Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I've never heard of Fumbles, do you know where I can find videos of you or him from 3.0?

Juu knows about fumbles. He's good, but gets rekt when he comes to juu's state. That last sentence, is a quote straight from juu.

 

[Oracle]

Fumbles is really good, I played him at bh4. Lots of cool tricks

 

[xFumbles]

Cinci is really trying to make more videos of our matches. We only seem to record at big events, and I only ever get recorded if i get like top 3. Feel like I'm just this hidden boss that no one knows about or something xD but yeah I've been waiting for this new patch for a looong time. I'm putting as much work back into ICs as i did in 3.0 whenevr it hits.

 

[Hylian]

Cinci is really trying to make more videos of our matches. We only seem to record at big events, and I only ever get recorded if i get like top 3. Feel like I'm just this hidden boss that no one knows about or something xD but yeah I've been waiting for this new patch for a looong time. I'm putting as much work back into ICs as i did in 3.0 whenevr it hits.

Yeah waiting for the patch suckkks. I tried playing them mainly today in a tournament and got 3rd, but felt I could have done much better without the bug :/.

 

[941]

Yeah waiting for the patch suckkks. I tried playing them mainly today in a tournament and got 3rd, but felt I could have done much better without the bug :/.

I know how you feel, the bug legitimately cost me a tournament game by causing me to grab the ledge after turning around. Not to say I would have won if that didn't happen, but it definitely took away an opportunity to win.

 

[xFumbles]

honestly if i knew the slide mechanic and the mid stage infinite chain grab werent being taken out....oh hell id break that character so hard with crack walks and brawl chaingrabs theyd be top tier. but im not wasting time with glitches :/ the slide mechanic when not mastered seriously just kills you. like sliding off platforms when you want to grab...do an ariel and just suicide. it also fugs up nana's AI when shes trying to run back to you and it sometimes takes way longer.

 

[Loli Bacon]

I also think Zelda has a lot more potential than people give her credit for. Pretty sure zhime is back to playing her so maybe he'll do some good things.

Been playing her almost exclusively since release and I don't think she's good in the slightest. She lacks a lot of options now after they removed various things. Her gameplan now revolves around forcing whiffs and punishing them really really hard, but she lacks the tools to do that efficiently. Teleshort is much worse than teledash, Din's isn't nearly as good as 3.02 Din's at doing this (3.5 Din's is more of a pseudo-oki tool and combo extender), Love jump removed means she's now combo food, and small changes here and there give her harder matchups across the board (no Brawl sweetspot on fair/bair really hurts)

Honestly, I can't think of a single matchup that is in her favor. And some of her bad matchups are REALLY bad matchups. Think Peach v. Captain Falcon, except without turnips.

 

[Juushichi]

@ xFumbles is really good, yeah. Really fun to play against, too.

He ****ed me up last time we played. I like that he always has something new every time I run into him. I'm a fan... until he has to play against Columbus.

 

[Rizner]

@ xFumbles is really good, yeah. Really fun to play against, too.

He ****ed me up last time we played. I like that he always has something new every time I run into him. I'm a fan... until he has to play against Columbus.

That's when I become a fan.

Who does he lose to in Columbus regularly? Drephen and Hanky Panky?

 

[Juushichi]

At this point... @ Rizner

iirc: he beat Drephen at the latest tournament. In 3.5 people I believe he's lost to: Hanky Panky (Peach), Papa (Ivysaur), Juushichi - me (Mr. Game and Watch), I would guess @Fizzle_Boy (whoever)? He might have lost to SoulPech's Puff once or twice. He might have dropped a set to Master WGS (Bowser) as well.

I have the set lead on him, I would assume Hanky does. Probably Fizzle. Those are the only people with more than one off. Possibly Pech.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What characters would you guys say might be the most underrated/underutilized/underexplored in 3.5? Imo squirtle and Sanic fit these and also IC,s.

Edit: I also think pit fits these descriptions.

I still think sonic probably kinda sucks, but I'm also open to the possibility that I could be wrong. Started incorporating blast attack into my punishes, which helped quite a bit- as did using dash attack as a pseudo kill move and more consistently dthrow tech chasing.

I'll do a bit of labbing with shield stops and stuff. Still think sonic is bad for the amount of work he requires, but there may be some potential there.

 

[GabPR]

I still think sonic probably kinda sucks, but I'm also open to the possibility that I could be wrong. Started incorporating blast attack into my punishes, which helped quite a bit- as did using dash attack as a pseudo kill move and more consistently dthrow tech chasing.

I'll do a bit of labbing with shield stops and stuff. Still think sonic is bad for the amount of work he requires, but there may be some potential there.

