Tier List Speculation

[LordKKs]

"Exactly" wasn't the right word, but pit didn't deserve that much nerf..T-T

 

[MLGF]

Oh, that?
...Yeah... Pit is the only one of the 3.0 tops that I feel got nerfed extremely hard in 3.5 sadly.
I still hope someone will prove me wrong though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Zards DD is a false threat to anyone who realizes that his aerials can't be safe on shield. They can all be grabbed early or later unlike a knee at all. The only way to make fair safe is to use it while retreating. Hence, 0 approach options.

Yeah I posted the frame data on this a while ago. His best aerial for shield pressure is dair, which is still pretty underwhelming not even considering the start-up.

Even heavy space control/DD threat characters like Marth still have better aerials and dtilt. Zard has difficulty with match-ups that easily force him to approach as well.

I don't think these things make it the end of the world for him, but its worth acknowledging. Most people don't know the match-up and just lose free to jab still anyways. The concept of playing around a good anti-air is really hard to grasp for some reason.

 

[JOE!]

Zard is not a bad character @ Idostuff , it's more he is a solid mid due to his inability to force his way in or attack "safely" despite his incredibl e speed and offense once he gets a hit.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

remember back in 2.6 when I said ganon had a better neutral game than zard and nobody believed me

well if it wasn't true then it's kinda true now

 

[Hylian]

Since we are talking about bad characters now. I think Link is bottom 5. All of the things people complained about got nerfed, and then so did everything else. He has trash tier mobility, with a terrible dash speed, DD length, 2nd worst WD, and jump height that goes nowhere. His boomerang doesn't set up for combos anymore until higher %s. Link doesn't have a move that he can jump offstage and intercept your recovery with, and then make it back himself, since all his aerials that he could survive using are too weak to kill people. Link's best bet at edgeguarding is to try and get his opponent to miss their sweetspot so Link can get them with a grounded Up-B. Here are some of my thoughts on his changes:

Warrented Nerfs:
-Boomerang: throw speed, it was way too spamable.
-Recovery: that was the theme of 3.5, fine with this.
-Uptilt: now it doesn't chain into itself x3 after d-throw.
-Dash Attack- same as Uptilt, doesn't chain into itself x3.

Gone Too Far Nerfs:
-Nair: PMDT decided to normalize KBG on sex kicks as if they were all created equal. Only Link's sweetspot (on his foot) nair does 11%. Fox's sex kick doesn't need to be sweetspoted to do 12%, plus his SHFFL speed is twice as fast as Link's. Link used to be able to jump off stage with a nair to stuff recoveries, now the move is so week that this just resets their UP-B and makes it easier for the opponent to come back.
-Boomerang: KB angle. The point of this move is to set up for a combo off a hit confirm, it no longer does that reliably
-F tilt: i always thought of this move as the inverse of dash attack, >tilt has slow startup, low endlag, and high horrizontal KB. Dash attack has low startup, high endlag, and high verticle KB. Ftilt used to kill horizontally at ~120%. Now it will never kill anyone, and frankly, this move serves no purpose in Link's current kit.
-Bombs: you wont see this on Link's changelog, but his bombs only go half the distance they used to when you throw them.

side question: i swear aerial up-B doesn't go as far. Either the hoz drift is less, verticle height is less, or the grab box is just smaller. There have been so many times where i have missed the ledge that i think i would have gotten if it were 3.0. Is there any truth to this?

Hmm. I don't think Link is great but I also don't think you have a very good understanding of the character from this post. First of all, link is AMAZING at edgeguarding. I cannot emphasise this enough, it is the only thing really that lets him compete with characters currently. Nair is a godsend, and just outright beats most characters recovery options. You can kill spacies at 0% from a bthrow like guaranteed he's so good at gimping lol. He can easily make it back running of stage and fastfalling nair, or just using nair anywhere offstage really. Grounded up-b isn't great for edgeguarding unless you force them into it, you should be proactive about edgeguarding most characters with link not reactive.

