Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Boo I say

Boo

 

[MagnesD3]

It seems that even though pikachu is viable 3.5 basically took the interesting out of pikachus playstyle..

 

[Frost | Odds]

Regarding the Zard discussion, John Number stopped playing Zard and now has ultimately quit PM.

Damn, really? =[

 

[Boiko]

Damn, really? =[

"I don't think I was clear enough yesterday, but I'm not giving up on the game because I heavily disagree with with 3.5's design choices. I know that's not good enough of a reason for me to quit, but rather to try out different characters, like Sheik. Apparently a lot of people yesterday followed that line of thought too lmao.

But anyway, I have to give up on it because Smash 4 completely mangles any semblance of techskill that I had in that game, regrettably... T__T"

His words after Nebulous. He's just not into it anymore.

 

[DMG]

John Numbers coming out strong with those Johns!

 

[Boiko]

John Numbers coming out strong with those Johns!

We renamed him to "Numbers of Johns."

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

It seems that even though pikachu is viable 3.5 basically took the interesting out of pikachus playstyle..

QaC 1 is better than QaC 2...



and you can still use QaC 1...

 

[didds]

I play pika for the hats and the most playful of bthrows

 

[Oracle]

Zard is still good yall are babies

 

[Deleted member]

this thread needs more tagxy and lots of lube to contain the bleeding

 

[Cubelarooso]

QaC 1 is better than QaC 2...

But QAC 2 is more fun to use and watch.

So why was it the one cut?

 

[Choice Scarf]

Because you could recover on the stage with it or chase someone from one end to the other. It also allowed very easy platform movement, which is probably the most common flashy thing, and that may have given Pika too much in disregarding positional advantage. Less skilled players would also say it was broken because of this, but it was still vulnerable to anticipation (so long active and disjointed hitboxes could easily stuff QAC approaches) and getting hit out of it could make you lose your second jump.

Most of that is still truw for QAC1, but at least the first zip is harder to predict than the second zip, and the range of the first zip is about the same as a dash SHFFL so it was probably left in to let Pika keep some mix-ups and cool tricks. Think of it as the flashiness itself getting nerfed.

I play pika for the hats and the most playful of bthrows

This, plus his "Pika Pika" taunt is top tier.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Think of it as the flashiness itself getting nerfed.

Yeah, I pretty much do. As Magnes said, it's just a change to make Pikachu a less interesting character.

 

[jtm94]

Something about recovery is supposed to be punishable now and recovering on stage shouldn't benefit the one recovering. Recovering on stage should never benefit the one recovering. Most recovery was hit so why should Pika be exempt.

Zard is definitely not bad by any means, lol at people quitting. I disagree with a few design choices, but overall there is no Diddy overlord, just the Master Fox Race.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

In reading the PMDT responses on the Pika boards I only recall them mentioning burst movement, never citing recovery as the issue (this could just be faulty memory...). The "boringness" is actually a very common complaint among a lot of the boards. I guess nobody really realized what the the PMDT meant by trimming the fat.

Also, not to turn this into a nerf melee rant, but I recall someone comparing the QAC nerf as an effort to make characters more like Marth/Sheik/Falcon instead of Fox/Falco/Peach/Ice Climbers from melee. The reason being that anything that makes a character unique is "jank" because we aren't used to it like melee. So now we have characters like MK/ZSS/Pikachu and more who lost a lot of flavor and variety in the name of "jank". Maybe part of it is my lack of understanding, but I feel like we shouldn't right off every unique trait as "jank", because then you might as well have one character.

Maybe certain attributes were too good, but I would like uniqueness to be apart of this game. Things like Peach's float probably would have felt like "jank" at the time, but can be dealt with and creates interesting counterplay. I just hope that this war on "jank" doesn't steal all the fun things that characters can do they set them apart.

 

[steelguttey]

ight im actually mad that CHARIZARD players are complaining at least they can ****ing juggle still

 

[Cubelarooso]

I feel like this is going off-topic (as is wont), and would be better suited for that other thread on the front page.
Tier wise, any remaining Pikachus will probably do as well as any other character against the reestablished Melee top tier (we all know who).

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Starting to feel like Chillin is actually the best Wolf out there now, he's even doing all the Flash optimization that @1FD was on about. Man's shortens and angles are on point. Dude finishes with Side-B so often I legit forgot he had other kill moves.

 

[JOE!]

ight im actually mad that CHARIZARD players are complaining at least they can ****ing juggle still

I stand by that overall Zard is both still good and may be slightly better off than he was once the dust settles

 

[Tagxy]

this thread needs more tagxy and lots of lube to contain the bleeding

Summoned for this? Guess we know the grinch of the evolution tree.

Pikachu is undoubtedly low or bottom tier. He's benefited in the past from having some of the best players use him, but theyve all seemingly quit. Recoveries are still way to good for him to take advantage of his supposed strength, melee recoveries sat on the border of what allowed pikachu to use the tools he has in this game and anything better then that is too good.

QAC can't be done out of the second zip anymore, so it's back to relying on good ol' fundamentals in neutral.

QAC was always poor in neutral dude, you even said so yourself.