Well, its like, your opinion dude

 

[PlateProp]

Has anyone else noticed how 3.5 is getting to a point where every matchup is very volatile?

 

[Ripple]

maybe people should stop playing fast fallers then we wouldn't have this problem

 

[Strong Badam]

weird how extreme character designs result in extreme matchups and gameplay

 

[PlateProp]

weird how extreme character designs result in extreme matchups and gameplay

If extreme is interchangeable with dumb then I would agree

 

[Frost | Odds]

weird how extreme character designs result in extreme matchups and gameplay

smaller bowser when

 

[Strong Badam]

extreme just means... extreme. when you look at a character and nothing about them is "average," they're going to have polarizing interactions with the cast. characters who fall really quickly, weigh a lot, are very light, or fall super slowly, are very fast on the ground, are slow on the ground, huge/tiny etc.

 

[Loli Bacon]

weird how extreme character designs result in extreme matchups and gameplay

This would be fine if characters had a balanced matchup spread, but a lot of the "extreme" characters don't have a lot going for them outside of their gimmick.

 

[Loli Bacon]

extreme just means... extreme. when you look at a character and nothing about them is "average," they're going to have polarizing interactions with the cast. characters who fall really quickly, weigh a lot, are very light, or fall super slowly, are very fast on the ground, are slow on the ground, huge/tiny etc.

Isn't it important to give them tools to augment their gameplan, then? If a character is slow on the ground, shouldn't they have larger hitboxes to combat people getting in on them? If a character has poor mobility, shouldn't they have the ability to zone? If a character has oppressive pressure, shouldn't their defensive options suck?

Some characters are done well (Dedede, Ganon, Lucas) But some characters are not (Ike, Fox, Zelda)

These aren't the only options to balance out characters who are extreme, just some examples.

 

[PlateProp]

Isn't it important to give them tools to augment their gameplan, then? If a character is slow on the ground, shouldn't they have larger hitboxes to combat people getting in on them? If a character has poor mobility, shouldn't they have the ability to zone? If a character has oppressive pressure, shouldn't their defensive options suck?

Some characters are done well (Dedede, Ganon, Lucas) But some characters are not (Ike, Fox, Zelda)

These aren't the only options to balance out characters who are extreme, just some examples.

What's not well done about Ike in your opinion?

 

[howbadisbad]

Isn't it important to give them tools to augment their gameplan, then? If a character is slow on the ground, shouldn't they have larger hitboxes to combat people getting in on them?

I want Luigi's hand to grow 3 sizes become Marth's sword when he fairs

 

[Loli Bacon]

I want Luigi's hand to grow 3 sizes become Marth's sword when he fairs

Luigi has movement, that's not necessary. Don't be dumb. I mean, I understand this as a knee-jerk reaction to what I said, but at least think your response through.

Ike is fine in a vacuum but compared to the rest of the cast he has a bit much.

 

[Binary Clone]

Luigi has movement, that's not necessary. Don't be dumb. I mean, I understand this as a knee-jerk reaction to what I said, but at least think your response through.

Ike is fine in a vacuum but compared to the rest of the cast he has a bit much.

Also, you're not actually telling us anything about Ike. He asked what isn't well done. Do you have any examples of what you think he has too much of, or why it's too much?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Luigi shield pressure is dope though, I think he is the best character for breaking shields besides Bowser.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ike is fine in a vacuum but compared to the rest of the cast he has a bit much.

Oh really. Tell me more.

 

[MLGF]

Vague Ike complaints are annoying and silly, like 2008 casual Brawl Ike complaints.
TBH, if Ike just went a fixed distance on QD and it couldn't be charged on anything, but still JC'd, I think no one would complain about Ike and I don't think it'd hurt good Ike play at all.
The charge gets people who don't know the MU pretty hard though, but it's pretty easy once you understand how it works.

Not that I can see Ike losing his chargeable quick draw though.

 

[Soft Serve]

Flexible burst movement is only okay if Its Luigi/IC's wavedashes.

 

[didds]

Flexible burst movement is only okay if Its Luigi/IC's/Squirtle wavedashes.

there you go buddy

 

[LittleFoxBot]

Remember 2.5 Ike? Those were the days...

 

[MLGF]

2.5 Ike was overnerfed, lol, at least relative to the 2.5 cast.
2.6 Ike was given the nair of gods and he's been fun ever since.

 

[JOE!]

2.5 Ike was overnerfed, lol, at least relative to the 2.5 cast.
2.6 Ike was given the nair of gods and he's been fun ever since.

I beg your pardon?

Spoiler

I should make a new one now that a few tidbits changed....