For your gone too far nerfs:

Nair: Nair is actually better now. Yes. It's better. Not only can you still edgeguard and kill perfectly well with it, you gain the ability combo weak nair into fair on or offstage. You go from being able to kill people at very high %'s in 3.02 with nair on stage, to losing that but instead being able to kill them at EARLIER %'s by comboing nair into fair. This combo is easy and I do it often.

Rang: Angle is fine, you just need to sweetspot .

Ftilt: I disagreed with it being nerfed in the first place so yeah I agree with you.

Bombs: I also agree with this, and was not happy with this change.

His up-b does not go as far this is correct, it's more similar to young links in melee now.

 

[Player -0]

Hmm. I don't think Link is great but I also don't think you have a very good understanding of the character from this post. First of all, link is AMAZING at edgeguarding. I cannot emphasise this enough, it is the only thing really that lets him compete with characters currently. Nair is a godsend, and just outright beats most characters recovery options. You can kill spacies at 0% from a bthrow like guaranteed he's so good at gimping lol. He can easily make it back running of stage and fastfalling nair, or just using nair anywhere offstage really. Grounded up-b isn't great for edgeguarding unless you force them into it, you should be proactive about edgeguarding most characters with link not reactive.

For your gone too far nerfs:

Nair: Nair is actually better now. Yes. It's better. Not only can you still edgeguard and kill perfectly well with it, you gain the ability combo weak nair into fair on or offstage. You go from being able to kill people at very high %'s in 3.02 with nair on stage, to losing that but instead being able to kill them at EARLIER %'s by comboing nair into fair. This combo is easy and I do it often.

Rang: Angle is fine, you just need to sweetspot .

Ftilt: I disagreed with it being nerfed in the first place so yeah I agree with you.

Bombs: I also agree with this, and was not happy with this change.

His up-b does not go as far this is correct, it's more similar to young links in melee now.

- Regarding Up-B I hear that it's more similar to YLink's now. Can I get some numbers or something for 3.02 vs. 3.5 for horizontal distance and vertical distance differences and stuff?
- Do you have a timestamp of somewhere you did Nair -> Fair? In 3.02 you could weak Nair to Fair iirc (I could at least), I'm not exactly sure if you're referring to what I'm referring to which is why a video would get the point across the best.

- Do you know if there's a chance that Zairs will get an autocancel-esque window? It would be cool if a SH no FF Zair got like a little longer than 3.02's landing lag (what was 3.02's Zair landing lag btw?)

 

[Hylian]

Not sure how to tell you in numbers how much less far it goes >_>.

I have sooo many videos online, tried looking through some and didn't find it lol but it probably happens in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVCOIt6h_8I&t=18m28s lol. That is a good match of my 3.5 link regardless though.

Zair had 10 frames of landing lag in 3.02, it currently has 15. It's fine.

 

[DrinkingFood]

- Regarding Up-B I hear that it's more similar to YLink's now. Can I get some numbers or something for 3.02 vs. 3.5 for horizontal distance and vertical distance differences and stuff?
- Do you have a timestamp of somewhere you did Nair -> Fair? In 3.02 you could weak Nair to Fair iirc (I could at least), I'm not exactly sure if you're referring to what I'm referring to which is why a video would get the point across the best.

- Do you know if there's a chance that Zairs will get an autocancel-esque window? It would be cool if a SH no FF Zair got like a little longer than 3.02's landing lag (what was 3.02's Zair landing lag btw?)

Idk anything about nair->fair but here's a gfycat of nair being amazing

 

[Blazing Ambition]

with all this talk of nerfed characters
i can take solace in the fact that falcon's uair will remain busted for ages to come
long live the dream

 

[Hylian]

Idk anything about nair->fair but here's a gfycat of nair being amazing

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nair is even better at comboing now.

 

[Deleted member]

Both Marth and Roy's dtilts IASA frame 20 in both games.