Something about recovery is supposed to be punishable now and recovering on stage shouldn't benefit the one recovering. Recovering on stage should never benefit the one recovering. Most recovery was hit so why should Pika be exempt.

Recovering onstage with QAC was extremely punishable to anyone with moderate skill in the MU. Its incredibly easy to react to, and to beat it literally only requires the ability to see and a hitbox. Once again there was 6 years of previous metagame info that agrees with this. Id gladly demonstrate this against a pikachu player of any skill level.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I really don't get how giving QAC the Mewtwo treatment wouldn't have been a perfectly acceptable recovery nerf on a character that has historically had a very good recovery.

 

[jtm94]

Something something Burst Movement..... dead horse.

Pikachu is pretty meh. Might have gotten better or worse somehow. I'm just here to speculate, who knows.

Sonic's recovery got clipped hardest.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Sonic's recovery got clipped hardest.

I wish I could give f***s but I have an irrational hatred of that ... thing

So I'm just going to sit in this corner and try not to be too happy about Sonic possibly sucking while y'all can have an actual productive conversation about him if you want

 

[Foo]

@ Tagxy Every time you talk about QAC2 cancel, you say it was completely worthless in 3.02. Bad in neutral, bad for recovery, etc. If it was really that bad, surely removing it isn't a big nerf to pikachu, let alone one big enough to bring pika from mid tier to bottom tier a midst just about every other character getting nerfs.

 

[Rizner]

I feel like this thread has been filled with 'I don't play my character any more for a reason that isn't their current viability' which is always responded to with 'but they aren't even bad compared to everyone else'

Seems like a bad cycle, and people no longer maining a character because they don't enjoy them or are playing another game or are busy with other things doesn't really change a characters viability.

 

[didds]

So are all the throw release points fixed now? Did Pika get the old Uthrow back?

edit: nevermind, i looked it up like a capable young man should

 

[Choice Scarf]

So are all the throw release points fixed now? Did Pika get the old Uthrow back?

edit: nevermind, i looked it up like a capable young man should

Pretty happy that the chaingrabs feel more legit now

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

altho now that sonic's recovery is nerfed it makes it all the more satisfying when you hit someone who is trying to edgeguard you offstage like siiiiiiiiiiiike u were tryna edgeguard me but nah bish I'm still here and I aint in a special fall

that being said sanic's recovery still sucks

 

[Psyant]

So are all the throw release points fixed now? Did Pika get the old Uthrow back?

edit: nevermind, i looked it up like a capable young man should

It's not exactly the same as Melee, base knockback of uthrow is still higher than in Melee from what I can tell as it chaingrabs Fox at earlier %s in PM rather than the later %s in Melee. Regardless, it's still awesome and it 0-death's Wolf if he doesn't DI off stage or to a platform, so we have that going of us, which is nice.

 

[Ripple]

pikachu can regrab spacies at 0% in melee so that BKB thing is most likely false

 

[MagnesD3]

Starting to feel like Chillin is actually the best Wolf out there now, he's even doing all the Flash optimization that @1FD was on about. Man's shortens and angles are on point. Dude finishes with Side-B so often I legit forgot he had other kill moves.

I'd agree for sure but one thing that bothers me is I've never seem him play lame with the character. If he learned to combine that with his insane offense he would be even more deadly than he already is IMO.

 

[standardtoaster]

pika uthrow KB stats match melee exactly. idk what you're talking about

 

[MLGF]

I wish I could give f***s but I have an irrational hatred of that ... thing

So I'm just going to sit in this corner and try not to be too happy about Sonic possibly sucking while y'all can have an actual productive conversation about him if you want

I've been playing around with him and he still seems solid, not overwhelming, but clearly strong.
Hard making a character that fast not janky, but I think his jank level has been notched down a couple million levels.

 

[jtm94]

Sonic's on stage game is still stupid. Nothing really changed besides no pivot hitbox on downb. Uair isn't strong as the dickens anymore, I almost feel bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

New and improved Odds Tire Lust, smacking of fresh bias, speculation, BS, and more than likely one too many drinks.

EDIT: SELLOUT TO POPULAR OPINION: THE EDITION: THE EDIT

This is harder than ever, which I chalk up to excellent work by the PMDT.

Fox Tier:

Not Fox Tier:

Probably Quite Viable Tier:

Why Bother Tier:




This list reflects only my feelings at this exact moment SELLING OUT, and not necessarily any sort of fact - particularly because i still haven't had a chance to play with or against all these yet.

Edit: I feel like I should also mention that as far as my perceptions go, the gap between Probably Quite Viable Tier and Why Bother Tier is signficantly larger than the others. I was probably wrong about literally every single one of these placements in any case - particularly D3 through Pit.

 

[SpiderMad]

Nah that lists a little screwy

 

[Jacob29]

I think you put Peach way too low.

and Ganon a bit too high.

 

[Soft Serve]

Samus is booty
other than samus and Squirtle placements, and fox having his own tier, I don't really disagree with anything else generally speaking

Ganon is too high too imo, he still is bad

 

[Frost | Odds]

oh god what have I done

 

[SpiderMad]

Neon thinks Squirtle is high tier or something right