 

[Soft Serve]

there you go buddy

Nah man Squirtle's mobility is too toxic, only Melee characters should be able to have super long wavedashes.

 

[Loli Bacon]

Nah, I'm just not getting baited into another argument. The point of my post wasn't that Ike is overpowered, and so I'm not going to humor the people who decided to pull that out instead of addressing the main point. That's just asking for trouble. ff you don't think a character is a problem and you're baiting someone who does into expressing their opinion, you're literally just asking for an argument you can try and counter for the sake of arguing. Regardless of my opinions on the matter, you'll be set in your own opinion and it will quickly devolve into "You don't know what you're talking about." from both aspects.

My complaint was with extreme characters not having tools to augment their gameplan, whereas characters who should be extreme have tools that directly go against their gameplan/archetype design and give them tools that don't fit the character.

tl;dr: The balancing philosophy is League of Legends-esque

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

so uh...gtfo?

 

[941]

honestly if i knew the slide mechanic and the mid stage infinite chain grab werent being taken out....oh hell id break that character so hard with crack walks and brawl chaingrabs theyd be top tier. but im not wasting time with glitches :/ the slide mechanic when not mastered seriously just kills you. like sliding off platforms when you want to grab...do an ariel and just suicide. it also fugs up nana's AI when shes trying to run back to you and it sometimes takes way longer.

It sounds like the infinite handoff at the ledge will still work, so that's something.

 

[Binary Clone]

Nah, I'm just not getting baited into another argument. The point of my post wasn't that Ike is overpowered, and so I'm not going to humor the people who decided to pull that out instead of addressing the main point. That's just asking for trouble. ff you don't think a character is a problem and you're baiting someone who does into expressing their opinion, you're literally just asking for an argument you can try and counter for the sake of arguing. Regardless of my opinions on the matter, you'll be set in your own opinion and it will quickly devolve into "You don't know what you're talking about." from both aspects.

My complaint was with extreme characters not having tools to augment their gameplan, whereas characters who should be extreme have tools that directly go against their gameplan/archetype design and give them tools that don't fit the character.

tl;dr: The balancing philosophy is League of Legends-esque

This is a discussion thread. The point is to discuss things like balance and character design.

Saying "x is bad" is useless, that's not a discussion point, that's just an opinion. People are asking you to elaborate on your opinion so that a discussion can be had. We're not baiting you. We're asking you why you have your opinion, so that we can do what this thread is for: talk about the balance. Saying "Squirtle is broke" is not helpful, but if you have 5 well-thought-out reasons why you think Squirtle is broke, well then we have a discussion. Same with you and Ike.

If you think he's badly designed, tell us why. Please. That's what this thread is for.

 

[Loli Bacon]

What you're asking for isn't a discussion, because I've already posted a topic of discussion and it has gone ignored. If you don't agree with my definition of what an extreme should be, discuss that. It shouldn't be about the example I provided in the form of Ike. You're asking what I think is wrong with Ike, not why I don't consider Ike an extreme. There is nothing wrong with Ike because I'm not the developer and I can't tell you if he's working as intended or not.

In regards to Ike specifically, he has slow attacks, range and disjoints, strong movement, and powerful hits. Which of these is not like the other? I'm not saying he's too strong. I'm not saying he's too weak. I'm saying he has tools that the archetype shouldn't.

But this is Tier Speculation, not Balance Discussion. None of this matters.

I think Mewtwo is still really really good.

 

[Binary Clone]

What you're asking for isn't a discussion, because I've already posted a topic of discussion and it has gone ignored.

"It doesn't count unless it's my topic we're discussing."

Please.

If you don't agree with my definition of what an extreme should be, discuss that. It shouldn't be about the example I provided in the form of Ike. You're asking what I think is wrong with Ike, not why I don't consider Ike an extreme. There is nothing wrong with Ike because I'm not the developer and I can't tell you if he's working as intended or not.

Somehow, I think you're missing the point. The intent is assumed to be things like "good design" and "good balance", which means it is, in fact, perfectly possible to have an opinion on how well he works within PM.

In regards to Ike specifically, he has slow attacks, range and disjoints, strong movement, and powerful hits. Which of these is not like the other? I'm not saying he's too strong. I'm not saying he's too weak. I'm saying he has tools that the archetype shouldn't.

Again, you're barely specifying why. If he's not too strong or too weak, what's the problem? Why should a character have to fall into a specific archetype? If they're balanced, why would an archetype matter at all?

I think Mewtwo is still really really good.

Uh... Good for you?

 

[Comeback Kid]

Nair or QDC are the only things people grip about with Ike, so he can't be such a terribly polarizing character. You can have slow attacks but have range and speed to make up for it, I don't see why this is extreme underage pork product.