I've said this to you IRL and you told me it was 19

I'm never able to trust anything ever ; _ ;

 

[DrinkingFood]

He probably meant 19 frames duration which is the same thing
Fun fact: ROB jab is 20 frames duration

 

[Deleted member]

He probably meant 19 frames duration which is the same thing
Fun fact: ROB jab is 20 frames duration

We were talking about IASA, I remember it clearly. Sometimes I think strong bad tells me different answers for frame data so I'll grow up to be a crazy old cat lady

 

[Strong Badam]

He probably meant 19 frames duration which is the same thing
Fun fact: ROB jab is 20 frames duration

Their durations are like 40, IASA is 20.

 

[un.dead]

with all this talk of nerfed characters
i can take solace in the fact that falcon's uair will remain busted for ages to come
long live the dream

The irony of that Zard's tag tho

 

[Boiko]

So, nobody has made a tier list in quite some time. Following a similar format to Strong Bad's, I made the one below. If you would like to provide some insight, please do, but don't just write one sentence saying something is wrong please.

I think the line of viability begins to fade around the B+ tier, where it's almost necessary to have a secondary to cover your character's bad match ups.

Spoiler

S

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A+
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A
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B+
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B
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C+
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[Strong Badam]

-100 points for using Biker Wario icon.

Seems mostly fine I guess, obviously most of my criticisms would be making it closer to the tier list I posted. I think it's really obvious to most high level players that Ike is decidedly not that good; actually losing at least 4-6 to all of Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco is hugely detrimental to his viability even though he handles almost all other MUs fine (he loses to random characters like Dedede and Yoshi, but again not particularly relevant because there are 0 or 1 players of each of those characters that play at a level we consider). Ally being able to beat something like the ~8th best Fox player in the world who's also rotating into other characters and playing badly isn't really an overwhelmingly strong point on Ike's resume and it is amusing to me how most people didn't rate him that highly pre-Shots Fired. Do note that Ally lost 3-0 to Armada's Fox the week prior to Shots Fired, lol.

 

[steelguttey]

does jigglypuff even have any good matchups in this game?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

She fairs well against Fire Emblem.

 

[steelguttey]

ike vs jigglypuff seems awful. like jiggs gets hit by a fair and dies at 20% bad

 

[Boiko]

-100 points for using Biker Wario icon.

Fixed it just for you.

Seems mostly fine I guess, obviously most of my criticisms would be making it closer to the tier list I posted. I think it's really obvious to most high level players that Ike is decidedly not that good; actually losing at least 4-6 to all of Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco is hugely detrimental to his viability even though he handles almost all other MUs fine (he loses to random characters like Dedede and Yoshi, but again not particularly relevant because there are 0 or 1 players of each of those characters that play at a level we consider). Ally being able to beat something like the ~8th best Fox player in the world who's also rotating into other characters and playing badly isn't really a strong point on his resume and it is amusing to me how most people didn't rate him that highly pre-Shots Fired. Do note that Ally lost 3-0 to Armada's Fox the week prior to Shots Fired, lol.

Yeah, that is a very good point. I feel like maybe Ike hasn't had too much top level exposure and perhaps people are just being caught off guard by Ally using him as well as he does. I've personally been rating Ike pretty highly after Ally tore up The Flex Zone, beating Malachi (Peach), Gurukid (Wario), Envy (Fox), Eli Bumblebee (Luigi), VaNz (Sheik), and Professor Pro (Snake) without dropping a game. I didn't doubt it being Ally's skill or anything. Anyway, my point is maybe people are starting to learn the match up more, in fear of new Ally inspired Ike players starting to surface. So yeah, I think I could get on board with dropping him a tad, especially considering he does lose a lot of top tier MUs.

How do you think he fares against Roy?

