would probably make a lot more sense but marth doesnt have his ridiculous kill power from melee and even mediocre foxes can still combo the **** out of you. its a new game guys.

I've been trying to make sense of this statement for a while and I just can't do it. How exactly has Marth lost any of his kill power from Melee in the Fox MU?

Not to mention the significant nerfs to Fox, not the least of which is the fact that grab beats shine in PM which radically changes Marth's tech chase against spacies.

 

[Soft Serve]

I've been trying to make sense of this statement for a while and I just can't do it. How exactly has Marth lost any of his kill power from Melee in the Fox MU?

Not to mention the significant nerfs to Fox, not the least of which is the fact that grab beats shine in PM which radically changes Marth's tech chase against spacies.

Stages. Fox can ban fd/fod against marth no matter what, fox wins the mu on every other stage significantly. Larger stages on average from melee (size and blastzones) also means marth either struggles to kill or has more stage needed to cover to carry fox off stage. Meanwhile fox wins on small platformed stages and large stages because he wins neutral straight up. Fox has no significant nerfs in pm that change the way the mu is played, other than wake up shine not being as good.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much stages yeah. fox players being willing to make trades more is certainly not helping either.

 

[Zigludo]

I guess I'm just not seeing the drastic effect that the stage list changes are making. Admittedly I'm not a Marth player but of the three most common starters (Stadium, BF, Smashville) only PS2 seems to be skewed in Fox's favor from what I know, and even then there are PM Marth players that either counterpick Fox to PS2 (Axe) or at least switch to Marth when being counterpicked to PS2 (Emukiller).

As for the idea that Marth has to ban Dreamland, Norfair, Yoshi's Brawl and DP... lol what kind of godawful stage pool is your scene running? Just because certain stages are viable in a vacuum, doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them all legal at the same time.

And I honestly don't think Marth's CP options are worse in a bo3 than they are in Melee. If he bans FoD and FD you can take him to Yoshi's Melee and WarioWare.

fox players being willing to make trades more is certainly not helping either.

could you expand on that statement?

 

[Deleted member]

could you expand on that statement?

uhh basically fox is just EZmode compared to melee so people nair spam a lot more, and like you can pivot grab and kill them but youre going to mess up and get killed right back sometimes

its just a different game man, you can draw parallels but its just not the same in a lot of ways

 

[Zigludo]

uhh basically fox is just EZmode compared to melee so people nair spam a lot more, and like you can pivot grab and kill them but youre going to mess up and get killed right back sometimes

its just a different game man, you can draw parallels but its just not the same in a lot of ways

sounds like that would only affect the MU if your opponent has bad tech skill.

 

[trilok]

I guess I'm just not seeing the drastic effect that the stage list changes are making. Admittedly I'm not a Marth player but of the three most common starters (Stadium, BF, Smashville) only PS2 seems to be skewed in Fox's favor from what I know, and even then there are PM Marth players that either counterpick Fox to PS2 (Axe) or at least switch to Marth when being counterpicked to PS2 (Emukiller).

As for the idea that Marth has to ban Dreamland, Norfair, Yoshi's Brawl and DP... lol what kind of godawful stage pool is your scene running? Just because certain stages are viable in a vacuum, doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them all legal at the same time.

And I honestly don't think Marth's CP options are worse in a bo3 than they are in Melee. If he bans FoD and FD you can take him to Yoshi's Melee and WarioWare.

Atleast in melee, pokemon stadium has been currently perceived as being marth favored against fox. Combined with fox nerfs and the lack of stage transforms, which used to favor fox and now marth doesnt have to deal with that, it is probably even more in marth's favor in PM.
FoD however can be argued to be spacies favor, and not marth nowadays.

Personally, in the matchup I would much rather be marth in pm 3.5 and melee, but I can see how the perception in this matchup can be very controversial. I also prefer marth vs fox more as marth in PM compared to melee with the change in character nerf/buffs and the change in stages considered.

This is not really shots against anyone in particular, but I think people need to judge fox more of how he is practically played in the meta with good players of similar skill (which I guess is rather hard to define) rather than arguing about some theoretical TAS level fox combined with top level players who have been playing this game for years and then comparing it to the characters of players who may not have played this game all that long and don't have 10+ years of experience with their character.

 

[eideeiit]

PS2's platforms are higher than neutral PS1's so Marth's f-smash doesn't cover them as well and thus it's worse for Marth than in Melee. Of course as a whole it's better than in melee tho.

 

[Zigludo]

Out of curiosity, why would FoD favor Fox instead of Marth? Low ceiling?

 

[Ripple]

In today's metagame, marth favors space over small stage.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

FoD has a pretty high ceiling actually. It's a lot higher than you would expect.

 

[Binary Clone]

sounds like that would only affect the MU if your opponent has bad tech skill.

That's not really true. Fox being easier to play means that any Fox is going to be more consistent than before, so your opponent's tech skill isn't really a factor - the Fox's consistency is unrelated to the opponent's tech.

Beyond that, he also listed a new tool that doesn't even exist in Melee that Fox can use in pivot grabs, which affects the MU regardless of tech skill as well. I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that.

There's also the buff to spacies that nobody ever mentions in RAR, which means advancing bair to kill/combo/etc. is much easier, faster, and more versatile.

 

[_A1]

Honestly how is it not obvious that most spacies are just Melee players that don't care about Brawl tech like RAR.

 

[Player -0]

FoD has a pretty high ceiling actually. It's a lot higher than you would expect.

It's actually the same as BF. I expected it to be higher than BF but lower than DL's. The camera is just centered lower and FoD has a lower blastzone.

Honestly how is it not obvious that most spacies are just Melee players that don't care about Brawl tech like RAR.

I wouldn't exactly say that. I barely play Melee and I enjoy playing Fox. I know you said "most" but I'm betting more than a few solely P:M players play Fox too.

 

[JOE!]

It's actually the same as BF. I expected it to be higher than BF but lower than DL's. The camera is just centered lower and FoD has a lower blastzone.


I wouldn't exactly say that. I barely play Melee and I enjoy playing Fox. I know you said "most" but I'm betting more than a few solely P:M players play Fox too.

Wrong, FoD has a higher ceiling and shorter sides

 

[Binary Clone]

Honestly how is it not obvious that most spacies are just Melee players that don't care about Brawl tech like RAR.

But that's not relevant.

Just because a lot of Fox players are Melee Foxes and ignore tools they have in the MU does not mean that those tools don't apply to the MU.

 

[Soft Serve]

Fox can also sh bair ac in pm (still I think?) Which is crazy good.