 

[Strong Badam]

Ike does fine against Roy in my experience. It's basically even. I'm just much less comfortable with Ike than I am with my other characters so I often do more poorly vs Sethlon/Lunchables with Ike than I do with DK/Wario. Ike is a very hard character to optimize.

ike vs jigglypuff seems awful. like jiggs gets hit by a fair and dies at 20% bad

I think this is funny to hear, because Hungrybox was starting to demolish Ike players in 2.1. He 2-0'd Vro at Big House 2, for example. And we know that Ike was much better back then. Perhaps the new Nair is significant, but I'd need to see it played out again. I doubt it's heavily in Ike's favor if at all.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ike vs jigglypuff seems awful. like jiggs gets hit by a fair and dies at 20% bad

The whole thing is like marth syndrome for ike

 

[Player -0]

Ike can trade with Puff's Bair with his Fair so I disagree. Puff needs to play a really up close game I think. Should probably watch the 2.1 vids.

 

[MLGF]

Jiggs can DI out of the new nair pretty easy, so it's not much of a help.

Ike:Jiggs in theory, I think, could be somewhat difficult. Although I'm not too sure on the MU to make a judgement.

 

[Foo]

-100 points for using Biker Wario icon.

Seems mostly fine I guess, obviously most of my criticisms would be making it closer to the tier list I posted. I think it's really obvious to most high level players that Ike is decidedly not that good; actually losing at least 4-6 to all of Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco is hugely detrimental to his viability even though he handles almost all other MUs fine (he loses to random characters like Dedede and Yoshi, but again not particularly relevant because there are 0 or 1 players of each of those characters that play at a level we consider). Ally being able to beat something like the ~8th best Fox player in the world who's also rotating into other characters and playing badly isn't really an overwhelmingly strong point on Ike's resume and it is amusing to me how most people didn't rate him that highly pre-Shots Fired. Do note that Ally lost 3-0 to Armada's Fox the week prior to Shots Fired, lol.

idk man, having at least a slightly bad matchup against fox/marth/sheik/falco is pretty much universal, so it's natural that he'd be below them (cept marth, pls stop putting marth so low, guys). Losing a few top tier matchups and some random rogue matchups seem like it'd place him exactly where he is on boiko's list.

 

[Juushichi]

Hm... characters I think Puff beats to various degrees:
Peach, Sheik, Diddy, Samus, Ike, Wario, Ganon, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Bowser, Ness, MK, Olimar, Sonic, Snake, Donkey Kong, Pit

So I mean that's 20/41 characters? Seems healthy enough to me.

 

[steelguttey]

oli vs jiggs is dumb cus olimar should win that matchup bt the only situation where h does is if he has a purple. without a purple he gets his ass whooped. rng decides that matchup and i haaaateeeee iiiit

 

[mimgrim]

As someone who plays against a lot of Marths every time I am able to make it out to the weeklies and loses rather consistently to most of them, I think they are putting Marth in about the right spot.

Can't let the salt get to you.

 

[Strong Badam]

idk man, having at least a slightly bad matchup against fox/marth/sheik/falco is pretty much universal, so it's natural that he'd be below them (cept marth, pls stop putting marth so low, guys). Losing a few top tier matchups and some random rogue matchups seem like it'd place him exactly where he is on boiko's list.

Nah, I don't think "Loses to the 4 most popular characters" warrants a tied for 4th placing. You'll notice that most of the characters I have high up on my list do quite well against the meta; ROB, Falcon, Roy, and Wolf all do quite well or lose to only one of the aforementioned characters to a significant degree. That's why I think all of those (along with Falco/Fox/Sheik) are far more suited to perform in the meta than the tier underneath of Tink/Diddy/Ike.
And yeah even though Marth isn't as great as those characters, his matchup is quite relevant in the meta. It is far more desirable to lose to Jigglypuff/D3 (ala Roy) regardless of their tier placing; losing to Marth is a huge detriment to a character's ability to win tournaments and he's one of the main reasons I have Ike, Wario & G&W as low as I do. It's nice to have ~the best DK in your pocket whenever you run into a threatening Marth.

 

[Juushichi]

I'll add that I think Puff might beat ROB, Falcon, Link, Zero Suit, Zard, Lucas and DDD, but I don't want to put it out there until I gather more information.

I think she might beat ROB and Link for much of the same reasons he beats Samus and Peach. I also feel rather solidly that she beats Lucas now that I think about it, though.

 

[steelguttey]

i cant imagine puff beating rob. boost nair kills her way to early and nair beats everything she does

 

[Boiko]

@ Juushichi You're going to have to explain some of those, because I definitely can't see Puff beating 80 percent of the characters you listed.

To complement Strong Bad's point about the importance of characters having good MU spreads with more tournament relevant characters: if you take a look at my tier list, the only characters Samus has solid, losing match ups to in top tier are ROB and Ike. She's even enough with the spacies, and probably beats Wolf, I'd say she beats Roy, but I can't be too certain yet. I definitely would call it at least even, or close to it. Sheik she loses to very slightly, but it's not detrimental. She has a very good spread across the top tiers, and that allows her to be placed so high.

Her losing match ups are a lot less common: Toon Link, Mewtwo, ZSS, for example. Hell, even Ike and ROB aren't that common.

 

[PlateProp]

As someone who plays against a lot of Marths every time I am able to make it out to the weeklies and loses rather consistently to most of them, I think they are putting Marth in about the right spot.

Can't let the salt get to you.

You dont ever get a chance to play Nike do you

 

[Idostuff]

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nair is even better at comboing now.

the nair off stage didn't kill Ness, then Link has to punish Ness' missed sweetspot with a grounded UP-B to get the kill. How is that not exactly what i just said?

Also i understand that the gify is about showcasing nair's combo potential, since he gets 4 in a row. But in 3.0 it would have just been 2 nairs for the kill.

In regards to Link's recovery, was there any point to changing his UP distance and bomb jump besides "because Melee"?

 

[Juushichi]

@ Juushichi You're going to have to explain some of those, because I definitely can't see Puff beating 80 percent of the characters you listed.

To complement Strong Bad's point about the importance of characters having good MU spreads with more tournament relevant characters: if you take a look at my tier list, the only characters she has solid, losing match ups to in top tier are ROB and Ike. She's even enough with the spacies, and probably beats Wolf, I'd say she beats Roy, but I can't be too certain yet. I definitely would call it at least even, or close to it. Sheik she loses to very slightly, but it's not detrimental. She has a very good spread across the top tiers, and that allows her to be placed so high.

Her losing match ups are a lot less common: Toon Link, Mewtwo, ZSS, for example. Hell, even Ike and ROB aren't that common.

Which ones do you have contention with?

I think her air mobility and general ability to place moves in awkward places smothers a lot of the slower members of cast and she can rather freely go off stage to finish stocks.

 

[mimgrim]

You dont ever get a chance to play Nike do you

I've played Nike before. He always bodies me lol. But I constitute that to him being a much much better player then me.

 

[Soft Serve]

Hm... characters I think Puff beats to various degrees:
Peach, Sheik, Diddy, Samus, Ike, Wario, Ganon, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Bowser, Ness, MK, Olimar, Sonic, Snake, Donkey Kong, Pit

So I mean that's 20/41 characters? Seems healthy enough to me.

This pretty much. There's a ton of characters that she beats in the air still, and her crouch is still a free rest vs a lot of characters if she bairs out a shield grab. I think shiek/puff is even enough in melee, and I think zelda might beat puff, but this is a good summary of her winning mus, and doesn't include that she goes even ish with falco/marth/roy.
Depending on the stage list, the fox/puff mu could be even worse than in melee so that's one thing against her. Falcon being able to grab her crouching helps shift the mu a bit, and when paired with the approach the new age falcons are taking in the mu in melee, plus generally a stage list with bigger stages, that mu could be even.

Puff is probably upper half of the cast, the problem is there is litterally one puff of serious mention.

 

[Boiko]

Peach, Sheik, Samus, Ganon, Zelda, Pikachu, Meta Knight, and Lucas to name a few.